Goblin Squad Member
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I believe that thievery vs PCs (whether pick-pocketing or burglary) is just too easy to abuse, no matter what checks and balances you put into the game. The cost in terms of manpower and $$ for time spend designing, coding, debugging, then the inevitable GM time dealing with asshats that still will find ways to abuse it and harass players is just too high.
I suggest that thievery be limited to PvE - monster encampments having burglarizable buildings with a special thief pool of goods, to pick-pocketing monsters (again with a special thief pool of goods), to trap finding / removing, etc in dungeon settings. This will provide an outlet for those with the desire to genuinely RP a thief without providing the headache and high cost of trying to police and prevent the abuses that I /know/ will happen if its implemented against PCs.
--Lady of the LazyLeopards
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Goblin Squad Member
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Going back to the idea of actions in a hex determine how the hex behaves, letting thieves steal from NPCs in your hex, and become wanted criminals (a bounty is on them, for maybe 2-3 gold) could be a good source of content. They get to do their thing, and the law keepers then head out to chase them down and keep them out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ideally, a Thief who targets PCs should have a steeply increasing % of being identified and have an automated bounty put on their head.
NPC Guards will attack on sight, and Players can attack you as well to claim the bounty with no risk of earning bounties on themselves.
If you haven't sold or dismantled the items before you're caught, happy ending for the home owners, they get their stuff back and you get gold taken from your character and are given dubious missions to fulfil to get back into society's good graces.
If you have sold and/or dismantled the items ... you take an even bigger gold hit as the NPC Guards distribute your wealth back to the other players, and if you run out of gold before they are repaid, well .... you remain 'murder-bait' until X amount of time has passed to all other PCs within that Hex.
Happy Ending ensures people get their shinies back and the Thief gets an ass-kicking, and hopefully decides to NOT camp a region overlong.
Bad Ending causes players to need to replenish their stolen goods and have some additional currency to do so. Also the Thief in question is in a hell of a lot of trouble and is likely K.O.S. until he or she leaves the borders of the Hex.
In regards to the mailbox .... stolen items remain 'hot' property for a number of days. And I mean 'Real Life' days, not In Game days. Unable to be mailed, unable to be vendored to 90% of the NPCs.
Other PCs might be willing to purchase them, but at a greatly reduced rate, given the status of the goods and the risk of being caught with them and 'fingered' as the Thief.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@HalfOrcHeavyMetal
That only encourages people to create two characters, a criminal, and a spender. There can never be a harsh enough punishment akin to RL theft conciquences, because people can just switch characters/accounts.
Check my post on consequences of 'hot property' trading. Multiple characters or accounts would have zero impact on this system's implementation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How so? you mention nothing of items trading hands in that post, it's just about storage.
There will be holes in every system this community ties to bring forward, and they will all hurt honest players more than criminals.
That is why I suggested they be able to steal from NPC homes and shops, and potentially increase the chaos level of a hex, and cause NPC's to be unhappy, but be unable to steal from PC's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is why I suggested they be able to steal from NPC homes and shops, and potentially increase the chaos level of a hex, and cause NPC's to be unhappy, but be unable to steal from PC's.How so? you mention nothing of items trading hands in that post, it's just about storage.
There will be holes in every system this community ties to bring forward, and they will all hurt honest players more than criminals.
I'm fine with NPC theft, and that is all they should have in the starting product.
PvP theft early in the games development doesn't help anyone and will only slow down progress of the game world, also it reduces the amount of people participating in the game's faucets generating the initial wealth of the population.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealing from PCs is just stupid as it is basically a PvE encounter (Thief vs counter measures).
Also the need for Scouts and Spies covers most aspects of what makes Rogues appealing to people without the need to introduce a stupid balance nightmare of frustration.
So, yes, as I said 150 posts ago, banditry is fine (because it is real PvP) but thievery is not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Question on this topic. If it is going to be allowed that items not threaded to your person might be randomly looted by someone who has PKed you, then what is the difference of having those same unthreaded items being potentially stolen by thieves? If they are flagged so that you have the chance to "notice" their theft, you then have the opportunity to kill them and take back that item. I think you are likely to have a far better chance cutting down a thief who took your item than you would trying to kill a seasoned PK. Add to that, especially if your perception skill is high, that the thief will likely still be in range of your sword when you notice his/her hand in your pack, whereas the PK will likely be far away looking for his next victim by the time you resurrect and return to the scene of the crime.
If there is some flaw in the logic of my argument based on previously posted rules, please let me know. I do not presume to have read every blog that might deal with this subject.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs
It's the difference between active and passive resistance. If someone PKs me (unless they're cheating) they can't kill me without me noticing. I will always have the chance to actively resist. If someone steals from me, it is a passive resistance. If they're picking my pocket, I have to hope the game mechanically decides I notice it, which is outside my control. If they're stealing my house, they're going up against whatever automated defenses I've put in place, and again, *I* as a player cannot actively resist them. I'm just left to haplessly discover my belongings are missing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Dario
Given how unskilled my characters usually are fighting, I think I would have a better chance of retaliating on a caught thief than defending against someone who has built their character for the sole cause of killing other players. In my case, the only "active" thing happening from my side of the PK scenario is "actively" watching myself get killed. :)
However, thank you for the opposite perspective.
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Having read through this thread my first reaction was I am not in favour of theft from characters. Having thought a bit more I have a suggestion which may please both sides.
The idea is simple consensual theft.
When players create a building...such as a bank,forge etc they can choose to set up a cache of stealable items. The value of this cache enhances the abilities of the building
For instance a bank build with 100 rubies in the cache may provide 10% extra storage space for the settlement. A forge with 100 iron bars in the cache may get a 5% bonus to skill in forging etc.
Players building these can also pay to put traps etc in the way to make the theft cache harder to loot.
If the cache is emptied the building loses its extra bonus until the cache is restored. The cache can be added to or depleted by the controlling player at will.
This way thieves get to steal and players get to set their level of risk and hopefully everyone is happy.
Pagan
Pax Aeturnum
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Goblin Squad Member
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ZenPagan,
Very nice idea. It seems in keeping with GW's proposed idea of players choosing their level of risk for settlements and those settlements advancing in scale based on those accepted levels of risk.
As much as some players might wonder why they should offer up any of their hard earned goods for player theft, I would submit several reasons.
1. It allows there to be some reason for certain skills - primarily, stealing. Games that have tried to feature thief or rogue archetypes that cannot actually steal (and no, I don't count the GW2 idea of stealing monsters' abilities true stealing), seem to be denying players the main source of livelihood for the "class". Such thief classes are, unfortunately, downgraded to stealthy warriors.
2. It allows for a more role-played means of possible loss. I remember in UO, Catskills shard, where we established a rule for permissible theft and looting. People carried a yellow bag within their backpacks. Anything put in this bag was fair game. It gave people just enough to sate their desire for spoils. At the same time, RPed plot items could be placed in the bag to allow for possible theft and launch a whole new tangent of a storyline (the courier who's message had been lifted, the caravaner who lost his iron bars, etc.). I've always found the loss of a little loot to be worthwhile if it promotes RP interaction.
3. It allows for the need of juxtaposed skills - locksmith vs lockpicker, trap setter vs trap disarmer, stealther vs perceptive warden.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a roguish entity myself, I have to admit that I support the idea of traps -- both player created and possibly environmental (dungeons).
I also like the idea of being able to pick locks, and think that flagging should be long term for doing so. It would also be neat to be able to sabotage crafting stations, buildings, etc. although I have no expectation that this will be part of the game.
That said, I think it's fair to expect some measure of safety for one's belongings to a certain degree. NPC guards at settlements, fortifications, defensive bonuses, sufficient length of time to call for reinforcements during a siege, etc. should hopefully give settlement owners some security. More importantly, fostering inter-company/settlement trade and allowing both cooperation and competition will hopefully make battles and sieges meaningful and not something done "just because".
I would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. Sorry
IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. SorryI would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
Ah well, it was worth a shot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah well, it was worth a shot.IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. SorryI would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
Well, I guess they assumed, that way to many people would ragequit the game, if the were to log in and see that everything they own has been stolen.
Well, I guess they assumed, that way to many people would ragequit the game, if the were to log in and see that everything they own has been stolen.Ah well, it was worth a shot.IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. SorryI would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
Were you talking about pickpocketing or breaking into people's houses when you said they won't be adding it to the game?
Personally, if player thieves can break into my house while I’m offline and steal. Pathfinder will never see a dime from me . About the only way I would even consider playing under those rules would be a Permadeath sentence for failed thieves
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Goblin Squad Member
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Opt-in/Opt-out might be the way to do this fairly.
If you want to allow thieves to try to take your stuff (or a reward-type of chest for success), you buy traps or guards/dogs/watch-rats and devise your defenses. When you are happy with them, "flip a switch" somehow, to make your little mini-dungeon available to thieves. Turning off the "Thief-able" flag would prevent anyone from doing it ("You case the joint, but realize that the risk/reward would simply not be worth it. You move on to other prospects.").
If a thief finds a property with the "rob-me" flag set, they try their skill at your protections. Failure could mean anything from "you run away while the alarm sounds", to "You awake in the city gaol, with a headache, and in irons. Now what?", to "Your spirit leaves your broken, pierced, poisoned, crushed, semi-devoured body to enjoy the afterlife".
I'm not communicating very well, but my real point is: make it player-select to be included or excluded in the crime wave. If included, the player ought to be given the opportunity to pit (no pun intended) his trap skills and security ideas against the thief. It almost has to be a modular set of things to check against, so it can be done if the vulnerable owner is off-line.
Going a step further... maybe "vacation-mode" toggles would make your property simply a block of stone in the game.
Personally I'm not in favor of allowing homes to be entered by anyone the owner didn't approve of. Nor banks for that matter. Would love to see pick pocketing added if it could be done in a fair way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Were you talking about pickpocketing or breaking into people's houses when you said they won't be adding it to the game?Well, I guess they assumed, that way to many people would ragequit the game, if the were to log in and see that everything they own has been stolen.Ah well, it was worth a shot.IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. SorryI would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
I don't have to quote ready, but IIRC they said that neither of those things would be in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not that I was planning on being a burglar, but I would like the opportunity to steal from Pc's homes as part of the contract / bounty system.
Say for example two merchants (PCs) are in competition with each other, and they use the contract system to hinder each other. This could actually be a Trade War contract, making there homes, stores and caravans fair game as war targets. Instead of warfare being about body counts, it could be over economic wins and loses.
Rather than hiring mercenaries, the warring parties would hire thieves and bandits!
I don't have to quote ready, but IIRC they said that neither of those things would be in the game.
That's fine. I've not run across that info. Not that big a deal to me anyway. :)
What if it was offered as part of a risk/reward system? For instance, personal homes cannot be broken into when they are first established, however, you may purchase various add-ons, such as rooms or items or what-have-you, one of which is additional storage space. Once you have purchased/selected that option, you open your residence up to the possibility of burglary which can be reduced with traps, etc. The more extra storage space you purchase, the better the chance that someone may burgle you.
Now, burglary doesn't have to be a game-changer, either. It should be difficult for the burglar with minimal reward, perhaps only 1 or 2 random stacks from the player's cache. I would love to see the encounter as a series of various skill check mini-games based upon the traps the player has set. The mini-games will be more or less difficult depending on both your skill level and the level of the trap.
This system has incentive to steal, incentive to be open to burglary and gives players a different way to interact with each other. I would bet you would even find friends trying to steal from each other just to see who can build the better trap!
Edit: As fun as I think this is, I also don't see it being a top priority. I would expect a system like this would not be active at EE and probably not even at launch, but perhaps implemented later on when the devs have the time to dedicate to it. I just think it's fun!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why could you not expect player organizations to cover things 24/7. I certainly can expect no one person to be on 24/7, but in a group of 200-400, you can expect a good amount of them to be online at any given time. Throw in NPCs, traps, walls or other defenses that allow the defenders to be at an advantage even with less numbers, and it becomes perfectly reasonable to expect the home territory to be covered 24/7.The problem here is: Time spent online
You can't expect players to protect their stuff 24/7 and you cant expect player organizations to protect stuff. In real life you would have shifts covering security 24/7, that is not possible and should never be an expectation in a video game.
You can't expect a good amount of them to be online at any given time. My bet is 95% of the group plays 5/7 days of the week and no one is usually online between the hours of 1-10am. You can't expect the late shift to spend all of their time protecting stuff that belongs to people they hardly/never play with.
If you want to make a successful game it needs to be just as enjoyable for the person that plays 10 hours a week as it is for the person that plays 40 hours a week.
And i'm not really into fulfilling some adolescent-adult's control fantasies just so my stuff can be marginally safe.
Hopefully they handle settlements/cities/kingdoms kind of like cities in SWG, where a group runs the city, and other people can pay to have their house protected(npc uuber guard outside the door) in that city.
This is the one area where i really don't care about immersion. I'm not looking to always be on edge while i'm playing the game. I'm not looking for another source of stress. If there is no protection system in place and i lost 6 months worth of work, I would quit. If i lost it because i was stupid and didn't use the proper storage, i would stay.
I would be completely fine if they shafted career thieves and made it a PvE only function. I don't find...
I Agree 100%.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tying security of ones belongings to the size of their player organization as well as to the security level of their settlement strongly discourages people from forming small guilds, going without a guild, or from forming new settlements. Any such guilds or settlements that do appear would be automatic targets for vultures.
You have a point. I also agree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as thieves sneaking in and stealing things from houses. This should be EXTREMELY limited if allowed. I personally think that thieves should mainly be used in dungeons and against NPC houses. What the heck is the point of a house with storage if a level 20 rouge with high lockpick and trap-finding/disarming skills can just break in and take everything on a moments notice? It is not a viable mechanic.
That is my oppinion too.