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I'm kind of tempted to put a catfolk villain in a game now. Aberrant sorcerer personality based off of Charlie Sheen since he has tiger blood and all that.
Yeah sounds pretty 'normal' if you ask me. Just another flavor of human for the player probably -- just like the elves, dwarves and short humans already in the game.
Don't forget the humans raised to be assassins.
I'm kind of tempted to put a catfolk villain in a game now. Aberrant sorcerer personality based off of Charlie Sheen since he has tiger blood and all that.
Hey, there are lots of scary as hell big cat related races out there. Kzinti, Kilrathi, Togrutans, and so on and on. :)
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I'm kind of tempted to put a catfolk villain in a game now. Aberrant sorcerer personality based off of Charlie Sheen since he has tiger blood and all that.Hey, there are lots of scary as hell big cat related races out there. Kzinti, Kilrathi, Togrutans, and so on and on. :)
(S)He could mind control all the people in the village to put on furry suits and have a convention.
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I need a clip of Marlon Brando saying, "the....horror....." now....
Creative Director
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Just as there's a lot of differences in how humans look from each other, and in how cats look from each other, so is there differences in how catfolk look from each other.
We've only just introduced the race. We'll be publishing more art of them in the future, at the very least in Advanced Race Guide. In fact, we've taken the deliberate step in the Advanced Race Guide to depict different class roles and different genders when at all possible for race illustrations than those we've presented already in print. AKA: the catfolk in Advanced Race Guide still looks like a catfolk, but doesn't look the same as the one in Bestairy 3.
Which is the same way we treat humans and elves and the like.
Cats also have different behaviors, much like ordinary humans, so you can play them however you like.I'm eager for the ARG, one of the things that has bugged me more than anything else is playing a race and not knowing their appropriate age, I'm not even sure why, I don't place that much emphasis on age outside of youth.
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Here's to more female dwarves and half-orcs!
You know what? Fine. I'll let her be a catfolk. Moment the f&$%~@ry starts though she's getting swarmed by Akatas.
It's your game and you do have a legit reason to say no, like you did to the player who wanted to play a Tiefling. Its your view of the situation that I have a hard time understanding. The whole catfolk is going to equal sex in your game? While I know next to nothing of furries I imagine that they are like any sub culture, which can range from simple interest to more extreme (this is the internet after all, if you think of it than there is porn of it), just like gamers. Do RPGs get into the rest of your life or other hobbies?
In the games I've played in the only time romance came into the foreground was in an Arthurian style game. We spent several game sessions trying to marry off various knights in our group. I will stress that this was romance, sex never came into the picture in the game.
I have no idea if your player is a furry or just someone who grew up on 80s cartoons. When Return of the Jedi came out when I was a kid, I loved Ewoks. My teddy bear was an Ewok. I still have a soft spot for them even though most people think they're lame. I also grew up watching Thundercats too. Back then, I would have jumped at the chance to play races like those. Now, not so much but I can understand why others might want to play them.
On a side note, Ewoks are totally lame :)
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No I was seriously considering letting her play a catfolk, against my better judgment, and then Finn K shows up with the melodramatic force of 1000 MTV bisexuals crammed into a single Hot Topic and I remember why my policy on catfolk has always been "no. Not only no, but hell no."
I was going to apologize to you (as I already did in a post addressed to Mikaze) for implying that your comments were on the same type of line as Trikk's. Instead, you come out with posts like these...
If you noted Trikk's response to you, which is still up (I find it interesting my original response to him was removed, but that wasn't)-- First thing he says is a very direct implication that anyone who wants to play Catfolk must be doing it because they have a sexual fetish that they want to rub in the faces of everyone else in the game.
The last thing he says in that post is another direct implication that anyone who wants to play a catfolk must be sexually deviant.
Yeah, it's a stereotype that it's out there, it's very offensive, and it's been thrown around and said way too much. So, I reacted to it.
Now, you've come across with not just one comment, but four or five by this point, either insulting me directly, or generally insulting anyone who likes catfolk by tying them to ugly stereotypes. Your personal policies for your game are fine-- you don't want to allow catfolk, you don't have to. But lay off the personal crap, and lay off the insults, and lay off the attacks.
No I was seriously considering letting her play a catfolk, against my better judgment, and then Finn K shows up with the melodramatic force of 1000 MTV bisexuals crammed into a single Hot Topic and I remember why my policy on catfolk has always been "no. Not only no, but hell no."
Finn K overreacted. Drastically. But he overreacted against someone who can't/won't acknowledge that being a furry fan isn't a sexual fetish. Which, inherently, it isn't. A fan of anthropomorphic artwork no more inherently fetishizes their interest than Star Trek fans inherently fetishize Vulcans and Klingons. That doesn't excuse how over the top he went with it but it also doesn't mean he didn't have a legit concern to address.
Some people are always going to play up annoying behavior, regardless of their interests and any stereotypes thereof. But a lot of reasonable furries (the sorts who might get you to rethink your assumptions), if given the impression you expect their brain to fall out the moment you learn they're a furry fan, will either hide it rather than subject themselves to such an attitude or they weren't likely to play it up in the first place because not all of them do. Furries come in as many varieties as gamers and judging people based on stereotypes rather than behavior is the sort of thing a lot of people in the gaming community have had to struggle against as it is for some reason or another.
(Full disclaimer: If it's not obvious I'm also a member of the furry fandom. I've been so for over 13 years. I'm not going to pretend I'm not a little biased in the discussion. I don't really care if people like furries or not; what gets me on my soapbox is the ignorant misconception that 'furry fan' is purely and exclusively a sexual interest and those who say 'don't blame me, the internet says so and even if it's wrong who am I to argue against the internet' when challenged on it.)
Blastoguy, I think you should let your player read this thread. Seriously. She should see the issues and stereotypes she's going to have to struggle against before she'll be able to enjoy this character. She also deserves to be fully informed of the attitude you're taking on this before she subjects herself to what is an unfortunately-obvious prejudice on the matter (I'm afraid your usage of 'against my better judgement', among other expressions, doesn't speak well of your intentions in starting this thread) and it might be best if she waits for you to calm down before playing this character. That said, unless she's previously given you reason to believe that she's a disruptive player, letting her play a catfolk is not likely to suddenly turn her into one. I'm a furry fan and there are players I wouldn't allow to play catfolk because I know how they would handle it but I try not to run games for disruptive players. But in the end that's up to you and her to sort out for your game regardless of any overreaction in either direction in this thread.
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I have played many catfolk characters over the years from Red Box D&D to the tail end of 3.5. My favorite was a lascivious catfolk bard in a Spelljammer campaign. The DM asked me to stop trying to sleep with all of the npcs and I replied:
"In the tradition of the Honorable Captain James Tiberius Kirk it is my moral imperative to seduce any and all willing females that I meet provided they have the necessary plumbing to do the deed."
The whole time he thought "Tiber" was a bad play on "tiger"...
My most recent was a Triani smuggler in a Star Wars SAGA game.
I've always loved cats and I have fun trying to play their attitude as a character. When I was in elementary school waaaaaaaay back in the 80s the teacher read "Puss in Boots" to us. Needless to say, that was who I was playing on the playground until everyone saw Star Wars and then I became Han Solo.
"The Secret of N.I.H.M." cartoon makes me want to play a ratfolk character but I've never seen the race done properly.
"The Velveteen Rabbit" doesn't make me want to play a bunny but "Watership Down" sure as hell does.
The point is to not judge your players for their character choices but to work with them to make the character they WANT to play that has a role in the party. I've had more trouble with dwarves who were either too drunk all the time or just complete jerks, elves who wanted to run free in the wilds in a city based game or sanctimonious paladins. Those tired-to-the-point-of-exhaustion cliches are part and parcel of the "Traditional Core Game" and they make me cry a little inside.
It's your game and you can allow or disallow anything you like but I've found that by working with players to build their characters I lessen my workload by building in plot hooks that I can use.
Of course, YMMV.
SM
Yeah see, more of what I don't want at my table.
(P.S. For "ratfolk done right" read Mouse Guard and Redwall. Thinking of doing an all ratfolk campaign now.)
Mouse Guard and Redwall. Classic FURRY stuff-- in case you were oblivious to that fact.
On a side note, Ewoks are totally lame :)
They were the first sign that George Lucas is nuts, especially since they were supposed to be Wookies.
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Well, the artwork surely does not help in selling the race to the average male guy. IMO, of course.Makes sense, since we want to appeal to more players than simply to average male guys.Hm, yeah. I meant of course the average gamer "that guy". ^^
Maybe I'm just missing how male catfolk look like. But if they look anything like the females, I'll take a pass on playing one, even if they make excellent Ninjas and Sorcerers.
Now see-- this is the way to poke a little fun at things without being totally insulting.
Thank you for keeping it within, rather than without, the lines of civility and respect.
On a side note, Ewoks are totally lame :)
Until they eat you :p
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I agree with this 100%. Especially when the Dragon Empires Primer includes the kitsune which is, gasp, another "animal-headed humanoid with little to no lore."I know that if you told me, personally, that I could play a kitsune or a ratfolk (which currently has the same amount of in-world lore, if not less) but not a catfolk, I'd be annoyed (though to be perfectly honest, I find the kitsune far more fascinating than the catfolk in the first place).
The one thing I do have to give (reasonable) defenders of Kitsune but not catfolk, is that in the "real world", Kitsune have a very long 'history' (lots of stories and lore about them) in Japanese Mythology. Catfolk are a fictional creation... although, as others have already pointed out-- they have a long and colorful history in Anime, there's 'Cats' (the Musical, and the T.S. Eliot poems the musical was based on), the Kilrathi, the Chanur, and more than a few other examples scattered throughout fiction (outside of what non-Furries consider 'Furry').
Since we pull so much else in the game straight out of fiction without requiring mythological roots to back it up, I still don't see a problem with catfolk because they lack the legendary roots that Kitsune have (particularly since Kitsune in Japanese mythology are a lot different from the way they are portrayed in PF-- then again, Kitsune in the mythology probably wouldn't make good PC's, game balance would be thrown off).
Kitsune could work like Half-Celestial/Half-Fiend, gaining racial abilities as they level up, but then, they might not be as balanced as they should.
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Just for the record, Watership Down wasn't anthropomorphic rabbits. It was about rabbits.
Different genres.Dogs aren't dangerous!
Anthropomorphic doesn't mean animalhead-humanbody. (well, maybe it does now, thanks to the internets..)
I meant it by its literal definition, as having human characteristics. Like thinking. And telling stories. Etc. The 'anthropomorphic' mind of the Rabbits is what's so fascinating of the book, not their physical attributes.. because yes.. physically, they're just bunnies.
That illustrates my problem with Catfolk. They're literally nothing more than every other cat-headed person out there thats ever been invented. Physically, they're completely uninteresting. Give me some reason to be intrigued. "OMG human with cat head!" just doesn't do it.
Like Bast?
Yeah, totally boring egyptian mythology. pffft.
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Finn K overreacted. Drastically. But he overreacted against someone who can't/won't acknowledge that being a furry fan isn't a sexual fetish. Which, inherently, it isn't. A fan of anthropomorphic artwork no more inherently fetishizes their interest than Star Trek fans inherently fetishize Vulcans and Klingons. That doesn't excuse how over the top he went with it but it also doesn't mean he didn't have a legit concern to address.** spoiler omitted **...
Thank you for saying this much more reasonably and more clearly than I did, and my apologies to you as well as to the rest of the board for over-reacting.
Point to make to the rest of you though-- I do not know why it is that some people seem to think it's okay to treat Furries as if they exist in a "free-fire zone" where they can be as demeaning, insulting, and abusive to Furries and the ideas of Furry Fandom as they want to be-- anywhere, anytime, no other reason necessary than that Furries or a vaguely furry-related subject came up.
Maybe I'm a little too sensitive-- but I'm straight, male, don't have any particular fetishes (though I know people who do); so I don't fit most of the stereotypes-- yet I've been on the receiving end of way too many attacks BECAUSE I'm a Furry Fan and I haven't kept it completely sealed away in a compartmentalized, closeted separate space in my life (and I don't see why I, or anyone else, should have to do that)(I've also played catfolk in D&D, who weren't at all sexualized-- wasn't why I made the character a catfolk, and wasn't what he did in the game)... I think if ya'll "walked a few miles in my shoes", you'd understand why I'm just not feeling like I should hold my tongue when I see more insults and attacks headed my way. That, and PTSD issues from military service in war-zones, means I'm a little touchy and aggressive sometimes when I feel like I'm being insulted or attacked, so I have a tendency to over-react-- hope most of you who have been following this thread can understand that and forgive me for the over-reaction. I do still think the post I was responding to most directly was insulting, but I should have handled it a little better.
No offense but this is the kind of thing that has me weary of catfolk. I honestly really like how Paizo hasn't modeled their catfolk off of any one species of cat, because doing so is venturing into furry territory. I like them being humanoids with generic and diverse feline features, makes them more of a distinct species.Clearly your a racist . . . I smell werewolf or perhaps a cowardly ratling;)
Well depending on how much work you want to devote to the fluff or force the PC to come up with, I have always felt there are two ways to go with felines.
"Big Cat"
This is more complex. In this model each clan or racial variant is modeled after a species of big cat. The noble warriors of the lion clan, tiger clan wise and sirene, bobcat tricksters, sabre toothed barbaric tribes and so on."House Cat"
This is a far more simple model. Basically catfolk are very diverse in how they look and outlook. Pic a few cat like traits and they can plop in anywhere you want.
The furryocalypse, it has begun.
No surprise from paizo. They will add any trendy sort of thing to get new players. The catfolk allow them to appeal to female players mostly, or fans of furry across the sexes. Whether it really makes sense with the world and the setting to allow cat-people be more a part of it, or not.
Now, I don't have problems with more non-humans. I add a number of settled monster groups from the monster manuals and such, into the fringes of countries, and into the wild lands. Non-werewolf lycanthrope communities, mongrelmen, manscorpions, troll tribesmen, turtle-folk, lizardmen of multiple varieties. It is all good to make it feel like fantasy, to add the unknown, the unusual and have the players interact with these non-humans and non-standard races. Catfolk though? That is not as impressive. Is paizo trying to copy the Elder Scrolls?
Fantasy in a common medium now has catfolk, let's add catfolk!
I agree with this 100%. Especially when the Dragon Empires Primer includes the kitsune which is, gasp, another "animal-headed humanoid with little to no lore."I know that if you told me, personally, that I could play a kitsune or a ratfolk (which currently has the same amount of in-world lore, if not less) but not a catfolk, I'd be annoyed (though to be perfectly honest, I find the kitsune far more fascinating than the catfolk in the first place).
The one thing I do have to give (reasonable) defenders of Kitsune but not catfolk, is that in the "real world", Kitsune have a very long 'history' (lots of stories and lore about them) in Japanese Mythology. Catfolk are a fictional creation... although, as others have already pointed out-- they have a long and colorful history in Anime, there's 'Cats' (the Musical, and the T.S. Eliot poems the musical was based on), the Kilrathi, the Chanur, and more than a few other examples scattered throughout fiction (outside of what non-Furries consider 'Furry').
Since we pull so much else in the game straight out of fiction without requiring mythological roots to back it up, I still don't see a problem with catfolk because they lack the legendary roots that Kitsune have (particularly since Kitsune in Japanese mythology are a lot different from the way they are portrayed in PF-- then again, Kitsune in the mythology probably wouldn't make good PC's, game balance would be thrown off).
Why does a race have to have a real world analogy? It is a fantasy game, hell the more choices the better.
A lot of people like Anthromorphs and play them quite well.
As far as the internet is concerned, furry = porn. I have never been able to look up catfolk, ratfolk, or any other kind of furry folk without being directed towards nude art or outright pornography. Makes finding decent character portraits extremely frustrating.Deviantart and in particular this author, has images of animal people that you can use.
On Deviant Art, there are several excellent images by Vshen: Tygra, Cheetara 1, Cheetara 2, Panthro 1, and Panthro 2. And these by Dave Rapoza: Lion-O 1, Lion-O 2, and Cheetara.
Please reference your artists as you use their images. That's all we ask.
The more the better, until bloat occurs (THIS IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE!).
With new core races, they have got to be balanced, and have their own niche and small bonuses so that they don't push out other concepts. If crabmen became a new base race, and had half orc stats and a little bit more, that pushes the half orcs back out of the picture. Orcs, represent!
If better than the base races, the ECL also has to be properly adjusted. Something which doesn't always get done properly. It is part of being the dm, to look over new races to ensure it is correct and balanced if you break from the core of human-elf-dwarf-gnome-halfling and expand outwards to crabmen or catfolk or whatever.
I'd actually like to see an editing of all the races. Smaller bonuses but more of them, and, each race with serious penalties in a very specific area. You know, weaknesses. Remember those? Rather than just stack-stack-stacking (referring to more being given to races, and more to classes).
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Since we pull so much else in the game straight out of fiction without requiring mythological roots to back it up, I still don't see a problem with catfolk because they lack the legendary roots that Kitsune have (particularly since Kitsune in Japanese mythology are a lot different from the way they are portrayed in PF-- then again, Kitsune in the mythology probably wouldn't make good PC's, game balance would be thrown off).
Why does a race have to have a real world analogy? It is a fantasy game, hell the more choices the better.
A lot of people like Anthromorphs and play them quite well.
I agree with you. I was just acknowledging that there are people who like games that are rooted entirely in mythology and ancient legends and make their arguments for inclusion or exclusion of elements based on that. I should have phrased that a little better though... how about if I said it this way, because this is an opinion I'll stand by:
Even though catfolk don't have mythological roots, I still think they're an excellent part of the game; and they do have extended roots in multiple genres of modern fiction (Anime, SF, Fantasy, etc)-- which should be justification enough even in games that do not allow completely original concepts/character ideas not seen in popular fiction or mythology.
As far as the internet is concerned, furry = porn. I have never been able to look up catfolk, ratfolk, or any other kind of furry folk without being directed towards nude art or outright pornography. Makes finding decent character portraits extremely frustrating.Deviantart and in particular this author, has images of animal people that you can use.On Deviant Art, there are several excellent images by Vshen: Tygra, Cheetara 1, Cheetara 2, Panthro 1, and Panthro 2. And these by Dave Rapoza: Lion-O 1, Lion-O 2, and Cheetara.
Fetish material for sure, even when not-nude. Yep, can't take paizo's catfolk decision seriously. Such a bad move.
Yeah; because they need to take everything out of the game that somebody somewhere made porn out of.
I am sure furry porn is not at all representative, of catfolk you will see online.
Fetish material for sure, even when not-nude. Yep, can't take paizo's catfolk decision seriously. Such a bad move.On Deviant Art, there are several excellent images by Vshen: Tygra, Cheetara 1, Cheetara 2, Panthro 1, and Panthro 2. And these by Dave Rapoza: Lion-O 1, Lion-O 2, and Cheetara.
Deviantart and in particular this author, has images of animal people that you can use.
Wait, what?! How is any of those images considered "fetish material"? If you don't want catfolk or similiar races in your campaign, that's fine. But please don't label everyone that does a fetishist.
Not that there's anything wrong with fetishes... just not at the Pathfinder gaming table.
So we can only play as a race that someone didn't make a porn about...dang I hate half-orcs;)
I like catfolk there one of my favorite races. If were going to get rid of something then get rid of orcs/half-orcs since the d@d version has nothing to do with the mythical version who were big/boar like humaniods. Also the d@d versions of kobolds, gnolls, drow, halflings, etc. there are plenty of races in d@d that have nothing to do with the mythical versions.
Wait, what?! How is any of those images considered "fetish material"?Fetish material for sure, even when not-nude. Yep, can't take paizo's catfolk decision seriously. Such a bad move.On Deviant Art, there are several excellent images by Vshen: Tygra, Cheetara 1, Cheetara 2, Panthro 1, and Panthro 2. And these by Dave Rapoza: Lion-O 1, Lion-O 2, and Cheetara.
Deviantart and in particular this author, has images of animal people that you can use.
Methinks the Loyalist doth protest too much.
I agree with this 100%. Especially when the Dragon Empires Primer includes the kitsune which is, gasp, another "animal-headed humanoid with little to no lore."I know that if you told me, personally, that I could play a kitsune or a ratfolk (which currently has the same amount of in-world lore, if not less) but not a catfolk, I'd be annoyed (though to be perfectly honest, I find the kitsune far more fascinating than the catfolk in the first place).
The one thing I do have to give (reasonable) defenders of Kitsune but not catfolk, is that in the "real world", Kitsune have a very long 'history' (lots of stories and lore about them) in Japanese Mythology. Catfolk are a fictional creation... although, as others have already pointed out-- they have a long and colorful history in Anime, there's 'Cats' (the Musical, and the T.S. Eliot poems the musical was based on), the Kilrathi, the Chanur, and more than a few other examples scattered throughout fiction (outside of what non-Furries consider 'Furry').
Since we pull so much else in the game straight out of fiction without requiring mythological roots to back it up, I still don't see a problem with catfolk because they lack the legendary roots that Kitsune have (particularly since Kitsune in Japanese mythology are a lot different from the way they are portrayed in PF-- then again, Kitsune in the mythology probably wouldn't make good PC's, game balance would be thrown off).
Why does a race have to have a real world analogy? It is a fantasy game, hell the more choices the better.
A lot of people like Anthromorphs and play them quite well.
>Playing anthromorphs
>Doing anything wellPick one.
Why? You seem to think that the two are exclusive, maybe in your limited , biased, narrow mind they might be.
The person in my group playing the Catfolk rogue plays it no different than the person playing his Human Alchemist. As a rogue the catfolk player fills the role of party face and secondary melee damage. Nothing cutsie just good roleplaying.
Methinks the Loyalist doth protest too much.Wait, what?! How is any of those images considered "fetish material"?Fetish material for sure, even when not-nude. Yep, can't take paizo's catfolk decision seriously. Such a bad move.On Deviant Art, there are several excellent images by Vshen: Tygra, Cheetara 1, Cheetara 2, Panthro 1, and Panthro 2. And these by Dave Rapoza: Lion-O 1, Lion-O 2, and Cheetara.
Deviantart and in particular this author, has images of animal people that you can use.
Ha ha, no furry-daddy nooooo!
And that was the first time I died.
The problem with catfolk, is that it is so firmly (choose another word) established as fetish material prior to paizo taking it on board and making it a new race. Now they could make this a joke and run with it, by giving the catfolk the special ability "yiff".
If they want to borrow from popular fetishes, that is fine then, but I want my Goatse men. I want it as canon tomorrow!
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So we can only play as a race that someone didn't make a porn about...dang I hate half-orcs;)Don't worry, half-orcs are banned too.
Quick, someone go to the Homebrew "Sick of Humans" thread and tell them they got their wish. There shall be no humans ever, any more. From now on it's Thrikreen or bust!
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So we can only play as a race that someone didn't make a porn about...
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.So thanks to rule 34, we cannot play the game at all?
Methinks the Loyalist doth protest too much.Wait, what?! How is any of those images considered "fetish material"?Fetish material for sure, even when not-nude. Yep, can't take paizo's catfolk decision seriously. Such a bad move.On Deviant Art, there are several excellent images by Vshen: Tygra, Cheetara 1, Cheetara 2, Panthro 1, and Panthro 2. And these by Dave Rapoza: Lion-O 1, Lion-O 2, and Cheetara.
Deviantart and in particular this author, has images of animal people that you can use.Ha ha, no furry-daddy nooooo!
And that was the first time I died.
The problem with catfolk, is that it is so firmly (choose another word) established as fetish material prior to paizo taking it on board and making it a new race. Now they could make this a joke and run with it, by giving the catfolk the special ability "yiff".
If they want to borrow from popular fetishes, that is fine then, but I want my Goatse men. I want it as canon tomorrow!
Are you trying to be witty or simply trolling?
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Creative Director
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Fetish material for sure, even when not-nude. Yep, can't take paizo's catfolk decision seriously. Such a bad move.
Fortunately, you don't have to. Because, obviously, the catfolk were not created for you.
We put catfolk into the Bestiary for pretty much one reason—because they were far and above the MOST requested zero HD race on these boards. The fact that there are cat people in the Elder Scrolls, or cat people in various other incarnations of D&D, is nothing more than other companies reacting to the same simple fact that, whether or not any one person likes the idea of a cat humanoid race... it IS a very popular one.
If you don't like catfolk, they're easy enough to ignore in games you run.
Doesn't mean it was a bad idea to put them into the Bestiary, though.
Methinks the Loyalist doth protest too much.
He's always like that. Personally, I think he's hard-tsundere. Either that or he's just using the internet to act in a manner unbefitting an adult. Whatever his problem is, he's not solving it by coming to a board that talks exclusively about what he doesn't like. That's like hating furries, then going to a furry board, just to talk crap to them.
The best response you can have to him is to ignore him.
Well, since Larry Niven routinely puts the kybosh on k'zinti image/story porn,......
HUZZAH FOR K'ZINTI!!!