First!
Darn, never mind...
Seriously.
More fighter skills = good.
...Do fighters really suck?
If so, that's too bad. I like martial classes. I really do.
No, no they don't. They are very good at what they do. Sadly what they do can be very limited.
Honestly I feel kind of challenged right now to mess with Eldritch heritage seeing as fighter seems to be a rather good vessel for the feat chain.
Ash, the CL of the Belt is tied to what it is, not the minimum caster level for the spell required to go onto it.
For the same reason, you can't use a CL 3 for the 2x Belt, or the 3x Belt, which have CL's of 12 and 16 respectively...despite the fact the raw spells required have not changed.
You are effectively distorting the requirements to suit your own interpretation to maximize a ranger's casting, and it is NOT the case here. If minimum caster level was based on the spell, ALL those belts would have 3 CL's.
So your DC to make that Belt is likely going to be 23, which is 5 + 8 CL + 5 (lack of Caster level) + 5 (lack of spell). With a penalty to your Int of -3, unless you have an artificial boost of +3 to your Spellcraft skill (I'm assuming +2 Masterwork), you aren't going to be able to make it. You are 3 levels behind. In effect, if you can't get a + Competency item, you're going to be consistently behind the curve, and you're never going to get ahead of it without spending extra gold and feats to do so!
Moving the CL rules around to suit you does not RAW make. The CL for that belt is given as 8 for all strengths of it, and you do have to satisfy it, you can't just ignore it because you like.
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You are correct on Elixirs. Sigh, it's the 1E guy in me, auto equating all types of potions together...
I will note that Stealth and Energy Resistance can both be put on armor for pure gold, and don't have an enhancement cost limit.
===Aelryinth
...Do fighters really suck?
If so, that's too bad. I like martial classes. I really do.No, no they don't. They are very good at what they do. Sadly what they do can be very limited.
Honestly I feel kind of challenged right now to mess with Eldritch heritage seeing as fighter seems to be a rather good vessel for the feat chain.
We've been seeing a few builds using Eldritch Heritage (Demon) for the massive Str buff, I believe.
Not sure on others. One less thing to have to spend gold on, I guess, although it's quite a few feats for the bonus...
==Aelryinth
...Do fighters really suck?
If so, that's too bad. I like martial classes. I really do.
Come back in about 2016, they should have a consensus for us. :)
Ash, the CL of the Belt is tied to what it is, not the minimum caster level for the spell required to go onto it.
You're wrong. The magic item creation rules specifically say that you can create the item at a lower caster level, but no lower than the minimum level that any requisite spells can be cast. The minimum caster level for the headband of intellect, when you are making it, is 3rd. The default caster level is 8th, but you could also make it higher than 8th at your desire, if you were willing to eat the difference (higher CL items have better saving throws, and are harder to shut down with dispel magic and similar things).
I've quoted this before.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
If you trust the FAQ, or consider it to be infallible (I don't always, but it is useful when it's not directly contradicting the rules or itself), it confirms this as well.
If you want to cite the rules that prove me wrong, go ahead. I've presented the rules that support mine, so it's your turn if you want to keep arguing this.
Here is the criteria I would like to see us comply with for the builds (I don't know how to use the numbered tabs so bear with me):
1) 15 point buy. I prefer the Elite Array as it allows for a more rounded character but that’s my opinion. So long as we have no more than 2 stats with negative modifiers, I think we’re doing alright.
2) All classes and archetypes available from the PRD. This includes the Core Rule Book, Avdanced Player’s Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat.
3) Core only races. Once we start to get into the Bestiaries we open up a can of worms
4) WBL followed, with Item Creation Feats allowing you to go beyond the WBL by 5%/level. So a 3rd level character can exceed the WBL by 15%. This will simulate more downtime between adventures and allow for characters to still comply with the FAQ ruling. Note that the ruling does still recommend that GMs put a recommendation on the WBL increase. I think that this is fair and will allow the excess to grow with the character. Here are those values for simplicity:
a. Level 2: 1,000 increases to 1,100
b. Level 3: 3,000 increases to 3,450
c. Level 4: 6,000 increases to 7,200
d. Level 5: 10,500 increases to 13,125
e. Level 6: 16,000 increases to 20,800
f. Level 7: 23,500 increases to 31,725
g. Level 8: 33,000 increases to 46,200
h. Level 9: 46,000 increases to 66,700
i. Level 10: 62,000 increases to 93,000
j. Level 11: 82,000 increases to 127,100
k. Level 12: 108,000 increases to 172,850
l. Level 13: 140,000 increases to 231,000
m. Level 14: 185,000 increases to 314,500
n. Level 15: 240,000 increases to 420,000
o. Level 16: 315,000 increases to 567,000
p. Level 17: 410,000 increases to 758,500
q. Level 18: 530,000 increases to 1,007,000
r. Level 19: 685,000 increases to 1,335,750
s. Level 20: 880,000 increases to 1,760,000
5) No custom items. You can create whatever items are currently in the books mentioned, but nothing beyond that. The reasons are:
a. No consistent GM ruling for pricing
b. Some items, like the +odd Intelligence boosting items, are wonky and require GM adjudication.
c. Some of us are very good at figuring ways to save money with the tables. Instead of showing off our math skills, we should be showcasing the characters.
6) No having another character cast a spell for you unless you pay the spellcasting services.
7) Builds need to be complete. The more information you can give on what you can accomplish, the better we can all understand. So with Ashiel’s ranger, the explanation of what she could do with her skills is helpful to see at a glance.
Now the only thing we need to agree on is criteria. What should the level appropriate character be able to handle. Sure, we can use the guidelines in the back of the Bestiary for some values. What that doesn’t tell us is what the DCs should be for skills. I’m thinking of something simple from 3.5:
DC Examples:
Very Easy = 0
Easy = 5
Average = 10
Tough = 15
Challenging = 20
Formidable = 25
Heroic = 30
Nearly Impossible = 40
This isn’t perfect but it is what the system was built around so it does give us something to work with.
I do think that some things, like how much a character contributes or how much a drain on resources is harder to pin down. Right now, we should go for functionality and flexibility. I’ll try to see if I can come up with a point system to see which characters can do better. I’m not sure how I’d do that though. Without clear definitions and goals, every character will fail and every character will succeed in these discussions.
Any questions or concerns?
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Bob Loblaw is obviously unfamiliar with the Rule 0 Fallacy: THE RULES AIN'T BORKEN IF THE DM FIX THEM DURRRRRRR.
Best way to fix the fighter: give them more skill points and class skills. Even if the fighter is junk compared to everyone else, just letting him do things outside of the combat encounter is the best way to balance him.
I'm not sure why this was directed at me. I never made any such claim. In fact, I said that the fighter functions as is just fine. I also made a post on what I would like to see as changes, but I didn't think they were necessary.
It's often hard to follow along a thousand post thread and remember who said what. I never claimed Rule 0.
The fighter can absolutely, without question, do things out of combat. If you are going to make a blanket statement, I will be able to disprove it with a simple word: role playing. So long as you can role play, you will have plenty to do out of combat. If you want more, then you need to invest appropriately. Very simple. The class itself lends some flexibility with choices especially if you start to look at archetypes. If you don't know what your character concept is, then you will never be able to build a character of any kind that will be fun and effective in or out of combat.
It is still stupid to argue a fighter cannot make everything with his craft if the ranger cannot make everything with his CWI.
The fighter can enhance the parties armour and shield, plus weapons with another crafting skill while others make the rest.
So the fighter effectively has craft magic arms and armour while the rest of the party makes other stuff they can do better.
Its just like the ranger making wondrous items but relying on the wizard to make him the magic arms and armorur.
No difference here. No disadvantage for the fighter.
And its still ridiculous that we went the way Ashiel wanted and we now define a GOOD CLASS by the ability to craft magic items and the BAD CLASS by having no real ability to craft magic items. That means instantly Fighter, Rogue, Samurai, Monk, Barbarian, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Ninja are all bad classes because they cannot craft magic items. And that claim is a bit far from reality, no?
Like crafting magic items is THAT important. In most campaigns anyone will play (unless he has a 15 minute workday DM (or the really bad Kingmaker AP) which is unbalancing the concept of D&D in itself) you won't have that much time for crafting anyway. And you guys are just crying for enemies to use AMF with all your optimized magic item dependency.
@ Boblaw:
Your Character Wealth concept is really questionable.
According to you with a 50% discount on items I craft and only saving real money from the items I craft out of looted money (which I can sell for 100% obviously) you can have 200% the items of another lvl 20 character and all with the arguments of longer downtimes?
Maybe a flat 20% modifier on the character wealth because the downtimes maybe longer, but also each item at higher levels is more valuable and thus it will take more time.
And since the most pricings on magic items are exponential in their nature (as is the character wealth) your downtime would have to go up exponential by a factor of 3 or 4 instead of 2 for any effect to be had. And do your characters really have like years instead of weeks between encounters just because they are level 15 instead of lvl 5?
While making items for the whole group is only linear in its nature and often if you don't go for the highest items you can easily afford to make it with the +5 DC for faster crafting. And in my experience having two different casters (as you will always have in any real group) with different crafting skills it will easily work out.
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Here is the criteria I would like to see us comply with for the builds (I don't know how to use the numbered tabs so bear with me)
If this is for the AP plan, I would suggest we put WBL to the side and use the treasure from the AP. You can sell items for half or keep items and take less gold (equal to the sale price of the item).
If we go encounter by encounter it should not be hard to keep track of, and we can defer to the judges if there is a dispute as to who gets what.
Purchase of magic items will similarly be based on availability in areas where you are traveling (city wealth level, etc...).
This is how the game was designed to be played, and I think we have drifted from that baseline in the discussions.
I'm open to adjustment on the general premise, but I think this general outline is how most of us experience play...which is how we are trying to adjudicate.
@ Boblaw:
Your Character Wealth concept is really questionable.
According to you with a 50% discount on items I craft and only saving real money from the items I craft out of looted money (which I can sell for 100% obviously) you can have 200% the items of another lvl 20 character and all with the arguments of longer downtimes?
Maybe a flat 20% modifier on the character wealth because the downtimes maybe longer, but also each item at higher levels is more valuable and thus it will take more time.
And since the most pricings on magic items are exponential in their nature (as is the character wealth) your downtime would have to go up exponential by a factor of 3 or 4 instead of 2 for any effect to be had. And do your characters really have like years instead of weeks between encounters just because they are level 15 instead of lvl 5?
I was trying to account for the fact that Paizo says that crafting can allow you to exceed WBL but also says there should be reasonable limits. What I consider reasonable and what Ashiel, or you, or ciretose, or anyone else, is going to vary considerably. That's why I chose an ever increasing value that would allow a character to choose more than one crafting feat and benefit more and more from having multiple feats and plenty of downtime.
If it was my personal game, there would be no exceeding WBL by much and that's something not limited to crafters. It's limited to what I, as GM, feel is appropriate for the character based on circumstances.
Here is the criteria I would like to see us comply with for the builds (I don't know how to use the numbered tabs so bear with me)
If this is for the AP plan, I would suggest we put WBL to the side and use the treasure from the AP. You can sell items for half or keep items and take less gold (equal to the sale price of the item).
If we go encounter by encounter it should not be hard to keep track of, and we can defer to the judges if there is a dispute as to who gets what.
Purchase of magic items will similarly be based on availability in areas where you are traveling (city wealth level, etc...).
This is how the game was designed to be played, and I think we have drifted from that baseline in the discussions.
I'm open to adjustment on the general premise, but I think this general outline is how most of us experience play...which is how we are trying to adjudicate.
How would anyone judge which characters are contributing the most? What is the party composition?
I don't really want to run characters through an AP. I'm already running a full party through an AP for a group that really likes the fighter and the ranger in the party.
...Do fighters really suck?
If so, that's too bad. I like martial classes. I really do.No, no they don't. They are very good at what they do. Sadly what they do can be very limited.
Honestly I feel kind of challenged right now to mess with Eldritch heritage seeing as fighter seems to be a rather good vessel for the feat chain.
We've been seeing a few builds using Eldritch Heritage (Demon) for the massive Str buff, I believe.
Not sure on others. One less thing to have to spend gold on, I guess, although it's quite a few feats for the bonus...
==Aelryinth
I see some promise in other lines as well. Celestial is particularly intriguing. An unarmed fighter using sorcerous strike and touch powers might be useful.
I see some potential here.
It is still stupid to argue a fighter cannot make everything with his craft if the ranger cannot make everything with his CWI.
The fighter can enhance the parties armour and shield, plus weapons with another crafting skill while others make the rest.
So the fighter effectively has craft magic arms and armour while the rest of the party makes other stuff they can do better.Its just like the ranger making wondrous items but relying on the wizard to make him the magic arms and armorur.
No difference here. No disadvantage for the fighter.
And its still ridiculous that we went the way Ashiel wanted and we now define a GOOD CLASS by the ability to craft magic items and the BAD CLASS by having no real ability to craft magic items.
It would be really nice if people listened. It really would. First off, I didn't say a class was automatically bad if they can't craft magic items. It is, however, an advantage classes that can have over that class. There is rarely a single facet that makes a class superior to another, but often many small things.
Also, for a guy who keeps trying to tell me I have the item creation rules wrong (without backing it up I might add), you might want to actually read through them more carefully. One of the biggest reasons I considered a Fighter to be inferior to most other classes in terms of item creation is the fact the fighter will not be making armor plus weapons, he will be making armor OR weapons. You cannot make both with Master Craftsman - ever. Which I've pointed out, repeatedly.
Like crafting magic items is THAT important. In most campaigns anyone will play (unless he has a 15 minute workday DM (or the really bad Kingmaker AP) which is unbalancing the concept of D&D in itself) you won't have that much time for crafting anyway. And you guys are just crying for enemies to use AMF with all your optimized magic item dependency.
I don't see how you are getting this. You are allowed to Craft while traveling (at a slower rate), and I've never seen a campaign that doesn't have some downtime. The 15 minute adventuring day has nothing to do with downtime, since it doesn't actually help Crafting at all. You're just talking nonsense.
Additionally, antimagic field is 90% of the time not a good idea for the caster, because it screws up everyone. Doesn't matter what class you are, having all your junk turn off sucks. AMF is also stuck centered on you. With a small radius. You're just asking to get destroyed by your enemies when you cast this in most situations. "Hey guys, they popped an antimagic field! Get 'em!" is the proper response. At which point you are dismantled by incoming conjuration (creation) spells, arrows, pole arms, or whatever else suits them for tearing you to pieces.
A better argument would have been for dispel magic, or disjunction, both of which are legitimate, yet generally roughly equal in devastation regardless of class. In the former, it is actually beneficial to have multiple magic items, because you have to target a single item to shut it off for a bit, so having spares is a decent idea. This is especially true for magic weapons, as a dispel + shatter combo can cripple a martial's offense if they don't have backup weapons. Incidentally, backup weapons also make it less likely that this will happen to you in the first place, since most casters will be more hesitant to do so if you have the options.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't stop trying to hijack my points and fly to the moon with them, and I'd also appreciate it if you'd get your facts strait before arguing why my points are wrong, and I'd also appreciate it even further if you'd stop making crazy statements about item creation somehow being tied to 15 minute workdays, or suggesting that it's normal for characters to not have downtime. What a marathon run that would have to be.
"Ok guys, we've got a very strict schedule. First we have to deal with these goblins, then head across the valley without actually using up any time, so I've procured some teleportation spells for us despite us being 1st level so we waste no time; we'll make the gold up in our next adventure killing kobolds. From there, we must immediately set to ridding the town of a ghoul that is secretly hiding there in the sewers, so we better tell the GM to hurry up with his plot hooks, because we can't take off more than a few hours between getting healed from the kobold den and going off to hunt for the ghoul. Upon finding the ghoul, we have exactly 15 minutes to decide where our next adventure is going. Time is money, and my daughter needs to go to wizard school in the spring, and I want to bribe the Dean with a +5 Staff of the Magi, so he takes extra good care of her."
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As an example of what I’m thinking, the opening sequence of Rise of the Runelords
Taking the beginner box party.
1. Fighter – Can one hit kill most of the time and unlikely to be hit.
2. Cleric – Healer will be helpful during the pauses, but having Father Zantus means it isn’t mission critical. May be first if not for Father Zantus being present considering healing likely needed over three consecutive conflicts.
3. Rogue- Skills not that useful and will be dependent on fighter for flanking.
4. Wizard- Will likely be great for one of the three encounters, but will likely run out of non-cantrips very quickly and low hit points and ac will leave vulnerable. A sorcerer would be much higher, possibly number one with multiple color sprays or the like. But a 1st level wizard isn't going to have the spells for such a drawn out encounter.
Something short and sweet like that from each judge for each encounter. Over time it will be clear if one person is lagging or not.
Prior to judging each person would say what their character would do to help the party for that specific encounter, and we would total the judges ratings over time with lowest score being the most valuable.
Ashiel, do me a big favor.
The price level of a stat booster is based on the bonus it provides, not the caster level.
So, could you give me the formula for determining the new price of a magic item that has no Caster level/price interplay?
In other words, because you said you could make a stat buffer at CL 3, exactly how are you calculating the price, when caster level does not determine the price?
i.e. your rule above works fine where CL is part and parcel of the price calculation (wands, potions, spell-trigger items).
It doesn't work for stat boosters, +enhancement items and the like, at all.
And I think that's the point that you are failing to see here.
==Aelryinth
As an example of what I’m thinking, the opening sequence of Rise of the Runelords
** spoiler omitted **
Something short and sweet like that from each judge for each encounter. Over time it will be clear if one person is lagging or not.
Prior to judging each person would say what their character would do to help the party for that specific encounter, and we would total the judges ratings over time with lowest score being the most valuable.
That seems fair.
Ashiel, do me a big favor.
The price level of a stat booster is based on the bonus it provides, not the caster level.
Correct.
So, could you give me the formula for determining the new price of a magic item that has no Caster level/price interplay?
What new price? There is no new price. I said it would cost you 18,000 gp to craft it. That's the same cost it would cost you to craft it regardless of caster level. The only difference is that yours only has a +3 bonus to saving throws and a DC 14 to dispel, and the typical one has a +6 bonus on saving throws and DC 19 to dispel.
In other words, because you said you could make a stat buffer at CL 3, exactly how are you calculating the price, when caster level does not determine the price?
The way you normally calculate the price. Bonus squared * 1,000 gp. That would be 36,000 gp for a +6 enhancement to a stat. Halved for creation cost is 18,000 gp. How are you figuring that the price is different?
i.e. your rule above works fine where CL is part and parcel of the price calculation (wands, potions, spell-trigger items).
The rule does not distinguish between magic items. It applies to all of them. It is your prerogative as the creator to set the caster level of the item lower if desired, to the minimum caster level for any required spells (in this case 3rd because it requires a 2nd level spell, but it could be as low as 1st if the magic item only required a 1st level spell).
It doesn't work for stat boosters, +enhancement items and the like, at all. And I think that's the point that you are failing to see here.
By the rules it does. I think that's the point that you are failing to see here. EDIT: Actually, let me rephrase that. It doesn't affect price calculation, but the option to craft the item at a lower caster level does work. Just so we're clear on that.
EDIT: In other words, reducing the caster level of the magic item has no effect on the price for some items. In which case, it is always best to make it at the highest caster level that you can reliably support, because the increased caster level makes the magic item harder to suppress or destroy. The only benefit of having it at a lower caster level is if it would be too difficult otherwise, or if for some reason you want it to have a weaker aura or lower saving throws (a tactic that an evil wizard might use for his minions, in case they decide to betray him).
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As an example of what I’m thinking, the opening sequence of Rise of the Runelords
** spoiler omitted **
Something short and sweet like that from each judge for each encounter. Over time it will be clear if one person is lagging or not.
Prior to judging each person would say what their character would do to help the party for that specific encounter, and we would total the judges ratings over time with lowest score being the most valuable.
That seems fair.
So where should we set up the thread, who are the participants to create builds and who are the judges.
@ Boblaw:
Your Character Wealth concept is really questionable.
According to you with a 50% discount on items I craft and only saving real money from the items I craft out of looted money (which I can sell for 100% obviously) you can have 200% the items of another lvl 20 character and all with the arguments of longer downtimes?
Maybe a flat 20% modifier on the character wealth because the downtimes maybe longer, but also each item at higher levels is more valuable and thus it will take more time.
And since the most pricings on magic items are exponential in their nature (as is the character wealth) your downtime would have to go up exponential by a factor of 3 or 4 instead of 2 for any effect to be had. And do your characters really have like years instead of weeks between encounters just because they are level 15 instead of lvl 5?I was trying to account for the fact that Paizo says that crafting can allow you to exceed WBL but also says there should be reasonable limits. What I consider reasonable and what Ashiel, or you, or ciretose, or anyone else, is going to vary considerably. That's why I chose an ever increasing value that would allow a character to choose more than one crafting feat and benefit more and more from having multiple feats and plenty of downtime.
If it was my personal game, there would be no exceeding WBL by much and that's something not limited to crafters. It's limited to what I, as GM, feel is appropriate for the character based on circumstances.
So with a saving of maximum 50% if you sell all items, find no other loot, and buy other items instead...
How do I get 200% Characterwealth?Even under the most extreme circumstances thinkable we would end up with 150%. The savings will end up somewhere at 20%. Because you always find some items you need and not everything you have is an item that can be crafted out of your crafting feat.
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So where should we set up the thread, who are the participants to create builds and who are the judges.As an example of what I’m thinking, the opening sequence of Rise of the Runelords
** spoiler omitted **
Something short and sweet like that from each judge for each encounter. Over time it will be clear if one person is lagging or not.
Prior to judging each person would say what their character would do to help the party for that specific encounter, and we would total the judges ratings over time with lowest score being the most valuable.
That seems fair.
well, Kotenshi's ready. i see no problem in other people using bestiary races as long as they aren't looking for drow nobles and similar stuff. i figure the only things we are comparing are the fighter and ranger. so an Aasimaar rogue should be fine. (the races package is a ripoff anyway. and it's not very optimal either.)
@ Boblaw:
Your Character Wealth concept is really questionable.
According to you with a 50% discount on items I craft and only saving real money from the items I craft out of looted money (which I can sell for 100% obviously) you can have 200% the items of another lvl 20 character and all with the arguments of longer downtimes?
Maybe a flat 20% modifier on the character wealth because the downtimes maybe longer, but also each item at higher levels is more valuable and thus it will take more time.
And since the most pricings on magic items are exponential in their nature (as is the character wealth) your downtime would have to go up exponential by a factor of 3 or 4 instead of 2 for any effect to be had. And do your characters really have like years instead of weeks between encounters just because they are level 15 instead of lvl 5?I was trying to account for the fact that Paizo says that crafting can allow you to exceed WBL but also says there should be reasonable limits. What I consider reasonable and what Ashiel, or you, or ciretose, or anyone else, is going to vary considerably. That's why I chose an ever increasing value that would allow a character to choose more than one crafting feat and benefit more and more from having multiple feats and plenty of downtime.
If it was my personal game, there would be no exceeding WBL by much and that's something not limited to crafters. It's limited to what I, as GM, feel is appropriate for the character based on circumstances.
So with a saving of maximum 50% if you sell all items, find no other loot, and buy other items instead...
How do I get 200% Characterwealth?
Even under the most extreme circumstances thinkable we would end up with 150%. The savings will end up somewhere at 20%. Because you always find some items you need and not everything you have is an item that can be crafted out of your crafting feat.
It's actually pretty easy once you take into account how much time you spend crafting. Not every adventurer adventures 100% of his or her time. Sometimes they take a lot of time off. It can be done I'm sure. It was hashed out in the thread that led to the FAQ. You can essentially double your wealth since you are crafting at half value.
However, I was just trying to keep the FAQ in mind. Like I said, in my games it would never happen. I don't want to derail this thread any more than it already has. If there are better values to use, then we can use them. SKR said he would limit to +50% WBL. Others said +10%. I don't really care what is decided so long as it is consistent. I don't want to see someone coming in with twice the wealth through back story.
It's actually pretty easy once you take into account...@ Boblaw:
Your Character Wealth concept is really questionable.
According to you with a 50% discount on items I craft and only saving real money from the items I craft out of looted money (which I can sell for 100% obviously) you can have 200% the items of another lvl 20 character and all with the arguments of longer downtimes?
Maybe a flat 20% modifier on the character wealth because the downtimes maybe longer, but also each item at higher levels is more valuable and thus it will take more time.
And since the most pricings on magic items are exponential in their nature (as is the character wealth) your downtime would have to go up exponential by a factor of 3 or 4 instead of 2 for any effect to be had. And do your characters really have like years instead of weeks between encounters just because they are level 15 instead of lvl 5?I was trying to account for the fact that Paizo says that crafting can allow you to exceed WBL but also says there should be reasonable limits. What I consider reasonable and what Ashiel, or you, or ciretose, or anyone else, is going to vary considerably. That's why I chose an ever increasing value that would allow a character to choose more than one crafting feat and benefit more and more from having multiple feats and plenty of downtime.
If it was my personal game, there would be no exceeding WBL by much and that's something not limited to crafters. It's limited to what I, as GM, feel is appropriate for the character based on circumstances.
So with a saving of maximum 50% if you sell all items, find no other loot, and buy other items instead...
How do I get 200% Characterwealth?
Even under the most extreme circumstances thinkable we would end up with 150%. The savings will end up somewhere at 20%. Because you always find some items you need and not everything you have is an item that can be crafted out of your crafting feat.
Well all praise Paizo. They take away the XP cost from crafting items and what do they do to make it actually cost anything?
Nothing. They even make it easier to craft things because you don't have to have the spells anymore, you can make it faster and you can even craft while adventuring. Typical Paizo FUBAR. Change something because you think its good and then forget the whole tail coming after it.Earlier we could have higher WBL if people were willing to fall behind in XP terms so it was all balanced.
Nowadays people like Ashiel run around in the forums and claim that THE FEAT MUST HAVE BENEFITS ZOMG!!!!!! while a single feat is merely equivalent of +1 to hit or +2 to damage. And that is their argument to be able to surpass your WBL by 20+% and say that it "doesn't change much". You can most likely afford a better stat booster or a better enhanced weapon with that 20% which already gives you +1 to hit and +1 to damage (not mentioning the other items you will have) which already puts you far above other feats in terms of power.
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Nowadays people like Ashiel run around in the forums and claim that THE FEAT MUST HAVE BENEFITS ZOMG!!!!!! while a single feat is merely equivalent of +1 to hit or +2 to damage. And that is their argument to be able to surpass your WBL by 20+% and say that it "doesn't change much". You can most likely afford a better stat booster or a better enhanced weapon with that 20% which already gives you +1 to hit and +1 to damage (not mentioning the other items you will have) which already puts you far above other feats in terms of power.
In actual games with GMs who have spines it isn't so much of a problem. If you want to craft that thing you have to do it in the context of building a character from 1st level on, making each item at each level that will be obsolete in a few levels, etc...
It really is only a major problem in the mental masturbation of the forums.
Hopefully they close the loopholes and make the crafting system more clear in Ultimate Magic, but as I said before there are certain people who will always abuse the system searching for loopholes and certain GMs who will let them, and this is why places like PFS can't have crafting rules and such.
Nowadays people like Ashiel run around in the forums and claim that THE FEAT MUST HAVE BENEFITS ZOMG!!!!!! while a single feat is merely equivalent of +1 to hit or +2 to damage. And that is their argument to be able to surpass your WBL by 20+% and say that it "doesn't change much". You can most likely afford a better stat booster or a better enhanced weapon with that 20% which already gives you +1 to hit and +1 to damage (not mentioning the other items you will have) which already puts you far above other feats in terms of power.In actual games with GMs who have spines it isn't so much of a problem. If you want to craft that thing you have to do it in the context of building a character from 1st level on, making each item at each level that will be obsolete in a few levels, etc...
It really is only a major problem in the mental masturbation of the forums.
Hopefully they close the loopholes and make the crafting system more clear in Ultimate Magic, but as I said before there are certain people who will always abuse the system searching for loopholes and certain GMs who will let them, and this is why places like PFS can't have crafting rules and such.
Yes but I blame Paizo on such fails that didn't exist prior to Pathfinder and only came up due to their often badly implemented changes. They changed the right things but didn't fix up what resulted due to the changes as a byproduct.
But I seriously ask myself why they wrote such a thing in the FAQ. It is more at hand to say that WBL is a fixed value. And the advantages of item crafting becomes obvious once you are in a real campaign.
God I wish A Man In Black was around. But apparently he isn't so I guess I just have to quote him (from another thread)
The fighter we have isn't very good at anything but murder, and even then his skillset is pretty limited.
The class is called the fighter. Shouldn't such a class be not only best at fighting/murdering stuff, but be vastly better than any other class in doing that?
The fighter is good until level 5, but from level 6? As soon as he has to move more than 5 ft he is far from fantastic.
At higher levels most - if not all - full BAB classes are more powerful and more versatile.
Every since the APG came out both than ranger and the Barbarian outshines the fighter at fighting. And the paladin always have.
Then we have lack or skills, lack of unique powers, crappy will saves and out of combat his skillset is not only pretty limited, it is almost nonexistent.
Sure he get a lots of feats, but the feats he can pick are far less versatile than the abilities and powers the other full BAB classes get....and they can also pick feats. And he needs all the feat he can get, because the whole class is hit with feat taxes.
Sure there are some fighter only feats, but most of them are there so that he can try to keep up with other full BAB classes, but he actually can't . Ultimate combat could have changed that but didn't?
Ultimate combat:
Fighter feat: 1
Paladin spells: 31
Ranger spells: 32
Wizard/ Sorcerer spells: 97
The barbarian don't get as many feat as the fighter, but the barb has enough feats as it is. They get rage powers that are far more unique, versatile and powerful than any fighter feat. That's why some classes spend feats to gain more class powers. Be it a barbarian taking extra rage power, or an alchemist picking new discoveries, or whatever.
All this said, they fighter is a viable class. He does tons of damage and is one of the most powerful damage dealers in the game. I rather play a fighter than a rogue. Problem is he is boring, not very versatile, has crappy saves and he is not alone in doing tons of damage. The other full BAB classes also does tones of damage and at higher levels they are even better at fighting and 'murder' than the fighter and more versatil in combat and out of combat.
The fighter shouldn't be better than other full BAB classes at fighting. He should be vastly better than the other classes. He isn't.
Have you even read the thread?
1.
Every full attack class has the problem that movement means only 1 attack
2.
Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians don't outshine him in combat. Read the thread or post anything as a proof please. I would be highly interested in the calculations that lead you to the point that any of the above classes is better than the Fighter.
3.
Most full BAB Classes have crappy will saves. Yet he has enough feats to make up for it and get his +4 and probably even a reroll.
He has pretty good unique powers which really shine out of combat.
Full movement in a heavy armour? Gives +to jump checks and lets him keep up with the usual guys on travelling.
Lesser ACP? Gives + to many skills that are most important out of combat. Stealth, Jump, Swim, Acrobatics etc pp.
So what does the Paladin get out of combat that makes him shine? Or the Barbarian?
Can you tell me that?
4.
So you compare the amount of spells to the amount of feats? lol
There always have been and always will be more spells than feats. Period.
5.
The Barbarian has enough feats? So at level 10 you have what? 5 feats?
Even when going two handed weapon (which is the least feat intensive combat style) you will need at least Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved Critical.
So by level ten he has one feat free to buff his other combat abilities like taking Improved Trip or Dodge
6.
Again the same useless claim that others do more damage. He does more damage AND has more AC.
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.
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So some advice for you:
1) Read the Thread
2) Think about it
3) Don't come around with laughable arguments you pulled out of some dark place
4) Add something useful to the thread or stay out
@Alienfreak. Having a bad day? Some advice for you: reread what you wrote and think about it.
@Alienfreak. Having a bad day? Some advice for you: reread what you wrote and think about it.
So what exactly is your criticism?
Mind to point out where I was wrong?
Oh and to point 1:
The problem exists with melee and not with all attacks.
Mounted ranged combatants can use the b0rked mounted archery rules. But the fighter is the best archer in the system anyway (because it is so feat intensive).
And take Eldritch Heritage (sylvan) plus Boon Companion and at level 7 you will be either sitting on a Roc raining down doom and despair from above or on your pouncing grabby grab Tiger.
The class is called the fighter. Shouldn't such a class be not only best at fighting/murdering stuff, but be vastly better than any other class in doing that?
Why should they be vastly better? What does vastly better mean? Is having only abilities that can't be stopped with dispel magic better (all fighter abilities are extraordinary)? Is having multiple ways to build effective characters for both melee and range better (the fighter has enough feats to do this)? Is having enough feats to have multiple useful combat maneuvers better (no class other than the monk can specialize in as many and no class can be as good)?
The fighter is good until level 5, but from level 6? As soon as he has to move more than 5 ft he is far from fantastic.
This is why some people shouldn't play fighters. Maybe you should open with a ranged attack and get the enemy moving to you. Maybe you should consider quaffing a potion of enlarge and using a reach weapon? Maybe you should take an archetype that allows you to move an attack. Maybe you should take feats that allow you to get in there and then keep your opponent focused on you (you do have enough hit points to last a round or two).
At higher levels most - if not all - full BAB classes are more powerful and more versatile.
Every since the APG came out both than ranger and the Barbarian outshines the fighter at fighting. And the paladin always have.
So you've completely discounted all the archetypes and feat options? That's one way to be right: ignore the data.
Then we have lack or skills, lack of unique powers, crappy will saves and out of combat his skillset is not only pretty limited, it is almost nonexistent.
I have proven this wrong already much earlier in the thread. With the number of options available for a fighter, this is easily disproved. And honestly, if you can't figure out what to do out of combat then maybe role playing games are not for you. Unique powers don't make a class great in the slightest. In fact, many of the awesome powers people tout are actually not unique at all. Most of them are shared by at least one other class. Will saves are meant to be a weakness but it is easily overcome. Just like a wizard's weakness is lack of hit points, he overcomes it by doing what he can to not be hit, the fighter has his ways of dealing with poor Will saves.
Sure he get a lots of feats, but the feats he can pick are far less versatile than the abilities and powers the other full BAB classes get....and they can also pick feats. And he needs all the feat he can get, because the whole class is hit with feat taxes.
Perhaps you need to learn how to build a fighter then. The fighter isn't hit with a feat tax any more than a wizard is hit with a spell tax or a barbarian is hit with a rage tax.
Sure there are some fighter only feats, but most of them are there so that he can try to keep up with other full BAB classes, but he actually can't . Ultimate combat could have changed that but didn't?
Ultimate combat:
Fighter feat: 1
Paladin spells: 31
Ranger spells: 32
Wizard/ Sorcerer spells: 97
I noticed that you completely ignored the archetypes and the 182 Combat feats they added. Some of which are much better suited for the fighter (Impaling Critical requires Weapon Specialization). Sure the fighter can't use all those feats but that certainly opens up customization far more than the other melee classes.
The barbarian don't get as many feat as the fighter, but the barb has enough feats as it is. They get rage powers that are far more unique, versatile and powerful than any fighter feat. That's why some classes spend feats to gain more class powers. Be it a barbarian taking extra rage power, or an alchemist picking new discoveries, or whatever.
Rage powers are binary and often limited in use. Fighter feats are not.
All this said, they fighter is a viable class. He does tons of damage
and is one of the most powerful damage dealers in the game. I rather play a fighter than a rogue. Problem is he is boring, not very versatile, has crappy saves and he is not alone in doing tons of damage. The other full BAB classes also does tones of damage and at higher levels they are even better at fighting and 'murder' than the fighter and more versatil in combat and out of combat.
I love how you say he has a crappy Will save but then go on to lump all his saves into one statement. As for damage, no other class can consistently out-damage the fighter. The paladin can against a specifically aligned enemy. The barbarian can when he's raging and has taken the right rage powers. I don't think the ranger can, but he might be able to come close with archery. However, for the ranger to pull it off (with any style), he needs to use his limited selection of spells. Again, out of combat is easily dealt with. I know that I can build a fighter that is versatile in and out of combat. I also know that no matter what I choose to be good out of combat, you will do as everyone else and say that he can't do something else. So if I make him a master of diplomacy and knowledge, you will claim that he didn't have enough points for linguistics. If I overcome that, you will claim that he can't make a living off of bar tending because he didn't have enough skill points for that. I've been down this road often enough to know what's going to happen.
The fighter shouldn't be better than other full BAB classes at fighting. He should be vastly better than the other classes. He isn't.
This is probably why you don't like the fighter. You want what it was never meant to be and should never be. There are classes that do what you want. The fighter is for the player that doesn't want a preset selection of abilities with minor customization. The fighter is for the player that wants to play his own style of combatant.
My 2 cents: pathfinder's fighter is by far the best fighter ever (at least until 4 edition who gave him the real balance with other classe). BUT I think he suffers because of his need of specialization, which causes many feat taxes and transmute him into a oneortwo-trick pony.
My suggestion: At first level add to every fighter this power (in my campaigns I succesfully do it):
Intensive training (str): every fighter needs to train everyday of its life to truly master its weapon skills. Its dedication gives him the advantage where combat's result relies on technique instead of brute force. At every fighter level when he "unlocks" the level requisite for the improved/greater/superior version of a feat he has, he can pay 1 skill point or 2 hit points. If he does so, he gets that feat.
Well all praise Paizo. They take away the XP cost from crafting items and what do they do to make it actually cost anything?
Nothing. They even make it easier to craft things because you don't have to have the spells anymore, you can make it faster and you can even craft while adventuring. Typical Paizo FUBAR. Change something because you think its good and then forget the whole tail coming after it.Earlier we could have higher WBL if people were willing to fall behind in XP terms so it was all balanced.
Nowadays people like Ashiel run around in the forums and claim that THE FEAT MUST HAVE BENEFITS ZOMG!!!!!! while a single feat is merely equivalent of +1 to hit or +2 to damage. And that is their argument to be able to surpass your WBL by 20+% and say that it "doesn't change much". You can most likely afford a better stat booster or a better enhanced weapon with that 20% which already gives you +1 to hit and +1 to damage (not mentioning the other items you will have) which already puts you far above other feats in terms of power.
Hahahaha. Oh my god this cracks me up every time I hear it. Why does anyone still think this when it has been considered universally so wrong for literally years now? They proved that Item Creation was optimal back on the WotC boards, and still on Giant in the Playground you can find people who primarily play 3.x, full of people who know the system in and out, and they will still tell you that the XP costs for item creation are basically pointless.
Why were they pointless? Because of the way you earned experience in 3.5. If you actually ended up a lower level than your allies, then you would start getting huge amounts of bonus XP points, which would either A) catch you right back up quick, fast, and in a hurry, or B) pile on tons of bonus XP for you to progress steadily while producing more and more magic items with your river of ever flowing XP.
CO is about exerting any numerical advantage possible. Often this is expressed by selection of classes, races, feats, skills and weapons among other things. How to maximize PA damage and take more attacks or actions per round. I see plenty of threads that deal with exploits of these mechanics, however I have yet to see one about exploiting raw experience one of the most fundamental and important mechanics of the game, and by the way a set of rules that is easily exploited.
Experience Rules DMG 37
Experience Table DMG 38All other things being equal a character of lower level gains more experience than a higher level character for any given encounter. The assumtion is that the lower level character is weaker and needs more experience - the encounter was harder for him and he expended a greater number of resources. This lower level character's level will be adjusted over time to help him catch up to the higher level character. I call this Free Experience or the Experience River. Both characters were subjected to the same encounter but the lower level character got extra experience, Free Experience.
Suppose we can craft a character that although lower level is numerically superiour? Then the lower level character really is getting free experience, and the CO Gods smile upon us.AH - a clear numerical advantage! How do we exploit it?
(NOTE the Experience River is dependent on your DM giving experience based on your actual level, not fixed experience or average party level (as mine does))But Wait you have to be lower level to get that experience! That can't be worth it! (This is the CO boards... anything is possible. We shall at least consider the idea.) Fear not gentle reader! Read on.
Let us consider a Pc, Mildred the unfortunate, who through her adventuring career (levels 1-19) stays one level behind her companions
(1-20) and collects extra experience. How much extra does she gain over the party average?For simplicity sake we are going to make the following assumption: all encounters are at the normal party level.
well here is my handy spread sheet
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P level P_Exp 1 Factor M_Exp Free_Exp Tot_Exp Running_Exp
1 1000 1 1000 0 1000 1000
2 2000 1 2000 0 1000 2000
3 3000 1 3000 0 1000 3000
4 4000 1.13 4500 500 1500 4500
5 5000 1.07 5333.33 333.33 1333.33 5833.33
6 6000 1.25 7500 1500 2500 8333.33
7 7000 1.29 9000 2000 3000 11333.33
8 8000 1.31 10500 2500 3500 14833.33
9 9000 1.33 12000 3000 4000 18833.33
10 10000 1.35 13500 3500 4500 23333.33
11 11000 1.36 15000 4000 5000 28333.33
12 12000 1.38 16500 4500 5500 33833.33
13 13000 1.38 18000 5000 6000 39833.33
14 14000 1.39 19500 5500 6500 46333.33
15 15000 1.4 21000 6000 7000 53333.33
16 16000 1.41 22500 6500 7500 60833.33
17 17000 1.41 24000 7000 8000 68833.33
18 18000 1.42 25500 7500 8500 77333.33
19 19000 1.42 27000 8000 9000 86333.33
20 20000 1.43 28500 8500 9500 95833.33
Totals 210000 285833.33 75833.33 95833.33
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Exp_Factor is how much more experience mildred earns on the experience gained. The extra experience a character earns for a Cr +1 encounter when her level is one lower than the party average.
M_Exp = P_Exp * Factor
Free_Exp = M_Exp - P_Exp (how much more exp you get than the party)
Tot_Exp = Free_Exp + 1000 (how much you have to spend to stay a whole level behind, note this is useless for levels 1-3 as there is no experience gain, might as well spend 4.5 exp at level 3 to stay there until the party advances to level 5 and you to level 4)
Running Exp = accumulation of Tot_Exp up to this level (like char wealth by level as opposed to expected wealth gain DMG 135 vs. DMG 54)so by staying behind 1 level Mildred will earn ~ 75 k more experience than her companions. (she also needs to spend 20k to prevent premature leveling)
The Question then becomes: Is spending ~ 95k experience worth a level?
Or: Does spending the free Exp at any level justify the loss of the level?Well it depends, on what you spend it on!!
Can you make up a caster level, HP, BAB, Saves, Class abilites, For one level with the given exp??
Well, gentle reader I beleive that you can.As of now i see 2 ways to exploit the experience river - though CO regulars will no doubt find more.
1 Item Creation
2 Pcs with LAI - Item Creation
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P free gp Tot gp Running gp Char Wealth by level
1 0 12500 12500 0
2 0 12500 25000 900
3 0 12500 37500 2700
4 6250 18750 56250 5400
5 4166.67 16666.67 72916.67 9000
6 18750 31250 104166.67 13000
7 25000 37500 141666.67 19000
8 31250 43750 185416.67 27000
9 37500 50000 235416.67 36000
10 43750 56250 291666.67 49000
11 50000 62500 354166.67 66000
12 56250 68750 422916.67 88000
13 62500 75000 497916.67 110000
14 68750 81250 579166.67 150000
15 75000 87500 666666.67 200000
16 81250 93750 760416.67 260000
17 87500 100000 860416.67 340000
18 93750 106250 966666.67 440000
19 100000 112500 1079166.67 580000
20 106250 118750 1197916.67 760000
947916.67 1197916.67
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Basically we are multiplying the table above by 12.5 to find out what the exp is worth
free gp = 12.5 * free
tot gp = 12.5 * tpt
Running gp = 12.5 * runexp is worth 12.5 gp because you have to pay for materials, except for maybe the last time when you no longer need to seed the pot... but my mind is foggy if you figgure out what i mean and have a way of clearly saying it please feel free. oh, figgured it out basically char wealth by level is worth twice as much because you turn it into magic items, but any extra exp can be sold at 12.5 gp ...
So divide char wealth by level by 12.5 canabalize that much exp to make 2x char wealth by level stuff. then multiply the remaining gp by 12.5 for what you can create(unless you have an alternate $ source)By level 19 you can gain 95k extra exp to spend. In order to burn all of this exp you can spend up to 2.4M gp and get 4.8 M gp worth of eq!
Of course you won't have 2.4 M to spend, but you can double your character wealth at any level by making magic items. I'll leave it to others to figgure out how far behind you would be if you only double your character wealth.You can spend experience to make money as follows(depending on supply and demand):
let's say you have 1,200 exp to spend but only 10k gp. in order to spend the whole 1.2k exp you would need 30k gp and would get 60k gp worth of eq.
Turn your exp into cash:
take orders
spend 10k gp and 400 exp to make products
sell for 20000 gp
use 800 exp and 20k gp to make 40k worth of eq!
Perhaphs someone can recomend a money making thread or find a way to exploit hireling/henchmen/followers/nanobots so you don't have to expend exp, though you could do this with a simple craft feat and time(or a shop and employees).mildred level 19 with 95k exp and 760k gp to spend goes to work and spends 760k on items for sale on the market. she spends 30.4k exp but gets 1.52 M to spend and still has 59.6 k exp to burn. spending the exp and money gets her ~ 1.49 M worth of eq and she has 30k yet to spend roughtly doubling her 20th level Char wealth. if however you can get 2.4M gp that's 4.8 M eq.
Now what about time frame? spending 96k exp at 40/day? 2396 days or 6.56 years of solid work. (great, a little bit closer to venerable!!)Given: There is a bottle somewhere that stores EXP, so if you die after you are brough back to the same exp total(i think that's how it works)
Question: how many times to you have to kill yourself before you have enough $?
Now that you have unlimited wealth ...II - Pcs with LA (or catching up)
UA has options to do a level buy out, trade out LA for EXP. Basically you are paying experience for even more free experience and taking some handy bonuses to boot.
Also you may want to catch up on experience and are wondering how long it will take.
The left column is the level at which you start catching up
The top row is over how many levels you catch up.
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P 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1 1 1 1 0.89 0.83 0.63 0.36 0.16 0.05 0.01
2 1 1 0.89 0.83 0.67 0.41 0.20 0.07 0.02 0
3 1 0.89 0.83 0.67 0.52 0.31 0.14 0.04 0.01 0
4 0.89 0.83 0.67 0.52 0.40 0.23 0.10 0.03 0.01 0
5 0.94 0.75 0.58 0.44 0.33 0.19 0.08 0.02 0 0
6 0.80 0.62 0.47 0.36 0.26 0.14 0.06 0.02 0 0
7 0.78 0.59 0.44 0.33 0.24 0.13 0.05 0.01 0 0
8 0.76 0.57 0.42 0.31 0.23 0.12 0.04 0.01 0 0
9 0.75 0.56 0.41 0.30 0.21 0.11 0.04 0.01 0 0
10 0.74 0.54 0.40 0.29 0.20 0.11 0.04 0.01 0 0
11 0.73 0.53 0.39 0.28 0.20 0.10 0.04 0.01 0 0
12 0.73 0.53 0.38 0.27 0.19 0.10 0.03 0.01 0
13 0.72 0.52 0.37 0.26 0.19 0.09 0.03 0.01
14 0.72 0.51 0.36 0.26 0.18 0.09 0.03
15 0.71 0.51 0.36 0.25 0.18 0.09
16 0.71 0.50 0.36 0.25 0.18
17 0.71 0.50 0.35 0.25
18 0.71 0.50 0.35
19 0.70 0.49
20 0.70
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Say you are 3000 exp behind at level 4, how far behind will you be in 3 levels?
Go down to row 4 (4th level) intersect it with column 3 = .67
3000 * .67 ~ 2000 -- you'll be 2000 exp behind.
What about in 7 levels?
row 4, column 7 = .10 -- 3000 * .1 = about 300 exp behind at 10th level.how about 3000 exp at level 3 and 6000 exp at level 6 what will things look like at level 10?
(3,7) .14*3000 = 420
(6,4) .36*6000 = 2160
= 2580
as above but level 12?
30 + 840 = 870Observations on LA:
The more levels you take the closer you get to the party average.
The higher your level the faster you catch up.(which is interesting i think you need it more at lower levels)CONCLUSION
Experience is a river. Now you have a paddle. Use it wisely! I believe that craft wonderous item is the best feat ever!
Know how long a LA will take you to pay off (great way to get free racial bonuses).Tell your DM that instead of leveling to level 20 you want to have level to 19 and have infinite wealth. Except you can have infinte wealth before that and catch up to level 20, not that it will matter.
SO .. what can you do with double character wealth? How far behind does it really put you?
How many levels untill you get the +2 LA template for free?ALSO
Experience MAY NOT BE a river in your campaign(if every one gets the same exp or it's not based on char level)
Showing this to your DM probably won't help. :P
You can sell your exp at market value for 12.5 gp/exp point with item creation feats, max 40 exp/day.
You can make 500 gp a day by spending 500 gp and 40 exp to make 1000 gp item taking out material costs leaves you with 500 gp.
You can by someone else's exp at 25 gp/exp on item creation (12.5 for their raw materials and 12.5 for experience)Some may consider being more than 1 level behind, i am not going to address that, you have the tools to figgure it out.
If you know how to format tables easily let me know, that's a pain.
If my math is off(it may be in the gp tables or hard to read), but the concept is sound, that's fine with me.
If someone who is a better caretacker of a thread than i want's to take over that's fine with me.Snow, I am taken so don't even ask. If there are any other brilliant women out there, same goes to you too. lol.
APPOLOGIES
My gramar, punctuation, spelling and even my math may be off.
Let me know and I will fix it at some point.
I may be breaking board rules by being too explicit with my numbers - i'll fix that immediately.
I am tired hope most of this makes sense.
It's my first post to the CO boards, please be gentle.
Paizo did a pretty good thing. They made all XP gains static, and they made it so you never lose XP points you have gained, even from resurrecting, crafting, etc. There wasn't a real good in character reason for losing XP when Crafting, because XP was intangible, and in previous editions you'd actually gain XP from item creation.
But seriously, you could milk item creation in 3.x too, and be none the worse for it. This was doubly so if your group allowed item familiars, samurai, or any option that allowed you to burn XP for goodies.
Oh and to point 1:
The problem exists with melee and not with all attacks.
Mounted ranged combatants can use the b0rked mounted archery rules. But the fighter is the best archer in the system anyway (because it is so feat intensive).
And take Eldritch Heritage (sylvan) plus Boon Companion and at level 7 you will be either sitting on a Roc raining down doom and despair from above or on your pouncing grabby grab Tiger.
The trouble of course with that is its the Wildblooded archetype. Thus it doesn't work with eldritch heritage sadly.
This is horribly formated.
But lets take it this way:
Party lvl 10 you still lvl 9.
Now an average encounter maybe one CR11 and three CR8 (one main mob with 3 lower level supporters to keep the fight flowing).
So you get 2700xp for the encounter while the rest of the party gains 2250. Means 450 more. If you now crafted all the 9000 xp you had into items it will take you four of such encounters to catch up with the party's level. They now have 9000xp, which means they are 9/10 into level level 11.
After one more encounter you are 4500 into level 11 while they are 1250 into level 12.
.
.
.
So where is the real advantage here?
You will be one level behind your party but have crafted magic items. That means against another character you are behind in HD, HPs, BAB, Ability Ups, Feats from levels, Class Specials and one Feat (your crafting feat).
Maybe you can offset these advantages with the bonuses you get from the magic items. A rule of thumb would be you would have 20-25% more WBL as your party for being one level and one feat behind.
I fail to see the huge advantage here. You can either be one level higher and one more feat or have more WBL.
.
.
.
Now lets look at Pathfinder:
20-25% more WBL
Same level
one lesfeat
Compared to:
20-25% more WBL
one less level
one less feat
I mean... what could Paizo probably broken? I can't see anything. Under 3.5 it was balanced because you could fall a level behind in power in order to have your perfect items and now you are just plain better.
The trouble of course with that is its the Wildblooded archetype. Thus it doesn't work with eldritch heritage sadly.Oh and to point 1:
The problem exists with melee and not with all attacks.
Mounted ranged combatants can use the b0rked mounted archery rules. But the fighter is the best archer in the system anyway (because it is so feat intensive).
And take Eldritch Heritage (sylvan) plus Boon Companion and at level 7 you will be either sitting on a Roc raining down doom and despair from above or on your pouncing grabby grab Tiger.
Hmmm... you get a bloodline and basically the wildblooded is a bloodline, too. Its the Sylvan bloodline...
I haven't seen anything that speaks against taking such a bloodline...
Damn edit function is working today so:
EDIT:
Also note that everyone who can take a domain can also take subdomains. Not only the cleric.
So why should it be different with subbloodlines?
Damn edit function is working today so:
EDIT:
Also note that everyone who can take a domain can also take subdomains. Not only the cleric.So why should it be different with subbloodlines?
Primarily wording. Sure there are plenty of GM's who wouldn't mind it but there are plenty of others who would say no.
Wildblooded is an archetype that alters a bloodline.
Subdomains are simply alternate versions of domains.
Eldritch heritage gives you access to a bloodline but not an archetype.
Damn edit function is working today so:
EDIT:
Also note that everyone who can take a domain can also take subdomains. Not only the cleric.So why should it be different with subbloodlines?
Primarily wording. Sure there are plenty of GM's who wouldn't mind it but there are plenty of others who would say no.
Wildblooded is an archetype that alters a bloodline.
Subdomains are simply alternate versions of domains.
Eldritch heritage gives you access to a bloodline but not an archetype.
Huh?
Read the entry of a subdomain and then one of a wildblooded bloodline.
Both are exactly the same. Both are archetypes that change certain parts of a domain. And everyone who gets this can apply the archetype.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains /animal-domain/feather
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---so rcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sylvan
I disagree with tarkXT, wildblooded seems to be just a normal bloodline.
unfortunately,I also believe that you can not take the sylvan bloodline with eldrith heritage. Th Sylvan bloodline also replace the fey bloodline arcana.
Sylvan
Your ties to nature have more to do with creatures than with capriciousness.Associated Bloodline: Fey.
Bloodline Arcana
See bloodline powers.
Huh?
All it does is changing the bloodline powers...
Huh?
All it does is changing the bloodline powers...
Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.
That is why the arcana section says "See Bloodline powers."
Additionally, subdomains and the wildblooded archetype are not comparable. The subdomains section in APG never mentions archetypes. UM, on the other hand, has a number of new bloodlines followed by a section explicitly marked "Wildblooded (Archetype)."
So, there are two very good reasons to not allow Eldritch Heritage for the Sylvan bloodline. Personally, I see it like trying to switch out an Urban Ranger's "Trapfinding" for something from a Rogue archetype, but either reason is good enough to disallow it.
Huh?
All it does is changing the bloodline powers...
Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.That is why the arcana section says "See Bloodline powers."
Additionally, subdomains and the wildblooded archetype are not comparable. The subdomains section in APG never mentions archetypes. UM, on the other hand, has a number of new bloodlines followed by a section explicitly marked "Wildblooded (Archetype)."
So, there are two very good reasons to not allow Eldritch Heritage for the Sylvan bloodline. Personally, I see it like trying to switch out an Urban Ranger's "Trapfinding" for something from a Rogue archetype, but either reason is good enough to disallow it.
The Archetype is applied to the bloodline which has an arcana so you can apply the archetype.
And then its listed under the bloodline powers and you get these...
I was under the impression that it would change its own prerequirements somehow and as such your skill focus wouldn't apply.
It is odd... but well... what about Eldritch Heritage is not odd?
Oracles casting Sorcerer spells... etc. pp.
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Just for fun i made some changes to the tower shield fighters of shallowsoul. Betters saves, much better touch Ac, better damage, sadly less skills.
10th level Human Fighter (Tower shield specialist)
Str:22
Dex:16
Con:15
Int:10
Wis:14
Cha:7
HP: 10d10 + 30
AC: 35 (10+11 Armor, +7 Shield, + 2 Shield Focus & Greater Shield Focus, +3 Dex, +1 Dodge +1 deflection)
Touch Ac 24(10 +9 shield +3 dex + 1 doge + 1 deflection)Spd: 40 ft
Fort: +11
Ref: +9 (+12 against burst effect and spells)
Will: +9Feats: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization(Scimitar), Dodge, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Iron Will, power attack, Furious focus, lighting reflex, toughness, critical focus.
Fighter Abilities: Bonus Feats, Tower Shield Training, Tower Shield Specialist, Burst Barrier.
Perception: (10 + 2) = +12
Climb: (5+ 6 + 3) = +14
Survival: (5+ 3 + 2) = +10
Swim: (10+6+3)=19Attack: +2 Scimitar: +19/+11 1d6+16... 15-20 x2 (power attack + furious focus)
Gear: +3 Full Plate, +3 darkwood Tower Shield, +2 adamantine Scimitar, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Boots of Striding and Springing, cloak of resitance +2, ring of pretection +1.
I looked at the tower shield specialist but you give up on weapon training which could hurt you later.
This is horribly formated.
But lets take it this way:
Party lvl 10 you still lvl 9.
Now an average encounter maybe one CR11 and three CR8 (one main mob with 3 lower level supporters to keep the fight flowing).
So you get 2700xp for the encounter while the rest of the party gains 2250. Means 450 more. If you now crafted all the 9000 xp you had into items it will take you four of such encounters to catch up with the party's level. They now have 9000xp, which means they are 9/10 into level level 11.
After one more encounter you are 4500 into level 11 while they are 1250 into level 12..
So where is the real advantage here?
You will be one level behind your party but have crafted magic items. That means against another character you are behind in HD, HPs, BAB, Ability Ups, Feats from levels, Class Specials and one Feat (your crafting feat).
Maybe you can offset these advantages with the bonuses you get from the magic items. A rule of thumb would be you would have 20-25% more WBL as your party for being one level and one feat behind.I fail to see the huge advantage here. You can either be one level higher and one more feat or have more WBL.
Now lets look at Pathfinder:
20-25% more WBL
Same level
one lesfeatCompared to:
20-25% more WBL
one less level
one less featI mean... what could Paizo probably broken? I can't see anything. Under 3.5 it was balanced because you could fall a level behind in power in order to have your perfect items and now you are just plain better.
In 3.5, let's say you craft something, and you're 8th and the rest of the party is 9th.
You have an encounter, and defeat a CR 12.
(I'm pulling numbers out of the air). All the 9th level characters earn 2000 xp.
The 8th level character, because he is lower level, would earn 2500 xp. Maybe 3000 xp. Because the rules are designed to get everybody back close to the same level.
Congrats, the 1000xp you blew on crafting you just got back 'for free'. It is TOTALLY possible in 3.5 to stay a level behind the rest of the party, craft away, and actually earn MORE xp then they do. Which means your level behind is merely a case of being balanced with half-price gear.
Artificers with the right feats could really, really abuse this system.
Using XP for crafting only works if you keep track of the 'true' xp total, and don't give bonuses. So, for instance, the 8th level mage who has given up 2500 xp crafting is still treated as 9th level for ALL purposes. No free xp, etc. His extra gear replaces the class level he is behind.
===Aelryinth
That theorycrafting is always nice.
3 ECL 9 and 1 ECL 8 against 1 CR12.
ECL 9 gets 2025
ECL 8 gets 2400
So the only way you can make XP out of it is by being REALLY CLOSE to level 9 but not at level 9 because you cannot drain your XP that far that you lose a level.
Now uunder the unrealistic happening that you manage that you are x (1-374) below level 9 and your party members are less than 375-x above level 9 then yes, you can make xp out of. Now lets look at the uber rare happening that you are 1 point below level 9 and your other party is exactly level 9. Then you just made 374 XP.
And even under the really really rare circumstances that you can time that this well you are still facing a CR12 encounter and are lvl 8.
Assume you are a Wizard and encounter an [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/angel-monadic-deva"]Monadic Deva
Now because of your "pro tactic" of being one level behind you just happen to not have the 5th level of spells. Means no Dismissal, no Teleport to flee, no Hold Monster, no Magic Jar, no Waves of Fatigue etc.
Hanging one level behind sounds really cool on the paper, but actually playing it is another pair of shoes. And don't forget that you also lack one feat your party members have. And Feats were more valuable in 3.5.
So if you really win that fight and really manage to be in the cookie zone of your hanging behind then you earned your handful of XP which you now have more than your party.