Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Most fantasy novels go out of their way to find archaic, usually British but any Northwestern European, words to set the mood and transport the reader away from the here-and-now.
The Metric System did not even exist in Medieval times, and it's entire raison d'etre is to proclaim the foolishness of the older, archaic systems, and as a paean to reason above all else.
I humbly submit that using Kilometers as the standard unit of long distance measure in PFO will be, for many, a perpetual immersion-breaker.
My plea is that GW will see the light regarding this, and regale us in distances of leagues and fathoms and even furlongs, but please don't tell us the distance from Camelot to Avalon is 1,817 kilometers.
Zidash |
We still use miles in Britain if it counts for anything :) Unfortunately the text in a game isn't really a character interacting feature but more for the players clarity. It's unlikely everyone will carry a world map around with them at all times, so I wouldn't get too fussed on which system they use to measure distances.
In saying that - I haven't played many games which even mention distance in such terms. Makes the world seem too small if a city that's supposed to be 3 miles away can be walked to in ten minutes... (even accounting for the everlasting running capabilities of most game characters)
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
A couple of people in the thread where I first proposed this have been at least generally supportive of the idea. And I might well be making a big deal out of nothing. The more I think about it, I think Vanguard actually used kilometers when it showed how far away your target or party member was, and I don't remember it ever bothering me.
But still, I think it would be really nice to use the kinds of distance measurements that Tolkien and Eddings used.
Freesword |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In literature where distances are covered at the speed of plot the units of measure are irrelevant. This makes it easy to use whatever units the author wants.
When you want people from different cultures to visualize a distance however, you need a common unit. Even here in the US we have some idea of what a kilometer is.
The metric system may not be the most stylistic means of expressing measurements in a fantasy setting, but it beyond a doubt quite practical.
KitNyx Goblin Squad Member |
Arbalester Goblin Squad Member |
I compare the metric system to having a HUD at all on the screen; it certainly breaks immersion a little, but any game would be so annoying without it that no amount of immersion would be worth it. LOTRO uses meters, I see no problem with using the metric system. We may be playing high fantasy games, but with 21st century cultures. I'd rather not have to keep a furlong-to-metric, or furlong-to-mile conversion rate as a note while I'm traveling ingame. Keeping Astronomical Unit vs. Kilometer vs. Lightyear was already mildly irritating in EvE Online.
HalfOrcHeavyMetal Goblin Squad Member |
The possibility of the game offering to allow you to display the information of weight or distance in either 'authentic' (pounds, ounces, Miles) or 'modern' (grams, kilograms, Meters, Kilometers) wouldn't be that hard to implement, and while I agree the conversion would be a pain, a little tab that can translate X miles to Y kilometers would be helpful if people with differing settings start swapping details of resources they have found.
"Right, so the cave is 3 miles south of the Oak with the weird face on it...." *hits the button, computer spits out the distance in kilometers*
Onishi Goblin Squad Member |
I doubt it is going to happen because primarily units of measure are intended to be understandable to the gamer. Just like the reason why common sounds a heck of a lot like English, and why in non-fantasy games, people in foreign countries etc... tend to also speak pure english (Sometimes just having the appropriate accent).
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
I tend to believe that whatever unit is used, the players will very quickly gain an understanding of it. I don't believe they will need to know that it's roughly the same distance as that between their "flat" and "uni". I truly believe they could use a "step" or a "pace" or a "reach" or whatever to represent the "meter" the engine is already geared towards, and then display that distance in Hexadecimal notation, with a multiplier prefix like "kilo" showing up once you go past FF. And yes, I realize that FF is just as immersion-breaking as KM :)
But I totally agree that the most important criteria is giving the gamer the information in a way that makes them feel like they've been properly informed.
DarkLightHitomi |
Properly is a must but truthfully you are only campareing distances in game so your references are always in game, therefore if you know that a hex is 12 girths wide then you know that the cave that's 18 girths south of town is about a hex and a half south. No need to really be able to compare to real world distances since such things are distorted in games anyway(have yet to play a game where walking a mile was actually like walking a mile). Besides it is immersion breaking to walk 5 minutes to a town that is 5 miles away (army standard is running a mile in 9 minutes btw), with fantasy units you don't get the break in immersion because that is just how long it takes to walk that distance.
Of course it would be nice if one of the units what equal to how far I can run in a minute, that would make it easy to know how far I am by how long I've been running.
thenoisyrogue Goblin Squad Member |
I feel that if you start to go down the 'immersion breaker' argument in this way then two things happen:
1. Anything can become a potential immersion breaker.
2. It can be a somewhat lazy way of making your case.
In the example of the metric system, I think that this is a fine example of something where playability is vastly more important than immersion breaking.
DarkLightHitomi |
Well immersion breaking is not very strong I agree but so long as whatever system in use is constant throughout the virtual world it doesn't matter how they compare to reality. Metric is an odd choice for this, that doesn't mean it wouldn't work, but might lead to: ok, let's walk 3 km that way ... what!? Now it says I walked 8km but that's not right I walked only 3km.
Using fantasy seperates our expectations of distance, as we learn to use the in game measurements.(which likely has to be done anyway since things might not appear to match up, learn new definitions for common words or new definitions for uncommon/new words)
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
DarkLightHitomi |
they forgot kelvin.
Metric is too clean sometimes, and the unit sizes are not always as desired. I like standard because I find centimeters too short to replace inches, nothing replaces feet, and kilometers are too short. If there were 10 inches to a foot and 10,000 feet to a mile I wouldn't mind the cleanness of it as much.
I also prefer base 12 instead of base 10. 12 is better suited to math(not as good as 60 but that is too large a number of letters for me).
Diego Rossi Goblin Squad Member |
I will repeat what I said in the other thread:
Vic Wertz already said that Pathfinder officially uses Feet and Miles, and that the developers will have to give them a very compelling reason to deviate from that.
Unless I have misread what you guys were writhing there was a "movement" that you started to use "archaic" measurement systems from "British or at least northwestern European history".
You can like them because they are in your historical background, but the simple idea of having to learn the difference between a yard and a cloth yard, what a fathom or a chain is and all your different gallons (no, really, you have 3 different measurements with the same name, to cite Wikipedia The gallon is a measure of volume. Historically it has had many different definitions, but there are three definitions in current use: the imperial gallon (≈ 4.546 l) which is used in the United Kingdom and semi-officially within Canada, the United States liquid gallon (≈ 3.79 l) and the lesser used United States dry gallon (≈ 4.40 l)) will reduce my enjoyment of the game a lot.Foot, yards and miles are relatively easy to manage, but if someone was sufficiently insane to resurrect the chain (A chain is a unit of length. It measures 66 feet, or 22 yards, or 100 links[1], or 4 rods (20.1168 m). There are 10 chains in a furlong, and 80 chains in one statute mile. An acre is the area of 10 square chains (that is, an area of one chain by one furlong). The chain has been used for several centuries in Britain and in some other countries influenced by British practice) as a meaningful measure in game it would be a big minus for me.
I tend to believe that whatever unit is used, the players will very quickly gain an understanding of it. I don't believe they will need to know that it's roughly the same distance as that between their "flat" and "uni". I truly believe they could use a "step" or a "pace" or a "reach" or whatever to represent the "meter" the engine is already geared towards, and then display that distance in Hexadecimal notation, with a multiplier prefix like "kilo" showing up once you go past FF. And yes, I realize that FF is just as immersion-breaking as KM :)
Aargh! No, die damned idea.
/me Shot Nihimon idea with silver bullets, stab it with cold iron daggers and nail it to the ground with a stake through the heart.
The basic English measurements could be survivable, custom made measurements for the game would be a pain.
Some of you can feel that the weight, volume and distance measurement are meaningless and what matter is only how the game treat them, but having a gem weight 0.3 "something indefinite" and a breastplate 54 "something indefinite" is annoying.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
First, I was not explicitly trying to disrespect the Metric System. As I said, it was designed as a paean to Reason, so it's very rational. I was merely expressing my own believe that it is incompatible with High Fantasy.
Second, I am 100% satisfied with the information Vic provided, that they'll be using Feet and Miles, unless there's a compelling reason to switch.
Third, and I'm really not trying to start a flame war here, but as rational as you think the Metric System is, I am confident that future historians will find it amusing that the Metric System originated in the 16th Century, yet doesn't use base-16. I am also confident that there will be a new "rational" system proposed that does use base-16, that will completely supplant the Metric System.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
@DLH, I totally understand and agree with using a base-12 for purposes of making lots of factors.
However, since computers are going to be storing our numbers from now on, and we're likely to be using an ultimate binary base, using base-16 means we will be thinking of "round numbers" as the numbers that easily fit into computer storage.
Uninvited Ghost Goblin Squad Member |
DarkLightHitomi |
@nihimon, perhaps but we already have even counting for that(gigabytes, terabytes, etc) and almost no cares that that the numbers of bytes is off a liitle. In fact most people don't even realize it. And those that do haven't cared. Though I admit beyond the army I haven't been part of a pro group but there is no reason that I can see to care really.
Kevin Andrew Murphy Goblin Squad Member |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bah, link fixed.
The rest of the world can't claim that much logic. They're still calling the ninth month "September," the tenth month "October," the eleventh month "November," and the twelfth month "December" too.
As for the metric system, that was invented in France in 1799. I suggest we implement it in Galt with the Revolutionary Council sending everyone who does not use the revolutionary new system to the Final Blade.
I also propose that, rather than having a kilogram be the weight of some lump of metal hidden in a safe somewhere, it be the weight of one of the Final Blades, all of which were machined to metric precision.
I also think that the rest of Golarion should regard the metric system about the same as they do all of the other "revolutionary" ideas that come out of Galt.
Probitas |
I think the main reason is that the majority of people on the planet are familiar with the metric system, even IF they don't practice it. Particularly with countries that are NOT the USA or the UK. They're big, but they don't outnumber the rest of the worlds population. Plus, base-10 is so much simpler to translate to other measurements. I positively hate the Imperial standards, they are too easy to manipulate, and difficult to translate into other measurements and achieve an exactly equal measurement due to the odd way it fits together, like someone arbitrarily made it all up one day. On the other hand, selling gas by litres made it possible to overcharge for a gallon of gas in Canada. And when I tell my grandkids how far I had to walk through the snow to get to school when I was their age, 5 kilometers sounds farther than 2 miles. ;p
Diego Rossi Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And when I tell my grandkids how far I had to walk through the snow to get to school when I was their age, 5 kilometers sounds farther than 2 miles. ;p
Cough, cough. Ahem.
5 kilometres are farther than 2 miles. Unless there is a special Canadina mile.1 mile = 1609 metres
1 kilometre = 1.000 metres
5 kilometres = 5.000 metres = 3.11 miles
KitNyx Goblin Squad Member |
When this discussion first started I agreed that I thought I would like the "Standard" Measurements of feet, yards, miles, gallons, etc...But, after listening (reading, whatever) to all the debate for the last few weeks, I think I would prefer metric for its simplicity and universality. I do not think the date any system was invented is particularly relevant since we are not modeling any real world cultures or eras. In fact, you could look at a world with magical flying apparatuses (as can exist in Pathfinder) as just utilizing a different type of technology to achieve the same level of function we have today. I can have semiautomatic pistol in PF, it is called a Wand of Magic Missle. This changes our time comparison since semiautomatic weapons became relevant in the early 20th century, well beyond the invention date of the metric system.
So, my conclusion, I hope they provide an option to switch between the systems, or at least leave us room for a player made mod to do so.
Zarzulan |
Since the conversion math is very simple, they should simply have a game options setting where each player can decide which measurement system he/she wants the information to be in. The programming behind that would be very simple. With an options setting then all players are happy with their display: win-win.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Onishi Goblin Squad Member |
Since the conversion math is very simple, they should simply have a game options setting where each player can decide which measurement system he/she wants the information to be in. The programming behind that would be very simple. With an options setting then all players are happy with their display: win-win.
Actually there is an even greater flaw in that, while the game and NPCs are one thing, what happens when you need to trade with other players, and you are both used to 2 completely different units of measure. will you be required to use the exact same abbreviation so the game knows to try to convert it in chat, or will everyone have to keep their converting calculators out. Admitted it is a mark of realism, but I believe PFO wanted to avoid the confusion and scamming that happened in eve with the .'s and ,'s,
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Hyla |
Nihimon wrote:Thats not really the same, is it?Well, it might not be the same for you, since to you the Metric System is your natural system.
For those of us who don't use the Metric System in our daily lives, it's pretty much the same.
That makes no sense.
You are arguing that one unit system you are using in your daily life (Imperial units) is fine with fantasy, while another (USD) is not?
Sebastian Hirsch Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Most fantasy novels go out of their way to find archaic, usually British but any Northwestern European, words to set the mood and transport the reader away from the here-and-now.
The Metric System did not even exist in Medieval times, and it's entire raison d'etre is to proclaim the foolishness of the older, archaic systems, and as a paean to reason above all else.
I humbly submit that using Kilometers as the standard unit of long distance measure in PFO will be, for many, a perpetual immersion-breaker.
My plea is that GW will see the light regarding this, and regale us in distances of leagues and fathoms and even furlongs, but please don't tell us the distance from Camelot to Avalon is 1,817 kilometers.
I respectfully disagree, I happen to know a very successful RPG that uses the metric system.
Go check it out. they even have the core rules online for free:
http://www.weltenwunde.de/pathfinderprd/index.html
Of course you might not feel a particular urge to check it out since it's the German version of Pathfinder.
Onishi Goblin Squad Member |
Alright alright for the sake of balance and equality I say we contact the Tolkien estate and have all of the dialogue converted to elvish, or we have a language maker actually invent "common". Heck the mere concept that a world as large as golorian could have such a universal language that is understood by 75% of humanoids on a global level is pretty astonishing.
Or perhaps we revert back to old scales of measurements. We'll go with paces. To which halflings will have a heck of a time trying to judge as their paces are .6 the size of a human pace etc...
That or we just accept that measurements are intended to be understood by the players, and assume that just like the languages, the measurements are translated by the DM/Game automatically for you to understand. Just pretend the game client provided you with a permanent comprehend languages spell that also translates units of measure.
Daniel Powell 318 Goblinworks Executive Founder |
A meter is equal to a yard to one significant figure. (4*10^1 inches, compared to 1*10^2 cm)
There's no reason that yards/meters can't simply be a UI choice, and use exactly the same numbers, if those numbers are limited to one SF. (1,2,..9,10,20,30...,90,100,200...)
If the basic unit is about half of a stride, it doesn't matter if you call it a yard or meter.
Diego Rossi Goblin Squad Member |
Nihimon wrote:Thats not really the same, is it?Well, it might not be the same for you, since to you the Metric System is your natural system.
For those of us who don't use the Metric System in our daily lives, it's pretty much the same.
I don't know if you are aware of it but the inches have an use outside the US:
they are used to measure the TV and monitor screens diagonals and as a plumber unit of measurement. So inches for you have a nice old fashioned ring, for the other half of the world they are linked to modern appliances.Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
@Diego Rossi, yes, I'm aware that other cultures use inches. I may not have done a very good job of it, but I was attempting to point out something very simple: For those who use the Metric System in their daily lives, there is very little chance that the use of the Metric System in a fantasy game will have any immersion-breaking effects. To illustrate this, I tried to construct a similar scenario that those who use the Metric System in their daily lives might be able to relate to.
@DarkLightHitomi, you are 100% correct. It will never, ever matter that some in-game distance is known to be the same as some real-world distance. The only thing that will ever matter in-game is the relative difference between in-game distances. The same is true with weights: it won't matter if we know that chunk of ore weighs the same as a full cup of coffee, all that matters is that it weighs some fraction of the total amount of weight we're allowed to carry before we start suffering the effects of encumbrance. That said, I would urge the use of words that conjure images of the legends that inspired fantasy games in the first place. For at least some of us who don't use the Metric System in our daily lives, the use of the words associated with the Metric System conjure images of the French Revolution, guillotines, Robespierre and the Committee of Public Safety, etc. These are not images that are compatible with High Fantasy.
magnuskn |
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TriOmegaZero wrote:Achievement Unlocked: Got TOZ To Post in PFO Forum.Physics are not compatible with high fantasy. Please stop using gravity in your games.
Edit: GAH! Pathfinder Online forum?! Gorb, warn me next time!
Comes with the title "The Misdirector". :p