Multiclassing in PFO


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I guess I just have a preference to pre WoTC DnD, back when Gygax was kingmaker. :) No one seems to have any respect for the man anymore.

The game was better back then. More difficult to learn perhaps, but far more entertaining than the munchkin versions it's been evolving into. I just don't find it fun to play games I can't lose. It's a false reward system, and my ego simply isn't that fragile that I need that protection. But I guess they have to do what they think will draw the most players in, and I can agree that I'm likely in a minority.


The multiclassing system sounds somewhat like Star Wars SAGA,
in that you are progressing skill/feat trees that have pre-reqs (fed by each class),
so you are dealing with ability tiers, not that much different from PRPG tabletop...

About capstones, that's great to have, but I suggest also having sub-capstones,
5th, 10th, 15th level abilities that reward staying HEAVY in one particular class,
but that will be seen earlier in the game, and that can still be experienced if you multiclass SOMEWHAT.
as in the tabletop PRPG game, 20th level capstones are irrelevant to anybody not at 20th level.
...this is pretty much how the tabletop PRPG classes are designed, although they may not all gain abilities at X (5th, or whatever),
but whenever most appropriate to them,
meaning each class might have slightly different 'optimum switch points', but the balance works very well over-all.

how feats/gear/spells interact with class abilities is also crucial here IMHO.
(the tabletop game has feats/gear/spells that are only relevant if you have X class ability, e.g. weapon training,
so if you don't gain that ability because of multiclassing or alternate class archetype, you don't get (optimal) usage out of that thing)
A Barbarian/Fighter multiclass may get deep enough in Barb that they can use certain Barb/centric items or Feats, but that is resources that they can't use towards Fighter/centric stuff that they could qualify for with their Fighter levels.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Probitas wrote:

I guess I just have a preference to pre WoTC DnD, back when Gygax was kingmaker. :) No one seems to have any respect for the man anymore.

The game was better back then. More difficult to learn perhaps, but far more entertaining than the munchkin versions it's been evolving into. I just don't find it fun to play games I can't lose. It's a false reward system, and my ego simply isn't that fragile that I need that protection. But I guess they have to do what they think will draw the most players in, and I can agree that I'm likely in a minority.

Yeah, I suspect that AD&D players don't generally hang around in Pathfinder-focused spaces. If I could have the crunchiness and depth of weapon-vs-armor tables, with the balance of 4th edition weapons (Everything is roughly equal, and variance between situations is greater than variance between weapons), and the ease of use of having a computer do all the math, I would want that. Complexity is important, but there is no point in having the glaive-guisairme be unique if there isn't some situation where it is noticeably better than the glaive-volgue.

Goblin Squad Member

Quandary wrote:
About capstones, that's great to have, but I suggest also having sub-capstones, 5th, 10th, 15th level abilities that reward staying HEAVY in one particular class, but that will be seen earlier in the game, and that can still be experienced if you multiclass SOMEWHAT.

Great idea! I had already proposed elsewhere that they consider capstones for multi-classing. This is a nice way to round it out even further :)


So, basically, everyone and their badger is a spellcaster?
That's sad to hear, but it seems to always end up like this in skill-based systems.
I think they should encourage following archetypes by giving special features and abilities to characters staying within certain limits or something. The capstones don't count as long as they don't disappear when a character breaks these limits.

Goblin Squad Member

Fra Antonius wrote:
So, basically, everyone and their badger is a spellcaster?

I'm confused. Multi-classing has been around in D&D for years, yet it didn't devolve into "everyone and their badger" becoming a spell caster. Why should that happen in PFO?

I actually expect to see far more single-class characters pursuing their capstones, than multi-class characters.

I guess we'll see which of us turns out to be the better prophet :)


Nihimon wrote:

I'm confused. Multi-classing has been around in D&D for years, yet it didn't devolve into "everyone and their badger" becoming a spell caster. Why should that happen in PFO?

Well, you know, D&D is not quite MMO, and powergaming is much more popular in MMO's, especially competitive MMO's with at least relatively free PvP. More tools means more versatility which means more power, and magic is a good toolkit.

Nihimon wrote:

I actually expect to see far more single-class characters pursuing their capstones, than multi-class characters.

I guess we'll see which of us turns out to be the better prophet :)

Well, I believe you're right, considering the amount of time needed to reach a capstone. And you'll be right for at least the first 3-4 years, and who knows what will the game become by this time.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Fra Antonius wrote:
So, basically, everyone and their badger is a spellcaster?

I'm confused. Multi-classing has been around in D&D for years, yet it didn't devolve into "everyone and their badger" becoming a spell caster. Why should that happen in PFO?

I actually expect to see far more single-class characters pursuing their capstones, than multi-class characters.

I guess we'll see which of us turns out to be the better prophet :)

Half right half not I would say. The biggest reason everyone dosn't have a few levels in spellcaster in P&P would be that taking 1 level of wizard at level 1 for a barbarian, means an extra 190k XP needed to get barbarian to 13th later. On the other hand in this system if you could care less about cleric capstone, putting a week or 2 into cleric, before starting barbarian towards capstone, only costs you those 2 weeks.

That being said I think it widely depends on the skill usage, armor/equipment requirements for skills etc... we know they are intending on overall power being fairly small between characters, so really it's about implimentation of what skills, how they work, when you can use them etc... that will give us any wild guesses on what common builds will be.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Fra Antonius wrote:
So, basically, everyone and their badger is a spellcaster?

I'm confused. Multi-classing has been around in D&D for years, yet it didn't devolve into "everyone and their badger" becoming a spell caster. Why should that happen in PFO?

I actually expect to see far more single-class characters pursuing their capstones, than multi-class characters.

I guess we'll see which of us turns out to be the better prophet :)

Half right half not I would say. The biggest reason everyone dosn't have a few levels in spellcaster in P&P would be that taking 1 level of wizard at level 1 for a barbarian, means an extra 190k XP needed to get barbarian to 13th later. On the other hand in this system if you could care less about cleric capstone, putting a week or 2 into cleric, before starting barbarian towards capstone, only costs you those 2 weeks.

That being said I think it widely depends on the skill usage, armor/equipment requirements for skills etc... we know they are intending on overall power being fairly small between characters, so really it's about implimentation of what skills, how they work, when you can use them etc... that will give us any wild guesses on what common builds will be.

Yeah, I think it's really too early to tell here. In other systems (including many PnP systems) there is an opportunity cost to taking a level of spell casting (or the equivalent in skill based systems). For example, taking a level of Wizard prevents you from taking a Level of Fighter because you can only have so many levels total on one character. There is also the fact that PnP systems are Human Moderated.... and many GM's are also going to require the player has some justification for advancing classes outside of thier current area of experience.... also add in the fact that many campaigns/gaming groups aren't neccesarly focused towards min/maxing abilities but more focused toward RPing, etc.

Finally, there are issues of synergy which can be effective even in skill based systems....where you may not neccesarly be able to use certain types of skills (such as spell-casting) well when you are setup to use other sets of skills (such as fighting in heavy armor)...so it may not even make sense for players to devote time to skills that don't complement each other well.

I share alot of the same concerns about Multi-Classing in PFO....but at this point, it's simply too early to tell how things will shake out...we need to know alot more of the details of how these systems will be designed to understand whether we're going to have everyone as a Multi-Class Spell Caster or not.

Lantern Lodge

The likelihood of everyone becoming a spell caster depends on how capable mundane techniques are compared to magic. Mundane in pnp is easy to work with and can be just as capable a char but in an mmo that might not be the case unless certain abilities are adjusted to put mundane and magic on even terms(such as weapons being faster but not as powerful as magic then leads some players to play fast and others to play power)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

A lot depends on how willing the designers are to make a team of varied archetypes better than a team composed entirely of clerics and druids. That will mean departing from a facet of DnD 3rd ed. and its variants.

Goblin Squad Member

As long as I can build an Eldridge Knight or Magus type character I will be extremely happy.

Goblin Squad Member

BLT wrote:
As long as I can build an Eldridge Knight or Magus type character I will be extremely happy.

Heh well this thread is now almost entirely based on dated information. Capstones no longer are canceled out longterm effects on your character, instead a perk you get while you have all skills set up.

Elderich knight or magus, will probably be in existance later in the game, odds are not in the begining of the game. (Start of EE isn't even anticipating all of the core, let alone prestige or APG classes), In addition they have mentioned something to the regard of most equipment having drawbacks to other areas, so it may take some time to get a martial caster mix. Not saying it won't happen, just probably not going to be viable without either a class added ~1 year after open enrollment, or equipment that will likely take a year to afford

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