If your entire party has darkvision, you only have to worry about things outside of your sight range, such as drow, who can see you fine from 120 ft. away....
So rather than worry about being subtle, just cast spells with verbal components on rocks so they can be really visible and throw them randomly down hallways.
I think Darkvision is great, but it's not great enough to warrant splitting up from your party, possibly leaving their ability to perceive you, and risk getting killed and placing your party in a worse situation (as now you would be dead, they would be down a party member, and the bad guys know something is up).
While hurling glowing rocks around raises little suspicion.
Guard 1 "What was that?!"
Guard 2 "It's just armored fireflies. Let's go back to all staying exactly where we are and attacking the player in appropriately spaced groups after they have had time to buff."
Guard 1. "Cool plan, bro."
That's not what I said at all. Nor did I suggest that enemies wouldn't react or pay attention to it. You are just being asinine.
Called it.I know how to roleplay a int 7 :) I don't like it. It's a good characterization, for an NPC, however :PYou know a way to roleplay 7 Intelligence, but ability scores are not hard and fast.
Let's be fair here. She never said that the character would be a genius. She said there was more than one way to play an Intelligence 7 character. The scores aren't carved in stone to exactly what they mean. They are intentionally left vague.
Let's take a moment to look at the skills that she chose: Climb, Heal, Perception, and Swim. All well withing reasonable choices for a ranger. None of the skills are Intelligence-based or Trained only. Two just require practice (Climb and Swim). Heal and Perception may require a bit more than just practice but it's not like she claimed that her character was on par with Newton.
Ashiel is willing to provide a build to back up her claim. Instead of attacking her, we should let her do this. We can squabble about specific choices, but squabbling over how someone would role play these theoretical builds seems counterproductive to me.
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Darkvision is nice, though I usually prefer chucking rocks with light spells cast on them down long hallways or into the unknown, since that way everyone can see what is up ahead, not just me. The problem with scouting with darkvision is that if there's something there you don't notice due to a good Stealth check and their having cover or concealment that isn't light-based, then you get mauled and your party is just as blind as they were before, but now they're down a martial.
I added the bold, the rest is all you.
Again, the more I hear about your home game...
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Called it.I know how to roleplay a int 7 :) I don't like it. It's a good characterization, for an NPC, however :PYou know a way to roleplay 7 Intelligence, but ability scores are not hard and fast.
Let's be fair here. She never said that the character would be a genius. She said there was more than one way to play an Intelligence 7 character. The scores aren't carved in stone to exactly what they mean. They are intentionally left vague.
Let's take a moment to look at the skills that she chose: Climb, Heal, Perception, and Swim. All well withing reasonable choices for a ranger. None of the skills are Intelligence-based or Trained only. Two just require practice (Climb and Swim). Heal and Perception may require a bit more than just practice but it's not like she claimed that her character was on par with Newton.
Ashiel is willing to provide a build to back up her claim. Instead of attacking her, we should let her do this. We can squabble about specific choices, but squabbling over how someone would role play these theoretical builds seems counterproductive to me.
That was just a carry over shot from the charisma thread. And let's be honest, she isn't doing what you are describing. You are just holding her accountable for what she is describing by writing it down.
Back to the topic, I've posted a 1st level fighter with 4 skill points per level that is a level appropriate tank and damage dealer and Ashiel has posted her 1st level build. Let's see where we are at for 2nd level.
My fighter is open to feat suggestions, I'm leaning toward furious focus.
I'm getting ready to head out and run We Be Goblins! for some friends. I will probably be gone most of the day. I will compile all the stuff later. I was considering working on my own build just for some kicks.
Darkvision is nice, though I usually prefer chucking rocks with light spells cast on them down long hallways or into the unknown, since that way everyone can see what is up ahead, not just me. The problem with scouting with darkvision is that if there's something there you don't notice due to a good Stealth check and their having cover or concealment that isn't light-based, then you get mauled and your party is just as blind as they were before, but now they're down a martial.
I added the bold, the rest is all you.
Again, the more I hear about your home game...
And again, you flew off in a wildly different direction. Illuminating a hallway so everyone can see what's up ahead, so that the party as a whole can react to it is a far cry from...
While hurling glowing rocks around raises little suspicion.
Guard 1 "What was that?!"
Guard 2 "It's just armored fireflies. Let's go back to all staying exactly where we are and attacking the player in appropriately spaced groups after they have had time to buff."
Guard 1. "Cool plan, bro."
So you took something I said may be done to let anyone see what is up ahead in the dark, if anything, and ran with it in a completely different direction, with an obviously attempt to discredit or imply negative connotations...
That was just a carry over shot from the charisma thread. And let's be honest, she isn't doing what you are describing. You are just holding her accountable for what she is describing by writing it down.
Again, the more I hear about your home game...
And this is why I said you're being asinine.
Let's be fair here. She never said that the character would be a genius. She said there was more than one way to play an Intelligence 7 character. The scores aren't carved in stone to exactly what they mean. They are intentionally left vague.
...
Ashiel is willing to provide a build to back up her claim. Instead of attacking her, we should let her do this. We can squabble about specific choices, but squabbling over how someone would role play these theoretical builds seems counterproductive to me.
Thank you Bob, truly.
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Actually, my little play was in response to this comment you made
I think Darkvision is great, but it's not great enough to warrant splitting up from your party, possibly leaving their ability to perceive you, and risk getting killed and placing your party in a worse situation (as now you would be dead, they would be down a party member, and the bad guys know something is up).
Specifically because you had said the above comment up thread.
See, if you are worried about alerting the bad guys, you shouldn't throw glowing rocks.
Context, it matters.
Waiting for your 2nd level Ranger. I think I'm going to be ahead on damage thanks to furious focus.
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16 strength (18 from boost) 10 points
14 dex 5 points
12 con 2 points
10 int
12 wis 2 points
7 charisma -4total 15 points.
+2 Fighter, +1 Favored, +1 Human = 4 skill points.
Looks like the stat buy of every martial character ive made ever.
Outside of paladins.
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16 strength (18 from boost) 10 points
14 dex 5 points
12 con 2 points
10 int
12 wis 2 points
7 charisma -4total 15 points.
+2 Fighter, +1 Favored, +1 Human = 4 skill points.
Looks like the stat buy of every martial character ive made ever.
Outside of paladins.
That is kind of what I'm going for. I think the premise is silly, so I hope to demonstrate that you can make something that meets the criteria without even trying.
At this point the fighter is power attacking without penalty, has all +2 to both low saves and 4 skill points per level. For damage at 2nd level two handed I will be doing the weapon damage +9 at +6 attack.
I don't like dumb skills as 7 int or similar. Since is a RPG you'll have to roleplay it... boring. It's not only a matter of skill points.
So you only roleplay Int 26 geniuses against which even Einstein would look like a total moron?
This whole x int means you are that intelligent is really boring and so cliche. A character with 3 charisma can also be good looking.
7 Int might not be the smartest guy on the battlefield but unless you give him any complex equations to solve he will be fine.
Human Fighter 1
STR 16 DEX 16 CON 13 INT 7 WIS 14 CHA 7
Feats: toughness, point-blank shot, improved initiative
HP 15 (10 base, 1 con, 1 favored, 3 toughness)
AC 19, Touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+3 DEX, +4 armor, +2 shield)
Initiative 7
Skills: perception 3, Survival 6 ACP -4
Saves: Fort 3, Ref 3, Will 2
Gear: chain shirt, heavy wooden shield, gauntlet, short spear (10), acid flask (5)
weight 70 lb. carry capacity; light 76, medium 153, heavy 230
gold 15
Attacks: short spear thrown (within 30) +5 1d6+4 (x2) 20ft. P, or short spear melee +4 1d6+3 (x2) P, or gauntlet +4 1d3+3 (x2) B, or acid flask +5 1d6+1 (x2) 10ft. acid.
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 1
Init +2; Senses Perception +6
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee glaive +5 (1d10+6/x3) or 2H club +5 (1d6+6) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +5 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +3 (1d3+3)
Ranger Spells (CL 0)
- none yet
========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats - Power Attack
Special - favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy
Skills - Climb +3, Heal +6, Perception +6, Survival +6, Swim +3
Gear - chainmail, heavy wooden shield, glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc).
Notes: At 1st level, we're preparing for general adventuring. I opted for Climb and Swim at +3 since those could be issues during the game, but you might instead want to opt for Stealth +1 instead. At 2nd level, I'd drop 2 ranks into Stealth and grab a masterwork tool (Stealth), like some padded boots or light absorbing cloak or something for another +2, bringing our mods a little closer to respectable in that area. By 3rd level, I'd hope to have upgraded to a masterwork breastplate or something, for the lower check penalty and higher maximum Dexterity (because we will definitely have room for growth in that department, as we will be hitting +9 by 20th).
In the meantime, he has a solid AC of 18 while doing general fighting. If need be, he can draw his shield as part of a move action due to having a +1 or higher BAB, which allows him to move about while swapping his gear as needed. The shield brings his AC to 20. If he fights defensively, he has AC 22 with a +1 to hit with his weapons. If he total defenses, such as if he is just trying to act as cover for his allies or block movement to them, he hits AC 24. I'm okay with that.
Early on, I'd try to convince the party to all chip in to get some happy sticks, so I can try to heal the party between encounters, or pickup somebody who has been knocked into negatives. I got Heal so that I can administer first aid when needed, help treat poisons and diseases (I can take 10 and beat most common ones), and double our rate of natural healing for HP and ability damage (so we recover HD * 2 HP / 2 ability score damage per day, or HD * 4 HP / 4 ability score damage if resting proper).
I went with half-orc for this example because I agree Darkvision is nice, though I usually prefer chucking rocks with light spells cast on them down long hallways or into the unknown, since that way everyone can see what is up ahead, not just me. The problem with scouting with darkvision is that if there's something there you don't notice due to a good Stealth check and their having cover or concealment that isn't light-based, then you get mauled and your party is just as blind as they were before, but now they're down a martial.
Normally, I'd probably go with Human for the bonus feat and skill points, or Half-Elf for the low-light vision. If you go half-elf, it's not a bad idea to multi-class Fighter until 5th level, so you can have your cake and eat it too. Also, Skill Focus (Stealth) at 1st level means that you can be a Stealth-monkey out of the box, even in armor, and it only gets better later. You can afford to pull back on Strength to 16 if you go Dwarf (dwarfs are excellent for their resistances, and wearing medium armor isn't an issue for you, in which case you might consider investing skill points into Acrobatics pretty heavily) or Elf (elves get a bump to Dex and Int, which adjusts the way you play a little bit, but their low-light vision is pretty superior for general scouting, as you can Stealth in the dim area which cannot be penetrated by darkvision or seen by creatures without low-light vision). If you go with gnome, you get auto-qualification for item creation feats, a +1 bonus to hit and AC, but you're going to lose some strength; so you should definitely consider being a mounted archer/lancer if this is your route. Halflings are also excellent mounted archers, and even with a 14 Strength, and a 16 Dex, the +1 to hit and AC is huge, your Stealth with be huge due to the +4 size modifier, and so forth. I'm also fond of Goblin rangers, who are arguably the best mounted archers, sneaks, and riders, who also have darkvision and are small size with a 30 ft. speed.
So really, you have some nice options, depending on whatever path you want to take. The above is merely one iteration, but it's enough to discuss some basic strategies.
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 2
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 17.5 (2d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee glaive +6 (1d10+6/x3) or 2H club +6 (1d6+6) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +6 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +4 (1d3+3) or mwk composite (+4) longbow +5 (1d8+4/x3)
Ranger Spells (CL 0)
- none yet
========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +2, CMB +6, CMD 18
Feats - Power Attack, Rapid Shot
Special - favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy
Skills - Climb +3, Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Perception +7, Stealth +2, Survival +6, Swim +3
Gear - chainmail, mwk composite (+4) longbow, heavy wooden shield, glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc).
Notes: The above is a sample half-orc ranger, modified from the 1st level half-orc ranger. If Human feats should include Iron Will or Furious Focus (I prefer Iron Will since most foes will have low HD at this point, so the extra +3 damage is often overkill, but it depends on your GM I guess). If Half-elf feats should include Skill Focus (Perception) or (Stealth). I prefer Perception in general, because Stealth isn't always viable, but Perception is used for a lot of things. If Halfling, Gnome, or Goblin get a +2 composite bow and a lance, then spend other money on a mount, invest in Ride and Stealth, and ride around dealing double damage on charges and full-attacking while moving. Goblins are best in this venue.
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 3
Init +2; Senses Perception +8
========================================================================
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 24 (3d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +5
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk glaive +8 (1d10+6/x3) or 2H club +7 (1d6+6) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +7 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +5 (1d3+3) or mwk composite (+4) longbow +6 (1d8+4/x3)
Ranger Spells (CL 0)
- none yet
========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +3, CMB +7, CMD 19
Feats - Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Iron Will, Endurance
Special - favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy, favored terrain (underground)
Skills - Climb +3, Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Perception +8, Stealth +5, Survival +8, Swim +3
Gear - chainmail, mwk composite (+4) longbow, heavy wooden shield, mwk glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc), oil of magic weapon (5), potion of enlarge person (5), mwk tools (stealth, survival)
Notes: By 3rd level, I would suggest rounding out your load-out. Consider buying some oils of magic weapon to deal with DR/magic, incorporeal foes, or give an extra +1 to hit & damage if needed (oils can be applied to any of your weapons, making them fairly versatile). Purchase a few potions of enlarge person so you can self-buff without relying on your party's arcanist. Purchase a masterwork tool (survival), and masterwork tool (stealth). Consider picking up a mwk melee weapon with your spare cash. If Human add feats previously mentioned, add 3 skill points (I recommend starting on Ride and Handle Animal). If Half-elf prepare to take a quick 2 level dip of Fighter for Improved Initiative and Precise Shot, as well as an extra +3 Fortitude. If halfling, gnome, or goblin, either take Mounted Combat or Improved Initiative. Alternatives You can take Direhard this level immediately due to picking up Endurance for free, which can be a nice cushion, but this basically makes half-orc ferocity useless. Toughness can also boost your HP.
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 4
Init +3; Senses Perception +9
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 38.5 (4d10+8)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +6
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk glaive +9 (1d10+6/x3) or 2H club +8 (1d6+6) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +8 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +7 (1d3+3) or mwk composite (+4) longbow +8 or +6/+6 (1d8+4/x3)
Ranger Spells (CL 1st)
1st - resist energy or entangle
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Str 18, Dex 16 (15), Con 14 (13), Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +4, CMB +8, CMD 20
Feats - Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Iron Will, Endurance
Special - favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy, favored terrain (underground)
Skills - Climb +3, Handle Animal +3 (+7 companion), Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Perception +9, Stealth +7, Survival +9 (+11 tracking), Swim +3
Gear - chainmail, mwk composite (+4) longbow, heavy wooden shield, mwk glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc), oil of magic weapon (5), potion of enlarge person (5), mwk tools (stealth, survival), +1 Constitution (belt), +1 Dexterity (chest), +1 resistance (body).
Notes: At 4th level, our Ranger puts 1 point into Dexterity for reaching 4HD. We spend 2,000 gp worth of resources for a +1 Dex and +1 Con, and a +1 resistance item. We also get our animal companion, chosen to taste. I recommend grabbing a warhorse or something similar, as mounts can be very useful. If you are small size, check with your GM to see if you can have a flying bat animal companion (see Bestiary bat entry for animal companion stats), since they're not very fast but they can fly, bringing you 3D combat opportunities. If Human add appropriate feats, put more points into Handle Animal and Ride. If Half-elf take this level if you want your animal companion now, otherwise dip Fighter 1 for Improved Initiative and +2 Fortitude. If halfling, gnome, or goblin you get your animal companion (read: regenerating mount) this level. Hurray!
Going to take a break for a moment, but here are some numbers I'm shooting for.
He can reliably hit Perception DCs up to DC 19 by taking 10. In general, this will mean that as long as he's not actively in combat, the Stealth DC to sneak up on him, for demonstrative purposes, is about 19. That's good enough to generally notice things up to CR 5 without too much issue (a cloaker has a +8). His Stealth is decent enough that using Stealth is decent if he has cover/concealment, and can potentially use distance to his advantage (offsetting large disparities). I could re-arrange his gear to give him a better AC, but right now 18 is 45% avoidance against a CR 5 Troll, and up to 75% avoidance if he's using Sword & Board + Fighting Defensively, which I feel is fair. You could alternatively hook him up with a masterwork breastplate by 4th level, which would raise his AC to 19 (due to higher Dexterity limit) and lower his check penalties by 2, giving him a +5 Climb and Swim, and a +9 Stealth. So it's a matter of preference (I'm a bit paranoid about saving throws, so I opted for a resistance item.
Could have some issues with Beared Devils at CR 5. Their Stealth modifier is a whopping +11, which means they're good at sneakin' up on even the Ranger; and they can use their Surprise round to greater teleport into the midst of your party and catch you off guard (if they beat your party's initiatives, you can have trouble!).
In general, I feel he's pretty well-rounded, and good at Fighting. You also get your first spells at 4th level. I recommend either resist energy or entangle. Both are good, and neither relies on saving throws to get some benefit (entangle is still a huge radius and slows 1/2 speed on a successful save). In general, I prefer resist energy for general adventuring. It can make you immune to alchemist fire spamming, which is deadly to tanks (4th level Ranger or Fighter vs 12 CR 1/4 kobolds? Both die without fire resistance, as 12d6 worth of alchemist fire hits them, and 12d6 more fire damage on the next turn :P).
Going to get a drink. Good morning everyone. ^-^
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Couple of quick hitters, I'm not going to worry about equipment as it is a comparison not a competition.
By third level the fighter is more mobile than the ranger (full movement in medium armor) and the saves against fear are much higher. Or he can kick it up to full plate armor and still get the +2 dex bonus for a total AC of +11 before any bonuses from armor. Also, my armor check penalty is down by one, vs the Ranger, so on 9 skills I'm one better naturally. For the purposes of the exercise I'll stay in the same armor to demonstrate the advantage, which I believe brings me ahead in skills overall when correcting for penalties...
He could take improved iron will or lightning reflexes at this point for his 3rd level feat, or go skill focus...really anything as he will be getting a combat feat next level.
At 4th level, we get that combat feat, I'll look later, but feel free to make suggestions. I don't feel that despite my half-effort in building this thing that in any way the Fighter is falling behind at this point, but I'm sure I'll hear otherwise...
Half-Orc Ranger, 1st Level:
Half-Orc Ranger, 2nd Level:
Half-Orc Ranger, 3rd Level:
Half-Orc Ranger, 4th Level:
Init +7; Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Perception +10
========================================================================
AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +3 dex)
Hp 46 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +6
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 30 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk glaive +10 (1d10+12/x3) or 2H club +9 (1d6+6) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +9 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +8 (1d3+3) or mwk composite (+4) longbow +9 or +7/+7 (1d8+4/x3)
Ranger Spells (CL 2nd)
1st - resist energy, entangle
========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 16 (15), Con 14 (13), Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +5, CMB +9, CMD 21
Feats - Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Iron Will, Endurance, Furious Focus
Special - favored enemy (undead) +4, favored enemy (animal) +2, track, wild empathy, favored terrain (underground)
Skills - Climb +5, Handle Animal +6 (+10 companion), Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Perception +10, Stealth +11, Survival +10 (+12 tracking), Swim +5
Gear - mithral breastplate, mwk composite (+4) longbow, heavy wooden shield, mwk glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc), oil of magic weapon (5), potion of enlarge person (5), mwk tools (stealth, survival), +1 Constitution (belt), +1 Dexterity (chest), +1 resistance (body)
Notes: At 5th level, I broke down and traded in his armor for some mithral breastplate. The check penalty is now -0 (mithral + masterwork), movement speed raises to 30 ft. from 20 ft., and all our skills just improved noticeably. Our maximum Dexterity bonus is now +5, so we'll be using this armor for quite a while. I chose favored enemy (animal) because it's another wide-reaching type. I chose Furious Focus at this level because enemies are getting more HP and the +6 to damage is pretty nice.
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 6
Init +3; Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Perception +11
========================================================================
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +3 dex)
Hp 53.5 (6d10+12)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +7
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 30 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk glaive +11/+4 (1d10+12/x3) or 2H club +10/+3 (1d6+12) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +10/+5 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +9 (1d3+3) or +1 composite (+4) longbow +11/+6 or +9/+9/+4 (2d8+10/x3 then 1d8+5/x3)
Ranger Spells (CL 3rd)
1st - resist energy, entangle or abundant ammunition
========================================================================
Str 18, Dex 16 (15), Con 14 (13), Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +6, CMB +10, CMD 23
Feats - Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Iron Will, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Manyshot
Special - favored enemy (undead) +4, favored enemy (animal) +2, track, wild empathy, favored terrain (underground)
Skills - Climb +5, Handle Animal +6 (+10 companion), Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Perception +11, Stealth +12, Survival +11 (+14 tracking), Spellcraft +3, Swim +5
Gear - +1 mithral breastplate, +1 composite (+4) longbow, +1 heavy wooden shield, mwk glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc), oil of magic weapon (5), potion of enlarge person (5), mwk tools (stealth, survival), +1 Constitution (belt), +1 Dexterity (chest), +1 resistance (body)
Notes: This level we pick up Manyshot without qualifying for it (whee!) which gives us a sexy opener at 2d8+10. We upgrade our longbow to +1 for 2,000 gp by having it enhanced somewhere. We drop 2,000 gp total to get our armor and shield up to +1 each, bringing our AC to 20/23/25/27 for normal/shield/fighting defensively/total defense. We have about 1,000 gp left over to play with, so we'll buy up some exotic arrows or and potions and such. Next level stuff gets really nice. Gnabbed Spellcraft with 2 ranks and we're going to crush it next level.
Medium humanoid (orc) ranger 7
Init +3; Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Perception +12
========================================================================
AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +3 dex); w/ shield 25, w/defensive 27, w/total defense 29
Hp 61 (7d10+14)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +7
Defensive Abilities - Ferocity
========================================================================
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk glaive +12/+5 (1d10+12/x3) or 2H club +11/+4 (1d6+12) or 1H club (1d6+4) or spiked gauntlet +11/+6 (1d4+4)
Ranged sling +10 (1d3+3) or +1 composite (+4) longbow +12/+7 or +10/+10/+5 (2d8+10/x3 then 1d8+5/x3)
Ranger Spells (CL 4th)
2nd - spike growth or barkskin or cat's grace or wind wall
1st - resist energy, entangle; 2 Pearls
========================================================================
Str 19 (18), Dex 16 (15), Con 14 (13), Int 8 (7), Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7, CMB +11, CMD 24
Feats - Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Iron Will, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Craft Wondrous Item
Special - favored enemy (undead) +4, favored enemy (animal) +2, track, wild empathy, favored terrain (underground), woodland stride
Skills - Climb +5, Handle Animal +6 (+10 companion), Heal +6, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Perception +12, Stealth +18, Survival +12 (+16 tracking), Spellcraft +18, Swim +5, Linguistics +0 (2 languages), Disguise +8 (disguise self)
Gear - +1 mithral breastplate, +1 composite (+4) longbow, +1 heavy wooden shield, mwk glaive, spiked gauntlet, club, sling, 10 gp worth of adventuring gear (recommended waterskin, sacks, crushed chalk, empty flasks, etc), oil of magic weapon (5), potion of enlarge person (5), mwk tools (+5 stealth, +2 survival, +5 spellcraft), +1 Constitution (belt), +1 Dexterity (chest), +1 Resistance (body), +1 intelligence item w/ disguise (head), +1 natural armor (neck), +1 deflection (wrist), pearl of power I (2), +1 strength (gloves), +10 ft. speed (boots), quiver of abundant ammo, elixer of hiding (1)
Notes: We have about 11,130 gp worth of equipment. By this level we should have 23,500 gp, so we have a budget of about 12,370 gp. Let's take advantage of our options and do a bit of leveling up here!
This level we dump another 5 skill points into Spellcraft, and pickup Craft Wondrous Item, qualifying for it due to our caster level. Grabbing some mwk tools (spellcraft) to aid in item creation, bringing our modifier to +9. We take 1 week to craft a +1 natural armor bonus item (DC 13) for 1,000 gp, a +1 deflection item (DC 13) for 1,000 gp, a pearl of power I (DC 6) for 500 gp, enhance our mwk tools to provide a +3 competence bonus on Stealth and Spellcraft for 900 gp. We then adventure a bit. Then we take another week to craft a +1 intelligence item (DC 13) for 500 gp (giving us another 7 skill points, which we use to round out our skills), and another pearl of power I (500 gp), an elixer of hiding (DC 20) for 125 gp, add a hat of disguise effect to our +1 intelligence item (DC 11) for 1,350 gp, and create a +1 strength magic item (DC 11) for 500 gp (in preparation for 8th level). Total gear cost: 18,280 gp / 23,500. With about 5,910 gp left, we craft a quiver that has a permanent abundant ammunition on it for about 3,000 gp, and purchase some adamantine, silver, and cold iron arrows, leaving us with about 2,000 gp left for general purposes. Just for poops & giggles, we'll craft some boots of striding for 1,000 gp.
I'm going to take another break right here. ^-^
I didn't really put much emphasis on some of the general stuff he gets, like woodland stride and favored terrain, but they might be useful. I should also stat out the animal companion, since it's essentially a second character I get as a minion. I was thinking warhorse, since I can take 10 and train him for purposes or difficult tasks (DC 20), and mounted archery is exceptionally strong (if in the open, the horse can move 60 ft. / round while I full attack from atop of the horse with no penalties), which keeps me highly mobile while dishing out the damage.
At 7th level, I got access to 2nd level spells, which I have one of due to Wisdom 14 granting a bonus spell. Which spell is mostly a matter of preference. For general buffs, Cat's Grace increases most of your stuff by +1. Barkskin is decent, and lasts almost an hour. I personally prefer Spike Growth and Wind Wall, which are two seriously effective battlefield control spells which work well regardless of your stats (allowing you to protect your party from archers, or allowing you to crush land-bound units). At 8th level, you don't have to choose between the two, as you can prepare both.
Currently sporting a 22 AC without a shield; 40 ft. land speed; no check penalties; a maximum dex mod of 5 (which we can grow into before eventually replacing with Celestial Armor entirely); a respectable +12 to hit; solid damage; solid Hp; a wide variety of useful skills; some battlefield control and defensive abilities; Speak 4 languages (common, orc, 2 others of choice); a few non-combat options; an expendable cohort/mount. I'd like to have some +2 weapons and a +3 armor by 10th level, and probably will need to take Craft Magical Arms & Armor at 11th or something, to ensure that I can get solid equipment without relying on GM intervention, adding to another party member's workload, or expending lots of money and/or services to NPCs whom I could commission creation from.
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** spoiler omitted **...Half-Orc Ranger, 1st Level:
Half-Orc Ranger, 2nd Level:
Half-Orc Ranger, 3rd Level:
Half-Orc Ranger, 4th Level:
I'm running around a bit today, so only skimming...At 7th level you can move 30 feet in medium armor thanks to boots of speed. With those same boots I can move 40 feet in heavy armor thanks to armor training. For comparision I can get a full plate version of your breast plate hand have the same armor check penalty and max dex with a +3 to AC and no movement penalty.
Which is nice.
So your 22 AC is likely going below the fighters at 7th level, and I should be outdamaging you significantly with weapon training before taking feats like weapon specialization.
I'll do more detailed when I'm done running errands, but so far I personally am not seeing it. Maybe someone else is?
She's considering spells to give the edge, i.e. your mobility isn't going to mean so much if you are faced with Spike Growth or Entangle, and she can walk through an alchemist's fire barrage where you would die.
Also, neither of you have made any considerations for crafting,although for the fighter that would simply consist of buying that crafting bracelet and a +2 Int headband (smithing).
Your short term AC advantage is going to weighed against Barkskin's +3 Bonus, which escalates more rapidly then your training.
Gravity Bow and Lead weapon effectively add 3-4 points of damage per spell, which is another nice buff.
It's also notable that your Weapon training is lower then her FE on any creature she's opposed to at this level. Only weapon spec is giving you an edge, and that's not against the primary (say, undead in the Carrion Crown, or human in Curse of the Crimson Throne?)
===Aelryinth
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She's considering spells to give the edge, i.e. your mobility isn't going to mean so much if you are faced with Spike Growth or Entangle, and she can walk through an alchemist's fire barrage where you would die.
Also, neither of you have made any considerations for crafting,although for the fighter that would simply consist of buying that crafting bracelet and a +2 Int headband (smithing).
Your short term AC advantage is going to weighed against Barkskin's +3 Bonus, which escalates more rapidly then your training.
Gravity Bow and Lead weapon effectively add 3-4 points of damage per spell, which is another nice buff.
It's also notable that your Weapon training is lower then her FE on any creature she's opposed to at this level. Only weapon spec is giving you an edge, and that's not against the primary (say, undead in the Carrion Crown, or human in Curse of the Crimson Throne?)
===Aelryinth
FE is against a subset, WT and WS are against everything.
Gravity Bow and Lead blades are a standard action to cast with verbal and somatic, minutes per level. So one combat per day if you take a round to cast, for the rest of the combat you will do more damage.
What you said about crafting is fine, although I think we both agree in game that role usually goes to someone else, and following the logic I have more feats to spend on it.
Barkskin is fine, and so is an amulet of natural armor which barkskin doesn't stack with. And while 10 minutes a level is better than 1 minute, that is still only a little over an hour of a 24 hour day.
At this point the fighter has I believe a two feat advantage (more in this example, but that is unfair given the circumstances), should be ahead on armor and speed, and should be competitive with this build on skills.
All I am trying to demonstrate is that the "Fighter Suck!" is hyperbole, particularly in comparison to other martial classes. This fighter I am putting pretty much no effort into isn't being outclassed so far I don't think, despite the fact that all that I'm basically doing is saying "Give me what she's having to 'optimize' a ranger build, how am I holding up?"
I think I've taken one feat she can't (weapon specialization) and she took manyshot, which I can't take without major changes to the character
Ashiel:
You are still surpassing your Character Wealth here.
Crafting Items doesn't make Character Wealth go away.
Notes: We have about 11,130 gp worth of equipment. By this level we should have 23,500 gp, so we have a budget of about 12,370 gp. Let's take advantage of our options and do a bit of leveling up here!
This level we dump another 5 skill points into Spellcraft, and pickup Craft Wondrous Item, qualifying for it due to our caster level. Grabbing some mwk tools (spellcraft) to aid in item creation, bringing our modifier to +9. We take 1 week to craft a +1 natural armor bonus item (DC 13) for 1,000 gp, a +1 deflection item (DC 13) for 1,000 gp, a pearl of power I (DC 6) for 500 gp, enhance our mwk tools to provide a +3 competence bonus on Stealth and Spellcraft for 900 gp. We then adventure a bit. Then we take another week to craft a +1 intelligence item (DC 13) for 500 gp (giving us another 7 skill points, which we use to round out our skills), and another pearl of power I (500 gp), an elixer of hiding (DC 20) for 125 gp, add a hat of disguise effect to our +1 intelligence item (DC 11) for 1,350 gp, and create a +1 strength magic item (DC 11) for 500 gp (in preparation for 8th level). Total gear cost: 18,280 gp / 23,500. With about 5,910 gp left, we craft a quiver that has a permanent abundant ammunition on it for about 3,000 gp, and purchase some adamantine, silver, and cold iron arrows, leaving us with about 2,000 gp left for general purposes. Just for poops & giggles, we'll craft some boots of striding for 1,000 gp.
A few questions:
1) What are masterwork spellcraft tools? Spellcraft isn't actually a craft skill so I don't think you can just pick up masterwork crafting tools for it. Artisan's tools are for Craft checks. I didn't see anything for Spellcraft, which is not a Craft check.
2) If you are going to be using your extra cash for creating items, you can exceed your WBL according to Paizo's FAQ.
3) When discussing creating items, I think it would be best to stick to the items already created instead of using the crafting guidelines. Those are for the GM, not the player, to use in determining value. I say this only because it can get real murky later on. Personally, I don't have a problem with a skill enhancing item but so we don't start down a road of "this but not that" arguments I think we should leave that alone. That goes for adding things to existing items. So the hat of disguise/headband of Intelligence item should be a no-go. This would also eliminate the permanent abundant ammunition quiver.
For home games, I love using those tables. For these discussions, they are a major sticking point very quickly.
Ashiel:
You are still surpassing your Character Wealth here.
Crafting Items doesn't make Character Wealth go away.
It actually does according to the FAQ.
I don't agree with that ruling, but it is official and therefore valid for these discussions.
I'm running around a bit today, so only skimming...At 7th level you can move 30 feet in medium armor thanks to boots of speed. With those same boots I can move 40 feet in heavy armor thanks to armor training. For comparision I can get a full plate version of your breast plate hand have the same armor check penalty and max dex with a +3 to AC and no movement penalty.
Which is nice.
It is nice. However, mithral full plate costs 10,500 gp (1,500 gp base price +9,000 gp). Medium armor is 5,000 gp cheaper in mithral, which helps to get it in a timely fashion, and makes it easier to find community-wise. The Fighter should definitely get him some mithral full plate though.
However, mithral notes that it reduces the speed penalty for your armor, so my land speed is 30 ft +10 ft. striding, which is 40 ft. I'd be moving at 30 ft. with the boots if I was wearing mithral heavy armor, but I have no desire to do so at the moment, since I like the speed boost which affects my stealth speed, adds a +4 to acrobatics made to Jump, increases my climbing speed, and increases my swimming speed.
So your 22 AC is likely going below the fighters at 7th level, and I should be outdamaging you significantly with weapon training before taking feats like weapon specialization.
I'll do more detailed when I'm done running errands, but so far I personally am not seeing it. Maybe someone else is?
Well I'm not competing in terms of raw damage. That's essentially all Fighters have. I've noted, repeatedly I might add, that Fighters are probably the best core class when it comes to flat hit and damage modifiers; but that 3.x/PF combat is very dynamic and there is a lot more to consider than +hit/damage, and challenges outside of combat are rarely solved with +hit/damage.
Ashiel:
You are still surpassing your Character Wealth here.
Crafting Items doesn't make Character Wealth go away.
If we were building the characters on the fly, then I'd agree. However, there is effectively no non-metagame way to prevent the Ranger or any other crafter from getting their treasure appropriately, as if you lower the amount of treasure that is gained to try to compensate, then you will force the other party members to fall below WBL.
For example, if the 4-person party would get 1,000 gp, then everyone's share is 250 gp. The ranger then crafts wondrous items at 1/2 cost, effectively making his share 500 gp if he is crafting his own gear. If the GM makes the treasure value 500 gp, the ranger effectively gains 250 gp worth of gear, but everyone else ends up with 125 gp worth of gear.
Short of forcing a players to split their treasure in unrealistic ways, you will not succeed in this endeavor. The book describes these as guidelines, and you will get variation, and it is up to the GM as to if they are going to pull back on treasure or add more, or whatever.
However, if you want to argue this further, I am game. Simply back up your initial commentary with the rule citation that says you cannot exceed your expected WBL by using Crafting, and I will be happy to revise everything. Until then, I will not change it.
On the flip side, I don't mind if the Fighter crafts stuff too. If you take the feat, I expect you to get proper use out of it.
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My argument is this. The fighter is fine
The fighter is competitive with Barbarian for top dog in damage, but has much better armor and doesn't have to turn it on or off. The fighter is better at giving and taking damage than ranger, but doesn't have the skills or spells.
If someone who actually plays fighters regularly (as I said, it isn't my class of choice) was here they could make a far better fighter than I have, yet my fighter is still competitive at this point, and better in the ways I claimed he would be better (damage, and AC) without me doing much of anything but saying "I'll take the same things as she is having, thanks."
I am a firm believer that players build for the party, and not for themselves. I look at the fighter an think to myself "That is a damn good tank with feat flexibility to fill a good number of party holes."
I haven't seen anything that changes my opinion.
A few questions:
1) What are masterwork spellcraft tools? Spellcraft isn't actually a craft skill so I don't think you can just pick up masterwork crafting tools for it. Artisan's tools are for Craft checks. I didn't see anything for Spellcraft, which is not a Craft check.
Mechanically, it's a masterwork tool that is keyed to the Spellcraft skill. Fluff-wise, it might be a variety of odd baubles used for enchanting magical items, a booklet of runes and magical glyphs, or some other such thing. It's just a MW Tool (Spellcraft), plain and simple.
2) If you are going to be using your extra cash for creating items, you can exceed your WBL according to Paizo's FAQ.
Indeed. It's one of the perks for having the feat. ^-^
WBL is fine for determining starting equipment at higher levels and such, and I try not to let PCs fall below WBL in general. Being above WBL doesn't significantly change the game enough to warrant balance concerns, IMHO.
3) When discussing creating items, I think it would be best to stick to the items already created instead of using the crafting guidelines. Those are for the GM, not the player, to...
I disagree that they're for the GM only. They are rules, and they can function very well. There are some unbalanced things you can do with them, but if I was trying to be cheeky, I would have just built a commoner that boosts UMD and get a scroll of simulacrum and build my own Terrasque.
The adding the effect to another item is actually very clearly spelled out in the item creation rules as "you can do this, this is how", so it's not even in the realm of "well maybe". The quiver is using a class-feature spell with a duration and applying it appropriately. There is no already priced equivalent (such as armor bonuses vs mage armor) to overrule, and thus it should be legal.
I'm following the rules, and I'm following them within reason without going nuts with them ('cause if I wanted to go nuts, again, I'd start with core casting, not the item creation rules). I'm also entirely fine with the Fighter buying or crafting anything my Ranger does, which shows that at the very least whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. :)
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3) When discussing creating items, I think it would be best to stick to the items already created instead of using the crafting guidelines. Those are for the GM, not the player, to...I disagree that they're for the GM only. They are rules, and they can function very well. There are some unbalanced things you can do with them, but if I was trying to be cheeky, I would have just built a commoner that boosts UMD and get a scroll of simulacrum and build my own Terrasque.
I do not believe that I could be less surprised by this statement coming from Ashiel.
I agree with Bob 100%. I shudder to think what "cheeky" is given what apparently isn't...
My argument is this. The fighter is fine
The fighter is competitive with Barbarian for top dog in damage, but has much better armor and doesn't have to turn it on or off. The fighter is better at giving and taking damage than ranger, but doesn't have the skills or spells.
But not that much better, or so it appears. Ranger has a lot more going for it than Fighter does all the way around. At top end, Fighter hits about 3 points more AC than a Ranger assuming +5 mithral full plate vs +5 celestial armor. Not a huge difference. Which leaves, primarily, damage, which I've never contested Fighters on, because a deeply specialized Fighter deals lots of raw damage.
If someone who actually plays fighters regularly (as I said, it isn't my class of choice) was here they could make a far better fighter than I have, yet my fighter is still competitive at this point, and better in the ways I claimed he would be better (damage, and AC) without me doing much of anything but saying "I'll take the same things as she is having, thanks."
The Ranger's not optimized either. >.>
I am a firm believer that players build for the party, and not for themselves. I look at the fighter an think to myself "That is a damn good tank with feat flexibility to fill a good number of party holes."
I too share the same thoughts on the matter. I generally feel that the fighter brings too little to the party's whole, and ultimately ends up being a drain on the party's overall potential, unless the player is extremely experienced at working the system.
3) When discussing creating items, I think it would be best to stick to the items already created instead of using the crafting guidelines. Those are for the GM, not the player, to...I disagree that they're for the GM only. They are rules, and they can function very well. There are some unbalanced things you can do with them, but if I was trying to be cheeky, I would have just built a commoner that boosts UMD and get a scroll of simulacrum and build my own Terrasque.I do not believe that I could be less surprised by this statement coming from Ashiel.
I agree with Bob 100%. I shudder to think what "cheeky" is given what apparently isn't...
A quiver that exists in various D&D novels and Baldur's Gate, that reproduces nomagical arrows, and a hat of disguise are somehow over the top? I shudder to think. Especially since I payed 50% more for the hat of disguise effect, in accordance to the magic item creation rules for adding new effects to existing items.
Ashiel:
1) I think you have under spent by 1 skill point. I have an extra skill point just floating. I think you accidentally put it in Stealth.
2) How did you pick up Improved Initiative at level 6?
3) Your skills are too low. I think you forgot to account for the masterwork armor even though that was the reason you chose it.
4) I would like to see the animal companion you choose as well as the terrain you choose. Hopefully those two "match."
Ciretose: I'm going to put your build into the computer also. I was wondering if there is anything more specific you would like to add.
Ashiel:
1) I think you have under spent by 1 skill point. I have an extra skill point just floating. I think you accidentally put it in Stealth.
2) How did you pick up Improved Initiative at level 6?
3) Your skills are too low. I think you forgot to account for the masterwork armor even though that was the reason you chose it.
4) I would like to see the animal companion you choose as well as the terrain you choose. Hopefully those two "match."
Ciretose: I'm going to put your build into the computer also. I was wondering if there is anything more specific you would like to add.
Thanks for pointing that stuff out. Improved Initiative is a typo. I was going to grab it, and then decided to grab Furious Focus instead, and figured I'd grab it later. I apparently forgot to erase it. Sorry about that.
Yeah, I believe I did forget to account for some of the change in armor, and I wouldn't be surprised if I underspent a bit. I've been typing it all up as I go, with some copy/pasting of the stat-block. Speeds stuff up, but if I made an error in an earlier block, it's likely to show up a bit later. Thanks again.
I'm beginning to think that Hero Lab or whatever that program is would be pretty nice. I'm basically just using the PRD and a plain text editor. XD
As for the animal companion matching, I was thinking of keeping them different, so as to be versatile. A horse is a good mount when you're out and about, and when your horse would be less useful (underground) you got your favored terrain bonuses. I wonder if there are stats for a dire-badger companion in the Bestiary, 'cause that would be a cool underground mount. A giant bat would be good too. :P
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The Ranger's not optimized either. >.>
Then you have wasted all of our time.
You made the statement that you could make a ranger that could do a number of things a fighter couldn't. The burden was on you to do this, since you took the position of "The fighter can't."
Either back up your statement or back away from it. I'm fine with either.
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Ashiel:
1) I think you have under spent by 1 skill point. I have an extra skill point just floating. I think you accidentally put it in Stealth.
2) How did you pick up Improved Initiative at level 6?
3) Your skills are too low. I think you forgot to account for the masterwork armor even though that was the reason you chose it.
4) I would like to see the animal companion you choose as well as the terrain you choose. Hopefully those two "match."
Ciretose: I'm going to put your build into the computer also. I was wondering if there is anything more specific you would like to add.
I trust your judgement Bob, you've been an honest broker in every thread I've participated in with you.
For the sake of this discussion, can we skip all the unique items that aren't in the books? Those items fall into the house rule territory very fast and can be abused quickly. If they work for your games, and I'm sure they do, that's fine. However, they require GM input (it clearly states this) and I don't think that every GM is going to agree on their pricing structure. When crafting, you can craft for half value as normal. So you could pick up an efficient quiver for 900 gold if you can craft if yourself. I think 60 arrows is plenty to carry around. You can always pick up Craft (bows) to make some arrows. I think that a DC of 10 (one arrow should be a DC 10.5, but we round down) is doable even in the field without artisan tools. You can Take 10 on craft checks. So Ashiel's character would need non-masterwork artisan's tools and 2 skill points to make an arrow a day. If you wanted to make more, then 20 arrows should be DC 20 and can still be done in a day (Check of 10 times DC 10 divided by 7 equals 14.5 which still exceeds the number of silver piece value of the arrows).
Ashiel:
1) I think you have under spent by 1 skill point. I have an extra skill point just floating. I think you accidentally put it in Stealth.
2) How did you pick up Improved Initiative at level 6?
3) Your skills are too low. I think you forgot to account for the masterwork armor even though that was the reason you chose it.
4) I would like to see the animal companion you choose as well as the terrain you choose. Hopefully those two "match."
Ciretose: I'm going to put your build into the computer also. I was wondering if there is anything more specific you would like to add.
Thanks for pointing that stuff out. Improved Initiative is a typo. I was going to grab it, and then decided to grab Furious Focus instead, and figured I'd grab it later. I apparently forgot to erase it. Sorry about that.
Yeah, I believe I did forget to account for some of the change in armor, and I wouldn't be surprised if I underspent a bit. I've been typing it all up as I go, with some copy/pasting of the stat-block. Speeds stuff up, but if I made an error in an earlier block, it's likely to show up a bit later. Thanks again.
I'm beginning to think that Hero Lab or whatever that program is would be pretty nice. I'm basically just using the PRD and a plain text editor. XD
As for the animal companion matching, I was thinking of keeping them different, so as to be versatile. A horse is a good mount when you're out and about, and when your horse would be less useful (underground) you got your favored terrain bonuses. I wonder if there are stats for a dire-badger companion in the Bestiary, 'cause that would be a cool underground mount. A giant bat would be good too. :P
The ranger doesn't get the same options as the druid for companions.
Here is your ranger, sans companion and favored terrain. Note that keeping track of how much you save with crafting is getting to be a PITA already (which is one of the reasons I dislike the ruling from Paizo).
Male Half-Orc Ranger 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +4 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Club +4 (1d6+6/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +4 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Glaive +4 (1d10+9/20/x3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 4 melee touch, 3 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Power Attack -1/+2
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Perception +6, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Survival +6, Swim +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Track +1, Wild Empathy -1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Glaive, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy -1 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 2
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +7
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 18 (2d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +5 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Club +5 (1d6+6/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +5 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Glaive +5 (1d10+9/20/x3)
Ranged Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +4 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +4 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 5 melee touch, 4 ranged touch):
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Power Attack -1/+2, Rapid Shot
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +7, Ride -3, Survival +6, Swim +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Track +1, Wild Empathy +0 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Glaive, Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Undead.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +0 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 3
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +8
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 25 (3d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +6 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Club +6 (1d6+6/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +6 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Glaive +7 (1d10+9/20/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +6 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +5 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 6 melee touch, 5 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack -1/+2, Rapid Shot
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +8, Ride -3, Stealth +3, Survival +8, Swim +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Track +1, Wild Empathy +1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Masterwork Glaive, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling; Other Gear Oil of Magic Weapon (5)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Undead.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +1 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 4
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 36 (4d10+8)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +6 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Club +6 (1d6+8/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +6 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Glaive +7 (1d10+12/20/x3)
Ranged Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +6 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +6 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 1, 6 melee touch, 6 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 20
Feats Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Rapid Shot
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb +3, Concentration: Ranger +3, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Handle Animal +3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +9, Ride -3, Stealth +4, Survival +9, Swim +3
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Track +2, Wild Empathy +2 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Chainmail, Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Masterwork Glaive, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Oil of Magic Weapon (5), Potion of Enlarge Person (5)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Undead (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Undead.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Track +2 +2 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +2 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 5
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +10
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+6 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 44 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +7 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Club +7 (1d6+8/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +7 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Glaive +8 (1d10+12/20/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +8 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +7 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 2, 7 melee touch, 7 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 21
Feats Endurance, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Rapid Shot
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +9, Concentration: Ranger +4, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +10, Ride +1, Stealth +9, Survival +10, Swim +7
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Undead (+4 bonus) (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Track +2, Wild Empathy +3 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Masterwork Glaive, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Mithral Breastplate, Shield, Heavy Wooden, Sling; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Oil of Magic Weapon (5), Potion of Enlarge Person (5)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Animals.
Enemies: Undead (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Undead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Track +2 +2 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +3 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 6
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +11
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17. . (+7 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +7
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +8/+3 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Club +8/+3 (1d6+8/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +8/+3 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Glaive +9/+4 (1d10+12/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +9/+4 (1d8+5/20/x3) and
. . Sling +8/+3 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 3, 8 melee touch, 8 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Endurance, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Manyshot, Power Attack -2/+4, Rapid Shot
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +9, Concentration: Ranger +5, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +3, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +11, Ride +1, Spellcraft +3, Stealth +10, Survival +11, Swim +7
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Undead (+4 bonus) (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Track +3, Wild Empathy +4 (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4), +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Shield, Heavy Wooden, Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Masterwork Glaive, Sling; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1, Oil of Magic Weapon (5), Potion of Enlarge Person (5)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Animals.
Enemies: Undead (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Undead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Track +3 +3 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 7
NN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19. . (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 60 (7d10+14)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +7
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 40 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +9/+4 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Club +9/+4 (1d6+8/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet, Spiked +9/+4 (1d4+8/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Glaive +10/+5 (1d10+12/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +10/+5 (1d8+5/20/x3) and
. . Sling +9/+4 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 4, 9 melee touch, 9 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 24
Feats Craft Wondrous Item, Endurance, Furious Focus, Iron Will, Manyshot, Power Attack -2/+4, Rapid Shot
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +9, Concentration: Ranger +6, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +6, Heal +6, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +2, Knowledge (Nature) +2, Perception +12, Ride +1, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +11, Survival +11, Swim +7
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Undead (+4 bonus) (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Track +3, Wild Empathy +5 (Ex), Woodland Stride (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4), +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Shield, Heavy Wooden, Arrows (20), Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Gauntlet, Spiked, Masterwork Glaive, Sling; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Elixir of Hiding, Oil of Magic Weapon (5), Pearl of Power, 1st Level (2), Potion of Enlarge Person (5), Ring of Protection, +1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Enemies: Animals (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Animals.
Enemies: Undead (+4 bonus) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Undead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Track +3 +3 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the atttitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
I use Hero Lab, which is pretty good for many things. It's certainly not perfect but it is pretty good.
One thing I forgot to mention before, I see you took Furious Focus. Are we going outside the Core Rulebook for everything or are we going to disallow archetypes but everything else? It seems odd to allow some stuff but not others.
The Ranger's not optimized either. >.>
Then you have wasted all of our time.
You made the statement that you could make a ranger that could do a number of things a fighter couldn't. The burden was on you to do this, since you took the position of "The fighter can't."
Either back up your statement or back away from it. I'm fine with either.
If I'm going to use your baseline, what is the concept you're going for? Other than being good at dealing damage and avoiding hits, what do you want from this build?
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If I'm going to use your baseline, what is the concept you're going for? Other than being good at dealing damage and avoiding hits, what do you want from this build?
The Ranger's not optimized either. >.>
Then you have wasted all of our time.
You made the statement that you could make a ranger that could do a number of things a fighter couldn't. The burden was on you to do this, since you took the position of "The fighter can't."
Either back up your statement or back away from it. I'm fine with either.
To prove the fighter can outperform the Ranger at damage and with AC, while having feats to spare for the all elusive "flexibility" criticism.
The people who say that can't be done can set the criteria, just as I set out that the Ranger will fall behind as a "Tank".
For the sake of this discussion, can we skip all the unique items that aren't in the books? Those items fall into the house rule territory very fast and can be abused quickly.
1) No they don't.
2) Perhaps, but so can many things.I'm not coming up with entirely new effects. I'm following the rules and adding a simple continual spell effect to a quiver, using one of my own spells, which is measured in the standard way that spells are measured (standard duration), and so forth. It is rules legal. Now if you want to start making certain core mechanics illegal, then you are creating a bias, and not allowing the Ranger the mechanics that he is allowed to use according to the core rules.
The core rules are very clear on this. It notes that certain items do not adhere to the formulas. We can see this throughout the books where they priced items that have no formulas (such as bags of holding), but in cases where formulas are usable, the formula is used (such as with boots of speed or cape of mountebank).
The rules for an item that has a set duration (1 minute/level), spell level (1), caster level (1st), and no overriding effect (as in the case of mage armor being null due to armor bonuses already being priced), the rules are clear.
If they work for your games, and I'm sure they do, that's fine. However, they require GM input (it clearly states this) and I don't think that every GM is going to agree on their pricing structure.
I should care, why? Not every GM allows Furious Focus. Furious Focus isn't even core, and yet nobody bothered to complain about it being used, despite the fact everything is subject to GM discretion. The magic item rules, including the creation rules, are in the Core Rulebook and are not presented as merely suggestions but are actual rules. They are part of the game. Like it or not. Now a GM can veto anything they find over the top, just like most GMs would veto someone making their own pet Terrasque with core magic (not all, but probably most would) if it was a problem for the game.
When crafting, you can craft for half value as normal. So you could pick up an efficient quiver for 900 gold if you can craft if yourself. I think 60 arrows is plenty to carry around.
Firstly, I'll stick with the abundant quiver, thanks. Efficient quiver isn't actually efficient at all for an archer, but is better for someone who relies on throwing javalins and spears, making it less efficient and more stupid as a quiver.
Also, 60 arrows is most definitely not plenty. Before 10th level you will be shooting off 3/round in most cases. You could burn through 60 arrows over the span of a single encounter, easily. An alternative is bag of holding, haversack, or portable hole with a metric ton of arrows inside, but those also have other uses and flavors beyond an abundant quiver.
You can always pick up Craft (bows) to make some arrows. I think that a DC of 10 (one arrow should be a DC 10.5, but we round down) is doable even in the field without artisan tools. You can Take 10 on craft checks. So Ashiel's character would need non-masterwork artisan's tools and 2 skill points to make an arrow a day. If you wanted to make more, then 20 arrows should be DC 20 and can still be done in a day (Check of 10 times DC 10 divided by 7 equals 14.5 which still exceeds the number of silver piece value of the arrows).
An arrow a day? Seriously? You could work for a month and run through the entire lot in 10 rounds (1 minute). Nah, I'll go with the quiver of plenty any day of the week. Paying the cost of about 60,000 arrows for the convenience of being able to say "I have arrows" is pretty reasonable.
So again, I re-iterate, I'm following the rules, and I'm not stepping outside the boundaries of fair play. I'm not pulling mechanical shenanigans like making pet terrasques who obey my every whim and are nigh-unkillable, nor am I stocking up on Candles of Invocation or something, or doing anything outside of reasonable.
This just seems like a stupid thing to pick a fight about.
Then you have wasted all of our time.
You made the statement that you could make a ranger that could do a number of things a fighter couldn't. The burden was on you to do this, since you took the position of "The fighter can't."
Either back up your statement or back away from it. I'm fine with either.
First off, no, I haven't wasted anyone's time. The Ranger keeps up with the Fighter, isn't overly optimized, and brings a lot more to the table than the Fighter does, as-is. A lot more includes skills, spells, battlefield control, problem solving in general, and an extra meat-shield. You have been cheering about the Fighter having a tiny bit more +atk and AC, without providing the statblocks I might add, and then you say stuff like this...
Since my entire stance has been Fighters don't contribute heavily enough in the game anywhere, including combat that extends beyond whacking stuff with a stick, it's still looking pretty good. The one thing I gave to the Fighter as a given was the fact they can get nice static mods in attack and AC, but are severely lacking elsewhere.
Let's look. The Fighter has less skills. Check. The Fighter has less battlefield presence (ranger can drop entangle, spike growth, wind-wall). Check. Fighter has less support (no animal companion/mount). Check. Fighter is worse at crafting. Check. Ranger can fill the Fighter's role as a party martial while also pulling more weight? Check.
Hell, the Ranger is just all around a better guy to have in your party. The fact he comes pre-ready to make use of Happy Sticks is icing on the cake.
To prove the fighter can outperform the Ranger at damage and with AC, while having feats to spare for the all elusive "flexibility" criticism.
The people who say that can't be done can set the criteria, just as I set out that the Ranger will fall behind as a "Tank".
Literacy seems to be a problem in the world. Again, I never said the Ranger would match the Fighter pound for pound in sheer damamage and AC. However, Rangers can certainly tank. In fact, they can Tank better than Fighters because there is more to being a tank than just having a higher AC bonus (which is only about 3 points higher than the Ranger at high levels). Rangers have the ability to absorb energy damage, have better saving throws, and have options for mitigating or removing bad conditions. All of which fall squarely into the category of "effective tank".
See, a ranger can TANK large amounts of energy damage effectively without needing someone to fall back on for healing immediately. He gets evasion, which combined with his solid Reflex saves a Dexterity priorities means he can TANK stuff like Dragon's breath, cone of cold, avoid entangle spells, and so forth. It's harder to Crowd Control a Ranger because they have mobility options, and in-class access to freedom of movement and can even get it in spell-trigger format!
Would I trade a couple of points of AC and a few points of attack and damage for that? Oh hell yes. Every day of the week and twice on Sundays!
To prove the fighter can outperform the Ranger at damage and with AC, while having feats to spare for the all elusive "flexibility" criticism.
The people who say that can't be done can set the criteria, just as I set out that the Ranger will fall behind as a "Tank".
I have a hard time with the term "tank" because as a former soldier, a tank is one thing but to a gamer a tank has a different meaning.
I can easily build a heavy damage, high AC fighter with flexibility. I think that there isn't much of an argument on the first two criteria. I think that "flexibility" is a moving target. What one person sees as flexible another will say isn't flexible enough and yet a third will say is too flexible.
I'll see what I can do though.
I use Hero Lab, which is pretty good for many things. It's certainly not perfect but it is pretty good.
One thing I forgot to mention before, I see you took Furious Focus. Are we going outside the Core Rulebook for everything or are we going to disallow archetypes but everything else? It seems odd to allow some stuff but not others.
Firstly, why is my attack mods incorrectly calculated in your posts? At 1st level it's got +4 for my to-hit with melee weapons, when my Str + BAB is +5. In the 7th level, it had my to-hits being +9, when it should be more like +12 with my main weapons. Why is this?
Secondly, I do not mind if anyone goes outside of core. Ciretose is free to use archtypes as he pleases, but since you can't use all archtypes or swap them out, it basically becomes "this breed of fighter versus generic ranger". Archtypes are like more classes. Feats, spells, and so forth; everyone can use those, but archtypes are all or nothing. You can't be an Archaelogist Fighter, for example (archaelogist being a bard archtype IIRC).
I mean, I didn't call shenanigans on Ciretose when he opted to use Furious Focus. :P In fact, I had forgotten about the feat until he mentioned it, because I myself do generally just use core material (I GM more than I play, and it's usually easier to stick to core material when building NPCs).
So again, I re-iterate, I'm following the rules, and I'm not stepping outside the boundaries of fair play. I'm not pulling mechanical shenanigans like making pet terrasques who obey my every whim and are nigh-unkillable, nor am I stocking up on Candles of Invocation or something, or doing anything outside of reasonable.
This just seems like a stupid thing to pick a fight about.
It matter though because it requires more GM adjudication than Furious Focus. Do you remember everyone jumping on me for using archetypes? What was the consensus from you and many others? I think that disallowing archetypes, which really don't require any effort on the GM's part, but allowing unique magic items which do require a lot of effort on the GM's part, is unreasonable.
I didn't claim that you are currently doing anything unreasonable with your unique items. I would allow them in my games. However, that doesn't make them reasonable for these types of discussions. Anything that requires a lot of hand holding from the GM should probably be off limits.
Because of this line alone, I think we should stick to already conceived items:
"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth."
Note he hasn't added Crafting into his build yet.
As soon as he does, probably by buying one of those bracelets from the 'Commoner' build a few pages back, what's going to happen is he can start crafting all sorts of Wondrous Items...or his armor class is going to start improving seriously quickly.
Likely both. In terms of benefits, those are seriously good feats.
So crafting will be a non-issue. He'll just focus on different items then you, and getting them much earlier then he would otherwise.
And he's actually BETTER at crafting items then you are, because he doesn't have a caster level penalty. The fact he can't make as many different items as you (also overblown, with your restricted spell list) is irrelevant, as long as he can continuously be making items that he wants and needs...which is pretty much every core item generally wanted in a standard melee build.
I'd advocate him spending for the Bracelet that grants Master Craftsman and Create Wondrous Item, buy a +2 Int headband, take the Craft Arms and Armor feat, and then start seriously upgrading ALL his gear at 2:1, instead of just wondrous items.
If he needs Weaponsmith ranks, he can upgrade his Headband to +4 soon enough, and stay 1000 gp/day busy for perpetuity.
==Aelryinth
Firstly, why is my attack mods incorrectly calculated in your posts? At 1st level it's got +4 for my to-hit with melee weapons, when my Str + BAB is +5. In the 7th level, it had my to-hits being +9, when it should be more like +12 with my main weapons. Why is this?
Probably because some idiot left Power Attack turned on...sorry. It's a habit I have when I build my fighters because I plan on using it as often as possible.
Secondly, I do not mind if anyone goes outside of core. Ciretose is free to use archtypes as he pleases, but since you can't use all archtypes or swap them out, it basically becomes "this breed of fighter versus generic ranger". Archtypes are like more classes. Feats, spells, and so forth; everyone can use those, but archtypes are all or nothing. You can't be an Archaelogist Fighter, for example (archaelogist being a bard archtype IIRC).
The generic version of a class can simply be viewed as an archetype. The archetypes are supposed to make sure that the alternate versions are as strong as the original. To me it's not really much different than class that have options that can't be changed: paladin's divine bond, ranger's hunter's bond, druid's nature bond, specialized wizards, sorcerer bloodlines, etc.
I mean, I didn't call shenanigans on Ciretose when he opted to use Furious Focus. :P In fact, I had forgotten about the feat until he mentioned it, because I myself do generally just use core material (I GM more than I play, and it's usually easier to stick to core material when building NPCs).
I don't personally care if we open the gates to use all the material available at the PRD. It's all there for everyone to use at no charge. The only thing I would want us to do is stick to core races, which we have done. I wasn't trying to call shenanigans. I was trying to make sure that I am using the same criteria you are when I work on a comparison build. We both need to use the same available options otherwise the comparisons won't be fair.
To prove the fighter can outperform the Ranger at damage and with AC, while having feats to spare for the all elusive "flexibility" criticism.
The people who say that can't be done can set the criteria, just as I set out that the Ranger will fall behind as a "Tank".
I have a hard time with the term "tank" because as a former soldier, a tank is one thing but to a gamer a tank has a different meaning.
I can easily build a heavy damage, high AC fighter with flexibility. I think that there isn't much of an argument on the first two criteria. I think that "flexibility" is a moving target. What one person sees as flexible another will say isn't flexible enough and yet a third will say is too flexible.
I'll see what I can do though.
The way I see "tank" is actually based on military tanks. You have something that is fairly difficult to kill (tanks are fortified) and are good at killing (tanks have guns on 'em! :P). I feel like the Fighter fails at the first. The Fighter is more like some sort of heavy duty turret with a forward shield. They're tankish from one direction (vs attacks targeting their full-AC) but are wide open for other types of attacks (touch attacks, energy attacks, crowd control attacks, mental attacks, and so forth).
Adding to the turret scheme, most Fighters aren't very mobile either. They have a big gun, but lack mobility, which hinders the use of that gun. To acquire mobility, you need either a mount or an archtype. Unfortunately, simply buying a mount means you end up with a low-HP critter that can get 1-shot when something drops a fireball. Rangers get a critter who levels with them, gets evasion, and can even get new treads if the first ones get blown up (tanks + insurance policies with Adventure-State, 'cause knowbody protects you like Adventure-State).
But that's more or less my point. Fighters are, in my opinion, giving up waaaaaaaaay too much for what amounts to a marginally better AC and a few more points of damage. This is doubly so because HP increases faster than damage increases. Every hit die adds at least 3.5 HP. Then add Con modifiers. As level rises, Con modifiers get bigger and bigger.
At 1st level the Fighter can move up and strike the hobgoblin for 8 minimum damage and drop the hobgoblin. At 12th level, the Fighter can move up and strike the hobgoblin for 39 maximum damage, and deal about half the hobgoblin's base HP (before factoring Con).
It matter though because it requires more GM adjudication than Furious Focus. Do you remember everyone jumping on me for using archetypes? What was the consensus from you and many others? I think that disallowing archetypes, which really don't require any effort on the GM's part, but allowing unique magic items which do require a lot of effort on the GM's part, is unreasonable.
Not quite. I said that it wasn't valid to use different archtypes when speaking generalistically for Fighters. It would be as fallacious as me suggesting that all Rangers can get hypogriff mounts as class features, when really only sable company marine rangers get hypogriff mounts. If I was trying to use the hypogriff mount to argue that rangers in general have easy access to flight, it would be wrong.
Very different. :o
That's why I don't really mind archtypes in this comparison, because you can't be all archtypes at once, and that's basically my point. Build a 2 handed fighter, and you'll be better at one thing but worse at others. It doesn't fix the problems with being generally inferior, because you become a bit better in one area by sacrificing what little you already had.
If you could be a 2 handed, mobile, tactician, archer fighter, then y'know...you'd be pretty badass, and y'know, I'd probably consider them to be pretty amazing at what they do. But you can't do that. :P
I didn't claim that you are currently doing anything unreasonable with your unique items. I would allow them in my games. However, that doesn't make them reasonable for these types of discussions. Anything that requires a lot of hand holding from the GM should probably be off limits.
Because of this line alone, I think we should stick to already conceived items:
"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth."
Again, addressed. Lots of items in the core rulebook do not adhere to those formulas. However, those items are priced based on their value. It is difficult to gauge the mechanical differences between a bag of holding and a +2 amulet of wisdom, but they're about the same price. When the formulas do not apply, you have to make an ad-hoc ruling.
There was nothing unusual requiring GM adjudication in this case. It was a simple matter of using the rules as presented, and popping out the correct value. Just as with other magic items that are in the book.
Firstly, why is my attack mods incorrectly calculated in your posts? At 1st level it's got +4 for my to-hit with melee weapons, when my Str + BAB is +5. In the 7th level, it had my to-hits being +9, when it should be more like +12 with my main weapons. Why is this?Probably because some idiot left Power Attack turned on...sorry. It's a habit I have when I build my fighters because I plan on using it as often as possible.
Oh, that would explain it. :)
Power Attack is a good feat. I tend to be a bit more selective when using it, since it can actually reduce your overall damage if you're not careful with it (a miss is no damage at all, after all. :P).Thanks. :)
Secondly, I do not mind if anyone goes outside of core. Ciretose is free to use archtypes as he pleases, but since you can't use all archtypes or swap them out, it basically becomes "this breed of fighter versus generic ranger". Archtypes are like more classes. Feats, spells, and so forth; everyone can use those, but archtypes are all or nothing. You can't be an Archaelogist Fighter, for example (archaelogist being a bard archtype IIRC).The generic version of a class can simply be viewed as an archetype. The archetypes are supposed to make sure that the alternate versions are as strong as the original. To me it's not really much different than class that have options that can't be changed: paladin's divine bond, ranger's hunter's bond, druid's nature bond, specialized wizards, sorcerer bloodlines, etc.
That's fine. I was arguing previously that archtypes aren't valid for representing the class as a whole. If someone said "sorcerers have X problems" and someone said 1/20 bloodline version of sorcerer lacks that problem, sorcerers still have that problem, just that sorcerer variation doesn't. It's an exception to the rule, so to speak. :)
I mean, I didn't call shenanigans on Ciretose when he opted to use Furious Focus. :P In fact, I had forgotten about the feat until he mentioned it, because I myself do generally just use core material (I GM more than I play, and it's usually easier to stick to core material when building NPCs).I don't personally care if we open the gates to use all the material available at the PRD. It's all there for everyone to use at no charge. The only thing I would want us to do is stick to core races, which we have done. I wasn't trying to call shenanigans. I was trying to make sure that I am using the same criteria you are when I work on a comparison build. We both need to use the same available options otherwise the comparisons won't be...
Again, I'm totally fine with anything in the PRD, and I don't mind if the rules for crafting magic items are followed, as long as the effect is ascertainable based on the chart, as not to need GM-gauging.
So if Ciretose wants to grab a quiver, or any other spell effect that has a duration measured in rounds/level, minutes/level, 10min/level, hour/level, and so forth, go for it. In fact, I highly recommend that he have the following items by 20th level.
I'm saying this because the above actually gives the Fighter a fighting chance in a game. This goes back to my other statement much earlier in this post that said that Fighters can overcome some of their class problems with custom magic items, but that they would have a difficult time without them.
For example, by 20th level, it is incredibly easy to be enervate-bombed, energy-nuked, Crowd Controlled into uselessness, level drained, struggling to remain mobile and contribute, spend more and more time hacking through huge amounts of hit points and damage reductions, and so on and so forth. However, if he can buy gear with spell-effects, I believe he could hold his weight in the sense that he wouldn't necessarily be a drain on party resources to keep him relevant.
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My argument is this. The fighter is fine
The fighter is competitive with Barbarian for top dog in damage, but has much better armor and doesn't have to turn it on or off. The fighter is better at giving and taking damage than ranger, but doesn't have the skills or spells.
But not that much better, or so it appears. Ranger has a lot more going for it than Fighter does all the way around. At top end, Fighter hits about 3 points more AC than a Ranger assuming +5 mithral full plate vs +5 celestial armor. Not a huge difference. Which leaves, primarily, damage, which I've never contested Fighters on, because a deeply specialized Fighter deals lots of raw damage.
Have you taken into account a + X Tower Shield? Let's you have a +4 Tower Shield, that's an automatic +8 and then the Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus feats which brings that up to a +10. Fighter's can actually take the -2 to hit and still be fine. As long as the AC's are able to be hit with no problem then it doesn't matter how high your to hit is.
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Here is a little something I threw together real quick. Now if I made any mistakes then please correct me.
10th level Human Fighter (15 point buy to start) (Starting scores: 16, 13, 12, 12, 12, 7)
Str:22
Dex:15
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:12
Cha:7
HP: 10d10 + 20
AC: 33 (+11 Armor, +7 Shield, + 2 Shield Focus & Greater Shield Focus, +2 Dex, +1 Dodge)
37 (Same as above except using Tower Shield for cover)
40 (Same as above except taking a -3 to my to hit to gain a +3 to AC from Combat Exp)
You guys can figure out the Touch and Flat footed AC on your own.
Spd: 40 ft
Fort: +9
Ref: +5
Will: +6 (+9 vs Fear)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization(Longsword), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Vital Strike, Combat Expertise, Iron Will, Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Fighter Abilities: Bonus Feats, Bravery 3, Armor Training 1 & 2, Weapon Training 1 & 2,
Skills: Craft(Martial Melee) (9 + 3 + 2 + 2) = +16
Perception: (9 + 1) = +10
Climb: (8 + 6 + 3) = +17
Survival: (9 + 3 + 1) = +13
Dungeoneering: (8 + 3 + 2) = +13
Profession: (Soldier): (8 + 1 + 3) = +12
Attack: +3 longsword: +20/+15 1d8 + 11 19-20 x2 (+22/+17 without Tower Shield)
(Vital Strike): +20 2d8 + 11 19-20x2
(Combat Expertise): +17/ +12
Gear: +3 Full Plate, +3 Tower Shield, +3 longsword (crafted), Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Headband of Int +2, Boots of Striding and Springing,
Now the average AC for a CR 10 is about 22 (Bebilith) and even when using Combat Expertise I still need to roll a 5 or better.
This is a high AC hit and move kind of fighter that relies on Spring Attack.
This was done using just the core rulebook.
Have you taken into account a + X Tower Shield? Let's you have a +4 Tower Shield, that's an automatic +8 and then the Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus feats which brings that up to a +10. Fighter's can actually take the -2 to hit and still be fine. As long as the AC's are able to be hit with no problem then it doesn't matter how high your to hit is.But not that much better, or so it appears. Ranger has a lot more going for it than Fighter does all the way around. At top end, Fighter hits about 3 points more AC than a Ranger assuming +5 mithral full plate vs +5 celestial armor. Not a huge difference. Which leaves, primarily, damage, which I've never contested Fighters on, because a deeply specialized Fighter deals lots of raw damage.My argument is this. The fighter is fine
The fighter is competitive with Barbarian for top dog in damage, but has much better armor and doesn't have to turn it on or off. The fighter is better at giving and taking damage than ranger, but doesn't have the skills or spells.
Not quite. Tower shields have a maximum dexterity bonus of +2. They're the only shield to inflict a maximum Dexterity limit like armor. Unlike armor, Armor Training does diddly to increase the maximum dexterity, and cannot reduce the -10 check penalty, and the shield can't be made of mithral as it is described as a massive wooden shield.
In fact, you will probably have a LOWER AC past the lower levels by using a tower shield. One of the reasons I really don't like tower shields very much. Even with a 14 starting Dex, the Ranger I was showing will hit +9 Dex, which is too much for Celestial Armor or Mithral Full Plate w/ Armor Training IV. The Fighter gets the same benefit as the Ranger w/ Celestial Armor, except the Fighter gets +3 armor. The Fighter would destroy his AC by wielding a tower shield.
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Shallowsoul, i still see a few weaknesses in your fighter. a +6 will save isn't really viable at 10th level. your damage per swing isn't very effective either. your armor class may be high, but that's the only notable defense i see.
the big problem with turtling builds is that not only do they slow down combat to the point that they give a foe more chances to crack thier shell. their low offense and high defense leaves them heavily ignored.
spring attack and vital strike don't stack
and hit and run just makes you a lower priority target and means that you aren't protecting the squishies. Turtling is the selfish defense.
the Team player defense is taking a polearm with reach (with a spiked gauntlet), and using combat reflexes with a nasty attack of oppurtunity to draw enemy attention.
Edit; a 1st level witches slumber hex has a reliable chance of taking out that fighter.
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AC: 33 (+11 Armor, +7 Shield, + 2 Shield Focus & Greater Shield Focus, +2 Dex, +1 Dodge)
37 (Same as above except using Tower Shield for cover)
40 (Same as above except taking a -3 to my to hit to gain a +3 to AC from Combat Exp)
That's a no-go dude. You can't use Combat Expertise and gain cover from a Tower Shield in the same round. You either get AC 36 and attacks, or AC 37 without attacks.
EDIT: In fact, once your BAB gets higher, your Tower Shield provides no benefit at all, as you will be able to get +4 or more to your AC with Combat Expertise. Up to +8 even if you're fighting defensively; at which point your tower shield is only hindering your Dexterity.
EDIT 2: Actually, that's the case even early on. Without a tower shield, you can get full Dex to AC, and you can fight defensively while using Combat Expertise. Doing so will net you a +3 AC immediately and a +4 AC at 4th level, +5 at 8th, +6 at 12th, +7 at 16th, and +8 at 20th.
Attacking at a -10 for +8 AC is better than not attacking at all for +4 AC; especially since it all stacks with your +8 Dexterity by 20th.
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Shallowsoul, i still see a few weaknesses in your fighter. a +6 will save isn't really viable at 10th level. your damage per swing isn't very effective either. your armor class may be high, but that's the only notable defense i see.
the big problem with turtling builds is that not only do they slow down combat to the point that they give a foe more chances to crack thier shell. their low offense and high defense leaves them heavily ignored.
spring attack and vital strike don't stack
and hit and run just makes you a lower priority target and means that you aren't protecting the squishies. Turtling is the selfish defense.
the Team player defense is taking a polearm with reach (with a spiked gauntlet), and using combat reflexes with a nasty attack of oppurtunity to draw enemy attention.
Pretty much everything said here is true.
In fact, the build's touch AC is terrible, and he lacks meaningful defenses. He can be destroyed by a CR 1-3 encounter. A 1st level druid can crowd control him with an entangle spell. A group of kobolds could alchemist bomb him into oblivion.
Let's see. Average HP for 10d10+20 is 80. If 12 CR 1/4 kobolds bomb him with alchemist fire, that's an average of 42 damage on round 1, and another 42 damage on round 2. Dead Fighter.
EDIT: Heck, a +6 Will save at 10th level is lower than my 7th level example ranger's will save. You could get destroyed by a 5th level cleric's hold person spell. Coup de grace!
Man, the ways to absolutely devastate that Fighter are many. I wouldn't want that Fighter anywhere near my party; for fear he would just attract every enemy within three miles and then promptly die in a CR 1-3 encounter. :S
EDIT 2: You want to use Feats to pump your AC higher than the Ranger, definitely go with the shield focus line, but stay far away from tower shields. With shield focus and greater shield focus, plus mithral full plate, you could hit 25% more evasion than a Ranger can. 15% more evasion from your armor, and 10% more from your Shield Focus.
If you use a tower shield, you must suddenly make up 6 points worth of lost Dexterity modifier, which actually brings you down to a net loss of 5% over the Ranger, even with 2 feats invested. By all means, do not, ever, ever, eeeeeveeeeerrr do this. XD