Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Why all the Fighter hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

1,651 to 1,672 of 1,672 << first < prev | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
Read the mounted combat rules. It states that the mount charges and the character gains the +2/-2 as the normal charge rules. The pounce rules say the character must charge.
But you can charge while mounted. If you couldn't, you wouldn't be able to claim double damage from a lance. Spirited Charge wouldn't even work if you couldn't.

You can't use this logic because the descriptions of these two tell you you gain these benefits while mounted only. Barbs don't get pounce while mounted.


shallowsoul wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
Read the mounted combat rules. It states that the mount charges and the character gains the +2/-2 as the normal charge rules. The pounce rules say the character must charge.
But you can charge while mounted. If you couldn't, you wouldn't be able to claim double damage from a lance. Spirited Charge wouldn't even work if you couldn't.
You can't use this logic because the descriptions of these two tell you you gain these benefits while mounted only. Barbs don't get pounce while mounted.

Barbs get pounce when they charge. You are able to charge while mounted, so Barbs get pounce while mounted and charging.

Silver Crusade

TarkXT wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.
No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.
rules don't say this. Your character obviously directs the mount though since you the player move the horse on the battle grid. The rules do say however that your mount charges. Interpret it however you want so you can do 1000 damage. Doesn't make it right. Charging on your mount is different than on foot. Different language different rules different abilities.

Speaking of different languages let's look at some.

Mighty Charge wrote:
At 11th level, a cavalier learns to make devastating charge attacks while mounted.

So how would this work then? Does the cavalier have to be mounted by someone else to make it work? How can he make charge attacks while mounted if it's the mount making the charge?

Supreme Charge wrote:
At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance).

Odd, how is the cavalier making a charge attack if he's mounted? Isn't he unable to do that since it's the mount making the charge?

You know bob's asking some legitimate questions here.

Unseat wrote:
When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal.
There's that darned language...

You really need to step back and think about something. Notice how the rules of the cav actually spell it out specifically for the class. By your logic the info should be common logic do why the need to spell it out. You're pulling an Ashiel here. Might want to remove those shades because they are impairing your reading comprehension. Also if we follow your logic then you can only move your speed and not that of your mount. You can't cherry pick bits and pieces of the rules

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

the thing i would love for fighters to get, is a fighter only level 10 ability that allows a fighter to add qualities onto his weapons.

like:
+4 damage
+1 crit threat
+2 to sunder attempts
ect...

add a little flavor to the reasoning as to why they are gitting the bonuses like "folded steel: gives +1 crit threat ability and +4 damage aginst unarmored foes"

give it a craft check with a bonus based on your fighter level and i think that would fix the blandness of fighters without making them over powering or broken.

seems like people arnt saying fighters suck, because they dont, and i will say that fighters are my favorite class. so i would like to see a little flavor added to the class.


shallowsoul wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.
No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.
rules don't say this. Your character obviously directs the mount though since you the player move the horse on the battle grid. The rules do say however that your mount charges. Interpret it however you want so you can do 1000 damage. Doesn't make it right. Charging on your mount is different than on foot. Different language different rules different abilities.

Speaking of different languages let's look at some.

Mighty Charge wrote:
At 11th level, a cavalier learns to make devastating charge attacks while mounted.

So how would this work then? Does the cavalier have to be mounted by someone else to make it work? How can he make charge attacks while mounted if it's the mount making the charge?

Supreme Charge wrote:
At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance).

Odd, how is the cavalier making a charge attack if he's mounted? Isn't he unable to do that since it's the mount making the charge?

You know bob's asking some legitimate questions here.

Unseat wrote:
When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal.
There's
...

What? That doesn't make any sense at all. The mounted combat rules spell out that you move at the mount's speed.


TarkXT wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:


We can argue and probably agree that it would look really silly to have a dual lance wielding cavalier making 8 charge attacks against 8 different opponents when charging. According to the rules, it is legit.
And honestly by the time he's doing this Mr Wizard's already crafting entire planes of existence as summer homes. So I'm okay with this.

I just said that it looks silly. I'm glad that I don't have players that build for this. I don't look forward to the arguments about realism from the wizard player. It works whether or not it looks silly.


Mounted combat is easy to understand. The rider has the mount's speed and form of movement. The rider and his mount have their own attack routines. You need to see how the environment affects the mount's movement and then you need to look at which attack routine you are using (melee or ranged). Then follow those rules. One thing that can get confusing is combining ranged and melee attacks while mounted.

If you couldn't charge while mounted, then several feats that do not require being a cavalier become useless.


shallowsoul wrote:
You really need to step back and think about something. Notice how the rules of the cav actually spell it out specifically for the class. By your logic the info should be common logic do why the need to spell it out.Might want to remove those shades because they are impairing your reading comprehension. Also if we follow your logic then you can only move your speed and not that of your mount. You can't cherry pick bits and pieces of the rules

Speaking of reading comprehension you'll note I responded to the idea that mounted characters cannot use a charge action, when it is clearly intended through the language on various abilities and feats.

You are making a completely different argument. You are arguing that because it is clearly stated that you have to be mounted to use those feats that you cannot use pounce, or for that matter radiant charge, banner bonus, or any other charge based ability mounted unless it specifically says so. Which is equally absurd.

Silver Crusade

TarkXT wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
You really need to step back and think about something. Notice how the rules of the cav actually spell it out specifically for the class. By your logic the info should be common logic do why the need to spell it out.Might want to remove those shades because they are impairing your reading comprehension. Also if we follow your logic then you can only move your speed and not that of your mount. You can't cherry pick bits and pieces of the rules

Speaking of reading comprehension you'll note I responded to the idea that mounted characters cannot use a charge action, when it is clearly intended through the language on various abilities and feats.

You are making a completely different argument. You are arguing that because it is clearly stated that you have to be mounted to use those feats that you cannot use pounce, or for that matter radiant charge, banner bonus, or any other charge based ability mounted unless it specifically says so. Which is equally absurd.

There are certain abilities that are associated and required to be mounted in order to use. Pounce is not one of these abilities that you are allowed to do while mounted.

I will get a clarification from the designers.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:


I will get a clarification from the designers.

Sorry, but you have to wait a little - I asked a few days ago if I can have a pony, and they're yet to respond.

Silver Crusade

Well I believe it has been clarified just by reading the Mounted Combat rules. I believe they haven't responded because they knew the answer was there the whole time and just waited for us to find it.


shallowsoul wrote:

I don't understand where all the fighter hate comes from. The fighter is probably the single most versatile class out there because there are so many builds that one can make from a fighter. They be the common board and sword, two-weapon fighters, ranged type fighters, grapple experts, etc...

What's the problem?

Fighters are freaking awesome. When I build a fighter I like to make him human with INT at least 13 so I get a good selection of skills in addition to the combaty goodness. I'm also partial to Samurai and Cavaliers in general but that's more a matter of personal taste rather than a value judgement on which class is the most fun to play.


Personally I think the main issue is one of perception. Not just the lack of the class skill although they should have that, but that the other martial classes have more focused or better abilities.

Most people's problem with a fighter(other than a lack of skills) is from the idea that the class is easy. Its not its actually harder to build/play a competitive fighter past mid level(around 8) than a wizard. I think perhaps the classes own versatility play against it. Yes, a barbarian does more damage(while raging). yes. a cavalier has better skills and fights better mounted. yes, a ranger and paladin are so much more powerful than the other martial classes that they almost seem designed for a different game(spell use, extremely powerful class abilities, animal companions, and the fact that a ranger makes a more effective rogue than most rogues).

BUT when it some to being more than a one trick(maybe two in a few cases) combatant the fighter has it in spades. Nobody else has the feats to pick up multiple fighting styles(archer and two weapon fighter etc etc). The only real alternative is to give every fighting style its own class the swordsman, the dual wielder and so on. All the other martial classes are focused while fighters are generalists able to become whatever you need and generalists are always weaker(or at least perceived as weaker) in this game.

Having said all this I'm a GM who gives fighter perception and 4 skill points. Does it overbalance the class or make it to powerful, not in my opinion. But I do want the rogue and monk completely revamped.


proftobe wrote:


Having said all this I'm a GM who gives fighter perception and 4 skill points. Does it overbalance the class or make it to powerful, not in my opinion. But I do want the rogue and monk completely revamped.

perception, tumble and 4 skill/level is the only chnage i would do to the fighter.


Fighters are the best TWF users. You have weapons specialization and weapon training. Use the same weapon and it really adds up. They even have the spare feats to get an exotic weapon, give you ten guessed (19-20x3).

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It must be necromancy week.


Charon is riding. The end is drawing near.

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Fighters are the best TWF users. You have weapons specialization and weapon training. Use the same weapon and it really adds up. They even have the spare feats to get an exotic weapon, give you ten guessed (19-20x3).

A slight impediment to that is that it will have to be light weapons, lest you incur an additional -2 to attack rolls. But I guess that's acceptable if you have falcatas.


Threeshades wrote:

Charon is riding. The end is drawing near.

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Fighters are the best TWF users. You have weapons specialization and weapon training. Use the same weapon and it really adds up. They even have the spare feats to get an exotic weapon, give you ten guessed (19-20x3).
A slight impediment to that is that it will have to be light weapons, lest you incur an additional -2 to attack rolls. But I guess that's acceptable if you have falcatas.

A -2 isn't all that bad. Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon focus makes up for that as does Weapon Training or an archetype. Even then, a -2 isn't all that bad.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
pipedreamsam wrote:
They are pretty much only good in combat, I want to see an out of combat niche for the fighter.

This comes up a lot but it's seldom articulated well. What kind of niche are you looking for? You've got skills, you've got roleplaying, or are you just looking with envy on the funky magical powers set?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Oh Jesus, not this thread again!


Gorbacz wrote:
Oh Jesus, not this thread again!

At least it's not a new one.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm honestly not sure which is worse.


Fighter for the win. Keep your magic-users and sneak-thiefs.

Silver Crusade

Mergy wrote:
There's also the famous one level dip for a bonus feat and heavy armour proficiency. And the brand new dip of unarmed fighter for full crane style by level 3.

...and a one level dip of the lore master to become an instant skill monkey. I couldnt imagine building a character anymore without a dip into lore warden.

You want your out-of combat niché ? There you have it.

1,651 to 1,672 of 1,672 << first < prev | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Why all the Fighter hate? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.