Kitsune and Tengu have more lore/weight in the setting that "cat head, human body, *lick* :3 "Besides, I've held to my policy of "if it ain't core/Dragon Empires, then no" for awhile, I'm not gonna break now because the moment I do is when people start asking to play half-dragons again.
I feel ya on the Tengu and Kitsune... there's plenty of eastern myth and lore that they're based on to draw upon even if paizo's stuff isn't as deep.
I do gotta snipe a bit tho.. what about those snakeheaded humans :D
See it's a fine line, Nagaji aren't so much snakeheaded humans, they're humanoids with vaguely serpentine features, and there's more to them than "snaaaaake people, snaaaaaaaaaaaaaake people, look like snake, talk like people." They have lore, they have a purpose and a role in the setting. Same with Kitsune and Tengu.
Catfolk? They're literally just people that look like cats. Their NAME is catfolk; is that really what they call themselves? See that's what bothers me.
Change the name. Work with your player to add a small bit of cool lore.
Just a little bit of work really. Shouldn't be that hard.
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That's what humans would call them most probably. I doubt that Elf is Elf in Elven, or that Dwarf is Dwarf in Dwarven. Same goes for Catfolk.
if your player has said they aren't going to act in such a manner that you find repulsive, then why still bar them? Seems silly and admittedly unfair to them if they've agreed to have a more fleshed out background.Finn K's little tirade reminded me why I don't allow "animal head, human body, no lore" races. Told my player after further consideration the answer was no, absolutely not, and as always the policy re: races is "core and dragon empires only."So wait a Catfolk is not okay but a Fox person, a bird person (both wou unlike the catfolk literally are animal headed races) but a catfolk is a no-no. I mean at the end of the day it is your choice but it seems somewhat erratic to meKitsune and Tengu have more lore/weight in the setting that "cat head, human body, *lick* :3 "
Besides, I've held to my policy of "if it ain't core/Dragon Empires, then no" for awhile, I'm not gonna break now because the moment I do is when people start asking to play half-dragons again.
Because I'm the DM, and my word is law, and furries can yiff in hell. /discussion.
The official, PC reason? Another player wanted to be a tiefling a few months back and I said no. Just being fair.
Wow... I'm not a furry and even I found that offensive...
If I was in your campaign and I read these forumns I would be rolling up a high charisma rogue Kitsune that likes to drink and to hit on the ladies.
1- Drinking contests with any dwarf check.
2- Pickpoket clepto check.
3- Skirt lifting fox tail check.
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if your player has said they aren't going to act in such a manner that you find repulsive, then why still bar them? Seems silly and admittedly unfair to them if they've agreed to have a more fleshed out background.Finn K's little tirade reminded me why I don't allow "animal head, human body, no lore" races. Told my player after further consideration the answer was no, absolutely not, and as always the policy re: races is "core and dragon empires only."So wait a Catfolk is not okay but a Fox person, a bird person (both wou unlike the catfolk literally are animal headed races) but a catfolk is a no-no. I mean at the end of the day it is your choice but it seems somewhat erratic to meKitsune and Tengu have more lore/weight in the setting that "cat head, human body, *lick* :3 "
Besides, I've held to my policy of "if it ain't core/Dragon Empires, then no" for awhile, I'm not gonna break now because the moment I do is when people start asking to play half-dragons again.
Because I'm the DM, and my word is law, and furries can yiff in hell. /discussion.
The official, PC reason? Another player wanted to be a tiefling a few months back and I said no. Just being fair.
So what your basically saying is that you were always going to say no anyway therefore making this all something of a waste of everyones time?
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Just for the record, Watership Down wasn't anthropomorphic rabbits. It was about rabbits.
Different genres.Dogs aren't dangerous!
Anthropomorphic doesn't mean animalhead-humanbody. (well, maybe it does now, thanks to the internets..)
I meant it by its literal definition, as having human characteristics. Like thinking. And telling stories. Etc. The 'anthropomorphic' mind of the Rabbits is what's so fascinating of the book, not their physical attributes.. because yes.. physically, they're just bunnies.
That illustrates my problem with Catfolk. They're literally nothing more than every other cat-headed person out there thats ever been invented. Physically, they're completely uninteresting. Give me some reason to be intrigued. "OMG human with cat head!" just doesn't do it.
Yeah... I almost miss the Paladin threads now...
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No I was seriously considering letting her play a catfolk, against my better judgment, and then Finn K shows up with the melodramatic force of 1000 MTV bisexuals crammed into a single Hot Topic and I remember why my policy on catfolk has always been "no. Not only no, but hell no."So what your basically saying is that you were always going to say no anyway therefore making this all something of a waste of everyones time?if your player has said they aren't going to act in such a manner that you find repulsive, then why still bar them? Seems silly and admittedly unfair to them if they've agreed to have a more fleshed out background.Finn K's little tirade reminded me why I don't allow "animal head, human body, no lore" races. Told my player after further consideration the answer was no, absolutely not, and as always the policy re: races is "core and dragon empires only."So wait a Catfolk is not okay but a Fox person, a bird person (both wou unlike the catfolk literally are animal headed races) but a catfolk is a no-no. I mean at the end of the day it is your choice but it seems somewhat erratic to meKitsune and Tengu have more lore/weight in the setting that "cat head, human body, *lick* :3 "
Besides, I've held to my policy of "if it ain't core/Dragon Empires, then no" for awhile, I'm not gonna break now because the moment I do is when people start asking to play half-dragons again.
Because I'm the DM, and my word is law, and furries can yiff in hell. /discussion.
The official, PC reason? Another player wanted to be a tiefling a few months back and I said no. Just being fair.
No still sounds like you really werent ever going to consider it but were waiting for someone/anyone to reinforce your view point. Like I said at the end of the day your choice.
I am amazed at those who have such uninhibited creativity sometimes but the inability to adapt at other times.
Your problem doesn't actually exist.
I didn't read the entire 100 posts, but I hope someone mentioned that races outside the CRB are not intended for player use. It requires your blessing as a GM to be allowed, and many game assumptions go right out the window if you say yes.
The block in the bestiary that says "<race> as Characters" is referring to non-player characters. This has been confirmed by Paizo developers in no uncertain terms. Drow Nobles have a "characters" block because they usually gain power as character levels, NOT because they are intended for players to use. Same for Catfolk.
If you don't like catfolk, you have recourse to simply tell the player that they are not a PC race. Nothing in any Bestiary is.
Now, when the Advanced Race Guide is released, there will probably be a player-race version of catfolk there. On the one hand, this undermines your authority as a GM unless you have a blanket policy of line-item veto on new books (I do). On the other hand, it will be a more player-acceptable writeup of the race, which should keep things balanced if your allow it.
Good luck.
Creative Director
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James! It's the weekend! Stop working! :)No such thing as weekends when snow wreaks havoc!How many new races in Distant Worlds.
O_O How. Many?
That's a James Sutter Question.
And since I just finished the "salaried portion of my working weekend" and am transitioning to my "freelance portion of my working weekend" I'll dodge the question entirely, especially since it's an entirely-off-topic question in the first place.
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Creative Director
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Your problem doesn't actually exist.
I didn't read the entire 100 posts, but I hope someone mentioned that races outside the CRB are not intended for player use. It requires your blessing as a GM to be allowed, and many game assumptions go right out the window if you say yes.
The block in the bestiary that says "<race> as Characters" is referring to non-player characters. This has been confirmed by Paizo developers in no uncertain terms. Drow Nobles have a "characters" block because they usually gain power as character levels, NOT because they are intended for players to use. Same for Catfolk.
If you don't like catfolk, you have recourse to simply tell the player that they are not a PC race. Nothing in any Bestiary is.
Now, when the Advanced Race Guide is released, there will probably be a player-race version of catfolk there. On the one hand, this undermines your authority as a GM unless you have a blanket policy of line-item veto on new books (I do). On the other hand, it will be a more player-acceptable writeup of the race, which should keep things balanced if your allow it.
Good luck.
Actually... while the zero-HD races in the Bestiary aren't really there to be player choices... the Advanced Race Guide isn't going to CHANGE these races. They'll still have the exact same powers. There'll be a bit more guidance regarding how more- or less-powerful-than-humans races work when you mix them with core races... but in the end, absent that advice, a player using a catfolk from Bestiary 3 will have the same basic stats as one from Advanced Race Guide.
Neither is intended to undermine GM authority.
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"Growltiger was a Bravo Cat who travelled on a barge
In fact he was the roughest cat that ever roamed at large
From Gravesend up to Oxford he pursued his evil aims
Rejoicing in his title of The Terror of the Thames
His manners and appearance did not calculate to please
His coat was torn and seedy, he was baggy at the knees
One ear was somewhat missing, no need to tell you why
And he scowled upon a hostile world from one forbidding eye"
t s eliot
just sayin......it's possible to make a catfolk into a dude's dude.
not that there's anything wrong with what anybody else wants to do.
Cats'll f*@~ you up, dude.
They don't play.
No I was seriously considering letting her play a catfolk, against my better judgment, and then Finn K shows up with the melodramatic force of 1000 MTV bisexuals crammed into a single Hot Topic and I remember why my policy on catfolk has always been "no. Not only no, but hell no."So what your basically saying is that you were always going to say no anyway therefore making this all something of a waste of everyones time?if your player has said they aren't going to act in such a manner that you find repulsive, then why still bar them? Seems silly and admittedly unfair to them if they've agreed to have a more fleshed out background.Finn K's little tirade reminded me why I don't allow "animal head, human body, no lore" races. Told my player after further consideration the answer was no, absolutely not, and as always the policy re: races is "core and dragon empires only."So wait a Catfolk is not okay but a Fox person, a bird person (both wou unlike the catfolk literally are animal headed races) but a catfolk is a no-no. I mean at the end of the day it is your choice but it seems somewhat erratic to meKitsune and Tengu have more lore/weight in the setting that "cat head, human body, *lick* :3 "
Besides, I've held to my policy of "if it ain't core/Dragon Empires, then no" for awhile, I'm not gonna break now because the moment I do is when people start asking to play half-dragons again.
Because I'm the DM, and my word is law, and furries can yiff in hell. /discussion.
The official, PC reason? Another player wanted to be a tiefling a few months back and I said no. Just being fair.
I feel sorry for your players. You never even considered letting her play this character. You had your mind made up because of nothing more than furry hate. Your yiff in hell statement cemented it. I hope she reads these posts and takes my advice in finding another game group.
"Growltiger was a Bravo Cat who travelled on a barge
In fact he was the roughest cat that ever roamed at large
From Gravesend up to Oxford he pursued his evil aims
Rejoicing in his title of The Terror of the ThamesHis manners and appearance did not calculate to please
His coat was torn and seedy, he was baggy at the knees
One ear was somewhat missing, no need to tell you why
And he scowled upon a hostile world from one forbidding eye"t s eliot
just sayin......it's possible to make a catfolk into a dude's dude.
not that there's anything wrong with what anybody else wants to do.
Spanky, what are you doing trying to bring class into this arguement!?! This is all about GYAARRRR!!!
Of course you have also made me want to make a race based off of the Kilrathi so I can run a game where I can use the Cult of Sivar as villians.
Well, the artwork surely does not help in selling the race to the average male guy. IMO, of course.Makes sense, since we want to appeal to more players than simply to average male guys.
Hm, yeah. I meant of course the average gamer "that guy". ^^
Maybe I'm just missing how male catfolk look like. But if they look anything like the females, I'll take a pass on playing one, even if they make excellent Ninjas and Sorcerers.
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Facebooked.thus this was bornThread winner.
or better yet, FOR THE GLORY OF GOLARION
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or better yet, FOR THE GLORY OF GOLARIONFacebooked.thus this was bornThread winner.
WHAT HATH FANTASY WROUGHT?!
To add to Squak's dire works, the classic cat meme:
Well, the artwork surely does not help in selling the race to the average male guy. IMO, of course.Makes sense, since we want to appeal to more players than simply to average male guys.Hm, yeah. I meant of course the average gamer "that guy". ^^
Maybe I'm just missing how male catfolk look like. But if they look anything like the females, I'll take a pass on playing one, even if they make excellent Ninjas and Sorcerers.
Like humans cats have varied colors and shapes, also how an artist depicts a race does not mean it is so for every version of the race or monster.
If you want look up the look of the Litorans that is just as valid a Catfolk look as the one in the Bestiary 3.
Hell the look of the current Thundercats cartoon would be an awesome look for your world's catfolk.
Tigra from Marvel Comics is also an excellent example of what Catfolk can look like.
All good examples of how the race can look.
Reepicheep!
If you can immagine a ratfolk campaign not possibly running into problems I find it hard to believe you have the lack of immagination that catfolk can only cause problems. Especially when you point out that you find dwarves played in a certain way bad or halflings played in a certain way bad.
I agree with this 100%. Especially when the Dragon Empires Primer includes the kitsune which is, gasp, another "animal-headed humanoid with little to no lore."
I know that if you told me, personally, that I could play a kitsune or a ratfolk (which currently has the same amount of in-world lore, if not less) but not a catfolk, I'd be annoyed (though to be perfectly honest, I find the kitsune far more fascinating than the catfolk in the first place).
Like humans cats have varied colors and shapes, also how an artist depicts a race does not mean it is so for every version of the race or monster.
You see, this is exactly the same logic that occasionally gets used on me whenever I complain about the art in Dreamscarred Press's psionic books.
I LOATHE the art in that book. Hate it with the passion of a star going supernova. Occasionally, people will say to me "just because this is how that one artist depicts X doesn't mean that's how all of them look." The problem with that line of thinking is that in my cases, the artist's rendition can be a player's first exposure to a concept. When that picture doesn't inspire you, then it becomes very difficult to make your own concepts because you have little to work off of.
Art is usually very subjective, however. Just because one person doesn't like it doesn't mean that everyone will hate it and I'm sure there are people who are inspired by this artwork. I am not. (Though to be perfectly honest, I don't think I have ever heard ANYONE say anything nice about the Psionics Unleashed artwork).
Like humans cats have varied colors and shapes, also how an artist depicts a race does not mean it is so for every version of the race or monster.
If you want look up the look of the Litorans that is just as valid a Catfolk look as the one in the Bestiary 3.
Hell the look of the current Thundercats cartoon would be an awesome look for your world's catfolk.
Tigra from Marvel Comics is also an excellent example of what Catfolk can look like.
All good examples of how the race can look.
Well, my initial post was about the look chosen in the Bestiary 3 and how it makes the whole race look like it was made to very primarily sell to "kawaii-desu" girls. ;)
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All this internet-generated furry stuff...I don't get it. It seems sometime between 2000 and 2009, the players of the genre of gaming I enjoy suddenly became fearful of what the other players next to them considered fun to play. Is the 'I wanna play a catfolk' any worse than 'I wanna play Natas Deville the OH SO EEEEEVUHL powermad assassin'? And, even more than that...do so many people actually sit around a game table and wonder if what the person next to them is playing is a sexual fetish?! That's about the -last- thing I want to think about during a game. Groupthink, it's not a good thing...
Fact is, I know that since catfolk have no lore all she wants is to look like a cat and... that's it. She might say otherwise, but the proof is in the pudding. I'm saying no.
So instead of asking your player to generate some quality lore, you'll just assume she's a game-disturber (despite your own statement that the character seemed fine to you early on) because someone who wasn't her made a post that you didn't like on a messageboard? Really?
Maybe I'm just too old. But I don't think that's the problem.
And Cheapy...I have to ask, what's the deal with halflings? I've never had a problem with a halfling's (or a kender's, for that matter) player before (although I can at least see where a kender could be problematic, fwiw).
I wish they had made ratfolk medium sized. A ratfolk ninja based off of the Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni MTG card would be so fun.
Some people really hate cat like races for some reason. I don't really see the same level of hostility directed at gnolls, lizard men, or any other human/animal hybrid people. Of course some people just refuse to play races that are size small or less. I will probably never get to run or be a part of an all goblin campaign at this rate.
Total dwarf fetish. I like my women like I like my beer stout and bitter. Also bearded ladies.
Well, my initial post was about the look chosen in the Bestiary 3 and how it makes the whole race look like it was made to very primarily sell to "kawaii-desu" girls. ;)Like humans cats have varied colors and shapes, also how an artist depicts a race does not mean it is so for every version of the race or monster.
If you want look up the look of the Litorans that is just as valid a Catfolk look as the one in the Bestiary 3.
Hell the look of the current Thundercats cartoon would be an awesome look for your world's catfolk.
Tigra from Marvel Comics is also an excellent example of what Catfolk can look like.
All good examples of how the race can look.
And what exactly is the problem with that? I feel that the more people you can get interested in playing Pathfinder the better. I like the fact that Paizo often thinks ahead and offers material to people that want something beyond a Male Dominated Lord of the Rings style fantasy role-playing game.
And what exactly is the problem with that? I feel that the more people you can get interested in playing Pathfinder the better. I like the fact that Paizo often thinks ahead and offers material to people that want something beyond a Male Dominated Lord of the Rings style fantasy role-playing game.Well, my initial post was about the look chosen in the Bestiary 3 and how it makes the whole race look like it was made to very primarily sell to "kawaii-desu" girls. ;)Like humans cats have varied colors and shapes, also how an artist depicts a race does not mean it is so for every version of the race or monster.
If you want look up the look of the Litorans that is just as valid a Catfolk look as the one in the Bestiary 3.
Hell the look of the current Thundercats cartoon would be an awesome look for your world's catfolk.
Tigra from Marvel Comics is also an excellent example of what Catfolk can look like.
All good examples of how the race can look.
There is no problem. I just pointed out ( awkwardly it seems, or some people just love to get offended ) that the race as presented by its depiction in the published artwork of Bestiary 3 would probably not appeal to a large number of straight males. It's totally fine. I can see both female members of one of my gaming groups being interested in playing such a character. Can't really see it with the guys or myself.
Cue beach boys music...
i wish they all could be kawaii-desu" giiiiirrrrls....
What is that actually? I'm afraid to google.
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I happen to like the art for catfolk in B3. Average white straight male right here.
Meanwhile I think some of you folk need to read THIS.
When you tell your girl player:
"Straight white beer drinking dwarf does not need to justify his existence, but catgirl sorcerer does." You're part of the problem. Our hobbies have a real problem with gender disparity.
Well, my initial post was about the look chosen in the Bestiary 3 and how it makes the whole race look like it was made to very primarily sell to "kawaii-desu" girls. ;)
I took you intial post as only gay guy and girls would play the race. Personally the artwork isn't bad in my opinion, not the 2nd Ed art work by Tony Di'Terrizi (or however you spell hi last name), but not like what hobgoblins, bugbears, and trolls are for me in PF. I dislike the artwork on those three personally (excluding the troll on the Bestiary cover) but that's my personal taste and it won't stop me from using them.
Here's what you do:
Have other catfolk NPCs in your game. Have them be normal and sane people according to whatever their culture is. Then if the player's catfolk is a nutcase, he/she can be ostracised for being 'weeaboo' or whatever.
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You know what? Fine. I'll let her be a catfolk. Moment the f$+$~*ry starts though she's getting swarmed by Akatas.
A lot can be said by just communicating with your player. Since you're GMing, that's something you'll be doing anyways. Talk with her and explain the reservations you have about both the lack of lore and the personality of said cat folk. A quick half hour of communication between the two of you should honestly put your fears aside. I did something similar with a player that made a druid a little too obsessed with 'shinies'. She toned it down a bit and everyone's happy.
Funny you mention akata, actually, since that's my avatar and it actually means 'wandering cat' in Africa. Though, I also found out it can be a derogatory term from a Nigerian friend... but, hey, you can't win them all I suppose.
I took you intial post as only gay guy and girls would play the race.
I probably overemphasized that part. But, yeah, that's what my first impression of the artwork pretty much was. According to the artwork. The race could probably be sold to straight guys pretty easily with the right piece of art, too. Thundercats never really got out of vogue with us nerds, did it? :p
Personally the artwork isn't bad in my opinion,
Never said that the artwork is bad, only that it sells the race in a very certain way.