First of all to get this out of the way. As a roleplayer, depending on my alignment, I would sincerely tell him the next time that he trapped me with a horde of skeletons, deliberately, my next shot would be at him. That is majorly uncool and I would consider it an attack in real life and most of the characters I run would as well. Abandon me if you will, but if you use me as bait without my permission heaven help your soul.
There are sound strategies that involve sacrificing the efficiency of one character for the whole. From what you have presented it doesn't sound like he is using them. Incident one definitely not. Incident two possibly. It really depends on exactly how good of an archer you are verses how many/how good they are.
well, he's been playing since the expert boxed set came out in the mid 1980s. So that makes 30 + years of experience. Not quite a noob I would say.
I feel that at any point you choose to hit another character you should probably discuss it with them first if at all possible. I don't think I've ever seen a situation where a strategy necessitated attacking a character without their permission.
For example I did not play 4E, but I do find it hard to believe that there wasn't a resist element spell somewhere in the spell books for that character. I also find it hard to believe that the two of you couldn't work out your timing. He holds an action until after you've dropped your nuke perhaps and then drives in. I don't know. I didn't play 4E. But I do find typically that there is almost always a way to make both characters work.
I do agree though I would like to hear the other player's perspective or the dm's if it is handy.
Well as for his build, I cannot imagine a build that would suffer much in the big picture if he ensnared 7 out of 8 bad guys but kept all 4 members of the party safe and functional as compared to hitting 8 out of 8 of them and literally rendering useless 2 of his party members and nearly killing one of those two.
oh and incidentally, this is all fun and games. There is no personal slight intended as I am just calling him out for being a moron. We will remain as good friends away from the geek table as we always have. I gave him a ride home and he laughed and said "um, I forgot you were still there." So it is literally open season on the druid.
Yeah okay following that logic, the dude needs to knock that off. At least it wasn't intentional, but perhaps, just perhaps he might want to consult a bit with the other players before doing things like that. Definitely make a note to him that talking is a free action in most campaigns.
It seems like he is really quick to act and just likes throwing which ever spell seems it would help.
But without thinking it through or really thinking about the other party members that makes for a horrible tactic.
I hope he can think what his spells will do to the other party members before he starts rotting Dex based characters.
If he was in my game someone would wind up yelling at him until he stopped his stuff. The party members might even keep loot from him ingame till he figured his shenanigans out.
*Rooting
Try buying him some templates so he can put the area of effects on the map, and if you're in it, ask if the spell can't go another 5 feet thataway.
Obscuring mist is frequently cited as one of the best, if not the best, druid spells. He's probably read or heard that so many times that he thinks it's a druid's best option in combat.
The fact that he's casting obscuring mist at the very least means he's trying to do some sort of battlefield control. Why did the spell affect you, but not the creepy crawly? Did the GM explain that? Obscuring Mist affects all vision, even darkvision. Unless the creepy crawly had tremorsense, it seems you might be directing some of your questions at the GM to see why OM didn't do what the spell description says it does.
Why did you have to leave your cover and enter melee because he cast obscuring mist? Why are you meleeing in obscuring mist? That seems a rather strange tactic itself. Obscuring mist isn't normally cast so that you can start hacking at the enemy with blades, it's cast so you can move to a more tactically advantageous position.
Entangle allows for a reflex save. You're a ranger with a bow, you probably have a high dex and rangers get decent reflex saves. Undead typically get horrific reflex saves. It seems a rather reasonable risk to think that a ranger with a high dex has a good chance to make their save.
You must have been at least level 4. How many skeletons were adjacent to you in the entangle? Were they perfectly positioned so that they had you totally surrounded, or were you adjacent to two or three? Fourth level ranger vs three skeletons? That's not really what I'd call a major threat unless something very strange was going on. Presumably the rest of the party was at least throwing rocks at the skeletons, or did they all just sit on a tree stump and watch?
I suspect there are two sides to this, and I would have some questions for the GM on a couple of things.
The tactics the druid is employing have some merit, imho. It may be that the rest of the group doesn't understand and so is using tactics that don't mesh well with the druid's tactics, which is a different issue.
I can't speak for the Obscuring Mist spells, but in the case of the Entangle, I bet he's thinking "why is this tactical moron messing up my nice Entangle spell?"
I've found that parties often have a love/hate relationship with "battlefield control" spells. E.g. we'll have a wizard who loves Black Tentacles (because it messes up the enemies' melee chances) and a fighter who hates it (because it messes up his melee chances). Likewise for Web, Entangle, Stinking Cloud, etc.
If you haven't yet, your whole group should be taking the time to sit down and work out your group's tactics, both what each prefers to use, and what won't work with your group dynamics.
Yes, obviously, obscuring mist, cast over the entire battlefield, won't work for you, or almost anyone else, for that matter. Total concealment kind of ruins ranged attacks. There's a time and a place for the spell, and heading into melee isn't it.
And, as BigNorseWolf points out, every caster should have templates for their spells. But that's really the casters' responsibility. I'd suggest that you make that point to everyone involved.
Those are all team dynamics — if I'm playing a bard, I like to have cards to pass around to remind the other players of their bonuses from inspire courage, so they don't forget to include them in their rolls. Etc.
Just part of being a team.
Yeah, I've had the party come down on obscuring mist despite it saving the party.
We had some clerics across a chasm tossing save or die spells at the heavily melee party. Put down obscuring mist: no line of sight, no ability to target. Party got across the chasm, got into melee with the bad guys without any more casualties...
and proceeded to gripe over the 20% miss chance.
One idea of a use for obscuring mist is if you are coming out of a corridor and things are starting to look bad you could use it to retreat.
I would say that it's poor tactics, yes. But then again it may also be roleplaying.
I've seen arcane casters who have very good spells, but have dumped Wisdom (I believe) stats. The player, accordingly, plays the characters battlefield tactics as though they are not the wisest in their decision-making. "Did my Black Tentacles hamper you? Well, it saved me, and that's what matters." It was a little frustrating from a tactics perspective, yes. But it was also in step with how their character is played (a naive, selfish mage who thinks little of his allies' safety) and that's what made it acceptable in my mind. Was there a better option? Probably. Would his character have thought of it, probably not.
Heh..oddly I GMed a party with a druid just like that, that obscuring misted the party many a time. She was inexperienced and prone to panic..not sure why a 30 year vet would do such things unless it is a RP thing...
Stand wellll behind him? ;-)
@AdamantineDragon The creepy crawly had Tremor Sense so the obscuring mist really had only the effect of debuffing our own party. That particular one was forgivable because neither he nor I had any idea the thing had that ability. He did however know that Obscuring Mist would essentially eliminate my ability to use ranged attacks.
As for the time I had to go melee it was quite circumstantial really. We entered into a courtyard area where the buildings on either side had a few archer type foes in the windows that basically had us in the crossfire. However, I did have cover as I was shooting from around a wall. The OM spell would have worked wonderfully in that situation had it been cast to one side or the other eliminating the threat from that side until such time as we could deal with the threat from the other side first. However, he cast it in the middle so I couldn't see any of the archer types. At the same time, there were guys inside the building who had a hostage we needed to free. So my choices at the time were to sit there and wait till the OM ended or run into the building to the very small area where the OM didn't hit and melee to avoid AOO.
As for the entangle, well sure that sounds like a good plan to cast it on the ranger whom by all rights SHOULD be able to survive the DC. But sadly I failed my reflex save. I was also nauseated at the time incidentally so I was rooted to the spot, flanked, and couldnt even defend myself. Moreover, casting that entangle prevented the party tank from attacking as well. It is worth noting that above I said that he could have cast the entangle spell in such a way as to get 7 out of the 8 skeletons entangled and NOT entangle either myself nor prevent the barbarian from attacking. Its just damned poor placement IMHO.
And yes, the undead had to overcome a DC 15 check to overcome the entangle themselves but there was 8 of them. Mathematically, without any bonus whatsoever, 2 of them would save every round and they moved up and flanked me. With the AC and Dex penalty for being entangled, and the fact that I couldn't even attack back, I was a veritable sitting duck.
@GeraintElberion yeah but they are completely avoidable and the most recent one nearly killed me ... nuff said
@DM Krallek, I thought once you were entangled it took a DC 20 str check to get untangled. Still they were skeletons inside an entangle which makes them sort of sitting ducks for the rest of your party.
I dunno, it seems a little harsh to be judging the druid so negatively based on these examples. I've certainly seen far worse tactics employed. Frankly I'm glad to see a low level druid who even thinks about obscuring mist and entangle in combat. At least he's got the right basic idea about his role.
If he was dropping flaming spheres on the entangled skeletons I'd have to say he's no fool anyway.
It sounds to me that the party needs to spend a quiet evening around the campfire working out tactics.
I built a wizard once around battlefield control and I found quite often I was screwing my party over more than our enemies. I got the hang of it after a while but there are many circumstances where it is definitely not the best tactic.
Liam: Ahh I see. Well there always is that first learning curve. Occasionally it happens. In our game last week the resident sorcerer decided that she panicked because one of the opposing melee managed to smack her once dropped a detonate on the spot, near on took out the entire team, although in her defense she did bang up the werewolves. No one was pleased least of all the ranger that spent the rest of the evening hugging the floor.
As far as the archer verses archer case is concerned it would really have to do with his intent. If he thought that the party would be better off snagging the hostage now and leaving the minions to wander in the mist then it could be viable strategy. Of course killing them now so your now fighting in the corridors with opponents on both sides is also pretty reasonable. Sounds like the group needs to talk more.
I don't consider randomly dropping an entangle on a ranger, because his save is good, to be a good idea at least not without his permission. That logic would also pertain to things like fireballing rogues because they have improved evasion. He might dodge and then kill the dudes left standing, but then he might also get blasted. He should really be allowed to contribute in this decision.
Although in this situation the guy is pleading innocence. So what can you do other than shake your finger admonishingly and move on.
Um...
Over 5 levels a player makes three unhelpful tactical moves and we are invited to condemn them?
Weird.
That's nothing. I invited a new player to our group some time ago. After two games ALL the other players asked me not to invite him back. The reason?
He didn't optimize enough.
He didn't get in the way like in the OP's situation, he just wasn't much a team player (not flanking and the like).
It's rare that I'm as dismayed by my fellow players like I was then. The poor fellow was especially friendly and even shared the same sense of humor as the group.
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I built a wizard once around battlefield control and I found quite often I was screwing my party over more than our enemies. I got the hang of it after a while but there are many circumstances where it is definitely not the best tactic.
This is why having blasting AND battlefield control as an option (in addition to other options) is SO important. Any one form of magic isn't going to help you in every situation.
Shadowcat: That kind of attitude breaks up parties from my experience. The same logic pertains the next time a demon is getting ready to trash the mage the tank might well step out of the way, he's going to tank another smaller demon. If the caster doesn't work with the team then he isn't a part of it. The rest of the crew are then his lackeys and that never goes over well from my experience.
One person doesn't get to decide risk verses reward for the party. The party does that or at least all involved members do. The player that doesn't do this tends to have a real short life span in most of the campaigns I've played in. "No matter how subtle the wizard a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."
Mind you I'm referring to a person who does this on a regular basis. A screw up once or twice is fine to deal with, but a team mate consistently hurting players is asking to be kicked from the team or killed.
As for the entangle, well sure that sounds like a good plan to cast it on the ranger whom by all rights SHOULD be able to survive the DC. But sadly I failed my reflex save. I was also nauseated at the time incidentally so I was rooted to the spot, flanked, and couldnt even defend myself. Moreover, casting that entangle prevented the party tank from attacking as well. It is worth noting that above I said that he could have cast the entangle spell in such a way as to get 7 out of the 8 skeletons entangled and NOT entangle either myself nor prevent the barbarian from attacking. Its just damned poor placement IMHO.
Is your group house-ruling the entangled condition?
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.
Your ranger should have been able to move out of the entangled area, as well as attack (albeit with a penalty), unless the weeds were somehow anchored or tethered.
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.Your ranger should have been able to move out of the entangled area, as well as attack (albeit with a penalty), unless the weeds were somehow anchored or tethered.
Most vegetation is rooted to ground so in case of entangle spell victims are usually considered anchored. Depends on specific situation.
He was also nauseated.
Most vegetation is rooted to ground so in case of entangle spell victims are usually considered anchored. Depends on specific situation.
I've never played it like that; I wouldn't consider the bonds to be anchored in a way that would render people entirely immobile unless both ends where attached to something. Weeds typically only have one end attached to the ground.
He was also nauseated.
I missed that. He'd still be able to take one move action per turn, so escape should still be possible.
I didn't say risk vs. reward for the wizard alone. Its risk vs. reward for the whole party, and a fighter who believes there's no risk in letting a big demon maul his wizard buddy is an idiot.For example: BSF runs into a fight and is surrounded on all sides by an evil cleric, wizard, rogue, and another cleric. I'm tossing black tentacles, and yes, its going to hit him. He's got a full BAB, and probably a higher strength so likely a higher CMD to avoid being grappled. Ditto on a ranger and entangle (if I ever play a druid again).
He decided to move because the wizard is known for dropping high impact aoe spells on big targets without warning the party. He sounds pretty reasonable to me.
A team should work together and since speaking is a free action there is no reason not to do so.
Are: He'd be taking that move action at half speed through rough terrain while flanked and sick. I'm pretty sure the skeletons would be keeping up with him in terms of speed.
Are: He'd be taking that move action at half speed through rough terrain while flanked and sick. I'm pretty sure the skeletons would be keeping up with him in terms of speed.
Yes, but eventually he'd get out of the area entirely, having drawn the skeletons towards his barbarian friend and himself towards whoever among the party has healing capabilities.
It's certainly better to attempt to move out of the area while being pummeled than to stand still and be pummeled.
BTW: I'm not saying it was a good idea for the druid to cast entangle in a way that included the ranger. As far as the situation has been described, it was a pretty poor tactical decision. I'm simply saying the ranger should have been able to do something.
Um...
Over 5 levels a player makes three unhelpful tactical moves and we are invited to condemn them?
Weird.
That's nothing. I invited a new player to our group some time ago. After two games ALL the other players asked me not to invite him back. The reason?
He didn't optimize enough.
He didn't get in the way like in the OP's situation, he just wasn't much a team player (not flanking and the like).
It's rare that I'm as dismayed by my fellow players like I was then. The poor fellow was especially friendly and even shared the same sense of humor as the group.
Well, I hope you stood up to them and worked out a solution where the "offending" player is still playing with you.
Semi-Random thoughts/observations.
Obscuring mist on ship vs "things"(level 1): (i have played this AP so know what you are referring to)
As yourself have admitted, both of you were unaware of the creature's tremorsense, so i think this one is a wash. If it didn't have it you two could have gotten topside in much greater safety, and possibly moved to a safe area outside the cloud. This is also pretty much one of the first 3-4 encounters when you start that AP so people would still be getting settled into their specific characters and feeling out useful spells/tactics.
Archer Incident: (level4)
Whiel dropping a cloud on the badguys forced YOU to melee, it also deprived the badguys of their optimal combat style as well. That seems to be a fairly solid tactical choice.
Skelly incident: (level ?)
Seems like a bad play. Player made joke afterwards saying he forgot you were there. Seems to be a no harm/no foul. Point of consideration. You have had enough encounters, sessions, and time played to gain three whole levels before this 'situation' comes up for only the 'second' time. That seems to be a fairly large gap and when i first started reading i was thinking you were having problems every session or close to it. Assuming you level every 3-4 sessions it seems like 1 out of every 10 or so would have some type of extra 'drama moment' player caused. That's doesn't strike me as horrible but can still be avoided.
An above poster pointed out that entangle is only -4 dex (net -2 AC and reflex saves) and if you fail your save you cannot move from your square. I also think the above comment about the guides always touting obscuring mist and entangle as being terrific druid control spells may be why your friend is using them.
Have you said anything in character about it? "dude, don't do that, i can't shoot em with arrows if i can't see em, and that's what i am best at. " or some such. Ironically, entangled skeletons being shot with arrows get their DR so its not the best combo. But weak damage at range with no damage taken is still better then wild melee.
What level were you all for your 3rd incident?
Overall my impression is this is not a real problem problem, but simply two playstyle choices that don't mesh 100% at this time. Also no build is at its optimal use in every single encounter...occasionally you will have one that you underperform in. (yeah, i am sure you know that already, but just felt it needed to be said!)
You haven't mentioned the Druid Character's INT score. He may just be role-playing appropriately. :)
Stupidity is not an excuse for one's crimes.
You attack the party, then the party is going to defend itself. Simple as that.
Sorry if this was already answered, but are you guys using miniatures?
I agree with the majority of the thread, bad tactics on the druid's side. Have you guys sat down and talked to him about this? Anyone that uses battlefield control spells should be aware of common party tactics, and be ready to alter their strategy. Does he ever use readied actions?
"I move and ready tangle for when X gets out of the way. Free action "X GET YOUR BUTT OUTA THERE!
My party actually made a language out of hand signals so we could communicate without alerting enemies to our plans, so enemies are rarely able to figure out what's about to happen to them.
That being said I feel your pain with silly choices, our healer fancies himself a dps and our, lovely, bard is rather inexperienced. Like tossing reflex save spells that average 5 damage at two high level rogues.