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Silver Crusade 2/5

Sammy T wrote:
The WHW's hair does the grappling and she remains grapple condition-free per the ability.

How so? Wouldn't they have to take the -20 for that?

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
David Bowles wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
The WHW's hair does the grappling and she remains grapple condition-free per the ability.
How so? Wouldn't they have to take the -20 for that?
White Hair Witch Archetype wrote:
White Hair (Su): At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

5/5

Oh yeah, I usually use -1 for CMB for size. (pulling this stuff from memory, not a character sheet)

The +2 from furious not counting toward grapple is a surprise to me.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Ah. That ability is pretty impressive then, I'd say. NPCs with the grab ability have to take -20 to pull this off. It's just the damage is not incredible as our master grappler gym teacher showed.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Kyle Baird wrote:
The +2 from furious not counting toward grapple is a surprise to me.

I seem to recall that if your maneuver comes as a free rider on an attack (like with grab, or shield slam, or some such ability), then you get to count the grapple as being performed with the same weapon instead of weaponless. Don't remember if that was in the FAQ Blog or clarified thereafter, though...

5/5

Jiggy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
The +2 from furious not counting toward grapple is a surprise to me.
I seem to recall that if your maneuver comes as a free rider on an attack (like with grab, or shield slam, or some such ability), then you get to count the grapple as being performed with the same weapon instead of weaponless. Don't remember if that was in the FAQ Blog or clarified thereafter, though...

At +29 or 30 or whatever, it's starting to get moot. The only time I really have to do the math is when he drinks his 'make goblin big' potion and can use his grab attack on huge creatures. Large or less usually don't have a CMD much more than 30.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
The +2 from furious not counting toward grapple is a surprise to me.

It came as a surprise to me as well.

Here is the primary blog post regarding the issue.

There is also a post from SKR (I believe) stating directly that it does not work, but I am having digging it up with search.

5/5

SKR Blog wrote:

"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver"

I guess I should ETV with this one. I would argue that a "bite" natural weapon with the grab ability is not incidental to the grapple check.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

I can appreciate your position. I am pretty firmly in the camp of not seeing why augmentation to unarmed strikes should not also benefit attempts to grapple, but one of the Devs (again, pretty confident it was SKR) debunked that from working in a post. I stumbled across it about a year ago when working on a tetori monk build, but I can't find the thing for the life of me now.

Perhaps an informed forum bro could swoop in with an assist and point us to it?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Lormyr wrote:

I can appreciate your position. I am pretty firmly in the camp of not seeing why augmentation to unarmed strikes should not also benefit attempts to grapple, but one of the Devs (again, pretty confident it was SKR) debunked that from working in a post. I stumbled across it about a year ago when working on a tetori monk build, but I can't find the thing for the life of me now.

Perhaps an informed forum bro could swoop in with an assist and point us to it?

For the "grapples don't use unarmed strikes" part, the post was from the Pathfinder Design Team account. Shouldn't take long to search their post history for it, as few posts as they make.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Thank you Jiggy! Memory was off on a couple of points there. It would certainly help my search efforts had I been looking under the right area, huh?

Here you go Kyle.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Bruno too slow to respond because Bruno prepping King of the Storval Steps at work. Shhhhh.

Bruno concur: Size bonus to hit cancels out size penalty to CMB.

Bruno avoid using AoMF bonuses on CMB because of threads mentioned.

5/5

Lormyr wrote:

Thank you Jiggy! Memory was off on a couple of points there. It would certainly help my search efforts had I been looking under the right area, huh?

Here you go Kyle.

Yeah I just saw that too. Strange ruling, essentially stating that combat maneuvers aren't attack rolls.

Guess I'm selling off Garble's AoMF and getting something different.

4/5

pH unbalanced wrote:

Are we *sure* the Grapple puts the opponent adjacent for a WHW? Because in that case, what does the "Pull" ability even do?

Pull wrote:
Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a free[sic] action.
I'm not an expert on the grapple rules by any means, but from the existence of that ability, I would infer that the WHW and the opponent are not automatically adjacent.

Although I know whats RAW, I think this should get looked at in Pathfinder unchained. Not just for the White haired witch but for any creatures that have a reach grapple ability. It seems hokey the things a player/gm can do with the whole 'move them to an adjacent square' bit.

In this case a 12th Lvl WHW could move a grappled character 15 feet closer to them. That creature would provoke AoA against any characters in the pull area (which by the way is not defined in the rules).

Silver Crusade 4/5

Bruno advise simply swapping out AoMF enchants. Bruno has Holy Vicious AoMF for extra sacredness on constricts and grapples-to-damage.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bruno Breakbone wrote:
Bruno concur: Size bonus to hit cancels out size penalty to CMB.

No, you use only one adjustment or the other, depending on whether you're doing a normal attack or a maneuver.

1) If they wanted you to end up at a net +0 every time you do a maneuver, they'd have just written a single line to the effect of "your size modifier does not apply to combat maneuvers" instead of listing out a string of modifiers for each size.

2) The CRB lists the formula for an attack roll as including "size modifier" but the formula for CMB as including "special size modifier" and NOT including you normal size modifier.

3) Do the math on like every non-medium creature ever. They're not applying both adjustments to a net zero.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

Kyle Baird wrote:

Yeah I just saw that too. Strange ruling, essentially stating that combat maneuvers aren't attack rolls.

Guess I'm selling off Garble's AoMF and getting something different.

That was my exact thought as well when I read it. It is pretty much a direct contradiction to maneuvers being attack rolls. It doesn't even make much sense to me as a ruling specifically to address game balance, as it's not terribly difficult to get a grapple bonus in the 40's plus by 12th level if you devote to it.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Thank you Jiggy! Memory was off on a couple of points there. It would certainly help my search efforts had I been looking under the right area, huh?

Here you go Kyle.

Yeah I just saw that too. Strange ruling, essentially stating that combat maneuvers aren't attack rolls.

Guess I'm selling off Garble's AoMF and getting something different.

Out of curiosity...

What is your opinion from that as to whether or not an AoMF enhancement bonus would apply to an unarmed attempt to Trip or Disarm?

The distinction being that (unlike a grapple) those are maneuvers that can be substituted for attacks, and for which (if you were using a weapon with the trip property) you could use a weapon's enhancement bonus.

Because that feels like the distinction that they are making, but that could just be me.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Meh. Bruno too handsome and too beautiful to be small-sized, so he never grapple while tiny like Garble.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

pH unbalanced wrote:

Out of curiosity...

What is your opinion from that as to whether or not an AoMF enhancement bonus would apply to an unarmed attempt to Trip or Disarm?

The distinction being that (unlike a grapple) those are maneuvers that can be substituted for attacks, and for which (if you were using a weapon with the trip property) you could use a weapon's enhancement bonus.

Because that feels like the distinction that they are making, but that could just be me.

Note that the bolded part is not necessary; disarm, sunder and trip maneuvers use your weapon by default and therefore gain their bonuses (enhancement, Weapon Focus, etc), even if you're not using a disarm weapon or trip weapon.

And since (per the FAQ Blog that I think someone linked earlier) your unarmed strikes count as a weapon, any maneuver that uses a weapon (such as disarm, sunder and trip) can use bonuses to your unarmed strikes.

5/5

You should get enhancement bonuses to attack rolls that use a weapon or object to perform the maneuver. Not sure why it needs to be more complicated than that.

If I want to use a +1 shovel to perform a dirty trick, I should get a +1 bonus.

Dumb.

Maybe I'll just do ghost touch instead and skip ghost rager.

5/5

Jiggy wrote:
And since (per the FAQ Blog that I think someone linked earlier) your unarmed strikes count as a weapon, any maneuver that uses a weapon (such as disarm, sunder and trip) can use bonuses to your unarmed strikes.

A wolf AC wearing an AoMF gets a bonus to it's trip attack, but an AC with grab doesn't get one to grapple. Makes perfect sense... whatever.

Maybe I'll take anchoring for the laughs.

4/5 ****

Kyle Baird wrote:


If I want to use a +1 shovel to perform a dirty trick, I should get a +1 bonus.

Well...

SKR wrote:
Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.

Source

Grand Lodge 4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
SKR Blog wrote:

"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver"

I guess I should ETV with this one. I would argue that a "bite" natural weapon with the grab ability is not incidental to the grapple check.

Question for clarification: If you are grabbing with a bite, how do the Gloves of the Skilled Maneuver, which presumably add their bonus to the appropriate combat maneuver made with your hands, add to a bite grapple?

4/5 ****

kinevon wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
SKR Blog wrote:

"Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver"

I guess I should ETV with this one. I would argue that a "bite" natural weapon with the grab ability is not incidental to the grapple check.
Question for clarification: If you are grabbing with a bite, how do the Gloves of the Skilled Maneuver, which presumably add their bonus to the appropriate combat maneuver made with your hands, add to a bite grapple?

Because the item has no such restriction.

2/5

Finlanderboy wrote:

I think it is a dangerous archetype to play.

You use str to hit. Then if you do grapple it gets placed next to you per grapple rules. So the creature can pound on you. So they should have stats in dex and con to take hits. The BAB on the witch is poor so you may miss a whole lot.

The issues I have are people playing it that do not know the rules. They allow int to hit the first attack, they also have the creature grapple where the attack hit instead of pulled next to the witch.

If this is the case then the Mancatcher weapon can't function since it has Reach correct? It can't move the grappled creature adjacent so the grapple automatically fails? The Core grapple rules were printed before there were ways for players to grapple at range like the WHW, mancatcher or strangling hair spell.

The WHW has its own rules for grappling, such as ignoring the size of the opponent when grabbing and constricting as opposed to only a size smaller like the way the grab & constrict abilities usually work. The WHW wouldn't get the Pull class ability if it automatically pulled the target adjacent when it grabbed at 10+ feet out. Giving a squishy caster a ranged grapple and then saying it has to pull its target adjacent is completely counter-intuitive to the archetype. The point of the archetype is to stick a foe in place where it can't get to you, while you squeeze the life out of it.

2/5

Okay we are playing the Jade regent Path, and my Plumekith Zen Archer was splattered at 3rd lvl by a 9d6 Unholy Blight from the BBEG of the 1st book. So I come up with my WHW build for a replacement at lvl4. One of the 1st things we fight (at lvl 4) is a Shark Eating Crab with 15ft reach that dealt 85 dmg to the sylvan sorc's animal companion in 1 round, trifurcating it. So I decide to go heavy in order to survive.

Taking the note above into consideration, and using common sense (yes even though this is pathfinder) below is what I am now having changed Viscous Stomp to Weapon Finesse.

White-Haired-Witch4/Kensai Magus4/Brawler Fighter2: (BAB +7):

Str 13
Dex 18 (+1 Lvl, +2 Enh)
Con 14 (+2 Enh)
Int 22 (+2 Enh)
Wis 8 (+1 Lvl)
Cha 7

Feats(+9Grapple): 1IUS/Run(Elf)/Alertness(Familiar)/3IG(+2G)/WF-Hair(Kensai1+1G)/5Feral Combat Training(Hair)/Final Embrace(Fighter1+4G)/7Combat Reflexes/GG(Fighter2+2G)/9Weapon Finesse

Traits: Heirloom Weapon-Armor Spikes (+2 Grapple), Magical Knack

Gear(+8 Grapple):
+1 Deathless Haramaki of Brawling (+2 Grapple)
w/+2 Guardian Armor Spikes (+2 trait to Grapple) MW Trans then enchanted
Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver (+2 comp to Grapple)
Dusty Rose Ioune in Wayfinder (+2 insight to Grapple)
Monk's Robe (w/FCT Changes base hair dmg from d4 to d8)
Demonspike Pauldrons (changes Base AS dmg to 1d8+2+1d2 Bleed)
Clear Spindle in WF
Scizore (+1 Shield bonus when wielded but not used)
Mock Full Plate Armor
+2 Headband of Int (Ling)
+2 Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Con)
Cracked Vib Pur Prism Ioune X2 in WF (with lead blades in them)
+2 Ring of Protection
Amber Spindle Ioune X2 in WF
Pearl of Power Lvl 1 X3
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend in SL wrist Sheath
Wand of Lead Blades in SL wrist Sheath
Winged Boots
Jingasa of the FS

AC with Mage Armor and Shield up=30/22T/22FF
Attack +15 (7BAB+4Dex+2Br+1WF+1Enh)
Grapple +33
Armor Spike Dmg 1d8+2+1d2 Bleed
Hair Dmg 1d8+12 (Int mod 6x1.5=9+2Br+1Enh)

Abilities(+3 to Grapple):
King Crab Familiar (+2 Grapple)
Spells
White Hair
Arcane Pool (+1 Enh to Grapple)
Magus Arcana
Canny Defense (+4 to Dex for AC)
Perfect Strike

So Buffed, combat goes like this: (Using MA/Sh/LeadBlades)

Round 1: (delay until they come within reach Provoking AoO)
AoO, Attack +14 for 2d6+11 when leaving space at 10' out
Free, Grapple +32, Constricting for 2d6+11 at 10'
Swift, Use Arcane Pool for +1 on hair
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin, Constricting for 2d6+12 at 10'
Free, 5ft step Adjacent
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin&Constrict for 4d6+14+1d2 Bleed

Round 2:
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Dmg&Constrict for 8d6+28+2d2 Bleed
Free, Spend Arcane Pool Point for max Base Hair Dmg (4d6+52+2d2 Bleed)
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin&Constrict for 4d6+14+1d2 Bleed

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Vertexx69 wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:

I think it is a dangerous archetype to play.

You use str to hit. Then if you do grapple it gets placed next to you per grapple rules. So the creature can pound on you. So they should have stats in dex and con to take hits. The BAB on the witch is poor so you may miss a whole lot.

The issues I have are people playing it that do not know the rules. They allow int to hit the first attack, they also have the creature grapple where the attack hit instead of pulled next to the witch.

If this is the case then the Mancatcher weapon can't function since it has Reach correct? It can't move the grappled creature adjacent so the grapple automatically fails? The Core grapple rules were printed before there were ways for players to grapple at range like the WHW, mancatcher or strangling hair spell.

huh? Mancatcher has been in game since D&D 2.0 and enlarge person has always granted extra reach.

Vertexx69 wrote:
The WHW has its own rules for grappling, such as ignoring the size of the opponent when grabbing and constricting as opposed to only a size smaller like the way the grab & constrict abilities usually work.

again huh?

It grants you pull and constrict as per the monster abilities. The monster abilities specify what size they work on. And there is nothing in there that lets you ignore the usual grapple limits on size. Where do you get the idea that the WHW ignores those rules but gets the rest of the ability?

Vertexx69 wrote:
The WHW wouldn't get the Pull class ability if it automatically pulled the target adjacent when it grabbed at 10+ feet out. Giving a squishy caster a ranged grapple and then saying it has to pull its target adjacent is completely counter-intuitive to the archetype. The point of the archetype is to stick a foe in place where it can't get to you, while you squeeze the life out of it.

Except that the pull works even if you fail to grapple. And if that were the intent of the archtype, they needed to include language that overwrote grapple. Which explicitly moves the target adjacent to you.

Actually the man catcher is really weird, because it has the language:
"success means you and the target are grappled, but you do not move into the same space." But grapple doesn't move you into the same space, it moves you adjacent.

But you could argue that the man catchers limitations (one size only, only move or damage allowed) and the "you do not move into the same space" language, implies that the mancatcher *is* meant to hold the target grappled at range.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Vertexx69 wrote:


Round 1: (delay until they come within reach Provoking AoO)
AoO, Attack +14 for 2d6+11 when leaving space at 10' out
Free, Grapple +32, Constricting for 2d6+11 at 10'
Swift, Use Arcane Pool for +1 on hair
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin, Constricting for 2d6+12 at 10'
Free, 5ft step Adjacent
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin&Constrict for 4d6+14+1d2 Bleed

Round 2:
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Dmg&Constrict for 8d6+28+2d2 Bleed
Free, Spend Arcane Pool Point for max Base Hair Dmg (4d6+52+2d2 Bleed)
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin&Constrict for 4d6+14+1d2 Bleed

I don't think that actually works. It's a little unclear where your AoO ends and your turn begins. Also, Kensai say you get to pick a single martial or exotic weapon as your favored weapon. Does a natural attack count for that? Also, you seem to be using something that lets you double your damage when you are within 5 feet? which ability is that, and how are you using lead blades to take your hair from 1d3 to 2d6?

Round 1: (delay until they come within reach Provoking AoO)
AoO, Attack +14 for 2d6+11 when leaving space at 10' out
Free, Grapple +32
Swift, Constricting for 2d6+11 at 10' (see errata higher in this thread.)
Enemy is moved adjacent.

Enemy finishes his actions.

Swift, Use Arcane Pool for +1 on hair already used your swift for this round in your AoO
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin,
Swift Constricting for 2d6+12 at 10' already used your swift for this round in your AoO
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin
&Constrict for 4d6+14+1d2 Bleed already used your swift for this round in your AoO

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
And since (per the FAQ Blog that I think someone linked earlier) your unarmed strikes count as a weapon, any maneuver that uses a weapon (such as disarm, sunder and trip) can use bonuses to your unarmed strikes.

A wolf AC wearing an AoMF gets a bonus to it's trip attack, but an AC with grab doesn't get one to grapple. Makes perfect sense... whatever.

Maybe I'll take anchoring for the laughs.

I still don't think that the ruling linked here precludes grab. I think it was intended to apply simply to someone making a vanilla, non-grabby grapple check (which AoMF doesn't boost).

I still think there hasn't been anything which prevents AoMF from applying to Grab.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Grab is a free grapple attempt. If the AoMF doesn't apply to grapple, then it doesn't apply to grab, either.

4/5 ****

David Bowles wrote:
Grab is a free grapple attempt. If the AoMF doesn't apply to grapple, then it doesn't apply to grab, either.
SKR wrote:
Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.

In the case of Grab, the GM is free to rule that weapon bonuses from the initial attack should be added. They could of course not as well.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

no. An amulet of might fists "grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons." You make a combat maneuver to grapple.

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Pirate Rob wrote:
They could of course not as well.

AND IT WILL BE THE LAST RULING THEY EVER MAKE!

2/5

FLite wrote:
I don't think that actually works. It's a little unclear where your AoO ends and your turn begins. Also, Kensai say you get to pick a single martial or exotic weapon as your favored weapon. Does a natural attack count for that?

Natural Weapons count as Light weapons, and whether they are simple/martial/exotic (they have to count as one of them) the Kensai has it covered.

FLite wrote:
Also, you seem to be using something that lets you double your damage when you are within 5 feet?

Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (1d6) on a successful grapple attack.

Demonspike pauldrons act as +2 armor spikes and also deal 1d2 bleed damage on a successful grapple attack or melee attack made with the pauldrons. If these pauldrons are worn with normal armor spikes, increase the damage done by the armor spikes to 1d6 (Small) or 1d8
(Medium).
FLite wrote:
which ability is that, and how are you using lead blades to take your hair from 1d3 to 2d6?

With Feral Combat Training (any effect that augments an unarmed strike can be applied to my hair)and the Monk's Robe, my hair gains the base dmg of a 4th lvl Monk (1d8), (and per Monk his unarmed strike is considered both natural and manufactured (ie Melee weapon) for spell effects.

Lead Blades Cast from a Cracked Purple Prism Ioune Stone, increases the dmg of all melee weapons on my person by one step. (ie the hair/armor spikes/demonspike pauldrons) raising them from 1d8/1d6/1d8+2+1d2 to 2d6/1d8/3d6

FLite wrote:

Round 1: (delay until they come within reach Provoking AoO)

AoO, Attack +14 for 2d6+11 when leaving space at 10' out
Free, Grapple +32
Swift, Constricting for 2d6+11 at 10' (see errata higher in this thread.)
Enemy is moved adjacent.

Except that I'm not using the WHW constrict (swift) at all, I'm using the Final Embrace Constrict, which is still not its own action but an (Ex) Special that's part of every grapple action, per universal monster rules (Beastiary pg298-299). So none of my constricts use the 1 swift action I get for the round.

And the way the the Core/Ult Equip describe my "Grapple Attack" in armor spikes/demonspike pauldrons, leads me to the conclusion that a CMB roll IS an attack roll and therefore gets the Weapon Focus and Enhancement bonuses to its modifier and is an automiss on a nat1 and auto hit on nat20.

I am trying to do this legally, so in true Order of Operation Methodology, it has to look like this?

During Round 1: (Ready until they move through my reach Provoking AoO)
They move up to swing provoking, which sets off my readied action.
Swift, Use Arcane Pool for +1 on hair
AoO, Attack +15 for 2d6+12 when leaving space at 10' out
Free, Grapple +33, pulling Adjacent & Constricting for 5d6+14+1d2 Bleed
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin & Constrict for 5d6+14+1d2 Bleed

Pinning opponent precludes them using a melee attack on me at this point correct? And having readied, my initiative is now right after his yes?

During Round 2: (opponent is still pinned so no melee attack?)
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Dmg&Constrict for 10d6+28+2d2 Bleed
Swift, Spend Arcane Pool Point for max Base Hair Dmg (6d6+52+2d2 Bleed)
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin & Constrict for 5d6+14+1d2 Bleed

I think using all the correct rules with the only tiny gray area using Kensai arcane pool on hair (which I think logically inferred correctly-again I know common sense has no place in pathfinder).

Is this how it would work properly?

2/5

Went back and looked through Universal monster rules and found that its not constrict that has a size restriction, its grab (same size as creature making grab). The WHW doesn't get the Grab ability, they get White hair.

White Hair (Su): At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the
hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

This does not have a size restriction like grab. So I go back to grapple where it says you can start a grapple on a creature up to 1 size larger than you. So when enlarged a WHW can grapple up to huge sized beasties?

3/5

Vertexx69 wrote:
The point of the archetype is to stick a foe in place where it can't get to you, while you squeeze the life out of it.

By "The point" you mean. What you think the rules were meant to. Not what they actually read.

Core rulebook on grapple wrote:


If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

SO unless a player can show me how the witch's specific rules state they do not follow the core rules above. Well at my table I will run as written, and follow the rules.

I honestly feel like you try to work the rules in your favor when it suits you.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Finlanderboy wrote:
Core rulebook on grapple wrote:


If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
SO unless a player can show me how the witch's specific rules state they do not follow the core rules above. Well at my table I will run as written, and follow the rules.

I agree that a WHW must move the creature it is grappling to be adjacent. The rules are clear on that.

Can y'all tell if there is anything requiring that the WHW *remain* adjacent to maintain the grapple? Since she does not gain the grappled condition, she should still be able to move freely, yes? And as long as she stays within her hair's reach, there's no reason she can't maintain the grapple, is there?

Assuming that's allowed, the next question would be whether successfully maintaining the grapple triggers another "move the grappled creature adjacent". The wording's a little wonky and (IMO) doesn't quite scan either way, so I think that would be open to interpretation.

3/5

pH unbalanced wrote:

Can y'all tell if there is anything requiring that the WHW *remain* adjacent to maintain the grapple? Since she does not gain the grappled condition, she should still be able to move freely, yes? And as long as she stays within her hair's reach, there's no reason she can't maintain the grapple, is there?

Assuming that's allowed, the next question would be whether successfully maintaining the grapple triggers another "move the grappled creature adjacent". The wording's a little wonky and (IMO) doesn't quite scan either way, so I think that would be open to interpretation.

That is up for debate. I would allow the witch to move once they grappled, but maintaining would put it next to the witch again.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Vertexx69 wrote:

lots of stuff.

That makes a lot more sense now that I see that you spent ~30,000 to do that.

I'm not entirely sure that the the final embrace feat is kosher, since you don't have a creature type that gives you constrict, you have a class. (and you can't be a white haired naga or serpent folk, I believe, since they don't have hair...) But I defer to Nefreet on that since he knows that part of the system better than I do.

I assume you are having lead blades cast into the ioun stone by paying someone? or via a wand and making UMD checks between combat?

Vertexx69 wrote:


I am trying to do this legally, so in true Order of Operation Methodology, it has to look like this?

Well, you forgot:

Round 0: cast lead blades.

Vertexx69 wrote:


During Round 1: (Ready until they move through my reach Provoking AoO)
They move up to swing provoking, which sets off my readied action.
Swift, Use Arcane Pool for +1 on hair
AoO, Attack +15 for 2d6+12 when leaving space at 10' out
Free, Grapple +33, pulling Adjacent & Constricting for 5d6+14+1d2 Bleed
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin & Constrict for 5d6+14+1d2 Bleed

Yup, ready works better here.

I would want to see the math on that +33 grapple.

Where did the extra 1d6 come from? I thought you said 4d6.

Vertexx69 wrote:


Pinning opponent precludes them using a melee attack on me at this point correct? And having readied, my initiative is now right after his yes?

no, having delayed your initiative would come right after his. Ready means yours comes right before his. Meaning he gets to act, as do all his friends and your friends, then you. However, the only action he can take is to try to break your grapple, which should be really, really hard to do. (Or ridiculously easy, depending on what he has. Remember, for only a little more than you spent to do all this, he can have a ring of freedom of movement that makes all of this irrelivant...)

If he does break your grapple (nat 20's do happen!) he then has a standard to hit you.

Vertexx69 wrote:

During Round 2: (opponent is still pinned so no melee attack?)
Move, Maintain Grapple +38 to Dmg&Constrict for 10d6+28+2d2 Bleed
Swift, Spend Arcane Pool Point for max Base Hair Dmg (6d6+52+2d2 Bleed)
Standard, Maintain Grapple +38 to Pin & Constrict for 5d6+14+1d2 Bleed

reminder, bleed damage doesn't stack. you roll all the bleed damage they take that round and take the highest.

by the way, if you still have them pinned, why not tie them up as your first action (with constrict). Then you don't have to keep pinning them every round, and you don't risk rolling a one or them rolling a 20 to break free?

Vertexx69 wrote:


I think using all the correct rules with the only tiny gray area using Kensai arcane pool on hair (which I think logically inferred correctly-again I know common sense has no place in pathfinder).

Is this how it would work properly?

Actually, rereading it I think you are right. I was reading the kensai weapon proficiency "A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice." as meaning that a kensai's WoC had to be martial or exotic, but below it says that the weapon can be any type, so I guess that's legit.

It is very powerful against any opponent it works against, and useless against any opponent it doesn't work against. (Note that while you can grapple large creatures, they won't provoke, since they will be able to hit you from 10 feet away.) But I don't really see it being more unbalanced than (for example) a similarly equipped Tetori monk or Maneuver Master.

Especially once you get to "Tie Up" at which point the amount of damage is largely irrelevant, since you can leave him there and kill him at your leisure.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Oh, I figured out the extra 1d6. you are saying that you get your armor spikes *and* demonspike pauldrons. But the demonspike pauldrons say "treat these as armor spikes, but if you wear these and armor spikes, treat the total damage as 1d8". You don't get to attack with the spikes and the pauldrons.

2/5

FLite wrote:
Oh, I figured out the extra 1d6. you are saying that you get your armor spikes *and* demonspike pauldrons. But the demonspike pauldrons say "treat these as armor spikes, but if you wear these and armor spikes, treat the total damage as 1d8". You don't get to attack with the spikes and the pauldrons.

The lead blades make the armor spikes large category dmg, Demonspike Pauldrons increase the size of small armor spike dmg to 1d6, medium armor spikes to 1d8, large Armor spikes to 2d6. Lead bladed demonspike pauldrons And armor spikes make +3d6+2+1d2 Bleed dmg. This Bleed dmg is not a bleed effect, just bleed dmg that bypasses DR and doesn't carry over to the next round.

Example:
Boar Style - deal +2d6 Bleed DAMAGE when you hit with 2 or more unarmed strikes in a round.

Boar Shred - Deal 1d6 bleed EFFECT at the start of each turn after shredding with boar style.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

No, you are applying lead blades twice there.

medium armor spikes: Pauldron upgrades them to 1d8, lead blades upgrades them to 2d6. (or in the other order.)

You don't get to say:
medium armor spikes: lead blades upgrades them to 1d8, then Pauldron upgrades them to 2d6, then lead blades upgrades them to 3d6. (or in the other order.)

Think about it this way:
Medium armor spikes + lead blades = large armor spikes = 1d8
Medium pauldron + lead blades = large pauldron = 1d8

From the pauldron, large pauldron + large spikes = 2d6 damage.

(Actually, a really, really anal GM would rule that there is no damage change for large pauldrons, since the item text just lists damage change for small and medium and doesn't say it is a size increase, but that would be really silly and punative.)

Re: bleed damage.

No, that is not how it works.

Quote:
Bleed: A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.

No one is sure how Boar Style works, or why it is written the way it is, including James Jacobs

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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Yeah, so far I have found 3 different interpretations of how boar style works, and if I go on looking, I will find more I am sure.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Vertexx69 wrote:
So I go back to grapple where it says you can start a grapple on a creature up to 1 size larger than you. So when enlarged a WHW can grapple up to huge sized beasties?

Grapple is not size restricted in any way (except for the Grab special ability, which requires your size or smaller). Only Bull Rush, Trip, and Overrun are.

FLite wrote:
Yeah, so far I have found 3 different interpretations of how boar style works, and if I go on looking, I will find more I am sure.

I'm still convinced that the person who wrote Boar Style had no idea how Bleed damage actually works.

3/5

Also worth mentioning that if you use a manufactured weapon with natural weapons, the natural weapons become secondary weapons:

PRD wrote wrote:


You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

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