Magus questions


Rules Questions


In deciding whether or not to allow the Magus into our up to now only Core & APG campaign we ran into a group of 6th level Maguses, and we had one in our party.

Both sides could kill a character in one hit, given a high crit range (keen) , plus 1d6 frost plus Shocking Grasp- and they were critting a lot, given rapiers with Keen.

But I think we were doing some stuff wrong. I see at 5th a Magus can put several weapon properties on his blade, but it seems only up to a total of +2, and one of those must be +1 for the basic magic enhancement? Thus no elemental damage also, assuming keen? I can’t see any Magus Arcana that would allow both.

Then, they seemed to be casting SG, then moving, then hitting with SG on the weapon. It seems like that would be a full round action, even given both Spell Combat and Spellstrike?

Now, I know Magus is not supposed to be all that powerful, certainly not Tier 1. But the ability to crit doing 5d6 (or is it 6d6?) lightning , then double that, plus 1d6 + str double, plus other stuff, was one shotting some PC’s. How much damage on a crit should a 6th level magus be able to do, given Shocking Grasp and keen (but no magic gear at all).


- At level 6, a Magus has BAB +4
- Maximum Arcane Pool Weapon Enhancement of +2 (or +1 and 1d6 Elemental property: Fire/Frost/Shock)

Spell Strike (1 Attack)
Concentration Check DC Shocking Grasp = 15 + (1x2 SG) = 17
To hit: 4 BAB + 2 Arcane Pool + Str (0) = +6
Normal Damage = 1d6 Weapon + 5d6 (Shocking Grasp) + Str + 2 Enhancement Bonus
Crit Damage = 2d6 Weapon + 10d6 (Shocking Grasp) + 4 Enhancement Bonus
Average Damage on a Crit = 40

Spell Combat in Concert with Spell Strike (2 Attacks)
To hit 4 BAB + 2 Arcane Pool - 2 Spell Combat = +4
Concentration Check DC Shocking Grasp = 15 + (1x2 SG) = 17
Magus Concentration Check Roll = 1d20 + (6 Magus Caster Level + Int Mod (0) You need to get more than 11 at least to cast thats 55% of fail.

2 Attacks at +4
If crit same as spell strike.

The magus at lower levels is difficult to master because of the concentration DCs you need to do when you are in range of opportunity attacks.

Spell Combat at lower levels is very very difficult to pull off, and if you want to really excel at it you need to have a high intellect and or lower your attack to increase your concentration check, or get Combat Casting with eventually you will not need at all.

Hope that helps.


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DrDeth wrote:
at 5th a Magus can put several weapon properties on his blade, but it seems only up to a total of +2, and one of those must be +1 for the basic magic enhancement? Thus no elemental damage also, assuming keen?

A level 5 Magus can use his Arcane Pool to grant his weapon up to +2 worth of enhancement bonus, and/or abilities from the list.

This can be used to turn a mundane piercing or slashing melee weapon into a +1 Keen weapon.

Alternatively, he could turn an existing +1 Rapier into a +1 Keen Shock Rapier.

DrDeth wrote:
Then, they seemed to be casting SG, then moving, then hitting with SG on the weapon. It seems like that would be a full round action, even given both Spell Combat and Spellstrike?

As part of casting a touch spell, you get to make one touch attack as a free action, any time that turn. Anyone can cast a touch spell, move up to their speed, and make a free touch attack.

Spellstrike simply allows them to use their sword instead of a touch, both on the free attack from casting, as well as any time they have a held charge. (The attack is against normal AC instead of touch AC, and using weapon crit threat range, etc.)

DrDeth wrote:
How much damage on a crit should a 6th level magus be able to do, given Shocking Grasp and keen (but no magic gear at all).

A critical hit with a medium +1 Keen rapier wielded with one hand and discharging a CL6 Shocking Grasp via Spellstrike: 2d6 piercing +Double Strength Modifier +10d6 electricity.

Dark Archive

Grick, slight correction. That damage is only for a 10th level Magus who has used intensify on that Shocking Grasp.

In this specific case the max damage the Magus could do on a crit is:

1d6+ str bonus + 5d6 shocking grasp for a maximum of 36 + twice strength bonus.

Now an optimized magus with the right feats/gear could probably max hit 40 points of damage on that hit but that is an exception.

Shadow Lodge

No, actually Grick was right. Crit'ing with the shocking grasp does do that much damage. Level has nothing to do with being able to crit with it, besides what the base dice are. Were he to have the 10th lvl intensified shocking grasp and crit with that he'd get 20d6 for the crit.

Dark Archive

Very true. I misread the question and somehow got it backwards. Teach me to try to answer questions when I'm half awake.


+1 to what Grick said.

A Magus can get very good damage spikes but the big issue they have is being able to deal that damage over a full combat day at lower levels. Using them as an encounter can skew things towards believing they are over powered.

For most NPC's their is no tomorrow so they will happily dump all their heavy hitter spells without blinking an eye since the DM isn't worrying about what might pop up around the next corner for them once the encounter is over they go back to where ever they come from no muss no fuss.

A PC should be more conservative in using their resources since they need to be able to take on several encounters over the course of a day. Many of which may be a waste of shocking grasp. Such as a encounter with multiple low level mooks. Taking one enemy mook down in a single hit isn't going to help the party that much in that kind of situation compared to an area SoS spell. Keeping a good selection of spells for a variety of potential encounters is better for the PC which eats into the single hit damage spells like shocking grasp that has you concerned.


Powerful things tend to happen when you use one of the strongest combinations for a class.


Thanks guys!


He could be a Bladebound magus, in which case he could totally have a +3 Keen or +3 Flaming, though still not both, weapon. I'm really not sure why anyone WOULDN'T be a Bladebound Magus.

They are a strong class, don't get me wrong, but they're still not quite up there with full casters. They're about in line with Inquisitor, which is in the APG.

I see no real problems with allowing it, just make sure you read and reread the rules and that the player does as well so he doesn't get away with anything he shouldn't.


DrDeth wrote:


Then, they seemed to be casting SG, then moving, then hitting with SG on the weapon. It seems like that would be a full round action, even given both Spell Combat and Spellstrike?

Yes, this is a full round action. Casting the spell is a standard, moving is a move, and the attack is a free action granted as part of the casting.


Meatrace, the last time I tried to figure out a magus wouldn't be a bladebound I settled on the answer of diminished arcana pool as well as not getting your first arcana until level 6. You can't even take Extra Arcana until then, and that hurts!


Cheapy wrote:
Meatrace, the last time I tried to figure out a magus wouldn't be a bladebound I settled on the answer of diminished arcana pool as well as not getting your first arcana until level 6. You can't even take Extra Arcana until then, and that hurts!

The diminished arcana pool is minor. At let's say level 10 you're looking at 3+int vs. 5+int. That's fixed by a single feat. I think a free intelligent weapon that can't be lost or broken and levels with you is worth a feat, yeah?

As to the arcana thing, I can see that. I'm playing one right now and I haven't felt it though. Most of the arcanas aren't great, but there's maybe 4 I can picture myself taking.
Still think the weapon>one arcana.


meatrace wrote:

He could be a Bladebound magus, in which case he could totally have a +3 Keen or +3 Flaming, though still not both, weapon. I'm really not sure why anyone WOULDN'T be a Bladebound Magus.

They are a strong class, don't get me wrong, but they're still not quite up there with full casters. They're about in line with Inquisitor, which is in the APG.

No archetypes were allowed, so he wasn't Bladebound.


To tell you the truth its the intelligent weapon part that really turned me off of the bladebound magus. The higher you go the more influence the weapon can potentially have on you. I have played with DMs that would rub their hands with glee over the potential trouble such an item could cause. Even a relatively benign intelligent weapon can get its dander up about something if it pertains to its specific mission witch is supposed to be chosen by the DM in most cases.

I am not saying that the DM should go out of his way to make your life miserable with the weapon but it is one of the balancing factors of the archetype. So it should pop up at least from time to time.


Narrater wrote:

To tell you the truth its the intelligent weapon part that really turned me off of the bladebound magus. The higher you go the more influence the weapon can potentially have on you. I have played with DMs that would rub their hands with glee over the potential trouble such an item could cause. Even a relatively benign intelligent weapon can get its dander up about something if it pertains to its specific mission witch is supposed to be chosen by the DM in most cases.

I am not saying that the DM should go out of his way to make your life miserable with the weapon but it is one of the balancing factors of the archetype. So it should pop up at least from time to time.

If it bothers you that much, crank your Will save. Even at high levels the ego isn't outrageous for what your saves should be at that point anyway.

Otherwise it's just an excuse to role play more.


Even if you can up your will saves to make it improbable for it to take over. Their are passive aggressive ways an intelligent weapon can get its point across such as refusing to use its abilities. Or more aggressive ways like using its special abilities to cause trouble.

So you understand I am not interested in being convinced on the pros of the archetype since it really isn't my cup of tea. I haven't ever been a big fan of intelligent weapons. I don't like the imagery of having to have an argument with my equipment about what we will be doing.

Having said this I am still glad that the bladebound is there as an option for people that like the concept and want to play it.


DrDeth wrote:


Then, they seemed to be casting SG, then moving, then hitting with SG on the weapon. It seems like that would be a full round action, even given both Spell Combat and Spellstrike?

3 possibilities

a) Take a standard action to cast SG, move up to your speed, then hit with a SG scimitar. Legal. Casting a touch spell gives you an attack, and you're allowed to take a move action first.
b) Use Spell Combat. Cast SG, 5' step, make 2 attacks. Legal.
c) Cast SG, moe up to your speed, make 2 attacks. Not legal.


meatrace wrote:

He could be a Bladebound magus, in which case he could totally have a +3 Keen or +3 Flaming, though still not both, weapon. I'm really not sure why anyone WOULDN'T be a Bladebound Magus.

Let's see:

1. I want the full arcane pool.
2. I don't want to wait until 6th level for my first arcana.
3. I want to enchant my weapon with something like spell storing.

Bladebound is nice around level 13-15 for dancing, but that can be handled for around 3k gold and using 1 arcane pool point by that point or merely a total of 12k gold.

Personally I see it as overrated unless you see sundering a lot, etc.

-James

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:

In deciding whether or not to allow the Magus into our up to now only Core & APG campaign we ran into a group of 6th level Maguses, and we had one in our party.

Both sides could kill a character in one hit, given a high crit range (keen) , plus 1d6 frost plus Shocking Grasp- and they were critting a lot, given rapiers with Keen.

But I think we were doing some stuff wrong. I see at 5th a Magus can put several weapon properties on his blade, but it seems only up to a total of +2, and one of those must be +1 for the basic magic enhancement? Thus no elemental damage also, assuming keen? I can’t see any Magus Arcana that would allow both.

Then, they seemed to be casting SG, then moving, then hitting with SG on the weapon. It seems like that would be a full round action, even given both Spell Combat and Spellstrike?

Now, I know Magus is not supposed to be all that powerful, certainly not Tier 1. But the ability to crit doing 5d6 (or is it 6d6?) lightning , then double that, plus 1d6 + str double, plus other stuff, was one shotting some PC’s. How much damage on a crit should a 6th level magus be able to do, given Shocking Grasp and keen (but no magic gear at all).

What he might have been doing is putting multiple applications of his arcane pool on the blade... putting in his +2 worth on one and than adding on to with a second application. And that's a no-no, you can't stack them that way if you put in a second application, the first one goes away.

You can get more at higher levels when you can put a higher plus equivalent on the blade. As to the other parts, you'd have to check his action economy carefully. If it's easier, treat the spell combat/spellstrike combo as a TWF set of attacks. That will help you define what's doable in a single round's worth of actions.


A magus, especially one that has time to prepare can be a brutal opponent or set of opponents for a party. They can do some serious spike damage if they dont have to worry about conserving reasources. But that isnt much different from other magic heavy classes. If a wizard was able to prepare for you he could easily hose a party. You could walk into a room with a dozen or so summoned crittors with a wildshaped druid and animal companion waiting for you. Unlike your typical brutes or monsters with supernatural/spell like abilities, enemies that have per day mechanics are more powerful as foes that only expect to fight once, then as party members that expect to have several encounters in a day.


This has been very helpful, thanks guys.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kolokotroni wrote:
A magus, especially one that has time to prepare can be a brutal opponent or set of opponents for a party.

I find the only classes that need LESS preparation time than magi, are monks and sorcerers (since they ARE what they need).

A magus will have all of his important buffs up in two rounds, and won't even have lost out on his attack actions! They have some of the best solo character* action economy rules in their corner.

* As opposed to someone getting two or more turns with companion creatures.


Ravingdork wrote:


A magus will have all of his important buffs up in two rounds, and won't even have lost out on his attack actions! They have some of the best solo character* action economy rules in their corner.

This is a bit of a misnomer, as the magus needs to be casting offensive spells there to tread water when compared to the fighter.

It's a bit like saying the monk gets the ability to boost his AC while fighting by spending ki. Sure he can do so, but it costs him an attack.

Here not only does it cost an attack, but also a significant portion of raw damage beyond that from not having the shocking grasp or whatever spell's damage.

-James


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It just means he has "options." He can be defensive, or offensive, as the situation warrants. Most other classes get shoehorned into one or the other. Take the fighter for example: deadly powerhouse (archery or two-handed weapon weapons) or tank (sword and board).

The magus on the other hand can fight better than many fighter types (in no small part due to their increased versatility) and can raise buffs faster than spellcasters (due to spell combat).

Heck, they can even heal themselves or others while attacking if designed for it. Not even clerics can do that! That makes them better healers than clerics in some respects.


james maissen wrote:
meatrace wrote:

He could be a Bladebound magus, in which case he could totally have a +3 Keen or +3 Flaming, though still not both, weapon. I'm really not sure why anyone WOULDN'T be a Bladebound Magus.

Let's see:

1. I want the full arcane pool.
2. I don't want to wait until 6th level for my first arcana.
3. I want to enchant my weapon with something like spell storing.

Bladebound is nice around level 13-15 for dancing, but that can be handled for around 3k gold and using 1 arcane pool point by that point or merely a total of 12k gold.

Personally I see it as overrated unless you see sundering a lot, etc.

-James

As I've already pointed out

1)Can be remedied with a single feat.
The others are legit, but not a problem I experience or am able to really understand.

Bladebound is nice at level 5...cuz you can have a +4 weapon at level 5...which is awesome? The ability to do pure energy damage and bypass DR is very nice as well.


I have a Bladebound question myself if people don't mind my asking. Newbie DM here and one of my players is attempting to recreate an old character with established story and suchlike, and thus is asking concessions and bending of the rules in order to make the class fit the character.

Effectively, he wishes to take the old elven defender sentient greatsword he found from another campaign and use it with his Bladebound. Rules say you can only use one handed blades for use as a Black Blade, so I'm wondering what the consequences would be of allowing a greatsword, in particular since I wouldn't even say I particularly know the basic rules just yet, much less something like allowing a rules exception like that.

Anyone know?


EDekar wrote:
Rules say you can only use one handed blades for use as a Black Blade, so I'm wondering what the consequences would be of allowing a greatsword

He would be unable to use Spell Combat while wielding or holding the greatsword.

He could still use the greatsword to deliver touch spells via Spellstrike.


I've taken net adept on my Spirit of the Water Elf Barb1/Magus2, and I can't wait to spell strike n spell combat with my one handed 10ft reach, haha.

Also, spell combat while enlarged should be fun, throwing one handed medium nets w/ shocking grasp or chill touch, deeeeeeebuffer.


meatrace wrote:
He could be a Bladebound magus, in which case he could totally have a +3 Keen or +3 Flaming, though still not both, weapon. I'm really not sure why anyone WOULDN'T be a Bladebound Magus.

Because a quarterstaff isn't a one-handed slashing weapon!

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