Again, Ashiel, you're overstating the importance of spellcaster levels for crafting.
The only NECCESSARY concept is that you can plow 500 gp a day into a magic item. That's it. You can then swap the item with someone else plowing 500 gp into a different item.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT ALL for yourself.
A Fighter with Craft Armor can make himself his armor (100k of value) shield (100k of value), and if he takes CWI, Bracers (Archery?), Helm (Headband of Int?), Gauntlets (Dex? Else?), Girdles (Str/Con), Gorgets (Neck slot, Nat armor?), armored boots (sollerets, pick the boots). The ability to make Armor includes accessories, you know!
If he goes weapons, the sheer value of weapons means its applicable through his entire career. The non-crafter gets a 200k weapon, he gets TWO 200k weapons...400 gp, over a year of devoted labor. Try finding the time to make MORE stuff then that over a standard AP...you can't. And if you're outside an AP, that just means you're making it for the rest of the party.
That's a TON of stuff a fighter can make.
And if he's not making it for himself, he can be making the armor for the theif and cleric or other melees...who in turn can be using their own crafting feats to make other things.
The key element in crafting is not being able to make everything...it's the party being able to make everything, and you being able to contribute effectively by doing the same thing.
If you can't make it, you can swap with someone who can. If the Theif is making the weapons and you're making the armor, you can both be happy.
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I did miss DR as a defense, but for the fighters it's a capstone ability, and restricted to the last 2 levels. I am NOT including any form of archetype. If virtually all fighters can't take it, it's not relevant to the discussion. So it'd basically be barbarian only, and maybe paladin while smiting.
Most of the paladin and ranger spells are combat based, with some out of combat applications. But true utility/social spells are not on their list. Virtually all the spells Ashiel listed above have primary applications for combat, with a couple thematic exceptions. Even Resist Energy is more likely to see use for resisting magical energy attacks then any sort of environmental stuff.
==Aelryinth
Again, Ashiel, you're overstating the importance of spellcaster levels for crafting.
And again you're understating it.
A Fighter is getting a neutered version of either feat that you're taking, even after wasting a feat to qualify. Even if you take Craft (Armor), which nets you the absolute most benefit out of any of your options, which you will use to create custom armor-versions of worn objects. However, even there, that's where it stops.
A ranger can take Craft Wondrous Item and crank out: Elixers, bracers, gloves, gauntlets, amulets, earrings, circlets, robes, boots, slippers, helmets, crowns, cloaks, mantles, shirts, elixerts, tokens, portable holes, bags of holding, submarines (that apparatus thingy), bags of tricks, pearls of power, salves, musical instruments, elemental gems, horsehoes of speed/zypher, lens of detection, gem of true seeing, and a laundry list of other things.
They're useful for making their own gear, stuff for the party (even if those party members don't wear armor), and a lot of extra stuff that is cheap and easy to make and just rocks so much socks (elemental gems, feather tokens, junk like that is inexpensive enough if you craft it yourself to make them worthwhile).
If they take Craft Magic Arms & Armor, then they can make their armor, their weapons, their shields, their bows, their arrows, and so forth. Not just a subgroup of those.
In short, not only does the ranger sacrifice far, far less to craft, but he does it far, far better. Once you've crafted your armor, you're effectively done with your feat. The ranger is just getting started. He's more useful, and can make better use of his downtime.
For example, the party is going to be spending 3 days in downtime? Ok, Ranger crafts 3 tree tokens. Party spending 1 day of downtime? How about a pearl of power to give him another spell every day? The party is keeping on the move and isn't really doing much downtime? He's pooping out elixers and silversheen and stuff like that by making use of the traveling crafter options. When he gets bored with that stuff, he makes everyone in the party some ioun stones. Not exotic enough? How about a crystal ball? Too cliche? Flying Carpet! Still no good? Well then he poops out a figurine that turns into a panther to accompany him on his dual-scimitar wielding adventures.
The Fighter, at best, will make some of his gear. Not even all of it. Just some of it. The Ranger, can make his gear, the party's gear, and just crank out lots of stuff that's really awesome in different situations that the Fighter couldn't craft if you paid him to.
The Fighter is to item creation what Commoner is to adventuring.
EDIT: Also, the very fact you seem to insist that the spells that they have which can easily be out of combat have combat uses and thus must be categorized as combat spells only demonstrates their versatility and options, since they can apparently use combat spells outside of combat so easily.
Barbarian: "Guys, we need to cross this river of lava."
Ranger: "Don't worry, I have my combat spells." *casts resist energy on everyone using his 1st level slot plus some pearls of power*
*everyone swims or walks across the lava*
So, pick a generalist skill instead of a specific skill? Why would you want to bother making the base item anyway? That is the only reason you would need to take the specific craft skill. Take Profession (Magic Item Engineer) and you can create everything from both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
Craft (whatever I want)?
So, pick a generalist skill instead of a specific skill? Why would you want to bother making the base item anyway? That is the only reason you would need to take the specific craft skill. Take Profession (Magic Item Engineer) and you can create everything from both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
Doesn't work that way. Item types require specific craft skills. In fact, you literally cannot use a Profession skill with Craft Magic Arms & Armor.
EDIT: But I agree with generalist skill. Something like...Spellcraft! Yes, that will do it. Spellcraft is used for everything, and also has uses outside of crafting magical items. Too bad we can't use it with Master Craftsman...
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Wouldn't work, Craft calls out that it has to be a specific group of items. Profession is more general.So, pick a generalist skill instead of a specific skill? Why would you want to bother making the base item anyway? That is the only reason you would need to take the specific craft skill. Take Profession (Magic Item Engineer) and you can create everything from both Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.Craft (whatever I want)?
Whatever; screw this game- I'm gonna' go roll my Craft (sammich) skill...
Magic armor
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Magic weapons
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
Wonderous Items
Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Wondrous Item.
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
Applicable skills would be determined by the GM for the Item but i doubt many GMs are gonna allow houseruled Magical engineer profession or if they did would probably allow it only after you could make items since its kinda hard to have been making money doing it before you could do it.
Again, Ashiel, you're overstating the benefit of what the ranger can do (and he can't make all that stuff 'freely', he doesn't have the appropriate spells to do almost any of it).
While the ranger is cranking out a bunch of misc stuff, the fighter is upgrading everyone's armor...something that must also be done. And armor is going to get used more then a feather token.
As a matter of fact, he can make a magic item EVERY DAY...a +1 piece of armor takes exactly one day. Or he can make partial advances towards making a piece of armor towards the next level while the Ranger is trying to apply his spell selection towards making stuff. Note that ANYTHING that falls into the armor categories the Fighter can make without spells, right? The ranger either has the spells or takes the Spellcraft hit...likely taking the hit twice, since his caster level is -3 to his level.
Your example is thus COMPLETELY superfluous in a party situation. The fighter will handle all the armor, the ranger will handle the CWI, both are maximizing use of downtime, because everyone needs the armor, and will always need the armor. As long as he is crafting what the party needs, it doesn't matter what else is 'possible' to craft, only that he crafts what is needed and usable. If someone is 'better' because they can craft CWI, then it's a good thing they don't have to waste time crafting armor, isn't it?
And you really gotta get off the Resist Energy (10 pts) on lava. Protection from Energy or Energy Immunity is the only way you're going to survive 20d6 dmg/round from lava, and he doesn't have that many spells to spare! :)
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Again, an archetype that gets DR means nothing, and the core fighter gets it after all but the most high-powered campaigns are done with. If Fighters got a DR bonus that scaled with weapon training, that would be something different.
Fighters using General Feats to up their defenses (i.e. the will saves) is not a Fighter class ability, it's an anyone ability...the same way Crafting magic items is. So Fighters can't claim it.
Fighters using combat feats to debuff an enemy is not the same as buffing others, and hence not Leadership.
All Barbarians get Rage powers, and all have access to Superstitious. it doesn't take an archetype to get them.
==Aelryinth
Nobody is arguing you have to actually create the original item. But the item has to be something that falls into your craft skill in order to imbue it with magic.
A bag of holding likely does not fall into armor smithing, hard as you might argue. You can argue for boots, because armored boots are a mainstay of warriors, but cloaks? Not likely...at least, not a 'real' cloak. It would have to be a sheet of armor links or something...still a possibility, but you'd be stretching for it, and those kind of items would look pretty weird.
the key is that you have to be able to craft something that is going to be useful and viable for a long time. It doesn't matter if it's only one thing...it matters that someone else doesn't have to do it, so THEY can take CWI, and the two of you can swap...but note that with Armor Crafting, you can technically take ALL of the stat boosting items (gaunts and girdles fall easily under armor classing, and a helm can replace a headband for the mental buffs.), all of the necklaces, all of the bracers, all of the boots, and all of the gauntlets and belts. That's a massive amount of what the party will need...all the basics, as a matter of fact.
So he can't make a Feather Token. So what? he can make everything every character needs...what they 'want extra', someone else can handle.
==Aelryinth
I'd say you're missing one critical criterion for being a good anything: Being able to be good at it from level 1. Lots of "optimized" builds seem to fail pretty miserably at that.
I've seen this as a huge problem with many builds of all classes. That's why I posted the tactician build I did from levels 1 to 20. It's back a few pages now.
A fighter that really wants to help out with the crafting duties can invest in a few feats. Instead of focusing on being the primary crafter for the group though, he is better off taking Cooperative Crafting. This will allow him to automatically grant a +2 bonus on the crafting check and allow the item to be crafted in half the time. So if the DC is increased by 5, and this feat is used, then essentially they can craft 2,000 gold worth of items in 4 hours. That's 4,000 gold pieces of items per day.
Cooperative Crafting doesn't set a limit to how many people can assist. By a strict reading, it is possible that a party of 4 can craft 16,000 gold worth of gear a day. They would all have to invest in this, and I think it's reasonable because the soonest the non-casters can qualify would be level 9. It's a 3 feat investment for each of them as well. That's hefty for many builds.
A fighter that really wants to help out with the crafting duties can invest in a few feats. Instead of focusing on being the primary crafter for the group though, he is better off taking Cooperative Crafting. This will allow him to automatically grant a +2 bonus on the crafting check and allow the item to be crafted in half the time. So if the DC is increased by 5, and this feat is used, then essentially they can craft 2,000 gold worth of items in 4 hours. That's 4,000 gold pieces of items per day.
Cooperative Crafting doesn't set a limit to how many people can assist. By a strict reading, it is possible that a party of 4 can craft 16,000 gold worth of gear a day. They would all have to invest in this, and I think it's reasonable because the soonest the non-casters can qualify would be level 9. It's a 3 feat investment for each of them as well. That's hefty for many builds.
I remember discussions like this once since the days of AD&D 2E. And they likely will persist forever, until either everyone else is nerfed and stripped of interesting things to do until they are just like fighters, or until it is finally accepted that "Fighter" is a E6 concept at best (because just stabbing people with a sword is what a low-level character does, you can try pretending to make him high-level by giving him a pile of numbers, but he will inevitably continue to fail as long as there are classes which can do level-appropriate damage AND other relevant stuff), or an inherently flawed concept at worst (because how you can "fighting" be your schtick in the game where everyone is supposed to be competent in a fight - playing at low levels, when other classes can't do as much, just helps to obfuscate the problem).
I personally am inclined towards making "Fighter" class 5-6 levels long, and that's primarily to give newbies something simple and generic at the start. After that, mandatory prestige classing time.
Again, Ashiel, you're overstating the benefit of what the ranger can do (and he can't make all that stuff 'freely', he doesn't have the appropriate spells to do almost any of it).
He has spellcraft as a class skill and can do so without the spell by just taking the +5 DC. Anything he does have spells for, he can do without increasing the DC. The fact Spellcraft is also a class skill, and has uses outside of Crafting, is icing on the cake.
While the ranger is cranking out a bunch of misc stuff, the fighter is upgrading everyone's armor...something that must also be done. And armor is going to get used more then a feather token.
Depends on your definition of used. The ranger cranks out a feather token for 200 gp, and now has an option for A) bridges, B) instant cover, C) something to climb up, D) something to block movement, and so forth. The Fighter spends 500 gp to make a +1 armor. Whoopti-do.
As a matter of fact, he can make a magic item EVERY DAY...a +1 piece of armor takes exactly one day.
Which is effectively useless. What's the point of crafting a +1 armor everyday? Are you trying to stop adventuring and sell them off at more than less than the cost to create them (assuming you didn't craft the armor you're enchanting yourself, you will actually lose money making the item to sell it to NPCs)?
Is there a reason that while the ranger is cranking out useful items, your flushing money down the toilet to add yet another suit of +1 armor to the wagon of +1 magic armors you're already carrying?
Or he can make partial advances towards making a piece of armor towards the next level while the Ranger is trying to apply his spell selection towards making stuff.
The fighter suffers the same +5 DC for not meeting spell requisites you know. And the Ranger can work on more useful things at time goes on as well. When the Ranger is happy with his stock of elixers that grant +10 to the party's favorite skills for 1 hour, and has a nice purse of feather tokens, and maybe a bit of dust of appearance or disappearance, or that dust of choking or whatever it is that's kinda broken, he can begin working on stuff making everyone in the party immune to sneak attack by making +x cloaks of resistance or lesser displacement. More time is good for either individual. Less time is still alright for the Ranger, because it means he can produce some legitimately useful items.
Have you ever considered how HUGE a +10 bonus for 1 hour is? That's 10 levels worth of skill ranks. Hand somebody a cloak of displacement (minor) and an elixer of hiding and see how easy it is to find that guy. What guy? Exactly.
Note that ANYTHING that falls into the armor categories the Fighter can make without spells, right? The ranger either has the spells or takes the Spellcraft hit...likely taking the hit twice, since his caster level is -3 to his level.
Which applies for the Ranger too. The Ranger might be 3 CLs behind, but you also have to keep pumping skill ranks into your Craft skill to get it to work. So I keep my skill points, still get to craft more, and may need to deal with a DC 5 higher, but I can also make magic items for that, on the cheap, so I don't care. Since we're clear that the Fighter can make a lot of custom items, then it's cool that I make a wondrous item that grants a +5 Spellcraft (2500 gp) for 1,250 gp, or a +10 Spellcraft for 5,000 gp. I don't think it will be an issue.
Your example is thus COMPLETELY superfluous in a party situation. The fighter will handle all the armor, the ranger will handle the CWI, both are maximizing use of downtime, because everyone needs the armor, and will always need the armor. As long as he is crafting what the party needs, it doesn't matter what else is 'possible' to craft, only that he crafts what is needed and usable. If someone is 'better' because they can craft CWI, then it's a good thing they don't have to waste time crafting armor, isn't it?
You have pretty much shown my point. In this case you must be crafting armor. If you're not crafting armor, then you're not doing anything. So what if everyone doesn't need armor? What if they need weapons, or bows, or elixers, or anything else? Ya suck at making magic items.
What happens of the Ranger decided to grab Craft Magic Arms & Armor? Oh yeah, he could make the armors, the weapons, and the bows. The Fighter can't even properly gear himself out, let alone actually gear up his party. "Sorry wizard, I can't really do anything for you. Maybe you should take the Armored Arcana feat a few times and then I could be of use to you." - "Sorry bard, I know you're an archer, but how about another +2 chain shirt? Oh, you have one already? Hm, I can make it in blue, does that help?"
And you really gotta get off the Resist Energy (10 pts) on lava. Protection from Energy or Energy Immunity is the only way you're going to survive 20d6 dmg/round from lava, and he doesn't have that many spells to spare! :)
Pfft. Like hell he doesn't. It's a 1st level spell. Pearls are cheap. For less than the price of those useless +1 suits of armor you're bragging about making at 7th level, he can prepare resist energy once and cast it all day long. Let's see...if I was in a 4 person party, and I wanted to be able to reliably cast resist energy on each of us at least 1/day, I could take 1500-3000 gp (depending on if I craft them myself or not) and them I'm covered. That's before counting any bonus spells or anything. Or scrolls. Or wands. Or anything else that I might have.
At 7th level, we're looking at at least 2 1st level spells per day (1 + 1 bonus spell for a 12+ Wis). If I prepare resist energy and delay poison, and I got 3 pearls? Well I can cast 5 spells today, in some combination of resist energy and delay poison. Toss in a wand of cure light wounds and I'm just a barrel of fun. For about 2,250 gp worth of investment, or about the cost of a ring of protection +1.
By 14th level, resist energy is blocking 30 damage a round. Anything except total submersion in lava is blocked by that (stick your leg in it, and you're fine, fall in a lake of it, and you're still going to be taking an average of 40 damage instead of 70, and it all but prevents the continuous damage when you climb out). Lava being the most extreme example.
Nobody is arguing you have to actually create the original item. But the item has to be something that falls into your craft skill in order to imbue it with magic.Look through your CRB wondrous item section and count out the number of items you'd be able to make if that was true. There's more items with no skill requirements listed than there is requiring something.
A bag of holding likely does not fall into armor smithing, hard as you might argue. You can argue for boots, because armored boots are a mainstay of warriors, but cloaks? Not likely...at least, not a 'real' cloak. It would have to be a sheet of armor links or something...still a possibility, but you'd be stretching for it, and those kind of items would look pretty weird.You're imbuing it with magic through your craft skill. You take an existing masterwork bag and you attach some magical metal plates to it. A magic metal ring at the mouth where a drawstring runs and that's the magic. The bag opens the ring activates the access to the dimensional space inside. It's magic. Use some imagination.
Likewise you could add metal shoulder plates onto the cloak. You just have to be creative.
EDIT: Making armor would also give you the ability to make more things too. If you know how to form leather, stud leather, bend steel, link chain, everything else you would have learned along the way, you'd be able to apply that to making other items. I doubt a master leather armor maker wouldn't know how to make a leather backpack.
NO, just NO.
You can't put some iron plates on a bag and call that craft armor.
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Nobody is arguing you have to actually create the original item. But the item has to be something that falls into your craft skill in order to imbue it with magic.Look through your CRB wondrous item section and count out the number of items you'd be able to make if that was true. There's more items with no skill requirements listed than there is requiring something.
A bag of holding likely does not fall into armor smithing, hard as you might argue. You can argue for boots, because armored boots are a mainstay of warriors, but cloaks? Not likely...at least, not a 'real' cloak. It would have to be a sheet of armor links or something...still a possibility, but you'd be stretching for it, and those kind of items would look pretty weird.You're imbuing it with magic through your craft skill. You take an existing masterwork bag and you attach some magical metal plates to it. A magic metal ring at the mouth where a drawstring runs and that's the magic. The bag opens the ring activates the access to the dimensional space inside. It's magic. Use some imagination.
Likewise you could add metal shoulder plates onto the cloak. You just have to be creative.
EDIT: Making armor would also give you the ability to make more things too. If you know how to form leather, stud leather, bend steel, link chain, everything else you would have learned along the way, you'd be able to apply that to making other items. I doubt a master leather armor maker wouldn't know how to make a leather backpack.
NO, just NO.
You can't put some iron plates on a bag and call that craft armor.
What if he agreed to wear the bag on his head?
What if he agreed to wear the bag on his head?Nobody is arguing you have to actually create the original item. But the item has to be something that falls into your craft skill in order to imbue it with magic.Look through your CRB wondrous item section and count out the number of items you'd be able to make if that was true. There's more items with no skill requirements listed than there is requiring something.
A bag of holding likely does not fall into armor smithing, hard as you might argue. You can argue for boots, because armored boots are a mainstay of warriors, but cloaks? Not likely...at least, not a 'real' cloak. It would have to be a sheet of armor links or something...still a possibility, but you'd be stretching for it, and those kind of items would look pretty weird.You're imbuing it with magic through your craft skill. You take an existing masterwork bag and you attach some magical metal plates to it. A magic metal ring at the mouth where a drawstring runs and that's the magic. The bag opens the ring activates the access to the dimensional space inside. It's magic. Use some imagination.
Likewise you could add metal shoulder plates onto the cloak. You just have to be creative.
EDIT: Making armor would also give you the ability to make more things too. If you know how to form leather, stud leather, bend steel, link chain, everything else you would have learned along the way, you'd be able to apply that to making other items. I doubt a master leather armor maker wouldn't know how to make a leather backpack.
NO, just NO.
You can't put some iron plates on a bag and call that craft armor.
Heheh. That's funny, Mergy. :3
I agree with Leo. I think you're really stretching it. Sounds more like trying to be a munchkin (and I use that word so infrequently). And people give Ravingdork flak for his shenanigans. :P
It's like saying "Well, Craft Armor uses cloth, wood, bone, and metal, so like, I used Craft Armor to make my 10 ft. pole, my tent, my masterwork backpack, my horse, my quarterstaff, my thieves' tools, and a sword."
Yeah. No. Just no.
EDIT: Once again people making the Fighter look worse than I ever could. If you have to actively try to cheat to make the Fighter look better, then that's a big red-flag right there.
Craft weapons would make mroe sense for a ten foot pole and I might actually allow that since they could craft polearms and spears with it.
Ashiel, if the bard has +2 armor, then you start working on making it +3. You continuously upgrade. You are again ignoring that point, and ignoring the fact that I disproved each of your points with my succeeding paragraph.
Your Ranger is investing in Spellcraft the same way the fighter is in Craft skill. Cost is a wash. A +2 Int item takes care of the cost. There IS no skill point cost...there's a feat cost and a gold cost.
Your ranger can't make that elixir without investing in another feat. Cloaks of displacement are VERY expensive.
The token is SITUATIONALLY useful...once. The armor is useful ALL THE TIME.
And your example is hugely skewed. Comparing +1 Armor to a Cloak of Displacement is comparing a 24/50k item to a 1k Item. How about Celestial Armor to the minor Cloak of Displacement? How about +4 Moderate Fortification Mithral Full Plate Armor to the Major Cloak? How about Bracers of Armor +7 to the major cloak? How about a Girdle of +6 Str +4 Con to the Major Cloak?
Still think it's useless? Sorry, I am NOT following you here. His choices may be bland, but they are fundamental and neccessary, and he will always have something to do. He doesn't need the full universe...he needs to be able to make the high demand essentials, and swap for the rest. It's called Resource Management.
And 'swapping' with NPC's is as easy as the GM says it is. If you have a +1 suit of armor, and the NPC needs it, and has potions, you can swap...or 'trade', instead of buy and sell. If you go to a magic item shop, well, there's a problem. Crafters buy and sell at cost to one another all the time, and this would be especially true inside a party.
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Does Cooperative Crafting on Magic items really square the effect like that? I'm pretty sure the +10 DC to double speed doesn't apply to magical item creation, only mundane items. And remember the general rule in 3E...doubling stacks modifiers, it doesn't multiply them. So two people CC'ing would be x2, but three people would be x3, not x9...the modifiers stack, they don't multiply.
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Technically, you could make a bag of holding as a metal box, or a bag of chain mesh lined with leather...this is exactly how you make plate armor and chainmail, after all. If you can make a swimsuit out of chainmail, you can make a cloak out of it. Technically, you could make a Feather Token...just make it as a big plume that's supposed to be mounted in a helmet, and you've got full justification.
===Aelryinth
Craft weapons would make mroe sense for a ten foot pole and I might actually allow that since they could craft polearms and spears with it.
That's fair. I could see making a case for the 10 ft. pole. It really is just a long stick. Maybe a large quarterstaff even. But you'd be hard pressed to sell me on the idea that Craft (Weapons) for elixers of hiding because you put a spike on the flask, or bags of holding you put metal on it, and thus could theoretically try to hit something with the bag of holding.
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Ashiel, if the bard has +2 armor, then you start working on making it +3. You continuously upgrade. You are again ignoring that point, and ignoring the fact that I disproved each of your points with my succeeding paragraph.
Your Ranger is investing in Spellcraft the same way the fighter is in Craft skill. Cost is a wash. A +2 Int item takes care of the cost. There IS no skill point cost...there's a feat cost and a gold cost.
Your ranger can't make that elixir without investing in another feat. Cloaks of displacement are VERY expensive.
The token is SITUATIONALLY useful...once. The armor is useful ALL THE TIME.
And your example is hugely skewed. Comparing +1 Armor to a Cloak of Displacement is comparing a 24/50k item to a 1k Item. How about Celestial Armor to the minor Cloak of Displacement? How about +4 Moderate Fortification Mithral Full Plate Armor to the Major Cloak? How about Bracers of Armor +7 to the major cloak? How about a Girdle of +6 Str +4 Con to the Major Cloak?
Still think it's useless? Sorry, I am NOT following you here. His choices may be bland, but they are fundamental and neccessary, and he will always have something to do. He doesn't need the full universe...he needs to be able to make the high demand essentials, and swap for the rest. It's called Resource Management.
And 'swapping' with NPC's is as easy as the GM says it is. If you have a +1 suit of armor, and the NPC needs it, and has potions, you can swap...or 'trade', instead of buy and sell. If you go to a magic item shop, well, there's a problem. Crafters buy and sell at cost to one another all the time, and this would be especially true inside a party.
===================Does Cooperative Crafting on Magic items really square the effect like that? I'm pretty sure the +10 DC to double speed doesn't apply to magical item creation, only mundane items. And remember the general rule in 3E...doubling stacks modifiers, it doesn't multiply them. So two people CC'ing would be x2, but three people would be x3, not x9...the...
It's true that if you ignore the rules the fighter looks a lot better!
It's also true they look just fine if they use the rules. So quit throwing accusations when proof flies in the face of your beliefs.
==Aelryinth
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As Ashiel has stated, a ranger can craft all wonderous items, or all magic weapons and armour, ranger's choice, with the investment of one feat and one skill rank per level (1/15 of the ranger's total feats and 1/6 of the ranger's total skill points before stats an race).
You've stated that your fighter can craft armour by investing two feats and one skill rank per level (2/21 of the fighter's total feats and 1/2 of the fighter's total skill points before stats and race).
Now the only way those two are possibly comparable is if you ignore the rules.
Ashiel, if the bard has +2 armor, then you start working on making it +3. You continuously upgrade. You are again ignoring that point, and ignoring the fact that I disproved each of your points with my succeeding paragraph.
Your Ranger is investing in Spellcraft the same way the fighter is in Craft skill. Cost is a wash. A +2 Int item takes care of the cost. There IS no skill point cost...there's a feat cost and a gold cost.
B#@#@%*!. Spellcraft has uses beyond crafting stuff. You want to know if that BBEG is casting Summon Doomsday Monster IX or just using fabricate to make a door in the wall? Spellcraft! You want to determine the powers of a scroll? Spellcraft! Want to identify magical items? Spellcraft! Want to craft magic items? Spellcraft!
Every rank you spend is a rank you don't have. A Fighter has 2 + Int mod skills. Ranger has 6 + Int mod skills. The Fighter could get a +2 Int item and have 3 skills. Ranger could do the same and have 7 skills. You're arguing that it somehow doesn't matter because you can try to make up for the skill points, while ignoring the fact that the Ranger or Paladin doesn't have to, and could get the exact same item and pickup a skill that's legitimately useful.
The Ranger grabs: Stealth, Spellcraft, Survival, Handle Animal, Ride, and Knowledge Nature. Grabs a +2 magic item and decides to pickup Diplomacy 'cause the cool kids are doing it.
Are you really so biased? You can't at least be honest about the balance between them? You have to make up and try to cheat the rules to make Master Craftsman seem like a good deal for the Fighter?
Your ranger can't make that elixir without investing in another feat. Cloaks of displacement are VERY expensive.
Yes, and No. Cloaks of Displacement (minor) are only 22,500 gp. Or 11,250 gp if you Craft it yourself. That's less than a a +3 weapon's market cost. As for the feat, well it depends. If the Fighter or Ranger take Craft Magic Arms & Armor, the Ranger wins. If the Fighter or Ranger takes Craft Wondrous Items, the Ranger wins.
It's not about the Fighter and Ranger being in the same party. You keep talking about it being the Fighter's job to craft the armor, and the Ranger's job to craft the wondrous item. That's stupid. Are we comparing them to one another for the usefulness that they would bring to the party as a whole, or are we comparing them to being in the same party? Because whether the Ranger (or Paladin!) takes Arms & Armor or Wondrous Item, they still beat the Fighter at it. Not just the Fighter, also Rogues, Monks, and most NPC classes except Adept (adept is actually better).
And your example is hugely skewed. Comparing +1 Armor to a Cloak of Displacement is comparing a 24/50k item to a 1k Item. How about Celestial Armor to the minor Cloak of Displacement? How about +4 Moderate Fortification Mithral Full Plate Armor to the Major Cloak? How about Bracers of Armor +7 to the major cloak? How about a Girdle of +6 Str +4 Con to the Major Cloak?
Pay attention dude. Given the same time and resources (short time), the Ranger can poop out meaningful items on the cheap, and quickly. Without the time, Fighter can only make dinky items that have little to no effect because they provide small static modifiers that do not stack. So ranger wins on short-term. Later, if they get lots of downtime for the Fighter to begin making good magic armors and such in earnest, the Ranger can make super-cool magic items too. More magic items. Better magic items. More variety of magic items.
Let me put it another way: Fighter has Craft Arms & Armor and Ranger does too. Fighter can only make Armor. Ranger can make everything. They get 2 days of downtime. Ranger decides to make a quiver of +1 shurikens for the party's monk. Fighter can make a +1 armor for no one. They get 4 days of downtime. Ranger makes a +1 composite longbow or a +2 armor, Fighter can only make armor. They get 10 days of downtime. The Ranger upgrades his bow from a +1 weapon to a +3 weapon. Fighter still can get his +2 armor to a +3 armor, but not a +4 armor. Etc.
If they are competing in Wondrous Items, the Ranger wins by a landslide, because no matter how much cheating you try to do, you are not making a bag of holding, portable hole, ring gates, elixers, toknens, flying carpets, crystal balls, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...
With Craft (Armor).
And 'swapping' with NPC's is as easy as the GM says it is. If you have a +1 suit of armor, and the NPC needs it, and has potions, you can swap...or 'trade', instead of buy and sell. If you go to a magic item shop, well, there's a problem. Crafters buy and sell at cost to one another all the time, and this would be especially true inside a party.
Yeah, everyone wins with GM fiat. Who knew.
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Does Cooperative Crafting on Magic items really square the effect like that? I'm pretty sure the +10 DC to double speed doesn't apply to magical item creation, only mundane items. And remember the general rule in 3E...doubling stacks modifiers, it doesn't multiply them. So two people CC'ing would be x2, but three people would be x3, not x9...the...
Square effect? Not sure what you mean. Also, sorry, but magic item creation with the craft skill still uses magic item creation rules, so increasing the DC by +10 to craft it faster as absolutely no effect on it at all.
I mean, sure, as long as we're ignoring the rules and trying to be dirty little cheating munchkins, maybe Master Craftsman w/ Fighter isn't all bad. Of course, I don't think that makes your benchmark at all valid at that point, so I assume we're not doing that.
Does Cooperative Crafting on Magic items really square the effect like that? I'm pretty sure the +10 DC to double speed doesn't apply to magical item creation, only mundane items. And remember the general rule in 3E...doubling stacks modifiers, it doesn't multiply them. So two people CC'ing would be x2, but three people would be x3, not x9...the modifiers stack, they don't multiply.
From Magic Item Creation:
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
You can work no more than 8 hours in a day so you can double your productivity. I asked before if you should be able to increase the DC by another 5 to double again but it was pointed out that it doesn't actually say that you are doubling your productivity. It is giving a flat value that happens to be double. It also doesn't suggest that you can be any more productive.
But, Cooperative Crafting explicitly states that "your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day." As for the multiplying, this is what the PRD says about that:
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
You aren't rolling the value. You are just doubling productivity.
Note that in order for this to work, three of the four characters would have to invest in this and for non-casters, they are looking at level 9 to be able to pull this off. For some casters, they can do this at level 1 but that just means they can scribe up to 4 scrolls a day or make 4 potions. It becomes a real boon once they can craft wondrous items.
As Ashiel has stated, a ranger can craft all wonderous items, or all magic weapons and armour, ranger's choice, with the investment of one feat and one skill rank per level (1/15 of the ranger's total feats and 1/6 of the ranger's total skill points before stats an race).
You've stated that your fighter can craft armour by investing two feats and one skill rank per level (2/21 of the fighter's total feats and 1/2 of the fighter's total skill points before stats and race).
Now the only way those two are possibly comparable is if you ignore the rules.
Wait a second. It's not 1/15th of the rangers feats. You should only count the feats that can be invested into this. It's one feat that the ranger can't take until level 11 (character feats are at odd levels and rangers don't get 3rd level spells until level 10). That's rather important to note. Also, it isn't a bonus feat so it's actually 1/10th of the investments but the ranger can only pick it up when he has gone through half his levels.
So the ranger can either pick up Craft Wondrous Items at the same time as the fighter or can wait 4 more levels and save a feat and some skill investment.
Here's a character which (if I didn't screw him up somewhere) solves a few questions at once:
1 - Crafting without being a spellcaster; how it's done
2 - Providing a character for the acid tests, to compare against Fighter builds
Here we go...
Note that I gave him WBL as a PC (800k, right?)
Sean (Sean Commoner)
Human Commoner 20
Stats = 13, 13, 13, 14 (12+2race), 11, 13; progression is Con, Dex, Str, Cha, Wis, resulting in 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 14
Ranks = 20 x (2+2int+1race) = 100: Acrobatics (3cc), Appraise (6cc), Climb (14), Craft Jewelry (20), Handle Animal (12), Know Local (1cc), Know History (1cc), Perception (20), Ride (11), Swim (12)
HP = 20 x (1d6+2con+1favored+1feat): 20d6+80 … averaging 146 hp
Feats = Improved Initiative (b), Toughness, Improved Unarmed Strike, Master Craftsman (jewelry), Craft Wondrous Item, Quickdraw, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, Vital Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
B.Saves = +6/6/6; +10/10/9
B.Attack = +10/5; +12/7 melee or ranged
“Nekked”
AC = 12 (+2 dex)
Full Attack = +12/7 melee (1d3+2)
Vital Strike = +1d3 on damage when using attack action
CMB = +12
CMD = 24
History
Originally recognized by a wizard as rather talented and well-rounded (see ability scores), and was employed as a jewelsmith for enhancing material components, as a courier, and for maintaining the wizard’s pets. But wizards attract attention, and so simply by association, trouble found him a few times. He ended up surviving by wits and luck… at first. Then (after raising a couple levels) he realized he was quite useful, and included himself on more and more of his employer’s exploits, facing danger and somehow pulling through.
At level 7, he surprised his employer by crafting his first headband of vast intellect +2 (UMD), and was suddenly able to use wands and scrolls, amplifying his usefulness. He eventually made more headbands, and used the knowledge to author books on various knowledge skills, professions and crafting methods. He retired comfortably as a world renowned professional in various fields, for 5 years, before (at age 35) hungering for new adventures. He’s never stopped since.
==Int Headbands==
Vast Intelligence +2 (Appraise), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Armor), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Weapons), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Leatherworking), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Tailoring), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Alchemy), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Books), Vast Intelligence +4 (Craft Calligraphy, Craft Painting), Vast Intelligence +2 (Craft Shoes), Vast Intelligence +6 (Disable Device, Craft Traps, Professional Trapper), Vast Intelligence +2 (Disguise), Vast Intelligence +2 (Heal), Vast Intelligence +2 (Knowledge Arcana), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know Dungeoneering), Vast Intelligence +6 (Know Engineering, Professional Architect, Professional Engineer), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know Geography), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know History), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know Nature), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know Nobility), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know Planes), Vast Intelligence +2 (Know Religion), Vast Intelligence +2 (Linguistics), Vast Intelligence +4 (Perform Singing, Perform Strings), Vast Intelligence +2 (Perform Percussion), Vast Intelligence +4 (Perform Wind, Perform Dance), Vast Intelligence +2 (Professional Cook), Vast Intelligence +6 (Professional Gambler, Bluff, Sense Motive), Vast Intelligence +2 (Professional Herbalist), Vast Intelligence +2 (Professional Stable Master), Vast Intelligence +2 (Professional Sailor), Vast Intelligence +4 (Sleight of Hand, Perform Comedy), Vast Intelligence +4 (Survival, Professional Trapper)
[total 71k cost]
==Crafting Bracers==
Bracelets of the Legendary Weaponsmith (provides the feats of Master Craftsman (craft weapon) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor) – worth 7500gp
Bracelets of the Legendary Armorsmith (provides the feats of Master Craftsman (craft armor) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor) – worth 7500gp
Bracelets of the Legendary Brewmaster (provides the feats of Master Craftsman (craft alchemy) and Craft Wondrous Items) – worth 7500gp
Bracelets of the Legendary Tailor (provides the feats of Master Craftsman (craft tailoring) and Craft Wondrous Items) – worth 7500gp
Bracelets of the Legendary Author (provides the feats of Master Craftsman (craft books) and Craft Wondrous Items) – worth 7500gp
Bracelets of the Legendary Leatherworker (provides the feats of Master Craftsman (craft leatherworking) and Craft Wondrous Items) – worth 7500gp
[total 22.5k cost]
==Gear==
He carries around an efficient quiver filled with wands, rods and staves (plus his favorite spear), used via his UMD-providing headbands.
Though not particularly capable in combat for many of the dangers he faces, he is still more than regular folk can handle (CR 1-6 foes).
Wears a Mithril Chain Shirt (no ACP; no proficiency needed) +5, with Energy Resist (fire, cold, electrical, acid) and Improved Shadows [25k+15k+72k, +2kbase; 58k cost]
Favorite Spear is +5 with Defending, Ghost Touch, Spell Storing, Returning and Distance [200k, +1k base; 101k cost]
28 Wands: Extended Adjuring Step (CL3, 6 rounds), Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Extended Mount (CL3, 12 hours), Protection From Evil, Reduce Person, Shield, Silent Image, True Strike, Unseen Servant, Extended Vanish (CL3, 6 rounds), Cure Light Wounds, Extended Longstrider (CL3, 6 hours), Endure Elements, Resist Energy (CL3), Keen Senses, Remove Sickness, Remove Fear, Lesser Restoration, Create Pit (CL3), Darkvision (CL3), Faerie Fire, Locate Object (CL3), Animal Aspect (CL3), Extended Rope Trick (CL5, 10 hours) [60k]
3 Rods: Immovable x2, Metal/Mineral Detection [20.5k]
280k
Belt: Ph-Perfection +6 (77k)
Body (robe, vestment): Blending (4.5k)
Eyes: Eagle (1.5k)
Feet: Winged Boots (8k)
Hands: Gloves of Swimming and Climbing (3.5k)
Head: Helm of Telepathy (13.5k)
Headband: M-Superiority +6 (UMD, Stealth, Survival) [77k]
Neck: Natural Armor +4 (16k)
Ring1: Freedom of Movement (40k)
Ring2: Protection +5 (50k)
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance +5 (12.5k)
Wrists: Bracers of Archery – Lesser (2.5k)
Other: Quiver (1k) with 10 arrows, 10 silver arrows, 10 cold iron arrows and 10 adamantine arrows, plus 10 wands; his rods, spear and a longbow +1/STR16 (2k) are there.
Other: Handy Haversack with other stuff, including all the headbands and bracers, plus books he wrote on all manner of headband-provided skills (+2 where applicable)
583k so far…
Manuals +8 worth: +2STR, +2DEX, +2CON, +2WIS… don’t forget the +20hp from the CON
795k spent; close enough.
Str 22(16), Dex 22(16), Con 22(16), Int 20(14), Wis 20(14), Cha 20(14)
AC 34 (10 +9armor +5defl +6dex +4natural)
Saves +19/19/18
Spear: +21/16 Melee or Ranged (1d8+14/x3; BR 40); add 1d8 on Vital Strike
Bow: +17/12 Ranged (1d8+4/x3); add 1d8 on Vital Strike
Unarmed: +16/11 melee (1d3+6); add 1d3 on Vital Strike
CMB: +16, CMD 32
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As Ashiel has stated, a ranger can craft all wonderous items, or all magic weapons and armour, ranger's choice, with the investment of one feat and one skill rank per level (1/15 of the ranger's total feats and 1/6 of the ranger's total skill points before stats an race).
You've stated that your fighter can craft armour by investing two feats and one skill rank per level (2/21 of the fighter's total feats and 1/2 of the fighter's total skill points before stats and race).
Now the only way those two are possibly comparable is if you ignore the rules.
Wait a second. It's not 1/15th of the rangers feats. You should only count the feats that can be invested into this. It's one feat that the ranger can't take until level 11 (character feats are at odd levels and rangers don't get 3rd level spells until level 10). That's rather important to note. Also, it isn't a bonus feat so it's actually 1/10th of the investments but the ranger can only pick it up when he has gone through half his levels.
So the ranger can either pick up Craft Wondrous Items at the same time as the fighter or can wait 4 more levels and save a feat and some skill investment.
You are correct. Four more levels to be able to craft all weapons and all armour, instead of just one offshoot. He's the one-stop shop.
It's one feat that the ranger can't take until level 11 (character feats are at odd levels and rangers don't get 3rd level spells until level 10).
Um, no, sorry. The requirements on item creation feats is caster level. Being able to cast spells, or what level of spells you can create is irrelevant. A Ranger can take Craft Wondrous Item at 7th level (CL 3rd), and Craft Magic Arms & Armor at CL 9th (CL 5th).
How they get those caster levels, or where they come from, is irrelevant. If you had a caster level and can't even cast spells, you can still take it.
EDIT: Off-topic a bit, but if you really want a Fighter that can craft magic items better than a Ranger, just make a gnome fighter. I mean, technically it's a wash in this argument 'cause you could have a gnome ranger, but it's a decent way of getting item creation feats promptly and on more or less any class. You still have to use spellcraft OR an appropriate skill, but at least you have the option then, and can use different types of craft skills if desired.
EDIT 2: Plus, gnomes are cool! :P
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It's still a general feat.
And the Ranger being better at the task is again a moot point. The fighter can make stuff, continue to make stuff, and be constantly useful and busy making stuff. That's LEVERAGING DOWN TIME. Your whole argument is a 'moving of the goalposts'. DOes the fact the Wizard is better at crafting then the ranger, and gets bonus feats so that he can make more items, mean that the Ranger's ability is worthless?
No. But you are making the same argument aginst the Fighter.
So what if the Ranger can make everything? He doesn't have the time.
And as Bob pointed out, they can both start crafting at the exact same time...one because of restrictions on general feats, and the other because of the same and restrictions on caster level.
And oh look. We can both avoid taking the crafting feats entirely by making magic items that give them to us. How nice, Malignor. Now, no cost at all, feats or anything. All you need is the right headband with the right casting feat.
Which is all superfluous, because the constraint on crafting is TIME, not WHAT. The fighter is a perfectly acceptable crafter, he just focuses on different stuff then the ranger. HE can contribute during downtime. The fact that other classes are more versatile at it is IRRELEVANT to the fighter.
He can do his part. That's all that's important.
And I wasn't the one making the x16 argument or the x2 speed argument. I was calling it out for validation. Get your sources and accusations right.
And as for the swapping argument, if it has to be between characters, then its between characters. It still works, and its equal value. But saying a character is going to make something and then NOT GET PAID FOR IT...goes against all economics. Trading instead of selling is the way of the world, and there's nothing in the rules that says you cannot do that...you just have to find a place big enough that someone needs what you want, without going through the middleman with the huge markup, who is shafting THEM just as much as you.
In essence, you find the fighter who wants the magic armor and can make magic weapons, and you swap output. You don't go to the magic shop, and neither does he.
==Aelryinth
It's one feat that the ranger can't take until level 11 (character feats are at odd levels and rangers don't get 3rd level spells until level 10).Um, no, sorry. The requirements on item creation feats is caster level. Being able to cast spells, or what level of spells you can create is irrelevant. A Ranger can take Craft Wondrous Item at 7th level (CL 3rd), and Craft Magic Arms & Armor at CL 9th (CL 5th).
How they get those caster levels, or where they come from, is irrelevant. If you had a caster level and can't even cast spells, you can still take it.
EDIT: Off-topic a bit, but if you really want a Fighter that can craft magic items better than a Ranger, just make a gnome fighter. I mean, technically it's a wash in this argument 'cause you could have a gnome ranger, but it's a decent way of getting item creation feats promptly and on more or less any class. You still have to use spellcraft OR an appropriate skill, but at least you have the option then, and can use different types of craft skills if desired.
EDIT 2: Plus, gnomes are cool! :P
I was going by memory instead of looking it up. My point doesn't really change much though. The ranger isn't using his class features, he's using general feats. That was the point I was trying to make. At this point though, he can pick up Craft Wondrous Items at the same level as the fighter but with a one feat lower investment. It's not all that significant in the long run. Neither class should really be focused on crafting anyway. Leave that to the classes that have the magic to invest. Full casters make much better crafters.
If the ranger does pick up something like Craft Arms and Armor at level 8, then he will be more limited in what he can craft than the fighter because the ranger would be using his caster level to make the magic weapons and armor whereas the fighter would be using his ranks, which would essentially put the fighter three caster levels ahead. This would allow for better weapons or armor (depending on which one he focused on). As a house rule, I would allow someone to take Master Craftsman more than once, but they would have to choose a new skill each time.
If the fighter did invest in crafting his own weapons or armor or wondrous items, then doesn't this actually eliminate or reduce the effectiveness of the argument about the fighter needing casters to make his gear or buff him?
See Sean Commoner above.
I've built a Commoner who can craft as good as any Fighter.
If a Commoner can do it, anyone can do it.
Therefore, the Fighter class brings nothing.
Do not hate the Fighter.
Instead, cry for the fighter.
Houserule changes to the class.
Express a desire for official changes.
Profit.
Why are people still trying to downplay the fighter? I really don't understand this.
What kind of proof will it take for some of you to realize that you are wrong about the fighter? What exactly is it going to take?
It's like arguing that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4.
Isn't it ironic that we who are unhappy with the design of the Fighter are using more math to back us up...
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Why are people still trying to downplay the fighter? I really don't understand this.
What kind of proof will it take for some of you to realize that you are wrong about the fighter? What exactly is it going to take?
It's like arguing that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4.
I've yet to see the bolded aspect of your post. I've seen people use their general "everybody gets a feat every odd level" feats to try to make up for the fighter's lack of non-combat utility. The fighter class in those cases brought nothing to the table.
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There are not many things that only class X can do. If that is the criteria then a lot of classes are failing at bringing something to the table.
It's still a general feat.
Which the Ranger qualifies for due to his class.
And the Ranger being better at the task is again a moot point.
Except that it the Ranger is better at it due to his class.
The fighter can make stuff, continue to make stuff, and be constantly useful and busy making stuff.
no thanks to his class. And he sucks at it.
That's LEVERAGING DOWN TIME. Your whole argument is a 'moving of the goalposts'.
I don't even see goalposts. What goalpost are you looking for here?
DOes the fact the Wizard is better at crafting then the ranger, and gets bonus feats so that he can make more items, mean that the Ranger's ability is worthless?
Nope. Means that it's a pro that the wizard's class has over Ranger though. Ranger can craft everything the Wizard can. It's just harder for the Ranger. Fighter can't craft everything either of them can, and has to burn more feats, because his class doesn't help him at all.
No. But you are making the same argument aginst the Fighter.
So what if the Ranger can make everything? He doesn't have the time.
Time is relative. In fact, there is nothing that determines of you will have time or not. The higher your level becomes, the less time becomes an issue. By high levels, it is possible to take time out of the equation, because you can travel to a plane with slowed to halted time, craft all your items, and then travel back to your home plane. Congratulations, no time has past on the material plane, but you crafted 3 months worth of items.
It is literally impossible to argue that the Ranger's class does not allow him to qualify for magic item creation feats, or that it is not conductive to magic item creation. It is literally impossible to say that the Fighter's does, as he cannot even qualify for the whole feat (at best you get a limited dumbed down version, sort of like being able to take Power Attack, but only being able to get a +1 for every -1, instead of +3:-1 with a 2 hander, it's power attack but it's a dumbed down power attack that is far less useful), and nothing in his class is conductive to doing so.
So making the argument that Fighters are anywhere near the ballpark of other classes in terms of item creation is just crazy. This goes for Rogues and Monks too. Though, actually I take that back, because a rogue can pickup item creation feats due to their class as well.
So...yeah.
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Isn't it ironic that we who are unhappy with the design of the Fighter are using more math to back us up...Why are people still trying to downplay the fighter? I really don't understand this.
What kind of proof will it take for some of you to realize that you are wrong about the fighter? What exactly is it going to take?
It's like arguing that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4.
What math are you talking about? The only proof that I've seen are actual builds that were posted by Bob and those builds covered the situations that some of you complained about. Of course once those builds were shown the goalposts were moved.
Why does the fighter need to be superb at lots of other things when it's already fantastic at what it was designed for?
And what is that? It just isn't combat.