11th Level Lore Warden Advice


Advice

Liberty's Edge

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Looking for some advice on an 11th level build I am making for a Fighter (Lore Warden) who I would be playing in a Paizo module:

Spoiler:
BRUNO CR 10
Male Human (Ulfen) Fighter (Lore Warden) 11
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15

DEFENSE:

AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 81 (11d10+11)
Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +8
Defensive Abilities Bravery +2

OFFENSE:

Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Dueling, Ghost Touch Whip +21/+16/+11 (1d3+14/20/x2) and
Masterwork Whip +21/+16/+11 (1d3+10/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Seeking Longbow, Composite (Str +6) +15/+10/+5 (1d8+8/20/x3)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Bows, Weapon Training: Flails

STATISTICS:

Str 20/22, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14/16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +23 (+25 Disarming+25 Tripping); CMD 36 (38 vs. Disarm38 vs. Trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise +/-3, Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Cosmopolitan: Diplomacy, Perception, Dilettante, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Whip Mastery, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus: Whip, Weapon Specialization: Whip, Whip Mastery
Traits Armor Expert, Captain's Blade: Acrobatics
Skills Acrobatics +16, Appraise +7, Climb +12, Diplomacy +12, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Knowledge (Arcana) +13, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (Engineering) +10, Knowledge (Geography) +10, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Local) +13, Knowledge (Nature) +13, Knowledge (Nobility) +10, Knowledge (Planes) +13, Knowledge (Religion) +13, Linguistics +17, Perception +15, Ride +1, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +1, Survival +10, Swim +9
Languages Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Hon-La, Hwan, Jistka, Kelish, Minakian, Minatan, Osiriani, Shoanti, Skald, Thassilonian, Tien, Undercommon, Varisian, Vudrani

Special Qualities:
Antitoxin (vial), Hair's Breadth (Ex), Heart of the Wilderness +5, Ioun Torch, Know Thy Enemy (Standard Action) (Ex), Ram, portable, Ring of Feather Falling, Wayfinder, Standard (1 @ 0 lbs), Weapon Cord

Combat Gear:
+1 Dueling, Ghost Touch Whip
+1 Seeking Longbow, Composite (Str +6)
Spare: Masterwork Whip

In quiver:
Adamantine Blanched Arrows (10)
Arrows (10)
Arrows, Blunt (10)
Cold Iron Arrows (10)
Ghost Salt Blanched Arrows (10)
Silver Blanched Arrows (10)

In handy haversack:
Arrows (40)
Arrows, Blunt (10)
Cold Iron Arrows (10)

Celestial Armor

Note that the Dueling is the +1 enhancement from APG


Other Gear:

Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Giant Strength, +2
Cloak of Resistance, +2
Efficient Quiver (62 @ 14 lbs)
contents listed above, and include the bow and spare whip
Handy Haversack (90 @ 74 lbs)
some contents listed above
additional contents:
Antiplague (vial)
Antitoxin (vial)
Bedroll
Climber's kit
Courtier's Jewelry
Courtier's outfit
Crowbar
Holy Water Flask (2)
Oil of Daylight
Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2)
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds
Potion of Darkvision
Potion of Enlarge Person (2)
Potion of Fly
Potion of Gaseous Form
Potion of Invisibility
Potion of Restoration, Lesser
Ram, portable
Rations, trail (per day) (5)
Rope, silk (50 ft.)
Tanglefoot bag (2)
Tent, Small
Waterskin
Headband of Vast Intelligence, +2: Acrobatics
Ioun Torch
Pouch, belt (8 @ 4 lbs)
contents:
Air Crystal
Alchemist's Fire Flask (2)
Chalk, 1 piece
Flint and steel
Sunrod (2)
Vermin repellent
Ring of Feather Falling
Ring of Protection, +1
Wayfinder, Standard (1 @ 0 lbs)
contains Ioun Stone, Clear Spindle
Weapon Cord (on primary whip)

Items and most feats can be changed, this is still a preliminary build, but it is based off of an existing third level build, so some of it won't change.

static feats:
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Whip, Weapon Specialization: Whip, Whip Mastery

In addition, he still has 1067 gp, 2 sp & 9 cp.

Total gold should be 82,000 gp, standard 11th level WbL. Note that the wayfinder was bought at 250 gp instead of 500 gp, per PFS rules.

Dark Archive

I like the concept and versatility, but why the whip? Whips have nice reach characteristics for offense, but you do not threaten any of your enemies at the "extra" 15 ft reach, which makes your trip much less useful for defense - on par with any other reach weapon. Switching to any other exotic reach weapon (Fauchard?) would allow you to free up two feats (the whip mastery feats) and use them for Greater Trip (your melee allies will love you) and Fury's Fall (+DEX to trip CMB). That would bring you to +29 on trip attempts, which is more appropriate for that level, if you want to be effective at tripping. The Fauchard will also increase your damage output, since you get +3 damage per -1 with the two handed weapon when you Power Attack.

I'd also consider dropping either Cosmopolitan or Dilettante in favor of Improved Critical - if you go with a Fauchard. I like the versatility of those feat selections, but your poor CHA and lack of focusing/maxing a few INT feats means you are spending precious feats to wind up with mediocre skill bonuses -- that's not efficient. Pumping a full 11 Skill points into a few (perhaps obscure?) INT-based knowledge feats will give you a lot more bang for your buck (gold?) than spreading your skills out like you have. The DCs for many of the skill checks at level 11 are gong to be 30 or higher -- having a bunch of skills at +11 (ish) doesn't really help that much.


Argus The Slayer wrote:
Switching to any other exotic reach weapon (Fauchard?) would allow you to free up two feats (the whip mastery feats) and use them for Greater Trip (your melee allies will love you) and Fury's Fall (+DEX to trip CMB).

I wouldn't count of Fury's Fall unless your campaign is set in Chelliax or your character can reasonably be from Chelliax. I know I wouldn't allow regional feats as a GM without an implied prerequisite of being from or taught by someone from the region.

Dark Archive

Atarlost wrote:
Argus The Slayer wrote:
Switching to any other exotic reach weapon (Fauchard?) would allow you to free up two feats (the whip mastery feats) and use them for Greater Trip (your melee allies will love you) and Fury's Fall (+DEX to trip CMB).
I wouldn't count of Fury's Fall unless your campaign is set in Chelliax or your character can reasonably be from Chelliax. I know I wouldn't allow regional feats as a GM without an implied prerequisite of being from or taught by someone from the region.

Good point.

I just noticed that the OP hadn't taken Greater Weapon Focus. That's a better pick than Fury's Fall, even if it was available.

Liberty's Edge

Argus The Slayer wrote:

I like the concept and versatility, but why the whip? Whips have nice reach characteristics for offense, but you do not threaten any of your enemies at the "extra" 15 ft reach, which makes your trip much less useful for defense - on par with any other reach weapon. Switching to any other exotic reach weapon (Fauchard?) would allow you to free up two feats (the whip mastery feats) and use them for Greater Trip (your melee allies will love you) and Fury's Fall (+DEX to trip CMB). That would bring you to +29 on trip attempts, which is more appropriate for that level, if you want to be effective at tripping. The Fauchard will also increase your damage output, since you get +3 damage per -1 with the two handed weapon when you Power Attack.

I'd also consider dropping either Cosmopolitan or Dilettante in favor of Improved Critical - if you go with a Fauchard. I like the versatility of those feat selections, but your poor CHA and lack of focusing/maxing a few INT feats means you are spending precious feats to wind up with mediocre skill bonuses -- that's not efficient. Pumping a full 11 Skill points into a few (perhaps obscure?) INT-based knowledge feats will give you a lot more bang for your buck (gold?) than spreading your skills out like you have. The DCs for many of the skill checks at level 11 are gong to be 30 or higher -- having a bunch of skills at +11 (ish) doesn't really help that much.

Whip because of the concept, and the PC this is modeled after is already third level with the Whip Mastery feat.

Because of improved Whip Mastery, he will threaten at 10', and because it is a whip, he can also use it against adjacent enemies without any penalties. Whip mastery also gives him the choice of lethal or non-lethal without any to-hit penalty, and also allows him to actually do damage against opponents, no matter how much armor & natural armor they have.

In case you decide to calculate it out, the whip is ALREADY at +29 to trip attempts, disarm is at +31, drag & reposition are at +27, and steal is at +23, so I don't think a fauchard would give any great benefits in that way. Fauchard, while it a slightly larger damage die and critical range, doesn't offer quite as much control, nor adjacent attacks. It also gives that little extra distance for attacks, where even other reach users are denied the ability to retaliate. Also, when using the whip two-handed, since it is NOT a light weapon but a one-handed weapon, it also gets the 1.5x Str and +3/-1 from PA.

Cosmopolitan is for having built the original PC as a member of the Andoran faction, which uses a lot of Diplomacy tasks, so he can at least Aid Another during the tasks. It also allows him to get Perception as a class skill, which Fighters do not, and can help out in reducing the number of surprise rounds he won't be able to act during. Dilletante is to get a fair amount of bang-for-his-buck without losing the benefits of Know Thy Enemy. And a +13 for his mob Knowledge rolls should allow him a better than even chance of getting the CR for getting that benefit against monsters up to CR 13. Which will cover all but the Epic combats, I would think, at this level.

As to making 30+ skill checks, I am a Fighter who can assist the Wizard/Bard on knowledge rolls, not the skill monkey. By spending 11 ranks into one knowledge skill, I can get a +17. A wizard with the same skill ranks in that skill will be at, usually, a minimum +20 n the skill, with a great potential for even higher. For all knowledge skills, however, I can give an automatic Aid.

With only 77 ranks for skills (plus the headband's maxed ranks for me in Acrobatics), I would be much more limited in scope if I try to specialize.

Spoiler:

Know Thy Enemy (Standard Action) (Ex) (Fighter Ability)
At 7th level, a lore warden can take a standard action to study a specific target in sight. He must make a Knowledge check to determine the target’s abilities and weaknesses as part of this standard action. If successful, the lore warden not only notes the appropriate abilities and weaknesses, as detailed under the Knowledge skill on page 100 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, but also gains a +2 competence bonus on all attack rolls and weapon damage rolls made against that enemy. Note that this bonus on attack and damage rolls applies only to that specific creature. This bonus lasts for the duration of an encounter, or until the lore warden attempts a new Knowledge check to use this ability on a different target. This ability replaces armor training 2.

Obviously, with a Bard along, I probably won't use this ability, but if we don't have a Bard, or the Bard is out of Inspire Courage (or uses an Archetype that loses it/modifies it), I have this as a backup.

Spoiler:

+1 Whip, Dueling, Ghost Touch
One-handed exotic weapon
Keywords: disarm, trip
+11 BAB
+2 Improved Trip
+1 Weapon Focus: Whip
+2 Weapon Training: Flails
+2 Luck bonus (Dueling enhancement)
+6 Str
+6 Maneuver Mastery (Lore Warden)

Huh. Unless my math just failed me, it looks like HeroLab is calculating my Trip bonus with my magic whip incorrectly. 1+11=12+2=14+1=15+2=17+2=19+6=25+6=31. Looks like I should be +31 to trip with the whip, which also means that I should be +33 to disarm with it, since the disarm keyword adds another +2 which would still stack with the above numbers, replacing Improved Trip with Improved Disarm. Reposition would be +27, I think (no +2 from Improved Disarm/Improved Trip, but the +2 luck bonus applies), while Drag would be only +25, I think

I quoted the incorrect source for the Dueling enhancement, it is the one from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide rather than the one from the APG.

Fury's Fall is available, but not suitable for this character, he is an Andoran with Ulfen as the Racial type, so no Chelaxian links to provide it. Besides, to be honest, at 11th level, I don't expect very much use out of tripping, since it won't work against flyers.

Note that the original premise for this build, which I decided against when I was working on this 11th level build, was to take one level of Gunslinger, and take pistoleer and a pistol. It was cute, but I decided that I really didn't want to run a complete Indiana Jones clone after all.

The longbow is for the sake of having some sort of ranged attack, and the Seeking was to deal with concealment effects, which a true archer would have other means to deal with. Not sure the extra 6K gp for Seeking on the bow is worthwhile, or if it should be spent elsewhere to better effect, like for a Sash of the War Champion, or making the strength belt also boost dex or con, or the headband also boost wisdom.

Dark Archive

Just a note: Fury's Fall is technically a Combat Feat and not directly linked to Cheliax - it was just presented in the Cheliax Companion.

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