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RPG Superstar 2015

Why all the Fighter hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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What do you mean simplest encounters?


wraithstrike wrote:
What do you mean simplest encounters?

counters

Let's start with a canyon. On the other side of the canyon is a caster with any variety of arrow screwing spells if you want to get cheeky and shoot at him.

Or spell effects like wall of force, or iron, or just flying foes. Things like that.

That isn't to say a barbarian can do better in all of those situations, but he can in many. Rangers and Paladins cover others easily enough.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Mike Schneider wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

A barbarian does not ever equal a fighter with the fighter's weapon at any level except level 1-3. Definitely not at higher levels.

He will likely surpass the fighter in any other weapon.

IMO it's a bad idea for a fighter to stick all his eggs in one basket with Weapon Training (so mine usually end up +3/+3 with Gloves of Dueling); even double-stacked at high level, you're still looking at +4/+4 w/gloves.

The 2hPA barbarian who dips three or four levels in Weapon Master basically gets all the cheese at little cost. The S&B fighter who dips barbarian (aside from urban) gains little (since defense is as important to him as offense, and he doesn't want lower AC).

um?

The fighter can dip barbarian for rage and get all of the cheese at little cost, too, and get a Furious sword, too, for the exact same thing. One or two feats for extra rage rounds, he's good to go.

And he can still spend feats on the weapon spec tree, which the barbarian won't with only 3 level in Weapon Master. It's the spec tree which defines a Fighter's favorite weapon, after all.

With full spec tree, gloves, and rage, the fighter is going to be +10/+12.

The barb with +6 rage (don't get +8 til 20), weapon master with gloves, is a whopping +6/+6 (single handed weapon for both, adjust as seen fit.

a barb dip helps a fighter a LOT more then a fighter dip helps a barb.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:


The fighter can dip barbarian for rage and get all of the cheese at little cost, too, and get a Furious sword, too, for the exact same thing. One or two feats for extra rage rounds, he's good to go.

Nah, that's merely the bread. The cheese is in the rage powers.


as a fighter I would dip Wild Rager [level 2].....good times!!!


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TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
What do you mean simplest encounters?

counters

Let's start with a canyon. On the other side of the canyon is a caster with any variety of arrow screwing spells if you want to get cheeky and shoot at him.

Or spell effects like wall of force, or iron, or just flying foes. Things like that.

That isn't to say a barbarian can do better in all of those situations, but he can in many. Rangers and Paladins cover others easily enough.

I can tell who plays in games that are specifically designed to work against non-casters. I can also tell who doesn't know how to play a fighter very well. Casters can be stopped just as easily. I know...it's GM fiat and not fair to use anti-caster tactics...I've been down this road way too many times.


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In my opinion, fighters feel like a 1st-ed class teleported up to Pathfinder times. The fighter's main strength in combat is the fact that he cannot run out of swings... back in earlier eds, as far as I understand it, spellcasters had way less spells/abilities per day. Combine this with using several lower-level encounters instead of one at-level encounter, and the wizard's going to run out of spells pretty quick. That's where the fighter comes in; even when the sorcerer's used up his last fly spell, and the cleric is on two Channel Energies left, the fighter is still swinging. He does as much damage on round 100 as he does on round 1 (fatigue rules nonwithstanding).

However, since most players rest after every one or two encounters, blowing their entire spellbook on those two encounters, the fighter does look piddly by comparison. So the only way to buff the fighter properly is to redesign the game to have multiple lower-level encounters in one day, rather than one at-level encounter. The spellcasters (and other classes) would have to watch their resources more, making the non-resource fighter more useful.

Out of combat, they're very versatile; a human fighter with at least 10 int can get Climb, a Craft skill, and one other; combined with their high strength to carry lots of miscellaneous gear around, more so than even the rogue or bard.

So yes, making the fighter useful would involve rebalancing how you run encounters.

Liberty's Edge

Atarlost wrote:
Removing the dipper archetypes would help fighter, yes.

Fighters benefit from from dipping other classes as much, of not more, than other class do dipping fighter.


TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
What do you mean simplest encounters?

counters

Let's start with a canyon. On the other side of the canyon is a caster with any variety of arrow screwing spells if you want to get cheeky and shoot at him.

Or spell effects like wall of force, or iron, or just flying foes. Things like that.

That isn't to say a barbarian can do better in all of those situations, but he can in many. Rangers and Paladins cover others easily enough.

I don't see how any of those are doing what a fighter can't. Well the ranger probably has some spell that allows him to swim or climb as a movement type or that gives him a bonus to the skill check, but the pally, and barbarian are in not much better condition.


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TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
What do you mean simplest encounters?

counters

Let's start with a canyon. On the other side of the canyon is a caster with any variety of arrow screwing spells if you want to get cheeky and shoot at him.

Or spell effects like wall of force, or iron, or just flying foes. Things like that.

That isn't to say a barbarian can do better in all of those situations, but he can in many. Rangers and Paladins cover others easily enough.

What if the fighter flips the wizard the bird and walks off, takes a two mile jog around the other way and comes at him later? Then the wizard doesn't have his stupid wall spell memorized anymore.


wraithstrike wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
What do you mean simplest encounters?

counters

Let's start with a canyon. On the other side of the canyon is a caster with any variety of arrow screwing spells if you want to get cheeky and shoot at him.

Or spell effects like wall of force, or iron, or just flying foes. Things like that.

That isn't to say a barbarian can do better in all of those situations, but he can in many. Rangers and Paladins cover others easily enough.

I don't see how any of those are doing what a fighter can't. Well the ranger probably has some spell that allows him to swim or climb as a movement type or that gives him a bonus to the skill check, but the pally, and barbarian are in not much better condition.

Like I said some can't do better in all but better in some. Spell casting definitely helps, but also does having things like a flying mount which certain rangers can definitely have. Paladins can dispel magic. Barbarians get some interesting options in their rage powers. Spell Sunder in particular.

Cranewings wrote:
What if the fighter flips the wizard the bird and walks off, takes a two mile jog around the other way and comes at him later? Then the wizard doesn't have his stupid wall spell memorized anymore.

Couple of things.

1. It doesn't have to be a wizard. Spontaneous casters dont run into that problem as often.

2. Depending on the caster in question he can just walk away himself. After all he has evil plots to get back to. What did you expect to be the center of his world?

Keep in mind casters, at least how traditionally viewed, dont always need to be involved to bring up these dillemas.

The Exchange

cranewings wrote:

What if the fighter flips the wizard the bird and walks off, takes a two mile jog around the other way and comes at him later? Then the wizard doesn't have his stupid wall spell memorized anymore.

That's great, as long as the wizard doesn't have a big stack of scrolls handy (hint: he does), or the fighter has a couple of hours to waste before the ritual is complete/the captives are killed/the evil horde marches/etc.

The fighter also doesn't do any BETTER in this situation than any other class, either, so it's hard to see how this counters the fighter's weakness.


DDogwood wrote:
cranewings wrote:

What if the fighter flips the wizard the bird and walks off, takes a two mile jog around the other way and comes at him later? Then the wizard doesn't have his stupid wall spell memorized anymore.

That's great, as long as the wizard doesn't have a big stack of scrolls handy (hint: he does), or the fighter has a couple of hours to waste before the ritual is complete/the captives are killed/the evil horde marches/etc.

The fighter also doesn't do any BETTER in this situation than any other class, either, so it's hard to see how this counters the fighter's weakness.

Most of the time, you only have a few minutes left to stop the ritual because the GM thinks it is interesting. I think it is stupid. It doesn't matter in most people's games how many days you sleep in the dungeon or what path you travel, you will arrive with 5 minutes to spare.

What if the ritual is on the full moon and the fighter arrives three days early to stop it? That is actually 1,000,000 times more likely than arriving with five minutes to spare. If that's the case, he can do whatever he needs to in order to mess up the wizards casting.

Besides, scrolls are expensive. People always site that enemy wizards have a dozen scrolls but personally, I've never had a wizard PC either under my control or in a game I ran that could really afford any but the most essential, and they got used when they were around.


The best rework of the 3.5 Fighter is out of Trailblazer; combine that with the PF Fighter and you have an incredibly versatile Fighter.

The Exchange

cranewings wrote:
DDogwood wrote:
cranewings wrote:

What if the fighter flips the wizard the bird and walks off, takes a two mile jog around the other way and comes at him later? Then the wizard doesn't have his stupid wall spell memorized anymore.

That's great, as long as the wizard doesn't have a big stack of scrolls handy (hint: he does), or the fighter has a couple of hours to waste before the ritual is complete/the captives are killed/the evil horde marches/etc.

The fighter also doesn't do any BETTER in this situation than any other class, either, so it's hard to see how this counters the fighter's weakness.

Most of the time, you only have a few minutes left to stop the ritual because the GM thinks it is interesting. I think it is stupid. It doesn't matter in most people's games how many days you sleep in the dungeon or what path you travel, you will arrive with 5 minutes to spare.

What if the ritual is on the full moon and the fighter arrives three days early to stop it? That is actually 1,000,000 times more likely than arriving with five minutes to spare. If that's the case, he can do whatever he needs to in order to mess up the wizards casting.

Besides, scrolls are expensive. People always site that enemy wizards have a dozen scrolls but personally, I've never had a wizard PC either under my control or in a game I ran that could really afford any but the most essential, and they got used when they were around.

So you're suggesting that it's more dramatic for the fighter to "kite" the evil wizard over the course of three days than to have a race against time? If that's the. Are, then I respectfully disagree. And regardless, neither situation actually makes the fighter more interesting or viable, so it's a moot point.

With Scribe Scroll, scrolls are pretty cheap, and every Wizard should have plenty unless he never has any downtime. Which he WILL have if his opponents keep wandering off during fights, right?

Anyway, my point has always been that Fighters don't do anything that isn't available to every other class, except being good at fighting, and they aren't even necessarily that good at fighting when they get to higher levels. You've failed to address that at all.


You know, these wall spells people keep citing are kind of garbage. 5' per level? So why doesn't the fighter walk around it or chop through it depending on type? I've never had a 10th level fighter with less than a +20 Jump, usually higher. My fat butt can climb a 10' wall in 6 seconds if I'm motivated. Fight 10 - Slayer of Armies is going to be over that thing in a move action.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Er, Wall of Force is at a minimum 100ft long when first cast, and only gets longer. Your fighter is going to take a couple rounds to get around that. It has hardness 30, a minimum of 200 HP, and is practically unclimbable by the Climb rules. I think the jump check is 40, more if he stacks it higher than 10 ft.


Fighters of equal level to this wizard have a lot of money. I'm sort of talking out my butt here because I don't like games past 6th or 7th level, but shouldn't a 9th level fighter have winged boots or a portable hole or something? I mean, it is a wall. Most people playing fighters that high are thinking about taking down dungeons and castles. They can probably negotiate a wall.

Not to mention Wall of Force only lasts a round a level. It is highly vulnerable to the run away / come back 30 seconds later tactic.


People keep giving wizards all of these AWESOME advantages, like putting the burden of aggression on the fighter. What if the fighter doesn't have 30 more seconds to deal with the wizard. blah blah blah. That is a big advantage and it can go the other way.


Then of course there's terrain considerations. A 45ft long wall doesn't seem like much until it's sitting vertically between you and the wizard in a 5ft wide corridor.

And then, because he still has that ever useful line of sight, the Blade Barrier fills that space.

And even then it's funny because some other martial classes can still get ways around that. Even a monk can potentially just D. Door straight through it.

And again, it doesn't even ahve to be a caster. Simply the fighter "eating traps to the face" can trigger these sorts of nasty inconveniences.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
cranewings wrote:
Fighters of equal level to this wizard have a lot of money. I'm sort of talking out my butt here because I don't like games past 6th or 7th level, but shouldn't a 9th level fighter have winged boots or a portable hole or something?

Merely pointing out the factual errors in your post.


TarkXT wrote:


Like I said some can't do better in all but better in some. Spell casting definitely helps, but also does having things like a flying mount which certain rangers can definitely have. Paladins can dispel magic. Barbarians get some interesting options in their rage powers. Spell Sunder in particular.

What flying mount does the ranger get by RAW? The ones in the bestiary are up to GM discretion.

That barbarian is on the other side of the canyon. I did not check, but I thought spell sunder was limited to melee attacks. The paladin with dispel magic has a shot but with a caster level of paladin level -3 his odds are very bad. The caster just puts the spell back up again, especially if it is a spontaneous caster. Now the paladin seems to have the best option in this example, but even he is not going to prevail unless the caster is too arrogant to have a 2nd or 3rd spell ready.


Those wall spells are pretty nice. A nat 20 with a +20 modifier gets you a 40.
Every 4 of you DC gets you 1 foot of vertical leap. That mean you can jump a 10 ft wall. Example 16 rolled on a the check to jump means you jumped a 4 foot wall.

With 5 ft per caster level the caster can easily cover 10 feet of height. Walking around them take time.


wraithstrike wrote:


What flying mount does the ranger get by RAW? The ones in the bestiary are up to GM discretion.
That barbarian is on the other side of the canyon. I did not check, but I thought spell sunder was limited to melee attacks. The paladin with dispel magic has a shot but with a caster level of paladin level -3 his odds are very bad. The caster just puts the spell back up again, especially if it is a spontaneous caster. Now the paladin seems to have the best option in this example, but even he is not going to prevail unless the caster is too arrogant to have a 2nd or 3rd spell ready.

I believe Trinam has stated that an Urban BArbarian archer could potentially spell sunder with a bow. I believe it takes, in this case 3 levels of Fighter (Archer) so you can sunder with a bow.

Beast Master rangers can get a flying mount by RAW.

Empyreal Knight archetype for the paladin also gets a flying mount by RAW.

To date I've yet to get a Cavalier a flying mount without the leadership feat. Believe me I've tried.


Poor Fighter. I am sure a potion of fly works, but those are expensive, and if the wizard is already setup he would just dispel it after the fighter gets half way across.

Fighter need archetypes that allow them more problem solving options.


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If the wizard has managed to put himself into such a defensive position that no one can get to him, why does anyone care? The wizard can't hurt you either. So what has actually happened is that the wizard has gotten so scared of the insignificant fighter that he blocked himself off and neither one can deal with the other. The fighter can just leave because no one is going to win this.

The fighter wielding an adamantine weapon can cut through the wall of {pick a natural material}. I know it seems odd, but the rules do allow for that. Ignoring any amount of hardness is a nice effect. Ignoring a high amount of hardness is even better.

A cape of the mountebank will allow the fighter to bring the rest of the party past the wall of force. Sure, the fighter won't be able to attack (can't even use attacks of opportunity) but that restriction doesn't apply to everyone else. If someone else has the cape, then they can bring the fighter with them and he can lay waste to the silly wizard that thought he could stop the fighter with something as trivial as a wall.

A fighter built to take on casters will stop the wizard. That's the problem with these discussions. For every move, there is a counter move. Instead of actually looking at how things would actually work in a game, we see hyperbole thrown around. When an actual build is thrown out there that counters the hyperbole, it is either ignored or hand-waved away with more hyperbole.

The simple fact is that fighters suck in some games and rock in others. In other games, the classes are relatively balanced. The only games I have seen one class (not player, but class) dominate, are the ones where the GMs ignore the rules (intentionally or not) or build encounters specifically that favor casters. In a well run game with encounters that are designed to give everyone something to do, there isn't any domination. I know because I have seen and done it for years. I have met people that thought that casters were the bees knees, then when they come into a game where the rules are applied equally, their casters aren't really all that anymore. They are still powerful and can still fo a lot. They just aren't demigods anymore.


I think Tark's point, at least I hope I am reading him correctly, is that the fighter has it hard than other classes without magic items. Now if he is saying a fighter can't do anything, and is basically useless out side of fighting then I disagree.


wraithstrike wrote:
I think Tark's point, at least I hope I am reading him correctly, is that the fighter has it hard than other classes without magic items. Now if he is saying a fighter can't do anything, and is basically useless out side of fighting then I disagree.

For some things, like getting past walls, he does have a harder time than other classes. That's probably intentional. Every class needs a weakness. The fighter can deal with fighting without a lot of investment in magic items, if he's built that way. It's unrealistic to expect that though since every character is supposed to have a bunch of wealth to spend on stuff anyway.

The casters are also very gear dependent, regardless of what some people want to claim. Even Tark mentioned that the wizard should have a bunch of scrolls. That's gear. In order to get their DCs up for their spells, they will need more gear. I would love to see what a wizard restricted to mundane items would do against a fighter restricted to mundane items. It would be interesting. The easiest way to do this would be to use PFS rules so that the wizard doesn't also have scribe scroll. It would be unfair to take away a class feature if someone wanted to do this.


wraithstrike wrote:
I think Tark's point, at least I hope I am reading him correctly, is that the fighter has it hard than other classes without magic items. Now if he is saying a fighter can't do anything, and is basically useless out side of fighting then I disagree.

Oh, no there's lots a fighter can do. You don't need a build to prove it.

It's just extraordinarily inefficient when you sit down and compare them to others. And sometimes they can just back fire on you.

And again you don't need casters.

How about the invisible quasit minion who snatches the fighters bow off his back and teleports away just seconds before his Balor boss shows up and pees fire on the fighter while giving him the finger from ten stories up? I hope he brought a spare.

Oh wait he's got boots of flying? Cool beans! What's the caster level on them? I've got all these dispel magic SLA's just doing nothing.

Going to run for cover? That's fine. I'm an immortal creature of incredible intellect and absolute malice. I can wait.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:


For some things, like getting past walls, he does have a harder time than other classes. That's probably intentional. Every class needs a weakness. The fighter can deal with fighting without a lot of investment in magic items, if he's built that way. It's unrealistic to expect that though since every character is supposed to have a bunch of wealth to spend on stuff anyway.

That's sort of the thing though. With some exceptions no one else has to spend money and potentially compromise their own defenses.

And the funniest bit is I've cited ways that other martial classes could use their own abilities without spending a single copper to overcome the kind of challenges that even the 3/4 casters and alchemists yawn at.

Though you do pose an interesting challenge. I think, you'll find it has very bad results for the fighter.

Anyway, I'm done for now I've made promises I absolutely must keep.


Ok, one last thign and I promise I'll go away.

We can assume that the fighter has support. We don't have to assume a vacuum here. All in all I'd rather buff my fighter then gate in a pit fiend. Less hazardous to the state of my soul.

However just how much support will he require in comparison to the paladin, ranger, barbarian, cavalier?

Shadow Lodge

If you take away ALL gear, the fighter is much less efficient, unless he was specifically built as an unarmed fighter.

However, he's still ahead of the wizard, who is reduced to ineffectually flailing about and crying about his lost spellbook.


Kthulhu wrote:

If you take away ALL gear, the fighter is much less efficient, unless he was specifically built as an unarmed fighter.

However, he's still ahead of the wizard, who is reduced to ineffectually flailing about and crying about his lost spellbook.

Meanwhile the sorcerer, if naked, is shagging the fighter's and wizards sisters, girlfriends and moms. All at once.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I used to play a Dwarf Fighter back in 2e. I had the brewing skill and used it often when not in combat. The GM loved my antics and gave the party moral bonuses for attacks based on my brewing success levels. Its about being creative with what you have available. I think the fighter is fine the way it is. I usually find the player to be lacking. Remember rules are made to be broken and rules lawyers ruin any game.


TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think Tark's point, at least I hope I am reading him correctly, is that the fighter has it hard than other classes without magic items. Now if he is saying a fighter can't do anything, and is basically useless out side of fighting then I disagree.

Oh, no there's lots a fighter can do. You don't need a build to prove it.

It's just extraordinarily inefficient when you sit down and compare them to others. And sometimes they can just back fire on you.

And again you don't need casters.

How about the invisible quasit minion who snatches the fighters bow off his back and teleports away just seconds before his Balor boss shows up and pees fire on the fighter while giving him the finger from ten stories up? I hope he brought a spare.

Oh wait he's got boots of flying? Cool beans! What's the caster level on them? I've got all these dispel magic SLA's just doing nothing.

Going to run for cover? That's fine. I'm an immortal creature of incredible intellect and absolute malice. I can wait.

By the time I am fighting balors I hope invisible creatures are not an issue. I also expect to have a backup weapon. Snatching a bow off his back would require the Steal CMB, and I don't think the quasit is going to beat the fighter's CMD anyway. It is not like the fighter is soloing the balor anyway. If he is then that balor better win initiative if the fighter is level 20.

I also think a well-made fight beats the quasit on init if he does somehow get the bow. You stab the quasit in the face after the surprise round and get your bow back.


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TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I think Tark's point, at least I hope I am reading him correctly, is that the fighter has it hard than other classes without magic items. Now if he is saying a fighter can't do anything, and is basically useless out side of fighting then I disagree.

Oh, no there's lots a fighter can do. You don't need a build to prove it.

It's just extraordinarily inefficient when you sit down and compare them to others. And sometimes they can just back fire on you.

And again you don't need casters.

How about the invisible quasit minion who snatches the fighters bow off his back and teleports away just seconds before his Balor boss shows up and pees fire on the fighter while giving him the finger from ten stories up? I hope he brought a spare.

Oh wait he's got boots of flying? Cool beans! What's the caster level on them? I've got all these dispel magic SLA's just doing nothing.

Going to run for cover? That's fine. I'm an immortal creature of incredible intellect and absolute malice. I can wait.

Contrived scenarios don't prove anything other than you can contrive of a scenario where a particular character won't do well.

What if the fighter you've mentioned happens to be a half-orc with all those scent feats and the variety of blind-fight feats?

What about a 10th level fighter going up against 8 minotaurs? He's probably going to mop the floor with them without any problems. Would a 10th level wizard have a chance against 3 invisible stalkers if he didn't know they were there?

This is exactly what I was talking about. We can contrive whatever scenarios we want and throw around whatever theoretical caster/fighter we want, and never come to a conclusion because everything is situational.


Kthulhu wrote:

If you take away ALL gear, the fighter is much less efficient, unless he was specifically built as an unarmed fighter.

However, he's still ahead of the wizard, who is reduced to ineffectually flailing about and crying about his lost spellbook.

I specifically mentioned only having mundane gear because I don't think it would be fair to strip one character almost completely while allowing another to have all his class features.


TarkXT wrote:

Ok, one last thign and I promise I'll go away.

We can assume that the fighter has support. We don't have to assume a vacuum here. All in all I'd rather buff my fighter then gate in a pit fiend. Less hazardous to the state of my soul.

However just how much support will he require in comparison to the paladin, ranger, barbarian, cavalier?

That's entirely dependent on the situation. You can come up with hundreds of scenarios where the fighter won't do as well as they will and I can come up with hundreds more where the fighter will do better.

We're also going to be doing a lot of arguing over the word "support." It's the same thing as when people argue over how much one character contributes compared to another. We'll never agree on this.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
What do you mean simplest encounters?

counters

Let's start with a canyon. On the other side of the canyon is a caster with any variety of arrow screwing spells if you want to get cheeky and shoot at him.

Or spell effects like wall of force, or iron, or just flying foes. Things like that.

That isn't to say a barbarian can do better in all of those situations, but he can in many. Rangers and Paladins cover others easily enough.

Clearly this battle it pitted and you would be stupid to engage a foe on his terms. I would retreat. I would then find a tribe of Orcs or worse and use diplomacy and their own base nature against them to make them a bane to the canyon caster. You can come up with all sorts of encounters that supposedly prove how bad a fighter is or any other class for that matter. Its a game of fantasy. Get creative and think outside the rules. If your GM is not gonna reward you for such efforts then he may be an ass.


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Tomb wrote:
Clearly this battle it pitted and you would be stupid to engage a foe on his terms. I would retreat. I would then find a tribe of Orcs or worse and use diplomacy and their own base nature against them to make them a bane to the canyon caster.

Oh if only you were some class with a useful number of skillpoints per level and diplomacy as a class skill and maybe even some reason not to dump Charisma.


It's actually very easy to build a fighter that has dedicated his life to fighting demons and devils. I put one together in a very short amount of time just to show. It's obviously not 100% perfect because I didn't spend that much time on it. The point isn't perfection though. It's to show that you don't need perfection to handle it. Here is what Tark thinks will stop a 20th level fighter and a 20th level fighter that can deal with the problem. The quasit eats an action from the fighter that knows exactly where it is the moment it gets within 30 feet.

Combine this fighter with the previous fighter I posted and you have a very deadly combination already. There should still be two more characters in the group to be able to reasonably handle the balor. Do we need two more fighters?

fighter:

BRICKHOUSE CR 19
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Unbreakable) 20
LE Large Humanoid (Orc)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Scent; Perception +31
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 34, touch 16, flat-footed 31. . (+14 armor, +3 Dex, -1 size, +4 natural, +4 deflection)
hp 284 (20d10+140)
Fort +24, Ref +14, Will +19
Defensive Abilities Stalwart, Unflinching +5; DR 5/&#151;; Immune mind-affecting
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +5 Defending, Guardian, Speed Cold Iron Greataxe +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 (3d6+43/20/x3)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +11) +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+13/20/x3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 24/32, Dex 12/16, Con 18/24, Int 10, Wis 14/20, Cha 8/14
Base Atk +20; CMB +32; CMD 49
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Diehard, Endurance, Furious Focus, Greater Blind-Fight, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Greater Weapon Specialization: Greataxe, Heroic Defiance (3/day), Heroic Recovery (4/day), Improved Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Keen Scent, Penetrating Strike, Power Attack -6/+12, Scent of Fear, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Greataxe
Traits Conspiracy Hunter: Perception, Legacy of Sand
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +8, Escape Artist +0, Fly -2, Intimidate +27, Perception +31, Ride +0, Stealth -4, Swim +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Armor Mastery (Ex), Armor Training 2 (Ex), Miraculous Recovery, Quick Recovery (Ex), Unlimited Endurance (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +11), +5 Defending, Guardian, Speed Cold Iron Greataxe, +5 Fortification, Heavy Full Plate, Adamantine Arrows (20), Cold Iron Arrows (20), Silversheen Arrows (20); Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots, Winged, Boots, Winged, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Efficient Quiver (61 @ 12 lbs), Headband of Mental Prowess, WIS & CHA +6, Manual of Bodily Health, +3, Manual of Gainful Exercise, +4, Ring of Protection, +4, Shoanti War Paint (Red)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Adamantine Arrows - 0/20
Cold Iron Arrows - 0/20
Heroic Defiance (3/day) - 0/3
Heroic Recovery (4/day) - 0/4
Shoanti War Paint (Red) - 0/1
Silversheen Arrows - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Mastery (Ex) DR 5/- while wearing armor
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at -1 to -9 HP.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greater Blind-Fight Melee attacks treat total concealment as 20%, and invisible ranged attackers you have pinpointed gain no benefits against you.
Greater Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 10 points of DR/? or 5 points of DR/–.
Heroic Defiance (3/day) 1/day, delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.
Heroic Recovery (4/day) 1/day, attempt an extra Fort save against a harmful condition or affliction.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting attacks You are immune to Mind-Affecting attacks.
Improved Blind-Fight Melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment and can still reroll for total concealment. Invisible attackers within 30' you have pinpointed gain no advantages to hit you with ranged attacks.
Miraculous Recovery When making save vs ongoing effect, may roll twice and choose better roll.
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/?.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Recovery (Ex) At 11th level, an unbreakable needs only 15 minutes of rest or to be subject to a healing spell or effect to recover from the fatigued condition. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Scent of Fear +2 to hit shaken or frightened opponents, and can detect them at twice the normal range. +2 to Will saves if you can smell fear.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Unflinching +5 (Ex) +5 Will save vs. mind-affecting effects
Unlimited Endurance (Ex) When exhausted, only suffer the effects of fatigued.
Vital Strike Standard action: x4 weapon damage dice.

balor:

This winged fiend's horned head and fanged visage present the perfection of the demonic form, fire spurting from its flesh.
--------------------
DEMON, BALOR CR 20
Male Demon, Balor
CE Large Outsider (Chaotic, Demon, Evil, Extraplanar)
Init +11; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +38
Aura Flaming Body, Unholy Aura (Constant) (DC 28)
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 36, touch 20, flat-footed 29. . (+7 Dex, -1 size, +16 natural, +4 deflection)
hp 370 (20d10+260)
Fort +29, Ref +17, Will +25
DR 15/cold iron, 15/good; Immune electricity, fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 31
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 40 ft., Flight (90 feet, Good)
Melee +1 Vorpal Flaming whip +30/+25/+20 (1d4+7/20/x2) and
. . +1 Vorpal Unholy Longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+13/19-20/x2) and
. . Slam x2 (Demon, Balor) +26 x2 (1d10+6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +31/+26/+21/+16 (1d4+12/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities Blasphemy (1/day), Dispel Magic, Greater (At will), Dominate Monster (At will), Fire Storm (1/day), Implosion (1/day), Power Word Stun (At will), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Telekinesis) (3/day), Summon Monster (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower demo, Telekinesis (At will), Teleport, Greater (self plus 50 lbs. of objects on, True Seeing (Constant), Unholy Aura (Constant) (DC 28)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 35, Dex 25, Con 36, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 27
Base Atk +20; CMB +33; CMD 54
Feats Cleave, Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack -6/+12, Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Telekinesis (3/day), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Longsword
Skills Acrobatics +27, Bluff +31, Diplomacy +31, Fly +32, Intimidate +31, Knowledge (History) +27, Knowledge (Nobility) +27, Knowledge (Planes) +30, Knowledge (Religion) +27, Perception +38, Sense Motive +30, Stealth +26, Use Magic Device +31
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic; Telepathy (100 feet)
SQ Death Throes (DC 33) (Su), Entangle (Ex), Vorpal Strike (Su), Whip Mastery (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Vorpal Flaming whip, +1 Vorpal Unholy Longsword;
--------------------
ECOLOGY
--------------------
Environment Any (abyss)
Organization Solitary or warband (1 balor and 2-5 glabrezus)
Treasure Standard (+1 unholy longsword, +1 flaming whip, other treasure)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round) You may make up to 8 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (15/cold iron) You have Damage Reduction against all except Cold Iron attacks.
Damage Reduction (15/good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Death Throes (DC 33) (Su) When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of fire that deals 100 points of damage (half fire, half unholy damage) to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 33 halves). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Entangle (Ex) If a balor strikes a Medium or smaller foe with its whip, the balor can immediately attempt a grapple check without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the balor wins the check, it draws the foe into an adjacent square. The foe gains the grappled
Flaming Body (Su) A balor's body is covered in dancing flames. Anyone striking a balor with a natural weapon or unarmed strike takes 1d6 points of fire damage. A creature that grapples a balor or is grappled by one takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round the grappl
Flight (90 feet, Good) You can fly!
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Immunity to Fire You are immune to fire damage.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Telekinesis (3/day) Spell-like ability is cast as a swift action up to 3/day.
Spell Resistance (31) You have Spell Resistance.
Summon Monster (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower demon 100%) (1/day) (Sp) A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature's entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no cr
Telepathy (100 feet) (Su) Communicate telepathically if the target has a language.
Unholy Aura (Constant) (DC 28) (Sp) Defense against good creatures and lesser globe of invulnerability.
Vorpal Strike (Su) Any slashing weapon a balor wields (including its standard longsword and whip) gains the vorpal weapon quality. Weapons retain this quality for one hour after the balor releases the weapon, but after this the weapon reverts to its standard magical qu
Whip Mastery (Ex) A balor treats a whip as a light weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting, and can inflict lethal damage on a foe regardless of the foe's armor.

quasit:

Ram horns curl back from the twisted head of this tiny winged demon, and its body is thin and wiry.
--------------------
DEMON, QUASIT CR 2
Male Demon, Quasit
CE Tiny Outsider (Chaotic, Demon, Evil, Extraplanar)
Init +6; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 14. . (+2 Dex, +2 size, +2 natural)
hp 16 (3d10); Fast Healing 2
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +4
DR 5/good or cold iron; Immune electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft., Flight (50 feet, Perfect)
Melee Bite (Demon, Quasit) +7 (1d4-1/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Demon, Quasit) +7 x2 (1d3-1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +7 (1-1/20/x2)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Poison: Claw—Injury (DC 11)
Spell-Like Abilities Cause Fear 30ft radius (1/day), Commune (1/week), Detect Good (At will), Detect Magic (At will), Invisibility (At will)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 12
Feats Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +6, Fly +20, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Perception +7, Stealth +16
Languages Abyssal, Common; Telepathy (Touch)
SQ Alternate Form (Su)

--------------------
ECOLOGY
--------------------
Environment Any (abyss)
Organization Solitary or flock (2-12)
Treasure Standard
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Alternate Form (Su) You can assume the form of a bat, monstrous centipede, toad or wolf.
Cause Fear 30ft radius (1/day) (Sp) Cause Fear (DC 11) 1/day, 30ft radius
Commune (1/week) (Sp) Commune 1/week, ask 6 questions
Damage Reduction (5/cold iron or good) You have Damage Reduction against all except Good or Cold Iron attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Detect Good (At will) (Sp) As the spell. Caster level 6th
Detect Magic (At will) (Sp) As the spell. Caster level 6th
Fast Healing 2 (Ex) You heal damage every round if you have > 1 HP.
Flight (50 feet, Perfect) You can fly!
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Invisibility (At will) (Sp) As the spell, self only. Caster level 6th
Poison: Claw—Injury (DC 11) (Ex) Poison deals 1d2 DEX damage, 1/round for 6 rds, cure 2 consecutive saves.
Telepathy (Touch) (Su) Communicate telepathically if the target has a language.


Atarlost wrote:
Tomb wrote:
Clearly this battle it pitted and you would be stupid to engage a foe on his terms. I would retreat. I would then find a tribe of Orcs or worse and use diplomacy and their own base nature against them to make them a bane to the canyon caster.
Oh if only you were some class with a useful number of skillpoints per level and diplomacy as a class skill and maybe even some reason not to dump Charisma.

Scroll back and look at the fighter I built a page or so ago. He would fulfill that, and I dumped his Charisma. He started with an 8 at first level.


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Because you bring up a good point about contrived scenarios and why they're essentially pointless. Let's do away with them, and anything else that is situational.

Since we're removing situational stuff from the debate, let's go ahead and simply boil it all down and get some results. I do like conclusions after all.

So no contrived scenarios.

No magic items (not every game has the same wealth standards, so why bother arguing with them. Once we have some actual results based purely on the class we can discuss the items)

No traits. (Some GM's don't allow them, other's require specific ones. Some campaigns require a character to take from a limited selection. Therefore we can't have them)

No leadership. (Gm's handle this feat differently)

No races. (Races are often one of the things restricted and pretty much any class can take racial feats.)

No Golarian (Not every GM runs in Golarion so why should we assume that?)

No 3/4 casting or pure casting. (This isn't a caster-martial disparity it's a martial-martial disparity. Ranger/Pally casting is fine.)

Otherwise, assume all archetypes and feats but they must be cited. IF you cite the ability of an archetype I ask that you please note what ability was lost to gain that ability.

Now what we're going to do here is present a series of problems that ask for very simple yes or no and why answers to some of the more common issues that face melee/ranged fighters. Cite how to deal with them utilizing the means at your disposal being sure to cite the feats, class ability, spell, mundane item, or tactic and noting the minimum leve that it can be done. If your solution is "depends on the situation" then it's a no. I understand that a fighter cannot deal with all of these situations what I hope to prove (or be disproved) is that in comparison other martial classes can deal with them more efficiently while continuing to match him or at least compete with him at what he does best; fighting.

Can it deal with:
Opening a Locked Wooden Door

Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door

Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)

Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.

Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.

Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?

Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon

Crossing Lava

Being in Lava

Killing an invisible enemy.

Killing a burrowing enemy

Killing a teleporting enemy.

Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC

Moving through natural hindering terrain.

Moving through unnatural hindering terrain

Being underwater

Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)

A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage

Being left with an improvised weapon.

Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.

Magical effects on other party members.

Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).

Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).

Once we have a good idea of jsut how well a fighter can do we can then compare it to other martial classes adn make an objective determination from there. If others ahve common scenarios they'd like to add that would actually test what a fighter is capable of handling feel free to do so.

Edited for clarification.


The problem with a nigh-unbreakable door, is that the wall it's attached to had also better be nigh-unbreakable, or the character is going to work on the door, realize it's unbreakable, and then start on the wall. Same problem with a force wall: can't break the wall/it would take too long, dig under it.


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you guys miss the point of DND Its a team effort you need a skill monkey a figther a cleric and a mage compareing any one aginst another is a waste of time


Blue Star wrote:
The problem with a nigh-unbreakable door, is that the wall it's attached to had also better be nigh-unbreakable, or the character is going to work on the door, realize it's unbreakable, and then start on the wall. Same problem with a force wall: can't break the wall/it would take too long, dig under it.

Fixed the nigh unbreakable door bit. Thank you for pointing that out. Also clarified the force wall.


vidmaster wrote:
you guys miss the point of DND Its a team effort you need a skill monkey a figther a cleric and a mage compareing any one aginst another is a waste of time

While I do agree with the heart of your post I think the game has long since past the point of absolutely requiring the standard FWRC group.


well maybe but i don't think the classes are designed to be one on one against each other

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
vidmaster wrote:
you guys miss the point of DND

How arrogant of you, to tell people what the point of their game is.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
vidmaster wrote:
you guys miss the point of DND
How arrogant of you, to tell people what the point of their game is.

We were all young and naive at some point. Give him a break.

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