Master Chymist's Mutate and mutagen durations.


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

This came up on another thread and I figured some clarifcation is in order in case newer DMs need to know.

Do levels in Master Chymist and any increases from Extended Mutation stack with Alchemist levels for the purpose of mutagen duration?

My reasoning for yes is that both now force you into Mutatigenic form which specificly calls out having a duration of Alch+MChy levels for its duration.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Once you take master chymst your mutagen follows all the rules of mutagenic form.

"Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form."

I suppose you could argue that this doesn't change the duration of the mutagen, only the form you assume. That seems needlessly complicated to me and by that point you are able to be in mutagenic form so long its ultimately not extremely important.


Exactly I just wanted something to be specific.


Each ability has it's duration listed. Just because the form is the same does not mean that the duration is the same. That is a leap in logic and reading context into rules that is not there.

Feel free to rule how you like in your home games, of course, but RAW they have seperate durations.

Talonhawke: BTW thank you for taking it to a different thread.


At this point we can both quote RAW reasons for and against so this is to see what a general thought on it is since a final ruling might have actual affects on a PFS character (Haven't joined up yet so i have no clue if Master Chymist is even legal)


Honestly, I would be interested as to what the designers thought on this one myself.

But as far as the actual rules go there is no mention at all in the Mutate ability about the duration of the Alchemist's Mutagen. There is a direct rule for this in the Mutagen ability. Since there is nothing changing the duration from the ability's normal duration then it does not change. Simply changing form does not grant the same duration. It grants the form.

Just like was stated in the other thread: if the ability stated that you gained the duration but didn't mention the form then you wouldn't be arguing for it to gain the form. Well... maybe you would. I don't know you that well. ;)


Just that the Form has the duraton not the abilities then it can be read that anything that put you in that form uses that duration.

And yes if mutate said that it's duration was x and not that the Mutagenic Form's duration was x then i wouldn't be aruging it but Mutagenic Form is listed as having x duration.


Simply capitalizing the word "Form" does not make it an ability. The ability its called Mutate. Mutate has a duration.

Mutagenic Form is listed as an (Ex) as it is not meant to be something that is dispellable once shifted to this form. This is evidenced by the fact that this ability is mostly fluff aside from it being (Ex) and the bit about the alignment. However, by contrast, the ability to shift to the form comes from a magic base which they needed to list as a seperate ability.

Mutate has a sentense talking about how to figure out the duration of the form when using Mutate, "...adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form." And then in the next sentence it states, "Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form." This has a different duration or else they wouldn't have needed to state, "Taking a mutagen or using the mutate ability again while in her mutagenic form works normally (with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent)."

If they had the same duration then why would they need to put the part that I bolded in there? If they had the same duration then the effects of the last used ability would take precidence until it's duration expired. But it doesn't say that. It says the "longer" duration. That isn't just implying that they have a different duration; it is outright saying it.

Now I don't like to banty about words, argue over semantics or over analyze something that seems very simple. In fact, to me it seems overly complicated to argue that the two seperate abilities don't use their listed durations but rather for some reason use the duration of Mutate even though it says this nowhere in the ability.


Mutagenic Form (Ex)
A master chymist’s mutagenic form is an alter ego that has a different personality than her normal form, an outgrowth of the mental changes caused by the mutagenic potions she has consumed over the course of her career. The mutagenic form shares memories and basic goals with the chymist’s normal personality but goes about meeting those goals in a different manner. The mutagenic form is often ugly and monstrous and may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal form; they may look as different as two unrelated people. Indeed, the mutagenic form often has his or her own name, and may attempt to maintain independent relationships and strongholds (though the alter ego’s limited time in existence often makes this difficult). The mutagenic form even has his or her own alignment (which is selected by the player, but must be different from the master chymist’s normal alignment). The change in alignment only affects the master chymist while in her mutagenic form.

Mutate (Su)
At 1st level, as a result of repeated exposure to her mutagens, the master chymist can now assume a mutagenic form twice per day without imbibing her mutagen. In this form, she gains all the bonuses and penalties of her mutagen and adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form. Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form. Taking a mutagen or using the mutate ability again while in her mutagenic form works normally (with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent). The chymist remains in her mutagenic form until its duration expires, her magic is interrupted (as with an antimagic field), or she expends another use of her mutate ability.

Regardless of how you want to say it Mutate does not have a duration the Mutagenic Form does. Which you enter when you take a mutagen.

The duration bit is so a character can't suddenly switch bonuses with a second use and add the durations together.


In fact if they are seperate then none of the advanced mutations can affect your mutagen.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Talonhawke, none of what you said removes the fact that there is more than one way to enter the Mutagenic Form. That is just the form, that is all. It is not the ability to change into that form. The ability to change into that form is granted by two different things.

Talonhawke wrote:
In fact if they are seperate then none of the advanced mutations can affect your mutagen.

That is not true. Read every entry for the Advanced Mutagens. They all use the wording "When in her mutagenic form..." This wording should be a giveaway that these things apply to the form regardless of how the character enters that form.

The form and how you enter that form are two different things. That is why they have two different entries. I think you need to reread my last post. It comes right out and says that they have a seperate duration right in the text of the ability. It says right there, "...and the longer duration taking precedent)." "Longer duration", man. Its right there. If there wasn't a difference in the duration then why would they have to say that? If it was the same duration then the first effect would expire before the second and the point would be moot. But they DO have different durations which is why that clarification is made.


Make up your mind if the Form has the duration and I am in the form i use it's duration.

By the way if I drink two potions of Mage armor I use the longer duration of the two even if that number is the same its two prevent stacking.

RAI you might be right but RAW its not as cut and dry as you would think in fact the other thread shows that its as obvious as you would believe. In fact I can't think of any other class ability that upon going into a prestige class based around it changes into something differnet that only partially affects the base ability.

By the way you are right about your first sentence no matter how you do it your in Mutagenic Form, which has a listed duration of Mchy+Alch levels. Regardless of how you get there


Also by your reading of the duration text you can never drink your mutagen to change your boosted stats while mutate is in effect.

What that line is talking about is using the ability again thus the new scores and the longer duration from the second use take over so if you have 1 min left you go to full for the new one not simply switch scores for 1 min or go to full duration + 1 min.


Oh and Lune if you come back hit FAQ if you don't mind.


FAQ hit.

Talonhawke wrote:
...Mutagenic Form, which has a listed duration of Mchy+Alch levels.

No it doesn't. Nothing in Mutagenic Form mentions duration at all. Period. The only mention of duration is in Mutate which is one of two ways of entering Mutagenic Form. I am not arguing about the duration of Mutate. That has a clearly listed duration. Just like the Alchemist's Mutagen.

They both have a listed duration. Nothing about Mutate states that you change the duration of Mutagen. It just plain does not say that.

And to be clear I am not talking about RAI as I'm no more inside the designer's heads than anyone else and could not hope to predict what they had intended. If they post here then we will know. Otherwise we are only left with what the rules actually say.

Talonhawke wrote:
Also by your reading of the duration text you can never drink your mutagen to change your boosted stats while mutate is in effect.

Um...no? Where do you get that? It says that the longer duration takes precident. Let me provide an example:

Joseph the Alchemist 7/Master Chemyst 2 has used his Mutate ability to take on the Mutagenic Form of JoeBob enhancing his Dexterity. He approaches a heavy portcullis that he the party needs to get through so decides to drink his Mutagen to instead increase his Strength score. He has the Extended Mutagen Advanced Mutagen ability increasing the duration of his Mutate to (Alchemist Level 7 + Master Chemyst Level 2 = 90min x2 = 180min) make the duration of his Mutate ability last 180min while his Mutagen only lasts (Alchemist Level 7 = 70min x2 = 140min) 140min. Since he had only just used his Mutate ability 10min ago it's duration is still longer so you use that to determine the length of how long his Mutagen is going to last. So the Mutagen is going to last (180min - 10min = 170min) 170min.

Another example:

Joseph the Alchemist 7/Master Chemyst 2 has used his Mutate ability to take on the Mutagenic Form of JoeBob enhancing his Dexterity. He approaches a heavy portcullis that he the party needs to get through so decides to drink his Mutagen to instead increase his Strength score. He does not have the Extended Mutagen Advanced Mutagen ability to increase the duration of his Mutate, so the duration of his ability lasts (Alchemist Level 7 + Master Chemyst Level 2 = 90min) while his Mutagen only lasts (Alchemist Level 7 = 70min) 70min. Since he had only just used his Mutate ability 30min ago (leaving a duration of 60min remaining) the duration of the Mutagen is the longer duration thus that gets used.

As you can see the duration being different between Mutate and Mutagen can make a difference depending on how long ago you used which ability and how long the duration of each lasts. Hopefully this example illustrates the way the rules work by RAW.


Your example works for my side as well and I'll point out that using your example also shows that we would need to know to use the longer duration not any form of getting more or less when you change bonuses even if all ways of entering Mutagenic Form have the same duration.

As to what gets the duration I'll quote it again for you

At 1st level, as a result of repeated exposure to her mutagens, the master chymist can now assume a mutagenic form twice per day without imbibing her mutagen. In this form, she gains all the bonuses and penalties of her mutagen and adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form. Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form.

And please hit the FAQ button.

Edited for less snarkiness


If it wasn't this way then the rules wouldn't state, "Taking a mutagen or using the mutate ability again while in her mutagenic form works normally (with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent)."

The new mutagen's modifiers replacing the current modifiers (ie. JoeBob's Dex modifier from Mutate getting replaced by the Strength modifier from his Mutagen), with the longer duration (Mutate in the first example, Mutagen in the second) taking precedent.

That is how it works because that is what the rules say.


So that if Joe uses a second Mutate after 30 of his 90 mins he knows he now has 90 new minutes not 30 not 120


Talonhawke, you are leaving out the 3rd sentence (quoted in the above post) on purpose. My examples do not support your viewpoint because you believe that the durations are all the same. If that were true then there wouldn't need to be two examples. The duration of the last used ability would ALWAYS be longer and there would need to be no distinction made within the rules. But there IS a distinction made.

If it were the way you say then the rules would state:
"with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers"
Not:
"with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent"

It is because the two seperate abilities have different durations that this distinction needed to be made.


Talonhawke wrote:
So that if Joe uses a second Mutate after 30 of his 90 mins he knows he now has 90 new minutes not 30 not 120

What? Ok, so you propose that the distinction was made so that the players don't get confused that the duration doesn't just get added onto the end?

Oh, you know that totally makes sense since every other rule in Pathfinder works that way. You know, because normally I could drink a potion of Mage Armor and immediately drink another one to double the duration, right? (/sarcasm)

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, Talonhawke, but I do not believe that is why they needed to make the distinction here. They don't need to state that the durations don't add together because that is not how it works in Pathfinder rules in any other place.


If your so right why were you pretty much the only one on the other thread feeling that way.

Look you seem to believe your completly right and i can understand that feeling. As to your magic example it is spelled out in the magic chapter that the longer duration contiues when effects have the same strength. So I guess since its not a spell they called it out specificly so people would know.

You also seem to only want to focus on the third sentence and ignore the part about the form getting the duration not the mutate ability.

It doesn't read When using Mutate your duration is MChy+Alch it reads

In this form, she gains all the bonuses and penalties of her mutagen and adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form. Using a mutagen also forces the chymist into this form.

Note that the word form in this ability is always talking about the first sentence no matter how you get into it the duration is set by this ability. If they were talking about two different uses of mutagenic form One the ability and one the form mutate uses then saying you enter the form with a mutagen should have been with the other class ability and not here.

But it isn't so mutate forces you into this form. Which form is that refering two well its clearly the one in the same paragraph which says its duration is listed as MChy+Alch so no matter how it happens its got one duration not two.

Because either your in mutagenic form or your not its not mutagenic for (A) and mutagenic form (b) there is and can be only one.


I believe that I am right because I have the rules on my side. And I was not the only person to feel that way from the previous thread... not that that matters.

The reason I am focusing on the third sentence is because it explains that the abilities have different durations. Since duration is the basis of the the question this thread was about that is my focus. Also, it is the ONLY mention in either Mutagenic Form and Mutate that mentions the durations being different.

And it does mean that they would be different else why would it say the longer duration takes precident? I do not believe that it is saying this to distinguish that the durations do not stack as nothing else in Pathfinder works that way. There is no reason to make that distinction.


It only explains that the longer duration is used you are reading into the lines that it "means" they have different durations.

Also stop saying it mentions they have diffent durations it doesn't it only says to use the longer duration never that they have different nowhere is that said your Infering it which puts you into RAI(just like me at this point) not RAW. Raw would mean that what your saying is written which it isn't.

Edit: note that the sentence I keep quoting is the one that shows they have the same duration so at this point the two of us are at an impasse and would be best served praying for a Dev and enjoying our lives instead of arguing with each other since we both seem to agree that we are gonna disagree.

P.S. Are we really the only ones to even care about this?

P.P.S At least we haven't resorted to name calling yet ;)


Yes it does say that they have different durations. It says that in the abilities themselves. You are saying that it IMPLIES that Mutate changes the duration of Mutagen. But it doesn't say that. That is what is written.

The sentence you are quoting does not state that they have the same duration. It does not say that.

It is like what was said in the other thread: if the ability stated that you gained the duration but didn't mention the form then you wouldn't be arguing for it to gain the form.

edit: By the way, I just noticed that in your 5th post in this thread you were under the mistaken impression that you add the durations together. It looks like you have at least come around on that opinion.


What is says is that the form obtained has the listed duration and you now have two ways of entering that form.

You are right i wouldn't argue it if it didn't state it gained the form.

See You think I'm arguing that since x and y are similiar they have the same duration. But its that

X has a duration of a

Y states that it causes you enter a form with duration b and that using X also causes you to enter that form.

So If the form has duration of B then no matter how you got their thats the duration.

Let me ask you this am i in Mutagenic Form or not when I take a Mutagen.
Please give me a simple yes or no before you explain for the 20th time why Mutagenic form isn't Mutagenic Form.


I'll give you your simple yes or no when you answer this:
When the rules states "the longer duration" does that mean that one has a longer duration than the other? If not why would it say, "longer duration"?

Notice that it doesn't say, "with the last used ability taking precident". It wouldn't need to anyway under your interpretation as the duration would automatically be the same thus making the last used ability's effect take place. But if they have different durations then one of them will have a "longer duration". I could bust out the dictionary definition of "duration" if I need to but I think we can both agree that duration means which effect lasts longer, can we not? I mean it is simple English.

One has a duration of X. The other has a duration of X+Y. It says that right in the text of each ability. They are seperate abilities with different durations that can possibly make you have different ability modifiers which make you assume the same form.


It means the longer duration of the the two forms takes effect period without reading anything else into it meaning that barring some wild circumstance the new duration takes over and it doesn't overlap meaning if the active one got dispeled the other doesn't kick like it would if you had a potion of mage armor and also cast the spell.

The second effect completly erases the previous not simply overrides it as in the case of magic. Which is yet another reason to spell out the difference.


"longer duration" means longer duration. Anything otherwise would be reading more into the rules than is there.


Gonna throw up a bump in hopes of some outside opionions.


If you really want another opinion.

I agree with the notion that the durations are the same, because that is what I see when I read the text. To me the logic is obvious. I agree that the word choice is indicative that the second mutagen negates the first and initiates a new duration.

I see the ability as giving you a method of attaining xa, xb, or xc when ya, yb, or yc is present for z duration. The Master Chymist ability states that when you morph treat as if ya, yb, or yc was present thereby giving you xa, xb, or xc for z duration. If ya is present when yb is attained negate ya and initiate yb for z duration. This logic persists through all permutations.

I don't know where one could see the durations as being different except if one attributes intent to wording that I cannot find any evidence of being present.


The longer duration text seems like a reiteration of the spell duration stacking rules, as non-spell durations are not called out specifically in that block. It seems obvious that if you have 1 minute remaining in form and you reapply it with 100 minute duration, it will last 100 minutes. However, without that longer duration text, someone would be arguing the 101 minute or still only 1 minute new duration, because there's no stacking rule that specifically calls out Ex duration stacking.
If I'm wrong about that original duration stacking text, then it's still not unusual for basic rules to be reprinted in specific abilities whenever there's a noticed chance for misinterpreting an exception.


Thanks it helps to know I'm just not having complete reading and comprehension issues.

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