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Why all the Fighter hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

1,601 to 1,650 of 1,672 << first < prev | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | next > last >>

We tried to convince the Cavie to play a Halfling Lancer, riding a St. Bernard. But he wasn't having any of that.


loaba wrote:
We tried to convince the Cavie to play a Halfling Lancer, riding a St. Bernard. But he wasn't having any of that.

Riding giant bats is pretty cool. I had a goblin archer that did that. Rode around on a medium sized giant bat, peppering folks with arrows as they went. Good times. :D EDIT: Mounted archers tend to be nice as you can move while you shoot, and as long as your mound does nothing more than a double move you don't take any penalties. So the bat just kind of putzed about 60 ft. per round in a comfortable speed while the goblin rained little 1d6+X arrows down on folks. The goblin was a Fighter (*gasp*) with the Animal Cohort feat (remodeled from the 3.5 Web Enhancement for Pathfinder), which is how he got his bat. He was a fun little guy.

Gnome paladins are exceptionally nice for this sort of thing. -2 Str is typical for small folks, and the +2 Con and Charisma just scream Paladin. Toss 'em on a riding dog, dire badger, giant ferret, dire hamster, or something similar and watch the fun begin. :P


How can you pounce from horseback? Isn't your mount the one charging?


In the RD it says "if your mount chargers you take the ac penalty associated with a charge". It also says "if you attack at the end of the charge you get the bonus".

So how are people pouncing on horseback when they aren't charging?


ATron9000 wrote:
How can you pounce from horseback? Isn't your mount the one charging?

Having just re-read the rules, it turns out you don't actually initiate the charge, and you don't spend any actions. However, this makes mounted combat even gnarlier, as you are basically ensuring that you can full-attack even without pounce, because at this point you get your normal actions, have charged. Apparently there is nothing stopping you from charging, then full-attacking, while mounted. You don't even need pounce.

So apparently having pounce while on horseback changes nothing, and is just a bit redundant at this point. You don't need pounce on horseback, 'cause you can still full-attack after your mount charges, and even get the damage bonus on your lance.

Yay mounted combat. O.o


No, it says you can only make one attack if the horse takes a move action.

Silver Crusade

Your Pounce ability is not transferred to your mount.


Ashiel wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
How can you pounce from horseback? Isn't your mount the one charging?

Having just re-read the rules, it turns out you don't actually initiate the charge, and you don't spend any actions. However, this makes mounted combat even gnarlier, as you are basically ensuring that you can full-attack even without pounce, because at this point you get your normal actions, have charged. Apparently there is nothing stopping you from charging, then full-attacking, while mounted. You don't even need pounce.

So apparently having pounce while on horseback changes nothing, and is just a bit redundant at this point. You don't need pounce on horseback, 'cause you can still full-attack after your mount charges, and even get the damage bonus on your lance.

Yay mounted combat. O.o

I think you may have missed something:

Quote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

The advantages to melee mounted combat:

1) You don't take any penalties to attack due to speed
2) You can use options not available to ranged mounted combat, like Overrun, Bull Rush, increased damage from certain weapons, a smart mount can Aid Another

If you take the feat Mounted Skirmisher, you will have plenty of options open up like two-weapon fighting, sword and board, etc

The advantages to ranged mounted combat
1) You can make more attacks without needing a feat chain
2) You are not near the enemy

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
How can you pounce from horseback? Isn't your mount the one charging?

Having just re-read the rules, it turns out you don't actually initiate the charge, and you don't spend any actions. However, this makes mounted combat even gnarlier, as you are basically ensuring that you can full-attack even without pounce, because at this point you get your normal actions, have charged. Apparently there is nothing stopping you from charging, then full-attacking, while mounted. You don't even need pounce.

So apparently having pounce while on horseback changes nothing, and is just a bit redundant at this point. You don't need pounce on horseback, 'cause you can still full-attack after your mount charges, and even get the damage bonus on your lance.

Yay mounted combat. O.o

If you have the Pounce ability your mount doesn't get it unless you have a class or ability that specifically says so or the mount itself has this ability. If you rely on the movement of the mount then you have to follow the movement rules of the mount and not the PC.

You yourself can still charge and pounce with a lance but your mount cannot.


shallowsoul wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
How can you pounce from horseback? Isn't your mount the one charging?

Having just re-read the rules, it turns out you don't actually initiate the charge, and you don't spend any actions. However, this makes mounted combat even gnarlier, as you are basically ensuring that you can full-attack even without pounce, because at this point you get your normal actions, have charged. Apparently there is nothing stopping you from charging, then full-attacking, while mounted. You don't even need pounce.

So apparently having pounce while on horseback changes nothing, and is just a bit redundant at this point. You don't need pounce on horseback, 'cause you can still full-attack after your mount charges, and even get the damage bonus on your lance.

Yay mounted combat. O.o

If you have the Pounce ability your mount doesn't get it unless you have a class or ability that specifically says so or the mount itself has this ability. If you rely on the movement of the mount then you have to follow the movement rules of the mount and not the PC.

You yourself can still charge and pounce with a lance but your mount cannot.

Raw says the mount charges and you gain the +2/-2 as charge and double damage with lance. Pounce states that your character has to charge. When you are on a mount, it is charging, you are riding. It seems pretty clear to me.


Yep. I did miss that bit about your mount moving more than five feet limiting you to 1 attack. So ironically, you can take a full-round action, as long as it doesn't involve making more than one attack. Oh well, that returns it to working like I originally thought it did.

Mah bad.


shallowsoul wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
How can you pounce from horseback? Isn't your mount the one charging?

Having just re-read the rules, it turns out you don't actually initiate the charge, and you don't spend any actions. However, this makes mounted combat even gnarlier, as you are basically ensuring that you can full-attack even without pounce, because at this point you get your normal actions, have charged. Apparently there is nothing stopping you from charging, then full-attacking, while mounted. You don't even need pounce.

So apparently having pounce while on horseback changes nothing, and is just a bit redundant at this point. You don't need pounce on horseback, 'cause you can still full-attack after your mount charges, and even get the damage bonus on your lance.

Yay mounted combat. O.o

If you have the Pounce ability your mount doesn't get it unless you have a class or ability that specifically says so or the mount itself has this ability. If you rely on the movement of the mount then you have to follow the movement rules of the mount and not the PC.

You yourself can still charge and pounce with a lance but your mount cannot.

I think there is an archetype that give somerage powers to the mount, i believe that beast totem would qualify for that archetype.

So AM barbariam still rage-Fly-lance-pounce-kill castys with his giatn bat.


The mount will pounce, the barb will single attack. He is not charging. The mount is charging. The barbarian cannot pounce without using the charge action. To use the charge action you have to use your own movement. The mount is taking the charge action for you. You just gain the numerical effects.


ATron9000 wrote:
The mount will pounce, the barb will single attack. He is not charging. The mount is charging. The barbarian cannot pounce without using the charge action. To use the charge action you have to use your own movement. The mount is taking the charge action for you. You just gain the numerical effects.

How do you come to that conclusion? You can obviously charge while mounted and gain the benefits for that.

Not that I don't think it's incredibly weird to watch someone poke with a lance up to 8 times (dual wielding lances with one having speed), it seems within the rules.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My barbarian takes his charge action at the same time his mount does. :)


Read the mounted combat rules. It states that the mount charges and the character gains the +2/-2 as the normal charge rules. The pounce rules say the character must charge.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
My barbarian takes his charge action at the same time his mount does. :)

sure, but for your barb to take the charge action he must use his movement speed. So they can charge side by side and be awesome.


ATron9000 wrote:
Read the mounted combat rules. It states that the mount charges and the character gains the +2/-2 as the normal charge rules. The pounce rules say the character must charge.

But you can charge while mounted. If you couldn't, you wouldn't be able to claim double damage from a lance. Spirited Charge wouldn't even work if you couldn't.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
Read the mounted combat rules. It states that the mount charges and the character gains the +2/-2 as the normal charge rules. The pounce rules say the character must charge.
But you can charge while mounted. If you couldn't, you wouldn't be able to claim double damage from a lance. Spirited Charge wouldn't even work if you couldn't.

did you read the mounted combat rules? "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance."

See, your mount is charging. YOU must charge to pounce.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Then Spirited Charge does nothing.

Quote:
When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Then Spirited Charge does nothing.

Quote:
When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

the mount is charging. Spirited charge requires the mount to charge. It's a mounted combat feat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

No, Spirited Charge says when you are mounted and using the charge action. Not when your mount is using the charge action.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
No, Spirited Charge says when you are mounted and using the charge action. Not when your mount is using the charge action.

What do the mounted combat rules say? Is your mount not charging? Your character is directing the mount to charge while sitting upon it. What's not clear about this?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Because the specific rule (Spirited Charge) states that YOU must be using the charge action. You directing your mount is the mount using the charge action, not you.


Actually it doesn't say "you" just "when using the charge action ". The charge action described in the mounted combat rules.


The mount does not take the feat, the rider does. That means that the rider needs to be charging. Ride By says the same thing, that you must be mounted and using the charge action. If you couldn't use the charge action, then this feat also would have no benefit. Cavalry Formation wouldn't make any sense at all. The cavalier class wouldn't function and would be considered worse than the 3.5 Samurai.

How would you use the charge action if your mount is the one charging?


He's running! The mount is charging! Your character is guiding it using the ride skill, feats, and class abilities. Your mount must charge to use spirited charge. I mean amirite???? It clearly states that the mount charges in the core rules. Is that false? You both ignore that. It never says you charge under spirited. It says charge action. That's an invalid point going forward.


Charging requires you to move. If you are mounted, you are not the one moving, your mount is. Basically you get your mount's movement rate and your attack sequence when charging.


But, if people love this in their game then I see no problem with it. Just not in mine.


I can repeat the Raw again.

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance."

"If your mount charges"

"When you attack at the end of the(THE as in the aforementioned mount's charge) charge you receive the bonus gained from the charge."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

But you're still not charging. Just gaining benefits from your mount's charge.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
But you're still not charging. Just gaining benefits from your mount's charge.

I see it more like gaining benefits from your mount charging.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Which does not meet the requirements for Spirited Charge. The character must be charging while mounted. Not mounted while his mount charges.


So what happens if you have more benefits from charging than just the simple +2? Specific rules apply for the general charge rules. That would mean that you can pounce when your mount charges because you are gaining the specific benefit that is now applied to the general charge rules.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Which does not meet the requirements for Spirited Charge. The character must be charging while mounted. Not mounted while his mount charges.

"mounted and using the charge action". The charge action described in the mounted combat section which means the mount charges and you apply the +2/-2. Hey, does it not say that?


In the end the problem comes down to which rules take precedence

"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." does this prevent pounce? as pounce isnt a mounted feat so this rule is more specific than pounce as regards mounted combat.

Does your mount charging count you as charging too? or does this only apply to mounted combat feats because its rather obvious as you cant physically charge while mounted that the mounted feats either mean the mount charging or that by the mount charging the charge is transfered to you. However the >5 foot movement rule still applies (as a mounts charge doesnt overrule that, and pounce doesnt either as its not a mounted feat)

In general I would say pounce doesnt work while mounted (you can cite many different rules as to why it wouldnt work) and as such I wouldnt build a mounted pouncer as a GM could legally say it doesnt work due to the ambiguities in the rule system.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So what happens if you have more benefits from charging than just the simple +2? Specific rules apply for the general charge rules. That would mean that you can pounce when your mount charges because you are gaining the specific benefit that is now applied to the general charge rules.

Like what other benefits?

Pounce applies to the creature charging. A mounted charge is your character making an attack at the end of a mount's charge. This includes spirited and ride by. Well ride by is during the charge.


We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.


The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.

that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.


ATron9000 wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So what happens if you have more benefits from charging than just the simple +2? Specific rules apply for the general charge rules. That would mean that you can pounce when your mount charges because you are gaining the specific benefit that is now applied to the general charge rules.

Like what other benefits?

Pounce applies to the creature charging. A mounted charge is your character making an attack at the end of a mount's charge. This includes spirited and ride by. Well ride by is during the charge.

Rhino hide?

Making a Combat Performance Check as a swift action?
Can you use Radiant Charge while mounted?
How would Charge Through work?
The cavalier is loaded with abilities that come into play when mounted and charging. The mount does not actually have the abilities. The character does.

According to the latest FAQ entry about pounce, you can make a full-attack with manufactured weapons at the end of a charge if you have pounce. Notice it doesn't say if your mount has pounce. To use pounce you much be charging. We have already established that when the mount is charging, so is the character (he gets the same benefits). Seems pretty simple to see that the mounted character should also be able to use pounce.

We can argue and probably agree that it would look really silly to have a dual lance wielding cavalier making 8 charge attacks against 8 different opponents when charging. According to the rules, it is legit.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
AlecStorm wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

i love fighters bacuse they switch hit so well. you can make a fighter that can shoot like a ranger, hit like a barbarian, and get 9 attacks in a round with TWF. no other class can do that.

and my god that kicks so much ass in combat. yeah some barbarian on a mount ragelancepouncing is good in theory... but it has blaring weaknesses in combat. a well made fighter could decimate any cr encounter with little issue, put them in a good group with a buff mage and my god you're unstoppable.

the main thing theorycrafters forget... you dont need to hit for 80 billion damage per round, you only need to defeate the encounters for the day.

Can't pounce with manufactured weapons. The pounce ability given by the totem works only on natural attacks (designer clarification).
Pounce works with manufactured weapons.

And some actually wonders how a barbarian with a furious weapon and stuff like Pounce, Come and Get Me, Reckless Abandon and Unexpected Strike, Quick Reflexes and Elemental Rage can outdamage a fighter.

@Others
furious Focus? LOL.
The barbarian need Power attack, Combat reflexes and Improved Crit. Anything else is a bonus.

With two level Horizon Walker and one level Oracle he is immune to fatigued and exhaustion.
Saves? No problems with powers like: Good for What Ails You, Clear Mind, Superstition, Liquid Courage. And she can take Iron will and Improved Iron will.
Wanna be a bit like the fighter? She can take fighter feats like Spellbreaker, Disruptive,
Wanna trip and not having int 13? Strength Surge + Knockdown. Or start 13 int and pick some Combat Maneuver feat + Strength Surge.
AC? A mithral fullplate, Guarded Stance and Beast Totem. Beast Totem that stacks with Barkskin. Not that AC really matters that much when you can boost your DR and pick Raging Vitality.
Speed? You got +10 to speed.
Being useful out of battle, 4 skills per level, knowledge Nature, Survival and perceptions as class skills and stuff like Strength Surge and scent helps. Just getting 4 skills per level helps.

Same with ranger. I wonder how a class with 6 skills per level, spells (scent being one of them) and track and other cool abilities, like finding traps and using stealth can possibly useful out of battle and a class that also get bonus feats and can disregard prereqs when picking these bonus feats. Especially the Urban archetype who can also disable magical traps.
Speed? You got longstrider.
AC? Mithral Fullplate and spells like Barkskin.
Ranger outdamaging a fighter? Not usually, but once they get instant enemy and a favored enemy bonus at +8. Its +8 to attack and damage regardless weapon used and regardless creature targeted and regardless alignment. +8/+8 That is without any feat and any spell that boost the ranger or any Wondrous items.

No, high level rangers and high level barbarians can't possible outdamage a fighter. Not to mention a smiting Paladin.

Seriously, If can't figure out how a ranger or barbarian can be useful out of Battle then you're not much of a player and if you can't figure out how Paladin high on char with diplomacy as a class skill, detect evil, Healing abilities, Mercys, etc. can make him shine out of battle I wonder what kind of games you play.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bob_Loblaw wrote:


We can argue and probably agree that it would look really silly to have a dual lance wielding cavalier making 8 charge attacks against 8 different opponents when charging. According to the rules, it is legit.

And honestly by the time he's doing this Mr Wizard's already crafting entire planes of existence as summer homes. So I'm okay with this.


TarkXT wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:


We can argue and probably agree that it would look really silly to have a dual lance wielding cavalier making 8 charge attacks against 8 different opponents when charging. According to the rules, it is legit.
And honestly by the time he's doing this Mr Wizard's already crafting entire planes of existence as summer homes. So I'm okay with this.

LOL!


ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.

No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.


The_Big_Dog wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.
No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.

rules don't say this. Your character obviously directs the mount though since you the player move the horse on the battle grid. The rules do say however that your mount charges. Interpret it however you want so you can do 1000 damage. Doesn't make it right. Charging on your mount is different than on foot. Different language different rules different abilities.


ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.
No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.
rules don't say this. Your character obviously directs the mount though since you the player move the horse on the battle grid. The rules do say however that your mount charges. Interpret it however you want so you can do 1000 damage. Doesn't make it right. Charging on your mount is different than on foot. Different language different rules different abilities.

The rules clearly state that you direct your mount to charge. Then your character can do whatever he wants with his own actions, including charge. Nowhere in the mounted combat rules are your actions replaced by your mounts actions.


ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
ATron9000 wrote:
The_Big_Dog wrote:
We just had a whole discussion about this not long ago. Nothing stops your character from taking the charge action while mounted, and directing his mount to charge. Remember, you get a full round of actions regardless of what your mount does. So charge to your hearts content.
that doesn't even make sense. Are you saying you and your mount charge separately? Explain how this works. It clearly states that your mount charges.
No, I'm saying that you direct your mount to charge. Then, as your action(s), you choose to charge. Your mount fulfills the movement requirement and you still get all your bonuses for charging as normal. Note, you still only get one charge bonus.
rules don't say this. Your character obviously directs the mount though since you the player move the horse on the battle grid. The rules do say however that your mount charges. Interpret it however you want so you can do 1000 damage. Doesn't make it right. Charging on your mount is different than on foot. Different language different rules different abilities.

Speaking of different languages let's look at some.

Mighty Charge wrote:
At 11th level, a cavalier learns to make devastating charge attacks while mounted.

So how would this work then? Does the cavalier have to be mounted by someone else to make it work? How can he make charge attacks while mounted if it's the mount making the charge?

Supreme Charge wrote:
At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance).

Odd, how is the cavalier making a charge attack if he's mounted? Isn't he unable to do that since it's the mount making the charge?

You know bob's asking some legitimate questions here.

Unseat wrote:
When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal.

There's that darned language again. How can I charge an opponent while mounted. That makes no sense! My feet aren't on the ground! How am I charging? Stupid sexy developers!

Mounted Mastery wrote:
At 8th level, the cavalier ignores the armor check penalty when using the Ride skill, regardless of whether or not the creature he is riding is his mount. Whenever he makes a charge attack while mounted, he receives a +4 dodge bonus to his AC to avoid attacks set against his charge.

Uh oh. There it is again. We better ban the cavalier from games because he is totally not working by RAW. He can do like 1000 damage or something.

Trample wrote:
When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you.

But how the heck do I overrun an opponent while mounted? Oh wait, unless I'm the horse I can do that. But...the horse can't take rider or mounted combat! I call shenanigans on this feat! SHENANIGANS!

*sunglasses pose*


TarkXT wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:


We can argue and probably agree that it would look really silly to have a dual lance wielding cavalier making 8 charge attacks against 8 different opponents when charging. According to the rules, it is legit.
And honestly by the time he's doing this Mr Wizard's already crafting entire planes of existence as summer homes. So I'm okay with this.

THANK REASON (aka TarkXT)!!


You still havent proven that pounce bypasses the 5 foot rule, ie if your mount moves more than 5 feet you can only make a single melee attack.

Pounce is more general than the above rule (as pounce doesnt refer to being mounted but the above rule does), and like in all other rules arguements specific trumps general hence unless you have a mounted combat feat allowing multiple attacks or errata saying pounce overrules the standard mounted combat rules, you cant make more than 1 attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet in a turn.


Michael Foster 989 wrote:

You still havent proven that pounce bypasses the 5 foot rule, ie if your mount moves more than 5 feet you can only make a single melee attack.

Pounce is more general than the above rule (as pounce doesnt refer to being mounted but the above rule does), and like in all other rules arguements specific trumps general hence unless you have a mounted combat feat allowing multiple attacks or errata saying pounce overrules the standard mounted combat rules, you cant make more than 1 attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet in a turn.

Mounted charge movement is more specific than general mount movement. Since charge movement is in question here, the charge specific rules apply first, and charge specific rules include pounce.

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