Racial Heritage Kitsune


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

Can a human with the Racial Heritage(Kitsune) feat take the Fox Shape, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, and Vulpine Pounce feats without trouble? Can a half-elf or half-orc take the Racial Heritage feat?


He counts as both Human and Kitsune for anything regarding race, including bane weapons, qualifying for feats, qualifying for traits (character traits, not racial traits), being targeted by spells, etc...

So, if the feat requires Kitsune, then he qualifies for it. If it requires Kitsune and Shapeshifting, then he would need to be able to shapeshift (maybe as a druid using wildshape).

Basically, he does count as that race to meet feat requirements for being that race.

Grand Lodge

The fox shape feat gives you shapeshifting abilities, it does no require it.


This just gave me an idea of a human barbarian with Racial Heritage Goblin and that feat that gives you free rage after someone reads.


I don't have access to the book, so I'm just stating generalities. Basically, if the feat has a requirement of 'Race', then you count as that race. If it has a requirement of 'Race' and 'Racial Trait' (Or just Racial Trait), then you can't take it unless you have the racial trait, since Racial Heritage doesn't give you any racial traits.

Grand Lodge

The feats in question are from Dragon Empires Primer. Racial Heritage is from APG.


I know, I mean the feats asked about qualifying for. Basically, if Fox Shape only requires 'Must be Kitsune', then a human with Racial Heritage (Kitsune) can take it.

Grand Lodge

Here it is:

Fox Shape
You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.
Benefit: You can take the form of a fox (Pathfinder RPG
Bestiary 3 112) whose appearance is static and cannot be
changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s
damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but
you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to
appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a
standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast
shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.


Sounds good to me its not gonna be something thats a game changer and could lead to some fun moments.(Such as blind-siding something with sneak attack since your just a furry lil fox wandering around.)

Grand Lodge

The goal is to get the third and final feat, which gives you pounce.


Yep, as long as you have a Charisma of 13+ and 3+ BAB, you're golden (again, assuming you take Racial Heritage (Kitsune)).

Grand Lodge

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Looks like there is now another way to get pounce then.


Just note it takes 3 feats. And the first one is a feat tax feat that won't really help with much of anything. The fox shift part is pretty nifty, but it's not all that powerful.


Yay kitsune blooded monk of the empty hand for chair pouncing.


It's a no go:

Quote:
When you change shape into your kitsune form and use the charge action in the same round, you can make a full attack against your opponent.

As a human you don't have a Kitsune form.

Grand Lodge

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That would be so, but read this:

Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
You can change shape more quickly than most kitsune.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +6, kitsune.
Benefit: You can assume human or kitsune form as
a swift action. If you have the Fox Shape feat, you can
assume fox form as a swift action as well.
Normal: A kitsune’s change shape ability is a standard
action.

Effectively giving you a Kitsune form as written.

Dark Archive

BBT, you friggen amaze me


Poorly written feats for the win!

Not disagreeing with you -- you are right! However that is a poorly written feat because of it!


I guess technically you're right. You could do that. Course you'd have to drug your dm first.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That would be so, but read this:

Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
You can change shape more quickly than most kitsune.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +6, kitsune.
Benefit: You can assume human or kitsune form as
a swift action. If you have the Fox Shape feat, you can
assume fox form as a swift action as well.
Normal: A kitsune’s change shape ability is a standard
action.

Effectively giving you a Kitsune form as written.

That's one way to read it, though not the way I would. It's pretty clearly intended to modify the the character's extant shapechanging abilities, rather than give them new ones (hence the 'Normal:' section), so I'd say it lets you switch between human and fox as a swift action, nothing else.

Just my ruling on it though.

Grand Lodge

Can a half-elf or half-orc take the racial heritage feat? That would open up a bit more options.


I'm of the understanding they can. Their ability that makes them count as human reads exactly the same as the racial heritage feat does. If it works for racial heritage it should work for them as well.

Grand Lodge

Counting as three different races could be beneficial if utilized properly.


But what about those feats that say 'elf or half-elf'? that throws me off.


Redundant text -- it happens a lot, which isn't surprising considering how many people they have supplying material and the short span of time they have to look over everything.

Also it's still 'correct' so in a rush to find things that are 'wrong' it's not really that important.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

That would be so, but read this:

Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
You can change shape more quickly than most kitsune.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +6, kitsune.
Benefit: You can assume human or kitsune form as
a swift action. If you have the Fox Shape feat, you can
assume fox form as a swift action as well.
Normal: A kitsune’s change shape ability is a standard
action.

Effectively giving you a Kitsune form as written.

That's one way to read it, though not the way I would. It's pretty clearly intended to modify the the character's extant shapechanging abilities, rather than give them new ones (hence the 'Normal:' section), so I'd say it lets you switch between human and fox as a swift action, nothing else.

Just my ruling on it though.

I think I am with Benchak and Abraham on this one. This feat assumes you are able to shape into a Kitsune form not just the fox form. I would rule against it giving you the additional form. You could certainly take this feat and it would allow a human with the kitsune heritage to swift shange into the fox form but not grant an additional form priorly unavalable.

Liberty's Edge

spalding wrote:
I'm of the understanding they can. Their ability that makes them count as human reads exactly the same as the racial heritage feat does. If it works for racial heritage it should work for them as well.

The PREREQUISITE for the Feat Racial Heritage is HUMAN.

This feat is not available to other races or half-races.


Carpio wrote:
spalding wrote:
I'm of the understanding they can. Their ability that makes them count as human reads exactly the same as the racial heritage feat does. If it works for racial heritage it should work for them as well.

The PREREQUISITE for the Feat Racial Heritage is HUMAN.

This feat is not available to other races or half-races.

Read their racial pages, including FAQ and errata, before you make a statement.

Anyway, RAW yes, RAI probably not. If this is PFS, you could do it if you got the right boon. Outside of PFS, ask your DM.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Carpio wrote:
spalding wrote:
I'm of the understanding they can. Their ability that makes them count as human reads exactly the same as the racial heritage feat does. If it works for racial heritage it should work for them as well.

The PREREQUISITE for the Feat Racial Heritage is HUMAN.

This feat is not available to other races or half-races.

Good thing half-elves/half-orcs count as human.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Carpio wrote:
spalding wrote:
I'm of the understanding they can. Their ability that makes them count as human reads exactly the same as the racial heritage feat does. If it works for racial heritage it should work for them as well.

The PREREQUISITE for the Feat Racial Heritage is HUMAN.

This feat is not available to other races or half-races.

Ah.

Well, we all know that ALL CAPS, makes your argument the BETTER ARGUMENT, but consider that the Half-Orc, Half-Elf, and Scion of Humanity Aasimar all explicitly allow them to take feats that have Human as a prerequisite.

Do YOU, still STAND, by this STATEMENT of YOURS?

Contributor

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That would be so, but read this:

Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
You can change shape more quickly than most kitsune.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +6, kitsune.
Benefit: You can assume human or kitsune form as
a swift action. If you have the Fox Shape feat, you can
assume fox form as a swift action as well.
Normal: A kitsune’s change shape ability is a standard
action.

Effectively giving you a Kitsune form as written.

Read the normal entry. It specifically references that a kitsune's change shape ability requires a standard action to use, which proves that the feat modifies the change shape racial ability.

No change shape ability means that this feat does nothing if you take it as a human with Racial Heritage.


I think it was clear with the Kobold tail ruling that language in a feat assuming you already have a racial feature does not grant you that racial feature just because you qualify for the feat with racial heritage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Wait, if they take Racial Heritage (Kitsune). And then take Magical Tail, do they grow a Tail in addition to gaining the spell like ability? Cause if so that's fantastic.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
I think it was clear with the Kobold tail ruling that language in a feat assuming you already have a racial feature does not grant you that racial feature just because you qualify for the feat with racial heritage.

What ruling is that? I'm asking because I never saw a FAQ related to Tail Terror

That aside, yeah there's nothing stopping your human from growing Magical Tails. I'm more a fan of getting a racial supernatural fly speed via Racial Heritage Slyph and Wings of Air though personally.


This one.


Thanks for pointing that out to me. Looks like RAI that would also apply to gaining a Kitsune Form via taking the shapechanger racial feats they get. Makes me wonder how hard it would have been to just put "a tail" or "kitsune form" as a prerequisite though; plenty of racial archetypes seem to have prerequisites like that calling for specific racial features.

It still leaves open quite a few other metamorphic racial feat options though (i.e. Aasimar wings and Kitsune Tails), which I have to say makes me happy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Can a human with the Racial Heritage(Kitsune) feat take the Fox Shape, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, and Vulpine Pounce feats without trouble? Can a half-elf or half-orc take the Racial Heritage feat?

No... since those require the Kitsune shape changing ability which the feat DOES NOT GIVE YOU.


LazarX wrote:
No... since those require the Kitsune shape changing ability which the feat DOES NOT GIVE YOU.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ah.

Well, we all know that ALL CAPS, makes your argument the BETTER ARGUMENT<real explanation>
Do YOU, still STAND, by this STATEMENT of YOURS?


LazarX wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Can a human with the Racial Heritage(Kitsune) feat take the Fox Shape, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, and Vulpine Pounce feats without trouble? Can a half-elf or half-orc take the Racial Heritage feat?
No... since those require the Kitsune shape changing ability which the feat DOES NOT GIVE YOU.

I can see your point on the Pounce as it specifically calls out the need for a Kitsune form, but for the Fox shape one? That one has nothing to do with Kitsune form unless you take a strict reading of "Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action" from the feat to mean that even a Kitsune would have to revert from his human form before turning into a fox.

That aside, there's always Bat and Dire Bat Shape for the distinguished Human shape shifter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
chaoseffect wrote:


I can see your point on the Pounce as it specifically calls out the need for a Kitsune form, but for the Fox shape one? That one has nothing to do with Kitsune form unless you take a strict reading of "Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action" from the feat to mean that even a Kitsune would have to revert from his human form before turning into a fox.

i don't know where anyone would get the idea that the Fox form has nothing to do with the Kitsune shape. So as you might tell, I do take a strict view on all things magical. It's the only way to keep the magic in any form of balance.

If this is a question for PFS play, you can't take the feats tied to a race without being that race. If I were running a home campaign, I'd probably be just as strict.


LazarX wrote:
If this is a question for PFS play, you can't take the feats tied to a race without being that race. If I were running a home campaign, I'd probably be just as strict.

Racial Heritage explicitly allows you to take feats without being that race. The whole topic is about that.

That aside, I get the idea that it has nothing to do with the Kitsune/human shifting racial from the fact that the feat makes no mention of either besides the line I put in quotes, which either means that the word "kitsune" was used there to mean "the race you are" or it is there to show that you actually need to be in kitsune form to use it, so even a real kitsune would not be able to go straight from human form into fox shape. I would say that is the difference between it working or not working, but I would also be inclined to go with the second interpretation here as we are talking exactly what it says.

Grand Lodge

I am not sure why this got necro'd, by the way.

Is it that one GUY felt THE need to VEHEMENTLY disagree with SOMETHING two years OLD?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am not sure why this got necro'd, by the way.

Is it that one GUY felt THE need to VEHEMENTLY disagree with SOMETHING two years OLD?

He saw that someone was "WRONG" ON THE INTERNET, so it was his sacred duty to set right those wrongs, no matter how long ago they were committed.

RULES DISCUSSIONS KNOW NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS... or something.

Grand Lodge

Maybe it was just a chance to post some things in ALL CAPS?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
I think it was clear with the Kobold tail ruling that language in a feat assuming you already have a racial feature does not grant you that racial feature just because you qualify for the feat with racial heritage.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland post is flawed since the Bastards book came out. "When you take Racial Heritage (kobold) your size does not change, the number of digits does not change, you do not gain scales." However, the bastards book has lists and suggestions for just this. Heritage can gain you wings, scales, hooves and other things from your blood. When he said "Morphology is not an effect related to race in game terms", that is currently wrong. The newer book directly contradicts him.


Could you quote the text in question, graystone? I'd like to see it because I'm in the camp that believes that a half-kitsune not inheriting any of the traits of a kitsune other than the ability to spontaneously spawn a poofy tail to be questionable.


"When humans manifest a trace of non-human blood, the results are never entirely predictable, but any given heritage is most often made apparent by one or two distinctive qualities, either physical or mental (see the inside back cover for more examples)." Looking at the chart and examples, distinctive qualities include hooves, over/under-sized limbs, "a feature reminiscent of the werecreature" [fur, tail, ears ect IMO], Halo, webbed fingers/toes, SCALY SKIN, vestigial wings, and horn stubs. Bastards, pg 30-back cover.

Now none of this does anything for the 1/2-kitsune as it's only about the physical features that heritage gives you. I was more pointing out that the was incorrect about what it said in regard to the kobold feat. Nothing in the bastards book would let you gain it's shapechange ability. You could however gain some nifty fox ears. :)


Arachnofiend wrote:
Could you quote the text in question, graystone? I'd like to see it because I'm in the camp that believes that a half-kitsune not inheriting any of the traits of a kitsune other than the ability to spontaneously spawn a poofy tail to be questionable.

Racial Heritage: Kitsune does not make you half-kitsune any more than Racial Heritage: Elf would make you a half-elf.


Nothing says how much 'other' you are with Racial Heritage. "The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins." Could be 1/2, 1/8 or 1/101st. It's enough to give you the kitsune subtype.

So she's not wrong.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Could you quote the text in question, graystone? I'd like to see it because I'm in the camp that believes that a half-kitsune not inheriting any of the traits of a kitsune other than the ability to spontaneously spawn a poofy tail to be questionable.
Racial Heritage: Kitsune does not make you half-kitsune any more than Racial Heritage: Elf would make you a half-elf.

New thought: So if I'm a human with Racial Heritage (Half-Elf), can I take elf stuff as well as half-elf stuff because half-elves count as elves for prerequisites?

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