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Why all the Fighter hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Don't craft your weapon...you're blowing your feats for one magic item.

Get Armorsmith ranks,and take Craft Armor and Craft WI. You can craft boots, bracers, helms, gorgets, steel bracelets, vests, leather cloaks and coats, etc...all the wondrous items you'll need.

At half cost.

As well as your armor. Note you can take energy resistances on shields and armor. Half price. Note...Mithral armor you craft yourself is 1/3rd the mithral cost.

If you must craft your weapon, wait until 10+ and get an Int boost item for the skill ranks. The cost savings aren't going to be appreciable until 10+.

There is no PF way to get Death Ward on armor. Soulforge armor is 3.5.
Boots of flying will take care of any mobility issues. Armor plate your boots of speed and you're good to go.
Don't blow feats on AC feats until you run out of enhancement bonuses from crafting. Spend your half-price gold first. Feats are more precious.
Craft a +Resistance leather cloak at half price and keep it at least equal to your armor. It should be +3 at 10th.
Make the cracked ioun stone that suppresses mind=affecting spells on you. Hello, immune to domination and similar effects. Mind Blank would be nice, but it's a 10th+ item.

His high level weapon foundation would be best as a Sun Sword equiv, if he's Good. Add +5 and Wounding and he's good to go.

Seriously, allowing custom items that skirt the rules really throws the crafting rules for a loop.

=Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

Luminiere Solas wrote:
i could (with the elite array and alternative item slots) build a 10th level fighter that is more of a team player than Shallow Souls. it will have a better will save, and have an okay ranged option too.

Now if I really wanted to get down and dirty then I could make the build even better. That was just a quick build using just the core book.

2d8 + 11 per hit isn't bad at 10th level. Now I could have not worried about Craft Arms and Armor, Combat Expertise and Master Craftsman and gone for something else. Touch AC for fighters isn't going to be great and you aren't going to find another class, except for the monk, who is going to have good Touch and regular AC. I actually believe I have enough gold left to purchase a Cloak of Resistance because I created my +3 longsword.

Andoran

I am not interested in the tower shield as it reduces damage and I have a high AC without it.

I'll stop there as Ashiel seems to be winning the "Wall of text" fight I don't want to compete it.

Andoran

Aelryinth wrote:


Seriously, allowing custom items that skirt the rules really throws the crafting rules for a loop.

Welcome to Ashiel's game, where rules are "guidelines" and limiting your players is "cruel"

On topic, the fighter half build is right there with the Ranger all decked out, so I feel pretty good about my side of the argument when you consider the number of things you can do with feats.

Silver Crusade

ciretose wrote:

I am not interested in the tower shield as it reduces damage and I have a high AC without it.

I'll stop there as Ashiel seems to be winning the "Wall of text" fight I don't want to compete it.

How does a tower shield reduce damage or do you mean using a shield itself?

Lantern Lodge

the Team Player Fighter:

Glaive Fighter
Base Attributes
Half Elf Fighter 10
18 (20)
14 (16)
14 (16)
10
12 (14)
8
Gear; Belt of Physical Perfection +2 Headband of Wisdom +2, +3 cloak of resistance, +2 Full Plate +2 Glaive, +2 Spiked Gauntlet, +2 Composite Longbow (+5 STR Bonus) Handy haversack, Ring of protection +1 (Arrows are pocket change)
Racial Traits; Dual Minded (Replace Adaptable) otherwise as per half elf
Class Features, Armor training 2, weapon training 2 (polearms+2, close+1)
Feats; Iron Will, Toughness, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Glaive) Weapon Specialization (Glaive) Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
AC 25 Touch 14 Flat Footed 22
Saves; Fort +13 Ref +9 Will +12
HP 100 (10d10+40)

Offense
Glaive (power attacking) + 17/12 1d10+22 10 foot reach
Spiked Gauntlet (Power Attacking) +15/10 1d4+14
Ranged Composite Longbow (+5 STR) +12/7 1d8+13

Skills; (Favored class bonus = skill points)
Perception (10) +14
Diplomacy (10) +9
Climb(1) + 6
Swim (1) +6
Survival (1) +6
Knowledge (Dungeonering) (1) +4
Knowledge (Engineering) (1) +4
Handle Animal (1) +3
Profession (Soldier) (1) +6
Craft (Bows) (1) +4
Ride (1) +4
Intimidate (1) +3

his touch AC may not be better than Shallowsouls, and His normal AC is a lot lower. but he protects the squishes with his attacks of oppurtunity, can do some minor negotiation, and can assist with some minor things. he also has a reasonable ranged option (not the best, but workable) and his will save is double. i know it's not quite optimized. but he should do just fine. and it doesn't utilize the crafting loophole.

Andoran

shallowsoul wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I am not interested in the tower shield as it reduces damage and I have a high AC without it.

I'll stop there as Ashiel seems to be winning the "Wall of text" fight I don't want to compete it.

How does a tower shield reduce damage or do you mean using a shield itself?

Using the shield means I'm not fighting two handed, and fighting two handed I'm adding 1 1/2 strength and even more from power attack. Not to mention having to spend the feats on shield stuff rather than "versatility", which is the point trying to be demonstrated through this exercise.

What I am showing is a Ranger's versatility is at the expense of reducing their ability to tank (less damage, less AC) and that a fighter can be versatile with the extra feats if that is what the party needs.


Aelryinth wrote:
Note...Mithral armor you craft yourself is 1/3rd the mithral cost.

Yeah. It would only take about 218.75 weeks to craft mithral full plate with a +14 modifier. Go for it! :D

Quote:
There is no PF way to get Death Ward on armor. Soulforge armor is 3.5.

Incorrect. It's a 4th level spell. There are rules for adding 4th level spell effects with durations and caster level as magic item effects. It adds a flat gp cost based on duration, caster level, etc.

However, once again, this goes back to my commenting Fighters are hopeless in any game that you cannot have access to custom items. You can be slaughtered by a simple enervation-bombing. Welcome to dead. Population, you.

Shallowsoul wrote:
2d8 + 11 per hit isn't bad at 10th level.

You're right. It's horrible. Especially for a Fighter. :P

Ciretose wrote:
I am not interested in the tower shield as it reduces damage and I have a high AC without it.

Exactly! Ciretose gets it! Tower shields are terrible for AC, and their special ability is pretty lame too. Ciretose's fighter would get a much better AC just using a heavy shield, and he doesn't even have to invest feats in it; and he ends up with better hit, damage, and touch-AC!

Quote:
I'll stop there as Ashiel seems to be winning the "Wall of text" fight I don't want to compete it.

Good to see you're not getting any less charming. :)

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:


Good to see you're not getting any less charming. :)

You stay consistent and I'll stay "charming."

I would say that if you are arguing with Bob, who may be the most fair and balanced person on here, about what is fringe...well I'll just say maybe you and Ravingdork have one game and the rest of us have the rules.


ciretose wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I am not interested in the tower shield as it reduces damage and I have a high AC without it.

I'll stop there as Ashiel seems to be winning the "Wall of text" fight I don't want to compete it.

How does a tower shield reduce damage or do you mean using a shield itself?

Using the shield means I'm not fighting two handed, and fighting two handed I'm adding 1 1/2 strength and even more from power attack. Not to mention having to spend the feats on shield stuff rather than "versatility", which is the point trying to be demonstrated through this exercise.

What I am showing is a Ranger's versatility is at the expense of reducing their ability to tank (less damage, less AC) and that a fighter can be versatile with the extra feats if that is what the party needs.

What extra feats would the party need, exactly? What extra feats begin to bring the level of support that a basic ranger brings? Also, there's a crap-ton more to tanking than just having a high AC (which a Fighter without specializing will have about 3 points more AC than a Ranger based on armor, assuming shields are equal).

There is a reason Paladins are the hands down best tanks in terms of durability. The self healing is nice, but it's the immunities and saving throw modifiers that make them solid AC tanks and status/spell tanks. Rangers have more tanking options than Fighters have, but Fighters get more AC. But not much more. Which is my point. :P


ciretose wrote:
Ashiel wrote:


Good to see you're not getting any less charming. :)

You stay consistent and I'll stay "charming."

I would say that if you are arguing with Bob, who may be the most fair and balanced person on here, about what is fringe...well I'll just say maybe you and Ravingdork have one game and the rest of us have the rules.

You're always welcome to cite those rules to me, if I'm in error. Go ahead, I'll wait. Bobson did it. Bobson contested a post I made, and in 3 posts, (his, mine, his), I admitted to being in error and thanked him for setting me strait. Instead of being a douche (not that I'm calling anyone a douche, just saying instead of being a douche) and insulting me, my game, other people, baiting, or starting stuff, he just cited the rules and pointed out the relevant bits, and it was over. Plain and simple.

So I'll be waiting for your "rules", and in the meantime I'll be playing by the rules as I read them, until you can show me something different.


Oh I wish I was willing to shell the money out for hero lab as this seems like a fun time to just throw some builds together.


TarkXT wrote:
Oh I wish I was willing to shell the money out for hero lab as this seems like a fun time to just throw some builds together.

Yeah, tell me about it. It seems pretty cool. :)

Lantern Lodge

i don't bother with Hero Lab. i like performing my own calculations, it makes me feel human. the reason i prefer microsoft word, is despite the poor comparative formatting, i can calculate my own bonuses and include the relevant information i need.

the only reason i bother with Neceros is because of my poor manual dexterity and because most of the basic stuff can be indepenently calculated. an okay sheet for home games. it just doesn't store the information i need for specific things that drastically modify builds. like steadfast determination.

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:


What extra feats would the party need, exactly? What extra feats begin to bring the level of support that a basic ranger brings? Also, there's a crap-ton more to tanking than just having a high AC (which a Fighter without specializing will have about 3 points more AC than a Ranger based on armor, assuming shields are equal).

What do you need.

The fighter will have a higher AC without really trying. They will have equal or better movement in that better armor, and that better armor will have a lower armor check penalty. The weapon they use will also be more likely to hit and will do more damage. Because tanks don't just soak damage, they dish it out as well.

All of this, of course, before we add any feats.

So I again ask, what does the party need.

As to the rules corrections, I've never hesitated to correct you in the past, even when your argue with yourself (like above when you criticize someone for how long it will take to craft mithral when you seem to be crafting so much of your equipment...) so no worries on that front :)


ciretose wrote:
Because tanks don't just soak damage, they dish it out as well.

Which neither Rangers, nor Barbarians, nor the almighty Paladin, have trouble doing. :P

Quote:
So I again ask, what does the party need.

Options?

Quote:
As to the rules corrections, I've never hesitated to correct you in the past, even when your argue with yourself (like above when you criticize someone for how long it will take to craft mithral when you seem to be crafting so much of your equipment...) so no worries on that front :)

If you can't see the difference between spending 2+ years crafting the basic armor that you are going to enhance, and taking 1 week between ongoing adventures to craft the majority of your stuff...

Well I'm not sure how to begin to explain that difference. ^~^"


Luminiere Solas wrote:

i don't bother with Hero Lab. i like performing my own calculations, it makes me feel human. the reason i prefer microsoft word, is despite the poor comparative formatting, i can calculate my own bonuses and include the relevant information i need.

the only reason i bother with Neceros is because of my poor manual dexterity and because most of the basic stuff can be indepenently calculated. an okay sheet for home games. it just doesn't store the information i need for specific things that drastically modify builds. like steadfast determination.

Yeah. There is a certain satisfaction doing it by hand, isn't there? I usually end up helping a lot of people make characters, in online and offline games. I'm pretty fond of dndsheets.net, as it has a nice character sheet that auto-calculates weight and such. :)

Lantern Lodge

according to Ashiel, it would take around 5 uninterrupted years to craft a suit of mithril full plate. and that's without the enchantments. magic items craft a whole lot faster than that.

a lot of stuff can happen in 5 years, i'd be careful about 5 year projects you have to stay in civilation to finish.

during those 5 years, the party you left could be a dozen levels higher than you.


yeah if your not an alchemist mundane crafting sucks for anything over about 50g.

Lantern Lodge

Ashiel

whose fighter would you prefer to have in your party?

Shallowsouls selfish cowardly human turtle tank?

or my dual minded team player glaive wielding half elf?

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Note...Mithral armor you craft yourself is 1/3rd the mithral cost.

Yeah. It would only take about 218.75 weeks to craft mithral full plate with a +14 modifier. Go for it! :D

Quote:
There is no PF way to get Death Ward on armor. Soulforge armor is 3.5.

Incorrect. It's a 4th level spell. There are rules for adding 4th level spell effects with durations and caster level as magic item effects. It adds a flat gp cost based on duration, caster level, etc.

However, once again, this goes back to my commenting Fighters are hopeless in any game that you cannot have access to custom items. You can be slaughtered by a simple enervation-bombing. Welcome to dead. Population, you.

Shallowsoul wrote:
2d8 + 11 per hit isn't bad at 10th level.

You're right. It's horrible. Especially for a Fighter. :P

Ciretose wrote:
I am not interested in the tower shield as it reduces damage and I have a high AC without it.

Exactly! Ciretose gets it! Tower shields are terrible for AC, and their special ability is pretty lame too. Ciretose's fighter would get a much better AC just using a heavy shield, and he doesn't even have to invest feats in it; and he ends up with better hit, damage, and touch-AC!

Quote:
I'll stop there as Ashiel seems to be winning the "Wall of text" fight I don't want to compete it.
Good to see you're not getting any less charming. :)

I'm not quite sure you know what you're talking about in some of your responses. Tower Shields are great for AC and fighters don't have to spend feats on a tower shield so I'm not sure where that came from. I know two handed weapons do more damage but sword and board make better tanks.

Investing in a bastardsword would give you a d10 and 2d10 if using Vital Strike. 2d8 +11 is not horrible for a sword and board fighter. I wasn't going for a damage build anyway, I was going for a tank.

Shadow Lodge

ciretose wrote:
I would say that if you are arguing with Bob, who may be the most fair and balanced person on here, about what is fringe...well I'll just say maybe you and Ravingdork have one game and the rest of us have another.

Fix'd.

Silver Crusade

Luminiere Solas wrote:

Ashiel

whose fighter would you prefer to have in your party?

Shallowsouls selfish cowardly human turtle tank?

or my dual minded team player glaive wielding half elf?

Do you understand how a tank works? Tanks are high AC, turtle type characters who take the attacks off the other PCs.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Because tanks don't just soak damage, they dish it out as well.

Which neither Rangers, nor Barbarians, nor the almighty Paladin, have trouble doing. :P

I hope you're joking here.


Now shallowsoul explain how your gonna make the badguys keep swinging at you once they realize they aren't hurting you.

Lantern Lodge

the tower shield actually hinders your AC. it's caps your dexterity bonus at +2, even with armor training, always imposes a check penalty of -10 and -2 to hit. you also don't get the benefit of wielding a 2handed reach weapon.

Reach is a major factor in combat. vital strike is limited to one attack. 2d8+11 once per round is nothing. vital strike and spring attack don't mix anymore. 1d8+11 is a joke. and bastard sword would hinder your damage further.

1d10+22 twice on a full attack plus 4 potential attacks of oppurtunity for the same damage helps a tank much more. even if the attacks don't bypass DR, they will punch through it.reach and attacks of oppurtunity is a far better defense that helps the whole group rather than just the fighter.

Lantern Lodge

shallowsoul wrote:
Luminiere Solas wrote:

Ashiel

whose fighter would you prefer to have in your party?

Shallowsouls selfish cowardly human turtle tank?

or my dual minded team player glaive wielding half elf?

Do you understand how a tank works? Tanks are high AC, turtle type characters who take the attacks off the other PCs.

there is more to tanking than just turtling. how are you going to keep the attacks off the other PCs? there isn't a simple Taunt Option. so the only real response is to punish the enemy for passing you.

high defenses deterr the enemy from you, and low offense encourages them to just walk past you.

Turtling is a selfish defense that only helps the person turtling.

Andoran

@Bob

I am thinking I should go Adamantine rather than. That DR 3/- for heavy armor with no movement penalties seems pretty sweet. It's very expensive, but it is still cheaper than mitral with enhancements.

But I will defer to your judgement.

Andoran

TOZ wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I would say that if you are arguing with Bob, who may be the most fair and balanced person on here, about what is fringe...well I'll just say maybe you and Ravingdork have one game and the rest of us have another.
Fix'd.

Fair.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

:D

Silver Crusade

Luminiere Solas wrote:

the tower shield actually hinders your AC. it's caps your dexterity bonus at +2, even with armor training, always imposes a check penalty of -10 and -2 to hit. you also don't get the benefit of wielding a 2handed reach weapon.

Reach is a major factor in combat. vital strike is limited to one attack. 2d8+11 once per round is nothing. vital strike and spring attack don't mix anymore. 1d8+11 is a joke. and bastard sword would hinder your damage further.

1d10+22 twice on a full attack plus 4 potential attacks of oppurtunity for the same damage helps a tank much more. even if the attacks don't bypass DR, they will punch through it.reach and attacks of oppurtunity is a far better defense that helps the whole group rather than just the fighter.

It's called using tactics. There is actually a feat that will grant you reach with a -2 to your to hit.

Since when did Vital Strike and Spring Attack not work together? When you stay on the move you keep your opponent having to move as well and if they don't posses pounce or some similar ability then they don't get all of their attacks.

Actually it's 2d8 + 11 unless I use my full attack and it becomes 1d8 + 11 and 1d8 + 11.

No board and sword build allows you to wield a two-handed reach weapon. Now it is actually debatable that Armor Training does affect a tower shield since it is armor.

Now if you want a pure damage build then that's not a problem at all.


I am worried by all these builds with perception checks lower than their level + 5 (which I feel is kind of a minimum to be considered a scout). I also feel that dumping INT on a ranger is a bad idea as you are losing those free knowledge checks to determine your opponents weaknesses.

Fighters have only the weapon spec tree for extra damage hence to deal respectable damage they make use of power attack on every swing (with their massive to hit rolls they dont care about losing a few points), so even a sword and board fighter should have powerattack.

You need power attack for damage as otherwise your getting outshined by level 1 barbarians (level 1 barbarians do 2d6+9 with 18 ST and powerattack and thats without rage)

As a pure tank I would prefer a paladin to a fighter, due to the higher saves, fighters are amazing damage dealers for a melee combat class and they dont have to compromise their defence to keep their damage up (unlike raging barbarians)


Talonhawke wrote:
Now shallowsoul explain how your gonna make the badguys keep swinging at you once they realize they aren't hurting you.

I do not like tower shields neither the total defensive build, but I supose that the answer for your question can be Stand still. And besides you only need your enemies to attack you for 2 or 3 rounds, the rest of your party will do the rest (again I like more the Kukri/bashing-spiked medium-shield/ bull rushing build)

Lantern Lodge

shallowsoul wrote:

It's called using tactics. There is actually a feat that will grant you reach with a -2 to your to hit.

only on your turn, Lunge does not help attacks of oppurtunity, it only applies on your own turn.

Shallowsoul wrote:


Since when did Vital Strike and Spring Attack not work together? When you stay on the move you keep your opponent having to move as well and if they don't posses pounce or some similar ability then they don't get all of their attacks.

Actually it's 2d8 + 11 unless I use my full attack and it becomes 1d8 + 11 and 1d8 + 11.

Read either the FAQ or the errata, you cannot combine spring attack with vital strike. Spring attack is a special type of full round action, and Vital Strike requires a single standard action attack. it's the same reason it can't be combined with a charge. it's 1d8+11

Shallowsoul wrote:

No board and sword build allows you to wield a two-handed reach weapon. Now it is actually debatable that Armor Training does affect a tower shield since it is armor.

Now if you want a pure damage build then that's not a problem at all.

A tower shield is not in the armor entry, it's in the shield entry.

armor provides an "Armor Bonus" Shields Provide a "Shield Bonus". plus they are 2 seperate charts. even if they were stack atop each other for space.

Silver Crusade

Luminiere Solas wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Luminiere Solas wrote:

Ashiel

whose fighter would you prefer to have in your party?

Shallowsouls selfish cowardly human turtle tank?

or my dual minded team player glaive wielding half elf?

Do you understand how a tank works? Tanks are high AC, turtle type characters who take the attacks off the other PCs.

there is more to tanking than just turtling. how are you going to keep the attacks off the other PCs? there isn't a simple Taunt Option. so the only real response is to punish the enemy for passing you.

high defenses deterr the enemy from you, and low offense encourages them to just walk past you.

Turtling is a selfish defense that only helps the person turtling.

Realistically most enemies are not going to walk by you and allow you to keep hitting them. Now if that happens in your games then that's your business but that doesn't happen in ours. Creatures around 10th level are going to have around 150 hit points, so 2d8 + 11 per round, plus crits, are felt by that creature so it would not ignore the fighter.


Spring attack and vital strike never worked together.

@Nicos Stand still can work if they provoke if he has more than one guy on him someone is getting away. And if he doesnt keep his dex high (thus making his tower shield pointless) he is only getting one or two AoO.


Luminiere Solas wrote:

A tower shield is not in the armor entry, it's in the shield entry.

armor provides an "Armor Bonus" Shields Provide a "Shield Bonus". plus they are 2 seperate charts. even if they were stack atop each other for space.

I fund that rule questionable, the toer shield is a shield not an armor but it have armor check penalty not shield chek penalty.

are there a FAQ on this subject?


Talonhawke wrote:


@Nicos Stand still can work if they provoke if he has more than one guy on him someone is getting away. And if he doesnt keep his dex high (thus making his tower shield pointless) he is only getting one or two AoO.

Well, that is why i do not like tower shields. but still, the fighter can be a heavy hitter have, a high Ac and protect the rest of the party all in just one build.


Shallow nothing is gonna sit around and take damage while it can't fight back i promise. it might move away it might grapple or bull rush but it won't just stand there and take it while hoping it rolls a 20.

Second you could use a shield and a reach weapon if your a phalanx fighter but thats about the only way. Or use a lance and shield from horse back.

Silver Crusade

Luminiere Solas wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

It's called using tactics. There is actually a feat that will grant you reach with a -2 to your to hit.

only on your turn, Lunge does not help attacks of oppurtunity, it only applies on your own turn.

Shallowsoul wrote:


Since when did Vital Strike and Spring Attack not work together? When you stay on the move you keep your opponent having to move as well and if they don't posses pounce or some similar ability then they don't get all of their attacks.

Actually it's 2d8 + 11 unless I use my full attack and it becomes 1d8 + 11 and 1d8 + 11.

Read either the FAQ or the errata, you cannot combine spring attack with vital strike. Spring attack is a special type of full round action, and Vital Strike requires a single standard action attack. it's the same reason it can't be combined with a charge. it's 1d8+11

Shallowsoul wrote:

No board and sword build allows you to wield a two-handed reach weapon. Now it is actually debatable that Armor Training does affect a tower shield since it is armor.

Now if you want a pure damage build then that's not a problem at all.

A tower shield is not in the armor entry, it's in the shield entry.

armor provides an "Armor Bonus" Shields Provide a "Shield Bonus". plus they are 2 seperate charts. even if they were stack atop each other for space.

Find it and post it. A standard action is still a part of a full round action.

Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw
before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack
bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your
speed and make a single melee attack without provoking
any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack.
You can move both before and after the attack, but you
must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total
distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed.
You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to
you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more
damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make
one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals
additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the
attack twice and add the results together before adding
bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming),
precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses.
These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a
critical hit, but are added to the total.

With Vital Strike all you need is the attack action which you are still granted with a full round action. Vital Strike is one attack and all Spring Attack allows is one attack as well.

Silver Crusade

Talonhawke wrote:

Shallow nothing is gonna sit around and take damage while it can't fight back i promise. it might move away it might grapple or bull rush but it won't just stand there and take it while hoping it rolls a 20.

Second you could use a shield and a reach weapon if your a phalanx fighter but thats about the only way. Or use a lance and shield from horse back.

I've been gaming for over 27 years and as long as the fighter is with in reach then that monster is going for it. Going after another PC because you need a nat 20 to hit is metagaming. That creature is not going to know unless it is rather intelligent and knows combat tactics.


Vital Strike (8/20/10)
Q: Spring Attack has a rather mushy description, but I am pretty sure you can combine it at least with a Vital Strike. I'd also like to have some clarification if you can also combine it with Cleave and Deadly Strike.

A: (Errata 8/20/10) The spring attack feat has been changed in the 8/20/2010 Errata to be a Full-Round action. This prevents one from using Spring Attack and vital strike together.

Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?

A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions List. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]

Q: Can you charge and use Vital Strike?

A: (Jason Bulmahn) Charge is a special full-round action (excluding partial charge). You cannot currently combine a charge and vital strike. [Source]

Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Luminiere Solas wrote:

A tower shield is not in the armor entry, it's in the shield entry.

armor provides an "Armor Bonus" Shields Provide a "Shield Bonus". plus they are 2 seperate charts. even if they were stack atop each other for space.

I fund that rule questionable, the toer shield is a shield not an armor but it have armor check penalty not shield chek penalty.

are there a FAQ on this subject?

all shields have armor check penalty. theirs is an exception in the rules based on the fact it stacks with that provided by armor. but they are on the shield chart, not the armor chart.

Shallowsoul wrote:

Realistically most enemies are not going to walk by you and allow you to keep hitting them. Now if that happens in your games then that's your business but that doesn't happen in ours. Creatures around 10th level are going to have around 150 hit points, so 2d8 + 11 per round, plus crits, are felt by that creature so it would not ignore the fighter.

most monsters at that level are going to have some nasty DR. 1d8+11 is not a lot after factoring the DR of appropriately leveled monsters.

and most monsters will have it.

and i think somebody can ignore a minor nick to get to the squishy caster that happens to be a bigger threat. they don't want to deal with that defense, so they take the minor nick and go after the caster, or even the healer.

and you don't even have reach, which will make that oppurtunity attack a lot harder to get.


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No It's not. If it has reasonable Int at least a 6 Imho then it knows its having trouble hitting you and knows your hitting it just fine. If your DM's play everything dumb more power to you but that would be like saying a wizard is metagaming if he uses fireball to no effect on a demon and the next rounds uses something different.

Silver Crusade

The Spring Attack and Vital Strike debate is still going on from what I've read. Yes they changed Spring Attack to a full round action but Vital Strike requires just an attack action which is a standard action which you still get as part of a full round action.


Talonhawke wrote:

Shallow nothing is gonna sit around and take damage while it can't fight back i promise. it might move away it might grapple or bull rush but it won't just stand there and take it while hoping it rolls a 20.

Well, he can take that feat that force his enemy to attack him.


That only works once per opponet in 24 hours so once per guy.


Talonhawke wrote:


Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?

A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions List. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]

Read this part again Shallow. Its a type of Standard Action that means it can't be used in a spring attack which is say it with me now a Full-Round Action.

Silver Crusade

Talonhawke wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:


Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?

A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions List. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]

Read this part again Shallow. Its a type of Standard Action that means it can't be used in a spring attack which is say it with me now a Full-Round Action.

I've read it. You still get a standard action as part of a full round action. Charging is a special full round action that allows you to move double your speed and attack. I could see Vital Strike not being used but Spring Attack is a different story. I will get an official ruling and come back to that.


Lol no you get a standard action as part of a full round not a full round action. A full round action uses all but the Swift action part of your round.

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