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Why all the Fighter hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Which is why i suggested PFS rules everyone knows whats legal and just pick a level and use its WBL (since crafting will be out as it PFS rules everything falls more to the build.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Is it just me or is this thread getting more and more a farce?

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

It's all downhill after people refused to quit the topic following my "Uh oh" post on page 1.

*puffs smoke*


What about talking seriously. As I said in another tread GM should control magic item crafting. With core rules we can have casters with broken spell DC and item that grants +20 on all saving throws. This seems more like hack and slash infernal mode, not RPG. So stop talking about builds and magic items and let's talk about the fighter class.

I think that fighters don't need improvement in combat situations, with just one exception.
Saving throws are too low. This problem there's also for rogue (even worst), knight, etc. A fortitude or will ST failed can end the game in one round. At higher levels at least a caster can use some spells to avoid danger, but a non caster can't (and magic items can't be the only solution, it's only gear and there could be a low magic campaign).
Building a fighter just for "power" as some builds seen before you can just add a level of inquisitor (spellbreaker archetype, spellkiller inquisition) and this helps a lot a class like fighter (rogue still have problems).
Is this the way I like to run my games? With players forced to think strange builds and desperate for magic gear? No.
So I wondered how to fix that. At first i thinked to change the improved version of iron will & co, adding another +2 on ST, but this could work if you got 2 feats to use.
I don't have an answer yet. Maybe rougue should add a +1 bonus on mind affecting spells and poison every 4 levels or something, but I'm still reasoning on it.

For the non combat situations I'm sure of that: no more 2 skill points classes. Fighter, wizard, cleric, paladin, etc should have 4 skills / level. Considered this, GM shoul watch over skill point expense. This is not a "more power" house rules, but a way to give more options or roleplay.

Andoran

A Fort save is more likely to be SoD than a will save, so this is a shared vulnerability for any class that doesn't have good saves.

I would argue a fighter is better off than other low will save classes since they have the extra feats that can be used to increase will save, and these saves are always active, not just circumstantially.

As to two skill points a level, I disagree. It is a limiting factor of the class. Not every build should be able to do everything well. That challenge is the game.


Fort save:
Good base
Good Ability bonus

Ref save:
Bad Base
Medium Ability bonus
Most Ref Saves are for HP damage and he has a lot so its not too bad

Will save:
Bad Base
Bad Ability Bonus
Has enough feats to get Iron Will


What I say is that the 2 skill point concept is wrong. It's not balance, just roleplay limitation. With 2 more point you don't do "everything", just a little more thing.

Speaking about ST, they'r too low in general. As a GM I have the problem to don't kill my players. Fighters, rangers and rogue are character that don't have a class ability that boos low ST (barbs and knight got one at least).
What if for a 7th level party i put a 9th level wizard enemy? Some elusive spells, like greater invisibility, then he cast. Assume he got int 22 (not so high with normal rules). The DC is 21 for baneful polymorph or feeblemind (or charm monster). At 7th level a warrior with 18 con and wis (wow, super) got +9 fortitude bonus and +6 will. He need a roll of 12 to pass vs baneful polymorph and 15 for a will save.
Now, there are a lot of way to improve ST, and a lot of debuff to lower it. A party can be created considering this, but often this don't function if party is surprised. This is the game, and it's ok, but the real problem is that if I put one player out of combat what could he do? Watch his friends play? Now I have not changed the ST rules, but I erased spells that can end a fight in one round (expecially at 9th char level).
Consider that NPC have to "survive" just one encounter, character have to survive for many. One spell (or poison, or critical hit) today, one tomorrow, the chance to die becomes almost a certainty. Character could die if players don't play properly, but it's not possible to give sure death with an ambush.


Core Rulebook
Entangle (reflex partial); spike growth (reflex partial); spike stone (reflex partial); sunbeam (reflex partial or reflex negates); reverse gravity (see text; reflex); whirlwind (reflex partial); grease (reflex partial); web (reflex negates); sepia snake sigil (reflex negates); resilient sphere (reflex negates); forcecage (reflex negates); telekinetic sphere (reflex negates);

CR 1 pit trap (reflex negates); CR 2 spiked pit trap (reflex negates); CR 3 camouflaged pit trap (reflex negates); CR 8 Camouflaged Spiked Pit Trap; CR 12 Poisoned Pit Trap.

Advanced Player's Guide
create pit (reflex negates); aqueous orb (reflex negates); shifting sand (reflex negates); spiked pit (reflex negates); acid pit (reflex negates); hungry pit (reflex negates); vortex (reflex negates); fire of entanglement (reflex partial);

... *yawns* Good morning everyone.


So you are arguing that all classes with a poor reflex save are weak?


Caedwyr wrote:
So you are arguing that all classes with a poor reflex save are weak?

Nah. Alienfreak said "Most Ref Saves are for HP damage and he has a lot so its not too bad", and I was noting that there was a lot of nasty things that can occur when you fail a Reflex save, including completely removing you from combat (as is the case with pits, spheres, etc), which can effectively make them save or die effects.

Pit traps are pretty notorious for this actually. Especially if you end up in an Indiana Jones style situation, where there's a pit trap full of something nasty, like a swarm, or an ooze monster.

EDIT: But I must admit, this thread is beginning to make me feel like people aren't willing to accept the bad things that happen (or can happen) to adventurers as part of the normal game. Heck, people are arguing that we shouldn't even base this comparison on the rules for the normal game, and instead swap to discussing Pathfinder society, which is just a big load of house rules that aren't the same as Pathfinder. I mean, you have to download a separate rulebook for it.

I noted before, and I'll note it again, I like Fighters, but they need certain things to be viable unless the GM is coddling the players and not actually playing NPCs to their potential, or using their NPCs as a team, or being devious with their traps, and so forth. Heck, people started crying when Rangers crafted rules-legal items by the rules, using the rules, the core rules, that are in the core rulebook, that are noted as the rules, and not separate from the rules, nor noted as not being rules, and are quite clearly the rules; apparently just because they don't want them to be the rules.

I couldn't imagine a Fighter lasting very long in a game where the GM actually bothers to use the toolkit that we have available, with such angst against letting martials have nice things. Nice things that are in the rules. Nice things that are legal. Nice things so they don't get 1-shot or crowd controlled out of every other fight.

Ironically, it's the Fighter fans who are saying Fighters can't have nice things, while seeming to think that 1d8+11 and gimping their potential AC is somehow a good thing.

It...it's just mind boggling.

EDIT 2: I actually wanted Ciretose's fighter to have some decent defensive equipment, even though that would make the Fighter much more appealing next to my Ranger; since my Ranger's access to freedom of movement via his class would be less of an advantage; and I wanted his Fighter to have access to stuff that would improve his mobility, or help him deal with obstacles. I would actually like to see Ciretose win this one against the Ranger.

Fighters need certain considerations that fall outside the realm of their class. The people crying over item creation rules are an example of why Fighters can't have nice things, and thus are lacking compared to other classes who at least have in-class options for trying to deal with things.

EDIT 3: I mean, let's look at Shallowsoul's fighter again. That Fighter would get torn apart in a CR 4 encounter at my table. I mean crushed and humiliated. We're talking a 10th level character getting dismantled by enemies of CR 1/4 - 1/2 even.

I admit that I fail when it comes to understanding how anyone could look at that Fighter and somehow thing that's even playable in 3.x/Pathfinder, unless the GM is being excessively kind. That Fighter wouldn't have survived until 10th level, let alone actually be capable of going on a 10th level adventure. EDIT: I mean, he doesn't even get the rules for his own feats right, he doesn't know how his tower shield works, or know how it interacts with total defense (it doesn't at all, actually), and he can't fight defensively while using it for cover, etc). Yet it's this the Fighter that shallowsoul, who has berated anyone suggesting the Fighter might have problems in a game, is suggesting is a decently good Fighter.

*head asplodes*

Andoran

Caedwyr wrote:
So you are arguing that all classes with a poor reflex save are weak?

*whips head around trying follow goalposts.*

Like I said, trying to pin down some people is like trying to pin down water...

I will make the same suggestion I've made in other threads. Pick an AP we both know (I've read them all except Jade Reagent) and let's built the class level by level, using the in game tresure and enemies, encounter by encounter (including non-combat) all the way to the end of the AP (which should be fairly high level).

We've both got 1st level builds, the playing field will either be level or bent in your favor since I'm letting you pick the AP. Set up the messageboard so we can have the spoilers out there and lets go.

Or you can keep moving goalposts around and throwing up strawmen when your narrative gets challenged.

Your call.

(I've made this challenge for other classes as well if someone wants to do a wizard as well. Hell what would be fun is to have 4 people with 4 different classes going through together to evaluate value.)

Andoran

My suggestion personally would be RoTRL, since it is the one the most people are likely to know and it covers the gambit of encounters. I propose 4 people are assigned 4 classes and a panel of a few neutral parties rank each member of the groups value in each encounter.

If Bob were interested, I would be fine with him as a judge. I think TOZ and Gorbacz are also honest brokers who we can all agree have no bias for or against any of the parties.

When the party would level based on XP, everyone would level and we would proceed to the next encounter.


ciretose wrote:

My suggestion personally would be RoTRL, since it is the one the most people are likely to know and it covers the gambit of encounters. I propose 4 people are assigned 4 classes and a panel of a few neutral parties rank each member of the groups value in each encounter.

If Bob were interested, I would be fine with him as a judge. I think TOZ and Gorbacz are also honest brokers who we can all agree have no bias for or against any of the parties.

When the party would level based on XP, everyone would level and we would proceed to the next encounter.

If we do Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne (another of my favorites), there need to be some mild adjustments to the encounters. NPCs either need to be beefed up or more added, because they have lower CRs in Pathfinder. Most everything is like CR-1.

Just tossing that out there.


Ashiel wrote:


I couldn't imagine a Fighter lasting very long in a game where the GM actually bothers to use the toolkit that we have available

A dm can kill every character relatively easy, even the (supossed) almighty wizard is not hard to kill.

Let loos some examples of how screw others classes

Rogue: targer fort, targert will, do a lot of damage, enemies with high perception or scetn or blindsense or something, high AC, dificulty terrain.

Ranger: Kill/dominate his animal companion the first round, target will (it will not be to much higher than a fighter with iron will), force him to waste spells, anti arrows spells if he is archer, force him to move if he use TWF, reduce his str if he is THF, use non favorite enemies. After level 10 use several enemies he will run out of instant enemy spells.

Wizard: FEEBLEMIND, low celing so fly would not help, hordes of weaker enemies masked like strong enemies so he waste spells, enemies with inmunities, freedom of movement, dispel magic, Target his Will save it would not be that high, target the other two saves, imposibility to teleport in centain areas, counter spells, area fire spells to do damage and to burn his scrolls/book or just attack him when he is not ready (in this forum people seems to asume that the wizard allwasy have his defenses up)
And the always important do not let hims rest, you know little and attack when the party is triying to rest.

I mean why allways the fighter is targeted with a dc 28 dominate person, if the Dm (ergo the enemies) think the fighters is weak the other classes are the real threat then i would start casting feeblemind on the arcane caster.

And is seems like the argument have changed again, now is not fighters can not do anhyting outside combat to fighters have low saves.


ciretose wrote:

My suggestion personally would be RoTRL, since it is the one the most people are likely to know and it covers the gambit of encounters. I propose 4 people are assigned 4 classes and a panel of a few neutral parties rank each member of the groups value in each encounter.

If Bob were interested, I would be fine with him as a judge. I think TOZ and Gorbacz are also honest brokers who we can all agree have no bias for or against any of the parties.

When the party would level based on XP, everyone would level and we would proceed to the next encounter.

Please do not use APs, not everyone have played those adventures.


Ashiel wrote:

Core Rulebook

Entangle (reflex partial); spike growth (reflex partial); spike stone (reflex partial); sunbeam (reflex partial or reflex negates); reverse gravity (see text; reflex); whirlwind (reflex partial); grease (reflex partial); web (reflex negates); sepia snake sigil (reflex negates); resilient sphere (reflex negates); forcecage (reflex negates); telekinetic sphere (reflex negates);

CR 1 pit trap (reflex negates); CR 2 spiked pit trap (reflex negates); CR 3 camouflaged pit trap (reflex negates); CR 8 Camouflaged Spiked Pit Trap; CR 12 Poisoned Pit Trap.

Advanced Player's Guide
create pit (reflex negates); aqueous orb (reflex negates); shifting sand (reflex negates); spiked pit (reflex negates); acid pit (reflex negates); hungry pit (reflex negates); vortex (reflex negates); fire of entanglement (reflex partial);

... *yawns* Good morning everyone.

So... about 1/3 of all reflex save spells are not damage spells?

Call me... IMPRESSED. And half of them won't even hinder our fighter too much.

My argument still stands. There is about two classes that have good Ref saves and they do not have much HPs.
So the Fighter is on the main side of the people and still has enough HPs to soak 2/3 of the spells. And if you are gonna QQ now (like you already do) then just take lightning reflexes.

Quote:
I noted before, and I'll note it again, I like Fighters, but they need certain things to be viable unless the GM is coddling the players and not actually playing NPCs to their potential, or using their NPCs as a team, or being devious with their traps, and so forth. Heck, people started crying when Rangers crafted rules-legal items by the rules, using the rules, the core rules, that are in the core rulebook, that are noted as the rules, and not separate from the rules, nor noted as not being rules, and are quite clearly the rules; apparently just because they don't want them to be the rules.

Ok Ashiel. I am close to saying that you got a serious condition. Seriously.

1.
EVERY FREAKING FIGHTER OUT THERE CAN JUST GET THE ITEMS FROM HIS OTHER GROUP MEMBERS AND IF NONE CAN MAKE THEM EVERYONE BUYS THEM ANYWAY.

2.
YOU CANNOT BUY OR CRAFT OR ANYTHING ITEMS THAT ARE HOUSE RULES.

You got it now? If not I am not gonna repeat anymore what five people have repeated in about 20 posts in this Thread now.
Just read it and remember it or don't. I simply do not care anymore. Just stop this b~@!#+&s before you really look like someone that has mental problems.

We all know you just take that Feat to cheese up your Character Wealth in order to make the Ranger look better than the Fighter because he doesn't in a regular contest.
There is absolutely 0% chance that anyone will ever let you double your Character Wealth compared to other party members.
Even you know that CWI pays off enough in a normal campaign because you can ignore GP limits, availability limits, create items for the price you sell your loot at, and always have the perfect gear for your party.

Lantern Lodge

ciretose wrote:
Before you go and worship at the the shrine of Ashiel, you should go back and read the post history. You will find it is full of selective and inconsistent rule interpretation and manipulation. If that is how you want to play, it is a free country. But I think if you try and bring the "The GM is cruel if I can't do whatever I want" mentality to most tables, you won't be welcomed back.

Well, Ashiel was an Idol of mine for a while, not because she cherry picked rules. but because of the way she could be an accomodating and generous yet still sadistic DM and find that perfect feel i fail to find. i guess my fanship has blinded me to several truths. but i have seen a lot of people here manipulate rules. so i figured it to be a normal thing in this community. i don't have the same feelings of entitlement. i have to suck up to Weekly William to get permission to use whatever build i feel. and most of them are nowhere near as over the top as Ashiels, and i realize, that over the top is simply, over the top. above and beyond the limits. i may not like the whole PFS thing, but i was willing to conform with glaivemaster gary.


Alienfreak wrote:
YOU CANNOT BUY OR CRAFT OR ANYTHING ITEMS THAT ARE HOUSE RULES.

Which I haven't. If you want to prove I have, do it with the text. Cite the rule that says anything I've done is not the rules. I've cited the rules that say they are. Otherwise, you are wasting your textual breath on this.

Quote:

We all know you just take that Feat to cheese up your Character Wealth in order to make the Ranger look better than the Fighter because he doesn't in a regular contest.

There is absolutely 0% chance that anyone will ever let you double your Character Wealth compared to other party members.

That's what the feat does, within limits. Players gain treasure with the understanding that you will be able to hit PC WBL without item creation feats, and it is assumed that you will be selling some loot at 1/2 price, and purchasing items at the full price. People who can craft their own items enjoy being able to enjoy a nicer conversion rate.

And actually, there are plenty of GMs that follow the rules. You have basically just whined and moaned a lot, dropping the words "house rules" a lot without any backing, have literally contradicted the rules on several points.

Quote:

You got it now? If not I am not gonna repeat anymore what five people have repeated in about 20 posts in this Thread now.

Just read it and remember it or don't. I simply do not care anymore. Just stop this b+&&@%@s before you really look like someone that has mental problems.

Hm...your concern about mental instability is directed towards me? I am not the one who is not providing actual rule-citations for my claims, and then throwing a tantrum because those rules don't work like I want them to. Also, I think your "Caps Lock" button is malfunctioning. :P

Quote:
We all know you just take that Feat to cheese up your Character Wealth in order to make the Ranger look better than the Fighter because he doesn't in a regular contest.

The Ranger was of comparable usefulness, but had more options in combat. The Fighter had the Ranger are strait hit+damage, which no one ever suggested would not be the case (including myself). I did take Craft Wondrous Item because it demonstrates a strength that the ranger has that the Fighter will never be able to reach on his own (a Ranger can craft anything, a Fighter cannot, ever). I showed my Ranger's class feature to qualify for the feat, and then showing that even with an Intelligence penalty and a -3 Caster Level, I was legally within the rules capable of improving my general contribution to the party.

Since the Figther has to rely on other party members to take the feats, which they may or may not, and has to be a drain on the party's overall resources for them to do so (every day spent crafting an item for the Fighter is a day that could have been spent crafting another item). Even in a group with multiple item crafters, additional item crafters do not detract but expand your range of options. If both the Ranger and the Wizard have Craft Wondrous Item, you get twice the work done in the same time. Only have 1 week of downtime? The ranger busts out consumables and minor items, while the wizard works on the bigger stuff. Or they gear up themselves and the party faster.

A party with a Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, and Cleric can ALL craft magic items, and can even work as a team to contribute. This is especially true since you can co-opt create items, allowing you to craft Wands from all four members, craft multiple wondrous items, have weapon crafting covered, etc. No matter how you slice it, a Ranger and Paladin's ability to Craft magical items is a boon to their class. Item creation is legitimately worth it.

Quote:
Even you know that CWI pays off enough in a normal campaign because you can ignore GP limits, availability limits, create items for the price you sell your loot at, and always have the perfect gear for your party.

It definitely pays off. If you can sell loot at 1/2 and craft at 1/2 then you are essentially getting twice as much loot. That's a normal campaign. That's what the rulebook says. Welcome. :)


Luminiere Solas wrote:
Well, Ashiel was an Idol of mine for a while, not because she cherry picked rules. but because of the way she could be an accomodating and generous yet still sadistic DM and find that perfect feel i fail to find. i guess my fanship has blinded me to several truths. but i have seen a lot of people here manipulate rules. so i figured it to be a normal thing in this community. i don't have the same feelings of entitlement. i have to suck up to Weekly William to get permission to use whatever build i feel. and most of them are nowhere near as over the top as Ashiels, and i realize, that over the top is simply, over the top. above and beyond the limits. i may not like the whole PFS thing, but i was willing to conform with glaivemaster gary.

I'm sorry if I let you down, Lumiere. :(

EDIT: For the record, I'm sorry if you feel something I have done was over the top. Everything I have posted here is within the limits and standards of the core rules. I believe in fairness, and that's why I cite the rules I am using, so that everyone is on the same page and understands. Again, I apologize if I've offended you.

Nicos wrote:

*talking about how to specifically target PCs with stuff targeting them that in some places is borderline metagaming*

And is seems like the argument have changed again, now is not fighters can not do anhyting outside combat to fighters have low saves.

I was discussing the need for ways to counter common problems that arise. Problem solving, as it were. I didn't argue anything about saving throws. The only thing I did was post a list of a lot of game effects that rely on Reflex saving throws that result in bad things beyond taking damage (and in some cases being removed from the battle completely); in response to Alienfreak noting that Reflex saves weren't so important since they're usually damaging effects (which presumably can be shrugged off or healed if it doesn't kill you outright).

Flying off the handle and trying to say I'm arguing something I never said, is not cool.

EDIT: I'm going to take a break here for a while. I think I have little else to say for now. Citing rules doesn't help anything because people don't care. I have a campaign I could be working on, and a character whose backstory I've been meaning to expand upon a bit to get her into my GM's campaign a bit more tightly, and I think that would be more productive to focus on those things right now.


Ashiel wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
YOU CANNOT BUY OR CRAFT OR ANYTHING ITEMS THAT ARE HOUSE RULES.

Which I haven't. If you want to prove I have, do it with the text. Cite the rule that says anything I've done is not the rules. I've cited the rules that say they are. Otherwise, you are wasting your textual breath on this.

Quote:

We all know you just take that Feat to cheese up your Character Wealth in order to make the Ranger look better than the Fighter because he doesn't in a regular contest.

There is absolutely 0% chance that anyone will ever let you double your Character Wealth compared to other party members.

That's what the feat does, within limits. Players gain treasure with the understanding that you will be able to hit PC WBL without item creation feats, and it is assumed that you will be selling some loot at 1/2 price, and purchasing items at the full price. People who can craft their own items enjoy being able to enjoy a nicer conversion rate.

And actually, there are plenty of GMs that follow the rules. You have basically just whined and moaned a lot, dropping the words "house rules" a lot without any backing, have literally contradicted the rules on several points.

Quote:

You got it now? If not I am not gonna repeat anymore what five people have repeated in about 20 posts in this Thread now.

Just read it and remember it or don't. I simply do not care anymore. Just stop this b+&&@%@s before you really look like someone that has mental problems.

Hm...your concern about mental instability is directed towards me? I am not the one who is not providing actual rule-citations for my claims, and then throwing a tantrum because those rules don't work like I want them to. Also, I think your "Caps Lock" button is malfunctioning. :P

Quote:
We all know you just take that Feat to cheese up your Character Wealth in order to make the Ranger look better than the Fighter because he doesn't in a regular contest.
The Ranger was of comparable usefulness, but had more options in combat. The...

1.

GUIDILINES
ESTIMATING MAGIC ITEM GOLD VALUES
DM DISCRETION
INAPPROPRIATE PRICES

I feel like I am repeating myself here. All those are found around the table to make clear what the table is for.
And yet you seem to be the last one in this thread who thinks that you are acting perfeclty RAW. Doesn't this rise some questions inside you? That maybe not the whole world is wrong but you?

2.
Yes thats what the feat does.
But you simply take it out of the reason that you want to use half of your character wealth (and more later) to craft items so you can have 50% more wealth in magic items than the fighter has.

3.
My keyboard is just fine.
No you are not citing rules you are cherry picking rules sections and them present them as UBER PROOF THAT YOU ARE RIGHT.
Just look at the last few pages and your arguments.

4.
Any fighter can use his craft to craft magic items.

So where is your advantage now? Both can be medicore item crafter. Great. Much to be learned here.

5.
If you sell for 50% and craft for 50% you end up at 100% character wealth.
Now look at what you are tryign to do here and you are still trying to cover it up under the great OMG LOOK HOW USEFUL CWI IS IN PATHFINDER mantle.
Everyone and their dog knows that crafting magic items got insanely good if you have downtimes since you don't pay XP anymore.


Ashiel wrote:


The Ranger was of comparable usefulness, but had more options in combat. The Fighter had the Ranger are strait hit+damage, which no one ever suggested would not be the case (including myself). I did take Craft Wondrous Item because it demonstrates a strength that the ranger has that the Fighter will never be able to reach on his own (a Ranger can craft anything, a Fighter cannot, ever). I showed my Ranger's class feature to qualify for the feat, and then showing that even with an Intelligence penalty and a -3 Caster Level, I was legally within the rules capable of improving my general contribution to the party.

Since the Figther has to rely on other party members to take the feats, which they may or may not, and has to be a drain on the party's overall resources for them to do so (every day spent crafting an item for the Fighter is a day that could have been spent crafting another item). Even in a group with multiple item crafters, additional item crafters do not detract but expand your range of options. If both the Ranger and the Wizard have Craft Wondrous Item, you get twice the work done in the same time. Only have 1 week of downtime? The ranger busts out consumables and minor items, while the wizard works on the bigger stuff. Or they gear up themselves and the party faster.

A party with a Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, and Cleric can ALL craft magic items, and can even work as a team to contribute. This is especially true since you can co-opt create items, allowing you to craft Wands from all four members, craft multiple wondrous items, have weapon crafting covered, etc. No matter how you slice it, a Ranger and Paladin's ability to Craft magical items is a boon to their class. Item creation is legitimately worth it.

Even Aelrynth who is not a fighter fan as for example loblaw have show that the fighter is not usseless to craft items, even if he only can do armors and weapons that would be enough to be usefull, even if not he can help the others to craft faster.

Yes the ranger would be better, but the original claim "fighters are usseles outside combat" is far for being prove.


Nicos wrote:
Even Aelrynth who is not a fighter fan as for example loblaw have show that the fighter is not usseless to craft items, even if he only can do armors and weapons that would be enough to be usefull, even if not he can help the others to craft faster.

Funny that people didn't rag on Aelryinth for making custom items when he was saying that the Fighter with Craft Magical Arms & Armor could make items not listed in the books, such as helms, greaves, leather capes, and so forth, which all require him to make them custom according to the item creation rules. Funny indeed.

Quote:
Yes the ranger would be better, but the original claim "fighters are usseles outside combat" is far for being prove.

Since I was never trying to prove they were useless out of combat, nor said they were, why do you push this? At worst, I've said they are lacking in options in and out of combat.


Ashiel wrote:


Quote:
Yes the ranger would be better, but the original claim "fighters are usseles outside combat" is far for being prove.
Since I was never trying to prove they were useless out of combat, nor said they were, why do you push this? At worst, I've said they are lacking in options in and out of combat.

Well then i am a little confuse right now, what are we all arguing about?

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Even Aelrynth who is not a fighter fan as for example loblaw have show that the fighter is not usseless to craft items, even if he only can do armors and weapons that would be enough to be usefull, even if not he can help the others to craft faster.

Funny that people didn't rag on Aelryinth for making custom items when he was saying that the Fighter with Craft Magical Arms & Armor could make items not listed in the books, such as helms, greaves, leather capes, and so forth, which all require him to make them custom according to the item creation rules. Funny indeed.

Quote:
Yes the ranger would be better, but the original claim "fighters are usseles outside combat" is far for being prove.
Since I was never trying to prove they were useless out of combat, nor said they were, why do you push this? At worst, I've said they are lacking in options in and out of combat.

Just which combat options are they lacking?

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:

If we do Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne (another of my favorites), there need to be some mild adjustments to the encounters. NPCs either need to be beefed up or more added, because they have lower CRs in Pathfinder. Most everything is like CR-1.

Just tossing that out there.

You aren't making any adjustments. The whole point is to try to hold you to a written standard. You can pick another AP or go with it as written, I'm not playing the adjustment game with someone who has demonstrated they will change criteria on the fly.


Nicos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


Quote:
Yes the ranger would be better, but the original claim "fighters are usseles outside combat" is far for being prove.
Since I was never trying to prove they were useless out of combat, nor said they were, why do you push this? At worst, I've said they are lacking in options in and out of combat.
Well then i am a little confuse right now, what are we all arguing about?

I don't know what other people are arguing about, but I will give you a summary of my side of it.

  • I feel that Fighters are behind other martial characters in general usefulness, because they are very narrowly focused on combat, and yet they are not clearly superior to their rivals in combat, like other more focused classes are.
  • In combat, I feel Fighters excel at raw +hit and +damage, and have the potential to have a solid AC, and yet have little ways to deal with issues that arise, or defend against things, that are not solved with +hit and armored AC. Note: A solid portion of this problem can be solved with the magic item creation rules, which allow Fighters access to methods to defend themselves. To a lesser extent, Rangers and Paladins have these problems, but they have in-class methods for helping to deal with some of them.
  • Fighters have issues dealing with out of combat situations. Their low skill points put extra pressure on trying to prioritize Intelligence, despite not gaining any benefit for doing so beyond qualifying for Combat Expertise, which may or may not be what you desire. More or less all of the fighter's combat feats and class features do little to help with social situations, general exploration, traps or hazards, obstacles best left unsolved without violence (such as needing to evade an enemy whom is unwise to combat), etc, etc.

    Now the majority of these problems can be offset with system mastery and understanding how the rules and mechanics work, buying the right magic items, avoiding bad feats, careful preparation of your skill points, and so forth. This is why I said I felt the Fighter needs more system mastery to remain viable. It's easier to screw up a Fighter by accidentally picking the wrong things than it is a Ranger or Paladin, since with either of those you can learn as you go, and be mildly weaker but not devastatingly so.

    I actually like Fighters. I can admit they have some problems, but it doesn't stop me from playing them. One of my favorite characters was an elven fighter who dual-wielded kusari-gamas from the 3.5 DMG, renamed and reflavored to short swords on the end of chains. Good times.

    The reason I was presenting a generic ranger as a comparison was pretty simple. It wasn't to show that the Ranger could out do the Fighter in hit, damage, or AC. Merely end up comparable, and to be honest, he was comparable. He was a worthy front-liner or archer as needed (able to do both comfortably), and is capable of dealing with problems in more diverse ways. As for aiding the party and being useful in downtime, he has a variety of skills, crafts magic items, can heal the party, etc.

    I think the Fighter should get a buff. Either he needs to be like the Wizard in the sense that it would be fair for him to suck at non-combat related stuff if he was the hands down absolute most amazing combat monster there was. However, most point out that Fighters are about on par with other martials. You're not really losing much by not having a Fighter in your party, compared to having a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger. You might even be gaining in some instances, and most of those have other tricks they bring to the table.

    It would be kind of like if the Sorcerer had a spell progression similar to that of the Bard. Maybe sorcerer can hit 7th level spells in a favorite specialization, but was otherwise limited to 6th level spells. Then compared to a bard, who gets his 6th level casting, plus everything else his class grants. He might not be quite as powerful as the sorcerer when the sorcerer is using his favorite option, but he's about as good otherwise, and comes with lots more that would help out. The sorcerer would probably still be very playable (in 3.x, the NPC class Adept could keep up with most of the core martials), but it wouldn't really shine nearly as much.

    I hope this helps to clear up where I was coming from. p.p

  • RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Custom items, making armor?

    You can't make armored footwear?
    You can't make a gorget to take the throat slot?
    You can't wear a helm on the head?
    You can't use leather to make a cloak?
    You can make leather straps for armor, but not a leather belt?
    You can make steel over leather gauntlets, but not leather gauntlets?
    You can make a leather jerkin, but not a leather vest?
    You can make plate vambraces, but not bracers or simple bracelets?
    You can make a leather cuirass, but can't sew up the holes and make a leather bag?

    Custom items? What? I'm not the one trying to ignore the very real restrictions on caster level and item bonuses here.

    And Ashiel, you're ignoring the fact that being able to make tons of low level stuff is nigh on useless at higher levels, because of the time restrictions involved in making high end stuff.

    And the fighter will be getting his high end stuff a minimum of 3 levels ahead of you, cash being available...which might or might not be important. Because he can BUY full caster level. That also means he doesn't have the crafting penalties you do, and you know you can't make some of the stuff you say you can.

    No class gets item creation for free, the feats must all be invested. The Ranger sucks at it because of his class, the fighter sucks at it because he has to spend an extra feat. Time and gold are the most important factors, and the Ranger doesn't conjure them out of thin air any differently then any other class.

    ===
    Btw, Aelryinth LOVES fighters. He just acknowledges they've got some gaping weaknesses. He loves them because he played 1E fighters, who had nowhere near the kind of problems they do nowadays.

    ===Aelryinth


    ciretose wrote:
    Ashiel wrote:

    If we do Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne (another of my favorites), there need to be some mild adjustments to the encounters. NPCs either need to be beefed up or more added, because they have lower CRs in Pathfinder. Most everything is like CR-1.

    Just tossing that out there.

    You aren't making any adjustments. The whole point is to try to hold you to a written standard. You can pick another AP or go with it as written, I'm not playing the adjustment game with someone who has demonstrated they will change criteria on the fly.

    Your criteria is meaningless to me. There are no goal posts. You have to have a goalpost before you can move it, and I've had no goalpost. You want to turn everything into a fight. I have no desire to. Personally I liked TarkXT's quiz, but we seem to have drifted away from that.

    Also, who said I would make adjustments? I just said they need to be made if you want to use RotRL or similar, because they aren't up to the Pathfinder standard at the moment. Most foes would be over CRed by about 1.

    Also, I hold myself to the written standard of the game. I haven't deviated from the written standard.

    Andoran

    Ashiel wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    Ashiel wrote:

    If we do Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne (another of my favorites), there need to be some mild adjustments to the encounters. NPCs either need to be beefed up or more added, because they have lower CRs in Pathfinder. Most everything is like CR-1.

    Just tossing that out there.

    You aren't making any adjustments. The whole point is to try to hold you to a written standard. You can pick another AP or go with it as written, I'm not playing the adjustment game with someone who has demonstrated they will change criteria on the fly.

    Your criteria is meaningless to me. There are no goal posts. You have to have a goalpost before you can move it, and I've had no goalpost. You want to turn everything into a fight. I have no desire to. Personally I liked TarkXT's quiz, but we seem to have drifted away from that.

    Also, who said I would make adjustments? I just said they need to be made if you want to use RotRL or similar, because they aren't up to the Pathfinder standard at the moment. Most foes would be over CRed by about 1.

    Also, I hold myself to the written standard of the game. I haven't deviated from the written standard.

    "We" have not drifted "You" have been all over the place like an unhousebroken puppy. You have been moving the goal posts left right and center in this discussion, and frankly in pretty much every discussion I've seen you involved with. Therefore and I do not trust you at all to be able to negotiate and changes at all reasonably, so no.

    I have given you the right to choose the AP, that is more than reasonable flexibility. The deal is the deal, take it or leave it.


    Aelryinth wrote:

    Custom items, making armor?

    You can't make armored footwear?
    You can't make a gorget to take the throat slot?
    You can't wear a helm on the head?
    You can't use leather to make a cloak?
    You can make leather straps for armor, but not a leather belt?
    You can make steel over leather gauntlets, but not leather gauntlets?
    You can make a leather jerkin, but not a leather vest?
    You can make plate vambraces, but not bracers or simple bracelets?
    You can make a leather cuirass, but can't sew up the holes and make a leather bag?

    According to those guys points at Alienfreak and company, unless the item is specifically the premade items found in the book, then you can't make them. So no "greaves of speed" or anything like that. Personally, I agreed with you. I saw no problem with you making a +2 Helmet of Intelligence, because you weren't breaking any rules; so I had no problem with it.

    Quote:
    Custom items? What? I'm not the one trying to ignore the very real restrictions on caster level and item bonuses here.

    None have been ignored. Everything was accounted for, with rule citations and all. Minimum caster levels and all that. Not a problem.

    Quote:
    And Ashiel, you're ignoring the fact that being able to make tons of low level stuff is nigh on useless at higher levels, because of the time restrictions involved in making high end stuff.

    I've never found a time when being able to make elixers, dust of disappearance, or similar things was useless. The elixers are especially nice, because it's a +10 competence bonus to a skill of your choice for 1 hour. +10 is pretty huge. Got a nice +23 Stealth from ranks, +9 from Dex, and +10 competence, makes you are hard fellow to find. :P

    Quote:
    And the fighter will be getting his high end stuff a minimum of 3 levels ahead of you, cash being available...which might or might not be important. Because he can BUY full caster level. That also means he doesn't have the crafting penalties you do, and you know you can't make some of the stuff you say you can.

    Ultimately, we're talking a -3 penalty behind the Fighter's check penalty. The Ranger can hit +27 to result from ranks & intelligence alone. Add in masterwork tool (+2), and a fair competence bonus (+5), and we can comfortably support +34. We can take 10 and beat the DC to make a CL 20 item with a requirement we don't meet (DC 25 + 5 CL lacking +5 spell lacking = 35). In fact, we could actually afford to ignore up to 2 additional requirements. :P

    Quote:
    No class gets item creation for free, the feats must all be invested. The Ranger sucks at it because of his class, the fighter sucks at it because he has to spend an extra feat. Time and gold are the most important factors, and the Ranger doesn't conjure them out of thin air any differently then any other class.

    Ok, you win. Fighters can make every Wondrous Item with Craft (Armor), including portable holes, submarines, ioun stones, elixers, magic dusts, that panther Drizzt uses, and robes of the arch-magi and such. Can we stop fighting about it now? I'm sick of reiterating that Rangers aren't limited to what kinds of items they can create, whereas Master Craftsman limits you to what kind you can create.

    Quote:

    ===

    Btw, Aelryinth LOVES fighters. He just acknowledges they've got some gaping weaknesses. He loves them because he played 1E fighters, who had nowhere near the kind of problems they do nowadays.

    ===Aelryinth

    They were definitely better from what I've heard of them. From what I've heard, they had good saves, good damage, could move and get their extra attacks in, and stuff. I'm actually playing Baldur's Gate I right now, and half my party is filled with Fighters 'cause they're made of win in that too. :P


    ciretose wrote:
    "We" have not drifted "You" have been all over the place like an unhousebroken puppy.

    I disagree.

    Quote:
    You have been moving the goal posts left right and center in this discussion, and frankly in pretty much every discussion I've seen you involved with.

    You need goalposts to move any.

    Quote:
    Therefore and I do not trust you at all to be able to negotiate and changes at all reasonably, so no.

    What? Run that by me again.

    Quote:
    I have given you the right to choose the AP, that is more than reasonable flexibility. The deal is the deal, take it or leave it.

    I'd rather make a deal with anything on this list than you.

    Andoran

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Ashiel wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    "We" have not drifted "You" have been all over the place like an unhousebroken puppy.

    I disagree.

    Quote:
    You have been moving the goal posts left right and center in this discussion, and frankly in pretty much every discussion I've seen you involved with.

    You need goalposts to move any.

    Quote:
    Therefore and I do not trust you at all to be able to negotiate and changes at all reasonably, so no.

    What? Run that by me again.

    Quote:
    I have given you the right to choose the AP, that is more than reasonable flexibility. The deal is the deal, take it or leave it.
    I'd rather make a deal with anything on this list than you.

    As I said, harder to pin down than water.

    I let you pick the AP, all I asked is you actually follow the AP.

    That was to much to ask.

    I'm going to favorite this post for future reference should anyone ask why it is pointless to try to get you to take a stand on anything.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Yeah Gorbacz summed it up pretty well. Ashiel won't agree to any terms or limits they don't put forward. And the levels of frustration and personal attacks are getting out of hand.

    Silver Crusade

    redliska wrote:
    Yeah Gorbacz summed it up pretty well. Ashiel won't agree to any terms or limits they don't put forward. And the levels of frustration and personal attacks are getting out of hand.

    That's because she is going to be proven wrong. Best thing to do would be to actually ignore future posts.

    Lantern Lodge

    i wouldn't ignore everything from Ashiel. i think her campaign logs might sound interesting enough. and if you actually request a build that doesn't utlize custom items. i'm sure she could put some effort into it. you simply need to inform her of the restrictive DM you might have along the lines of weekly william.


    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    i wouldn't ignore everything from Ashiel. i think her campaign logs might sound interesting enough. and if you actually request a build that doesn't utlize custom items. i'm sure she could put some effort into it. you simply need to inform her of the restrictive DM you might have along the lines of weekly william.

    When you put it that way, I am willing.

    ==========================================================================
    Rise of the Runelords is fine. I will roll a Ranger.

    So how do you guys want to do this? Perhaps OpenRPG? OpenRPG allows for exporting logs, which could be posted and examined by people on the forums. How would you have us determine party? Party composition assume Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Martial-Class; or will this be a team of 4 players choosing PCs as desired?

    Details?

    Lantern Lodge

    Ashiel wrote:
    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    i wouldn't ignore everything from Ashiel. i think her campaign logs might sound interesting enough. and if you actually request a build that doesn't utlize custom items. i'm sure she could put some effort into it. you simply need to inform her of the restrictive DM you might have along the lines of weekly william.

    When you put it that way, I am willing.

    ==========================================================================
    Rise of the Runelords is fine. I will roll a Ranger.

    So how do you guys want to do this? Perhaps OpenRPG? OpenRPG allows for exporting logs, which could be posted and examined by people on the forums. How would you have us determine party? Party composition assume Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Martial-Class; or will this be a team of 4 players choosing PCs as desired?

    Details?

    here is how i would do the party.

    Martial, Arcane Caster, Divine Caster, Skill User, 5th wheel. we could do both as PBPS on these boards. i will roll a 1st level rogue. ((i was initially considering a half elf, but some planetouched might be more appropriate)) i also vote we use the elite array to satistfy the people who hate double 7s. 15 14 13 12 10 8.

    Silver Crusade

    15 point buy and which books are being allowed?

    Lantern Lodge

    shallowsoul wrote:
    15 point buy and which books are being allowed?

    elite array, it's like 15 point buy, but harder to milk benefits from and is the base assumption.

    Core Rulebook, APG, UC, UM, and i vote to also allow the 0HD races from the bestiaries 1-3 with the exceptions of drow noble and similarly powerful stuff.

    i might make that rogue a planetouched instead if it's okay. a simple tiefling, or aasimaar. the rogue i have in mind is going to be a little more socially oriented.

    an adopted Aasimaar Rogue named Kotenshi Kaijitsu? a little girl with miniature angel wings sounds cute.


    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    shallowsoul wrote:
    15 point buy and which books are being allowed?
    elite array, it's like 15 point buy, but harder to milk benefits from and is the base assumption.

    The problem, I think, is that people could also complain that the elite array doesn't really let you put your classes' pros and cons to work for you, and favors some classes more than others.

    I'm ok either way.

    Quote:
    an adopted Aasimaar Rogue named Kotenshi Kaijitsu? a little girl with miniature angel wings sounds cute.

    Heheh, indeed. :3

    I don't really do PbP games these days, but I could try to make an exception for you. :o

    Shadow Lodge

    ...Do fighters really suck?
    If so, that's too bad. I like martial classes. I really do.

    Lantern Lodge

    Ashiel wrote:
    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    shallowsoul wrote:
    15 point buy and which books are being allowed?
    elite array, it's like 15 point buy, but harder to milk benefits from and is the base assumption.

    The problem, I think, is that people could also complain that the elite array doesn't really let you put your classes' pros and cons to work for you, and favors some classes more than others.

    I'm ok either way.

    Quote:
    an adopted Aasimaar Rogue named Kotenshi Kaijitsu? a little girl with miniature angel wings sounds cute.

    Heheh, indeed. :3

    I don't really do PbP games these days, but I could try to make an exception for you. :o

    what site is it going to be done on, and how do i submit a character? i'm not very tech saavy. i would love to join. i may modify the concept a little or enter something else entirely.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

    Ashiel wrote:
    Aelryinth wrote:

    Ashiel, you're doing it again...selectively ignoring what you don't like.

    A headband and helmet of Mental stats are effectively the same thing. Nobody is saying you can't make that.

    As for temp items, while you're spending your time making those, I'm making my armor and shield +1 higher then you, buffing up my stat boosters, etc. You spend on temporary buffs and I spend on permanent ones.

    Plus, you need Create Potion for elixirs, which burns you ANOTHER feat. Personally, if I wanted such things, I'd just buy them.

    I hate to keep reiterating that the fighter's restrictions on what he can make are superfluous. He's not going to make a submarine because he doesn't need it. A portable hole would be nice, but since he can make bags of holding or Haversacks, isn't really mandatory. You keep emphasizing 'can make', when all that's important is "Can make what needs". And he can make just about EVERYTHING he NEEDS with those two feats. Only Rings cost true money...and the Ranger will have the same problem, or need to blow another feat.

    And yes, he could make Drizzt's Panther figurine. It only has to be one that he could MOUNT ATOP HIS HELM. Plenty of fantastic adornments on helms, you know? Just like his Feather Tokens will all be helmet plumes.

    AT LEVEL 20, you become a decent crafter, is not an argument. At level 8, you cannot make +4 stat items...the CL requirement is a function of the stat mod, not the spell, and your mods destroy you (with -13 of penalties to the check). The fighter CAN make those things. At level 9 he can make +3 items, no penalties, and +4 with a -5. You have to wait until level 12, because of the CL penalty, to do the same. That's three levels you're consistently behind standard +stat and AC mod items. Give him a +5 Competence item, like you're claiming, and he can make +5 gear! That's very significant in the middle game. FOcusing on the end game is nigh-on useless...by that point, the fighter has been crafting +10 gear for 5 levels.

    So, yes, there's problems with your arguments, and when comparing how fighter does to ranger comes down to crafting, which is not a function of either class, well, that's not good.

    Which is why we emphasizing the 'good crafter' argument is not something to bring up in a class vs class discussion. Crafting is an 'all classes' argument, and since ANY class can become a very effective crafter if they wish, should be avoided in the future.

    ===Aelryinth


    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    Ashiel wrote:
    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    shallowsoul wrote:
    15 point buy and which books are being allowed?
    elite array, it's like 15 point buy, but harder to milk benefits from and is the base assumption.

    The problem, I think, is that people could also complain that the elite array doesn't really let you put your classes' pros and cons to work for you, and favors some classes more than others.

    I'm ok either way.

    Quote:
    an adopted Aasimaar Rogue named Kotenshi Kaijitsu? a little girl with miniature angel wings sounds cute.

    Heheh, indeed. :3

    I don't really do PbP games these days, but I could try to make an exception for you. :o

    what site is it going to be done on, and how do i submit a character? i'm not very tech saavy. i would love to join. i may modify the concept a little or enter something else entirely.

    Well, I generally prefer using dndsheets.net for online character sheets which you can quickly reference. They even have a Pathfinder sheet. It should work it most any browser. Alternatively, a notepad file or some other freely readable format (such as .doc or .pdf) character writeup sent to whomever the GM is would be a good option.

    If OpenRPG is used, then you can create your own character sheets that do automatic dice rolls with a click of a button, and unlike in PbP, it's real-time, with a chat based interface (kind of like having a multi-user Instant Messenger + maps & dice).

    Andoran

    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    shallowsoul wrote:
    15 point buy and which books are being allowed?

    elite array, it's like 15 point buy, but harder to milk benefits from and is the base assumption.

    Core Rulebook, APG, UC, UM, and i vote to also allow the 0HD races from the bestiaries 1-3 with the exceptions of drow noble and similarly powerful stuff.

    i might make that rogue a planetouched instead if it's okay. a simple tiefling, or aasimaar. the rogue i have in mind is going to be a little more socially oriented.

    an adopted Aasimaar Rogue named Kotenshi Kaijitsu? a little girl with miniature angel wings sounds cute.

    It isn't a game breaker, but Aasimaar are a bit off relative to other races since they have two positive and no negative.

    But I don't want to nit pick, so if others are fine with it I'm fine with it.

    So fighter is one (and posted if we are using mine, I'm willing to defer if someone else wants it) Ranger is Ashiel, who wants the other slots and where are we posting this?

    Andoran

    Luminiere Solas wrote:
    I also vote we use the elite array to satistfy the people who hate double 7s. 15 14 13 12 10 8.

    I am ok with this as it hurts everyone equally, but I can see the counter argument as well. I defer to the masses.

    I would love to do a monk if someone else wants the fighter. Good place to start removing the myths.


    Aelryinth wrote:


    Ashiel, you're doing it again...selectively ignoring what you don't like.

    A headband and helmet of Mental stats are effectively the same thing. Nobody is saying you can't make that.

    According to those guys, it doesn't matter. If it's not one of the premade items in the book exactly, then it's not legal by their definition. Personally, I agree with you.

    Quote:
    As for temp items, while you're spending your time making those, I'm making my armor and shield +1 higher then you, buffing up my stat boosters, etc. You spend on temporary buffs and I spend on permanent ones.

    I was responding that you said that making consumables was night useless at higher levels, and that you said that making higher end items was too time consuming. There's also nothing stopping a Ranger or Paladin from crafting high end items. The DCs to craft items are not that extreme.

    Quote:
    Plus, you need Create Potion for elixirs, which burns you ANOTHER feat. Personally, if I wanted such things, I'd just buy them.

    You might actually want to read the magic item rules/creation stuff again. Elixers do not require Brew Potion. They're Craft Wondrous.

    Quote:
    I hate to keep reiterating that the fighter's restrictions on what he can make are superfluous. He's not going to make a submarine because he doesn't need it. A portable hole would be nice, but since he can make bags of holding or Haversacks, isn't really mandatory.

    According to the rules, he can't. Armorsmithing does not cover bags. Just like Armorsmithing doesn't cover general blacksmithing. You might use leather in armorsmithing, but just because two professions/crafts use the same materials does not mean they are the same. Craft Armorsmithing is for Armor and Shields, of which bags are not.

    Quote:
    You keep emphasizing 'can make', when all that's important is "Can make what needs". And he can make just about EVERYTHING he NEEDS with those two feats. Only Rings cost true money...and the Ranger will have the same problem, or need to blow another feat.

    He could burn a feat on it, that's true. Fighters can't ever. But he could. It's actually rather sad that you can't use Master Craftsman to pickup Forge Ring or Craft Rod, because honestly, Craft (Jewelry) would be perfect for it.

    Quote:
    And yes, he could make Drizzt's Panther figurine. It only has to be one that he could MOUNT ATOP HIS HELM. Plenty of fantastic adornments on helms, you know? Just like his Feather Tokens will all be helmet plumes.

    Hahaha. No. The items don't work that way. And people raged at me because I was crafting a +1 intelligence item. You're trying to use Craft (Armorsmithing) to create figurines of wondrous power and feather tokens and trying to justify them as head decorations.

    Quote:
    AT LEVEL 20, you become a decent crafter, is not an argument. At level 8, you cannot make +4 stat items...the CL requirement is a function of the stat mod, not the spell, and your mods destroy you (with -13 of penalties to the check). The fighter CAN make those things. At level 9 he can make +3 items, no penalties, and +4 with a -5. You have to wait until level 12, because of the CL penalty, to do the same. That's three levels you're consistently behind standard +stat and AC mod items. Give him a +5 Competence item, like you're claiming, and he can make +5 gear! That's very significant in the middle game. FOcusing on the end game is nigh-on useless...by that point, the fighter has been crafting +10 gear for 5 levels.

    $@&#$ing #@&$* it dude. Just check the math yourself. The DC to craft something is 5 + ICL. Then you add +5 when you don't have a requirement. Even if the Ranger can't meet the lowest possible caster level of the item due to not being able to cast the spell required, that means the highest the DC is getting is 15 + item caster level. The Ranger only needs a bonus equal to his level +5 to craft anything he wants. +5 dude. +5. That's all.

    At 7th, the Ranger can craft a +6 stat item with a CL of 3rd at DC 13. Take 10 is an auto-success. Because the caster level of a crafted item may be set as low as the minimum level to cast any required spells. So now you have a CL 3 +6 item, and it costs you 18,000 gp.

    Andoran

    Let's see, on the one hand we have someone who is RPG Superstar Top 16 and on the other hand...Yeah...

    This is why the Devs can't let us have nice things...


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Bob Loblaw is obviously unfamiliar with the Rule 0 Fallacy: THE RULES AIN'T BORKEN IF THE DM FIX THEM DURRRRRRR.

    Best way to fix the fighter: give them more skill points and class skills. Even if the fighter is junk compared to everyone else, just letting him do things outside of the combat encounter is the best way to balance him.


    ciretose wrote:

    Let's see, on the one hand we have someone who is RPG Superstar Top 16 and on the other hand...Yeah...

    This is why the Devs can't let us have nice things...

    >implying Paizo understands good design

    >implying Internet credentialism matters
    >implying that your opinion is worth anything

    It's like I'm being trolled!

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