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Sorcerer with a wizard's spellbook


Rules Questions


If I understand correctly, a sorcerer with item creation feats can use scrolls to provide the spells needed to make various items. If he happens upon a wizard's spell book, can he use the spells in it for item creation? I realize that he cannot memorize spells like a wizard, or cast them like a scroll.

My thought was to have a sage sorcerer who would have a spellbook for thematics. I think that if he actually spent the time & money and made the skill checks he could get additional spells (beyond his "spells known") added into the book. Could he then use those spells to make scrolls or potions? I doubt there is much on this in the RAW, but is there any precedent or any thoughts you have regarding doing this?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For a sorcerer a wizard's spell book is of no use to him unless the margins have pretty pictures of the same or opposite sex. (depending on how he or she rolls that is. :)

Scrolls do what they do because they provide the spellcasting needed. Spellbooks do not contain spellcasting within them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What LazaraX said.
But keep in mind that only when crafting scrolls, wands, potions and staves you have to bring the spell to the table, for other items you can just take the +5 DC to crafting the item.
Also keep in mind that if the sorcerer has someone alongside him casting the spell he can craft the item.


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I always wanted to play a sorcerer who pretended to be a wizard. You know pretending to study a spell book in the morning.

That way one day someone would capture me and think I was helpless or something without my book.

Little did they know, ha ha.

Okay, it's not much but I thought it would be kind of funny.


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What you can do, however, is create a book of scrolls. Rather than having scrolls be loose pieces of paper, write them on the pages of a spell book. Of course, then you get the opposite effect of a wizard: You refer to the book to cast spells, but not while preparing.


I really like the image of the scholarly wizard with his tomb of magic, but I just don't like the mechanics of having to choose spells ahead of time. The "Sage" bloodline finally allows for an int based spontaneous caster. The idea was that he would simply call himself a wizard and he would carry around a spell-book that was purely cosmetic.

I also had the idea of having a tomb full of scrolls. The problem is that as a sorcerer, he will only know a handful of spells. He could buy scrolls for other spells but wont be able to replace them as they are used up. So the idea was to find a way to allow for him to make scrolls of the spells that are handy to have occasionally.

I realize the limited spells known is the sorcerer's greatest weakness. Using scrolls has limitation though. They are not free, take time to replace and always work at minimum level/DC. The intent is not to break the system, but simply to make a more utilitarian sorcerer. So he would have scrolls of spells like "Rope Trick" and not combat or buff spells.

Another way that might accomplish this is if there is a way to use a scroll to make multiple scrolls of the same spell.


Two things in a spellbook might be useful to a sorcerer:

1) Spells researched by an NPC (or other PC, I suppose)
2) Spells cherry picked from a splatbook that you do not otherwise wish to be freely available.

I would allow a sorcerer to learn these spells when he gains new known spell slots.

He could also get a wizard to prepare scrolls or other items by handing over the book, of course. Spellbooks can be valuable.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I rolled up a Sorcerer with the Sage bloodline who carries a spell book around with him to fool people into thinking he's a wizard. He put an Arcane Mark on it, filled it with naughty limericks, and blew a whole bunch of gold to cast Illusory Page over everything with an Explosive Runes built into the cover.

I'm hoping he'll get captured someday so he can say "Oh no, don't take my spellbook, I'll be POWERLESS". Bluff is a Sorcerer class skill. Boy will they be surprised. If it ever happens.


Tinalles wrote:

I rolled up a Sorcerer with the Sage bloodline who carries a spell book around with him to fool people into thinking he's a wizard. He put an Arcane Mark on it, filled it with naughty limericks, and blew a whole bunch of gold to cast Illusory Page over everything with an Explosive Runes built into the cover.

I'm hoping he'll get captured someday so he can say "Oh no, don't take my spellbook, I'll be POWERLESS". Bluff is a Sorcerer class skill. Boy will they be surprised. If it ever happens.

I like the way you think....


Does anyone know of a spell that copies a scroll into one's spellbook? Is that even possible?


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sunbeam wrote:

I always wanted to play a sorcerer who pretended to be a wizard. You know pretending to study a spell book in the morning.

That way one day someone would capture me and think I was helpless or something without my book.

Little did they know, ha ha.

Okay, it's not much but I thought it would be kind of funny.

I've done something like this actually. In the inner sea guide to magic there is an archetype called a Razmiran Priest for sorcerers. At 9th level they gain the ability to use spell slots to keep from using up charges off of items that have spells in them that are divine:

Quote:

At 9th level, the Razmiran priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended.

This ability replaces the bloodline power gained at 9th level.

As such I built him up a 'prayer book' that was actually just a bunch of divine scrolls. He would flip through and use his spell slots to power the spell instead of the scroll.

This made him look like a 'divine wizard' of some sort even though he wasn't.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Does anyone know of a spell that copies a scroll into one's spellbook? Is that even possible?

You can copy scolls into your spellbook. That is the main way many wizards get spells, but there is no spell for it(the entire process). If you check the magic chapter, and go to Arcane Writings(?) I think the process is in that subsection.


wraithstrike wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Does anyone know of a spell that copies a scroll into one's spellbook? Is that even possible?
You can copy scolls into your spellbook. That is the main way many wizards get spells, but there is no spell for it(the entire process). If you check the magic chapter, and go to Arcane Writings(?) I think the process is in that subsection.

Maybe a magic item then. Is there some sort of magic quill pen of scroll copying?

I just think it would be very cool to have an iconic mage who casts spells straight out of a book; spell slots be damned.


No. There is no magic item, spell or ability that allows you to bypass all the work that is called for in the magic section. You must study the spell which requites a spellcraft check.

Allowing a wizard to cast every spell he has in his book would not go well with most groups. It would also make the game very easy if you had a really good player. <---This one will never be made.


I agree with Wraithstrike, casting straight out of the book could quickly become broken without some form of significant limitation. For example, several of the follow:

Usable only X/day
Casting a spell from the book would take additional time (1min/level)
Casting as spell from the book would require a higher level spell slot
Requires specific feats, skills or other build options
Consumes expensive items to use

I think it makes more sense as a tree of feats or an archetype than a magic item. 4 Winds had a sorcerer archetype that is fairly close to what I am going for.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/4-winds-fa ntasy-gaming---sorcerer-archetypes/learned-sorcery

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:

For a sorcerer a wizard's spell book is of no use to him unless the margins have pretty pictures of the same or opposite sex. (depending on how he or she rolls that is. :)

Scrolls do what they do because they provide the spellcasting needed. Spellbooks do not contain spellcasting within them.

He could take the Craft (origami) skill and find a use for the book :)

Notabrick wrote:


I also had the idea of having a tomb full of scrolls. The problem is that as a sorcerer, he will only know a handful of spells. He could buy scrolls for other spells but wont be able to replace them as they are used up. So the idea was to find a way to allow for him to make scrolls of the spells that are handy to have occasionally.

Scrolls are one of the magic item that require that require the knowledge of the spell to put into the scroll.

Changing that mechanic would completely change the balance of the spontaneous casters.

"We absolutely need spell X to proceed" "No problem, a few hours and I will produce a scroll of it."

The highest priced sorcerer/oracle scroll cost 4.050 gp. 5 days and you will have that 9th level spell, independently from the sourcebook in which it is described and how rare it is.
For a wizard it would be easier to craft the scroll of a new spell and then learn if for his spellbook that trace down another spellcaster that know it and is willing to teach it.

Notabrick wrote:

I agree with Wraithstrike, casting straight out of the book could quickly become broken without some form of significant limitation. For example, several of the follow:

Usable only X/day
Casting a spell from the book would take additional time (1min/level)
Casting as spell from the book would require a higher level spell slot
Requires specific feats, skills or other build options
Consumes expensive items to use

I think it makes more sense as a tree of feats or an archetype than a magic item. 4 Winds had a sorcerer archetype that is fairly close to what I am going for.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/4-winds-fa ntasy-gaming---sorcerer-archetypes/learned-sorcery

Actually there is a way to do that:

It is called arcane bonded object, can be used 1/day and come with some serious drawback.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Does anyone know of a spell that copies a scroll into one's spellbook? Is that even possible?
You can copy scolls into your spellbook. That is the main way many wizards get spells, but there is no spell for it(the entire process). If you check the magic chapter, and go to Arcane Writings(?) I think the process is in that subsection.

Maybe a magic item then. Is there some sort of magic quill pen of scroll copying?

I just think it would be very cool to have an iconic mage who casts spells straight out of a book; spell slots be damned.

The closest thing I could think of for that is the scrollbook idea mentioned earlier in this thread. Just make your scrolls into a book. That's what you're looking for flavorwise.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tinalles wrote:

I rolled up a Sorcerer with the Sage bloodline who carries a spell book around with him to fool people into thinking he's a wizard. He put an Arcane Mark on it, filled it with naughty limericks, and blew a whole bunch of gold to cast Illusory Page over everything with an Explosive Runes built into the cover.

I'm hoping he'll get captured someday so he can say "Oh no, don't take my spellbook, I'll be POWERLESS". Bluff is a Sorcerer class skill. Boy will they be surprised. If it ever happens.

Then again, he may be less sanguine when they break his hands and gag him just to make sure.

Or they may say screw it and just shoot him.

Lantern Lodge

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I read the thread title and all I could think of was, Fat guy in a little coat...


I'm playing a Sage Sorcerer with a level of Wizard Evocation Specialist.

My question is: My character KNOWS Burning hand & Color Spray (as a sorcerer), can he write those spells into his Wizard spellbook?


My understanding is that it is the way that they gain their spells. Sorcerers just develop the spell innately. Wizards have to study and understand the formulae, etc.


Strus wrote:
My question is: My character KNOWS Burning hand & Color Spray (as a sorcerer), can he write those spells into his Wizard spellbook?

Well... no. Not directly, anyway.

There are three ways a Wizard can get new spells in his book: leveling up as a Wizard, researching a new spell or coppying one from a scroll or other Wizard's spellbook. None of these three apply to your case, by a strict reading.

Of course, you can scribe scrolls of your Sorcerer spells. And then read those scrolls, and copy them into your spellbook. Which is utterly silly, but that's the way to go about it, by the rules.

Or you just handwave all that.


VRMH wrote:
Strus wrote:
My question is: My character KNOWS Burning hand & Color Spray (as a sorcerer), can he write those spells into his Wizard spellbook?

Well... no. Not directly, anyway.

There are three ways a Wizard can get new spells in his book: leveling up as a Wizard, researching a new spell or coppying one from a scroll or other Wizard's spellbook. None of these three apply to your case, by a strict reading.

Of course, you can scribe scrolls of your Sorcerer spells. And then read those scrolls, and copy them into your spellbook. Which is utterly silly, but that's the way to go about it, by the rules.

Or you just handwave all that.

It's probably something along the lines of jotting down several rough drafts of the spell as you try to convey what's in your head, until you have a working version, which you can then copy into your book. It's a stretch, though.


A very looooong stretch.


Thanks for the info ppl :)

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