Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Will there be some mechanism which rewards players for carrying things that aren't equipped? There's a fairly strong disincentive to do so.
Why not make the 'destroy everything that isn't looted' part be made optional, on the part of the looter?
Will some powerful items be exempt from potential destruction, and always looted? Will coinage be conserved, or will some coin be destroyed on looting?
Will there be an option for storing things you own, like a safe deposit box? Will these locations be perfectly secure, or only as secure as they are made?
When you say you can only be soulbound once, did you mean "Your soulbind cannot be changed after you set it." or "You can be soulbound to only one point at a time."?
Do you anticipate a lot of things (like marshals) being limited to NPC groups, or can a PC group found a city with most of the mechanical benefits of an NPC city?
I fully support the decision to alienate some people in order to embrace others, and I would do so even if I was one of the people who was alienated.
Goblin Squad Member
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As long as there are easily accessible ways to protect your equipment, be it rented lockers in towns, your house(you better have player housing), guild vault, and activities like crafting when you have a large amount of items in your inventory, can be done from inside safe zones 99% of the time. You'll keep me interested
I'm still against the idea of permanent loss of anything on death.
Take a look at this system:
Upon death a random selection of items in your bag are left behind.
This makes it so nothing is ever permanently removed from the game with this system. And that awesome item you just obtained has a chance to survive.
The above applies to all deaths, below applies to just unlawful deaths
Once killed you may issue a bounty of any amount of money
This allows any player to keep a small bounty on any player, a low income player will only get the support of die-hard enforcers, and a richer player will get the eye of those seeking more lucrative deals
Bounties include an option to return items
An additional reward can be tagged on if the bounty hunter returns your lost items. It is up to the player to make sure this bonus is worth enough to keep the hunter from selling the items. Smart bounty posters will offer the majority of the reward upon returning the items.
Bounties can be re-issued infinitely and at any time
The offending player is put on their victims s-list, at any time the victim can re-issue the bounty.
The offending player will be notified of their bounty, and has a chance to pay it off
This will be a Player to Player window interaction. For example lets say you target the person you unlawfully killed and type "/reparations". A trade window pops up with a place to put items and money. Once both parties agree on a payment, the offending player is removed from the victims s-list.
This gives the offender a benefit of settling, and makes it so the victim must honor a promise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh I like the idea of conditional return of a stolen item as part of a bounty...or perhaps a bonus. However, that would require items not have a chance of being destroyed...otherwise a really valuable item might be recovered but not given up...and the owner could be told it was destroyed in one of the two loots. This could also have the added effect of destroying trust in a bounty hunter...whether or not it is justified.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't get around the fact that you're flat out telling us you want this game to be a stressful experience with consequences where we get to pay you to be other people's lootable corpse.Transparency at work. Would you rather we strung you along with half-promises the hinted at the opposite only to reveal at the last minute what the actual plan is?
Just for the record, I don't think you're insane (unless you're actively involved in developing a themepark fantasy MMO with "compete with World of Warcraft" as your business plan).
RyanD
I believe Mr. Dancey said that we are the content. Sorry, Balodek, but you seem set on repeating 'I am the victim'. We are the content means that instead of grinding mindless mobs for cloth or loot or whatever maybe me and my guys wait for you and your guys to come by guarding a caravan of hard-earned resources. We are the challenge for you and visa versa. You're not someones' 'lootable corpse', hell, how about kickin' some ass? I played WOW for a long time. It's not a theme park or a virtual world. It's a wax museum.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with this post, my loyalty is with Paizo and Pathfinder. I hope you don't alienate the crowd that made the name Pathfinder what it is today.
I don't think any game developer can please everyone...and to be fair, I'm not sure "the crowd" that originally supported Pathfinder are necessarily all against a sandbox world with PVP, corpse runs, and (partial) corpse looting. No matter which direction they take, I'm grateful for the frank discussions and quick responses to our feedback. For those that play now, the world is brutal and if your GM is true to the spirit of the game, it's quite dangerous and can be difficult. I find it very satisfying when we find an item or xp is 'won', and I strive to learn from my mistakes.
I would hope the MMO follows the same..a degree of difficulty over the average MMO with a sense of danger. I want to think twice about running into a stretch of woods I know nothing about or getting close to a campfire seen in the distance. That's what makes a world like Golarion exciting, in my opinion. If I want to head out with 40 quests in my log running all over Azeroth with little fear of dying to get a set of gear everyone else knows exactly where and how to get, well, I'll go play that game. For now, PF Online sounds promising.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm really intrigued by the exclusion of items/armor that will be a part of things that are left with your husk. Keeping worn items and weapons but dropping inventory items seems like a nice way to keep the risk vs. rewards of exploring an area. As a long time player from the original Everquest, I've missed games that have death penalties that sting.
I can imagine fighting through an area or dungeon and getting "that one item" you've wanted, or just a great item you hadn't planned on. Now to get out...you have to plan on continuing the fight further in and risking death - or do you consider porting out or fighting your way back out? How about equipping it and placing something else in your pack in exchange? Players will really have to plan ahead when they go out adventuring.
I'd like to know how the "random selection" of what's looted by another player works. Is there a percentage or some other system such as a strict number? IE, 20% can be looted, 30%, or 3 items, etc? How about changing the percentage/number of what's dropped by comparing how far the looting player is higher or lower in level? - for example, if I die in a level 2 dungeon as a level 2 player, I'd like to hope there's a diminishing rewards system in place to keep a level 12 player from camping the area waiting for players to die and looting their husk. Or having that level 12 player loot "just because" to grief you and have your husk destroyed. However, another level 2 player would be able to loot the husk at the full random percentage.
My thoughts for now..
Adjusting the loot percentage based on level difference is a great idea to additionally limit griefing, which Ryan defined as player-killing without a viable in-game justification.
Lots of questions sorry in advance
character dies...turn into husk on the spot.
Will a PC die at 0hp or will they fall unconscious? If a PC falls unconscious can it be robbed? If the PC is unconscious and the attacker stops, does the pc die? If so does the attacker then become the killer?
Will there be AI NPC hirelings? If the PC has AI hirelings/pets/eidolons/champions/familiars can they return a pc's soul to the corpse with the proper abilities? What about if the pc is unconscious can they heal/ restore the pc? Will they protect your husk/corpse?
until you return to your husk, you are in danger of losing the rest of your inventory...." a looted corpse destroys "the rest of your inventory.. and removed from the game.
Please make certain exceptions for quest items, specific reputation, gathered resources, and profession items to remain on a looted corpse for a longer period. Nothing sucks more than taping a resource node and then getting ganked, or trying to get into a dungeon. Then to add insult with what was described would be to loose any items needed for further completion of quests and etc. Example remember the fights to get into MC or BWL? Now imagine loosing raiding goods to a greifer group.
How are you going to do the inventory management/banking system? people arent going to want to carry much on them.
Pathfinder Online's bounty system is a lot more selective. When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.
Will there be a reputation system that punishes the greifer in addition to the bounty? example if a team outlaws/griefers are killing pcs outside the marshaled zone of thornkeep and generating higher bounties will they still be allowed to keep coming into thornkeep or the other 2 towns (assuming they are associated) with out any adverse reaction from the npcs, like higher purchase prices, lower resale prices, guards becoming hostile, and losing that soulstone location? If PC's action result in a marshal and the PC dies is there any additional punishment?
If you attempt to heal or buff characters who are in the act of attacking others
wont this discourage players from coming to the aid of others? Maybe there should be some sort of Karma award that initiated by the pc getting ganked.
What will stop a ganking player from placing a bounty on a Pc that successfully defends them self?
Kind of off subject how are yall going to deal with gold sellers, and botters. I know a lot of people love ganking botters since its a way temporarily disrupt their actions. But with the bounty program legit players can become an the target to those that "illegally" control a majority of the in game monetary system
I fell into instant love after last two Ryan posts. Count me into first 4500! ]:>
Casualization of the game isn't really the best idea if you want to hit at niche market(As few other people mentioned)
Casualization led mmo market to themepark, high-aiming WoW-competition which mostly fails. It's hard to start with so many features WoW has already(And comparing WoW on release to fresh games isn't really working. We're in 2012, not 2004)
Furthermore, I've got a feeling that some people in here can't see the good sides of partial loot system (And few others are calling it full loot for some reason >.>) and see it as a total game breaker. You want a living world with working economy, happy crafters and people MAKING the actual world with themepark rules? Have fun designing such a thing.
Back in a day when I played UO, we were losing whole our stuff on daily basis. That game was a lots of fun, because it doesn't took hours to get back on your feet. You guys just need to realize how different sandbox mmo is, compared to "Gather 20wolf paws and I'll lvl you up" thing.
Anyway, everything we might do now is just theorycrafting. We need to see that system in action to really judge it. It's too early to cross out the game just because you feel that "partial-loot" system(lets call it like that)will make it too hardcore. My advice - give it a shot anyway. Who knows, maybe you would love it despite that "punishing" fact?
Always look at the bright side of...river? :-x
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Goblin Squad Member
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hm, Jagga Spikes of Thornkeep... yes, that will do nicely.
will equipped items be affected in any way on death or use? damage to durability? if not, i don't see much demand being created for crafters, except for consumables (food, potions).
how much will we be able to carry? will there be weight limits and encumbrance effects to movement?
looting should take some time and/or require being "out-of-combat", otherwise there won't be much point in defending corpses.
While we don't have much to go on just yet, the information we are receiving indicates so far this is shaping up to cater to me 100%.
As someone who's felt increasingly homeless as MMOs cater more and more to the 'zero risk for epic reward while exerting minimal effort along a clearly defined linear path now now now crowd', this information has me cautiously excited.
While we don't have details on every system yet, I can atleast rest easy knowing that every aspect of what has been shared with us is certainly leaning in the right direction (for me).
I definitely believe that there is a fairly large (few hundred thousand maybe?) subset of MMO players that are simply not being catered to by the endless onslaught of dumbed down linear task hub grind clones. I'm sure whoever manages to tap into that crowd would stand to gain a loyal following provided the game was of acceptable quality, and probably more success than if they chase after the exact same piece of pie everyone else is.
After a certain 2004 MMO introduced new people to MMOs, I asssumed developers would ease them into the basic concepts of what MMOs are, then take off the training wheels. Instead the training wheels have been left on, developers are suffocating us with extra thick padded armor and are now refusing to even let go of the handlebars. Ugh!
I'm sure *some* of those people might be ready for a taste of a dangerous fantasy world that's actually dangerous. A broad spectrum of experiences in a persistant online world just makes more sense to me. How can I appreciate my victories and successes when there's no risk and no consequences for failure?
I guess one answer to that is that for some these are just games, while for others, they potentially represent a multi-year spanning hobby.
Obviously it's very early yet and while trying not to get my hopes up, I will eagerly be jumping on any tid-bit of news shared about Pathfinder in the coming months.
Thanks a bunch for the update :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe Mr. Dancey said that we are the content. Sorry, Balodek, but you seem set on repeating 'I am the victim'. We are the content means that instead of grinding mindless mobs for cloth or loot or whatever maybe me and my guys wait for you and your guys to come by guarding a caravan of hard-earned resources. We are the challenge for you and visa versa. You're not someones' 'lootable corpse', hell, how about kickin' some ass? I played WOW for a long time. It's not a theme park or a virtual world. It's a wax museum.
Assuming I'm going to win every fight is foolish. I'm talking about the fights I'm going to lose, because that will happen. Let's say I have plenty of good gear, a large bag full of potions, wands, some spare boots of levitation for those really big cliffs. I am wolf packed by an organized band of players who specialized in looting travelers. Let's call them bandits.
I show up back in town, my armor torn, my sword nicked, hair disheveled, with the prospect of a run back to my corpse ahead of me. Let's hope I'm not one of the unlucky sods who decided to be an explorer, since you can only soul-bind once there is no incentive to explore unless you're in a large caravan. I get back to my looted husk to find that not only have the bandits taken some of my gear, but the rest has been destroyed by the game. After all, the bandits didn't get it off me, and I clearly had no more use for it, since I died it wasn't doing me any good.
Very well then, bandits have stolen part of my gear and the rest is gone forever. I get some friends together and form a mining consortium or adventuring band or what have you. I replace my gear, and we go hunting bandits. Eventually we find their camp and slay them. We loot their corpses, getting a small fraction of what they have on them, confident that they have learned their lesson. Of course, there is this nice camp sitting around here, and the bandits probably won't need it.
Come to think of it, life is good for a bandit. You don't have to spend hours mining, skinning, hunting, chopping trees. Just kill people and take what they have. In fact, if you don't want to risk the ire of the guards or the alignment consequences, just wander around and make sure other people die when you're there.
All of this is allegory, and the fact remains that you're still missing my main point. Losing stuff on death is acceptable, if it's part of the game at the outset then you implicitly agree to that rule when you play. It's loosing all the gear that wasn't taken that's a kick in the shorts. It's nothing more or less than an artificial way of boosting the economy and encouraging group play. If you lose that potion of healing, you have to go buy more. Which means the crafter has to hire more people who gather the herbs. Which means they risk death to get them. See the cycle here?
@Balodek: I understand your frustration here, but from what you have said you can bring a fair few bodies to the table, my question to you is are they ALL going to be gathering? You seem like youll be wanting to be a crafter/Merchant, you will have the resource to hire people to come with you and defend you or Surely one of your 20 od people will come with you?
Ideally I'd like to explore the world as a ranger, but with my soul being bound miles and miles away and losing everything I spent weeks in the wild gathering if I'm looted, that's a bit of a non-starter.
While I know 20 people who play MMOs, not all of them will ever be online at the same time. Timezones, jobs, hobbies, and crotchlings all conspire to keep us online at different times.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll be blunt, I don't like the idea of Sir Douchealot the Paladin being able to run up and smite me upside the head while I'm out picking Wolfsbane, but that's life for you in Golarion.
I will suggest a 3-minute 'Husk' Timer, so that people have a chance to get back to their corpses, but the killer should also get something more from the Husk than the Random Looting Hobo that just ran past.
Rather than losing your items, perhaps a better idea would be to have X amount of the items removed and given to the killer/looting player as random items? The Killing Player has a greater % of getting a magical or otherwise expensive item, while the Looting Player is more likely to get supplies or non-magical items.
You're a guy running around with a sack full of Mithril Ore. Game goes "Okay, Mithril ore can be made into X, Y, B, F or J. Mithril is worth 100 gold per pound, slain player has 40 pounds, looting player gets random loot worth 4,000, rounded down."
I love the concept of being where you're 'soul-bound' dictating how far you should stray from home. Players won't be stuck in the main cities because death in this situation = being miles and miles and miles from your Husk with hundreds of mouth-breathers homing in on your body.
Players are now encouraged to go out and Soul-Bind themselves to distant Shrines and fortified towns to ensure they are closer to their potential bodies, and as a certified kleptomaniac this is going to cause me no end of grief, but are also likely going to invest in banking or some kind so that they do not run around with a small fortune's worth of non-wearable items in their back pockets.
I would also love to see players being able to 'call' their mounts, with a delay dependant upon the distance of the mount's last location relevant to the player's current one being a deciding factor in how fast the Mount 'spawns' nearby and tracks down the player.
Assuming I am on at a weird hour and am out gathering herbs, I look up and see Sir Douchealot advancing on me, a known player-killer and general a+!*!@@.
Thank the Gods I worn brown trousers that day! I use my whistle to summon my horse, and start running towards the town. Sir Douchealot gives chase, and within twenty seconds my beloved Horse comes galloping out of the forest towards me. I mount, Douchealot right on my heels, and then gallop to the relative safety of the town. Douchealot calls for his own mount, which arrives within seconds due to his dismounting just before noticing me, and the chase is on.
Hopefully my character can make it back to the Town to get within a 'protected' Hex so Douchealot gets his comeuppance, but preferably close enough that I can get back to my corpse before this Career Player-Killer can loot the Husk I leave behind.
While I do really, really, really dislike the idea of losing all of 'my non-combat stuff', it also hammers home that this game has real, true consequences. Either hire some NPC Mercenaries or make some PC Friends, because Golarion does not like the Loner.
That said, regardless of what Class I end up making, I'm a horrible, horrible care-bear and will probably end up 'multi-classing' purely to get a low-level Resurrection Spell just to bring dead people back to life. And probably spot 'lowbies' the gold needed for their Bounties. And probably help the Bounty-Hunters nail Sir Doucheadin to the Player-Built Wall. Gah. GIVE ME THIS GAME ALREADY!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well having read the blog over the loss system doesn't seem to bad (no where near the worse I have ever seen). Although I do think the bounty system as suggested could do with being looked into a bit more mostly the part where you can keep reissuing bounties on the same person after they have been collected which could lead to a form 3rd party grieving.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sgtswords You are correct, there are plenty of things I don't know about how this is going to play out. The simple fact of the matter is I am now old enough that I don't feel the need to spend money on things I don't like. I will try the game. If I don't like it, I walk away no hard feelings. If I like the game, I play it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The newest blog post has me more excited for the game, and I'm glad to see that the Goblinworks folks are actually listening. I can see things from the wishlist thread that have made their way into the design, despite the constant nay-saying. This is all shaping up to show me that when I play, I'll be making a character instead of a toon. To each their own, but this is the kind of MMO I've been waiting for.
I really, really (really) want to be in that opening group, but I'll be happy just having the chance to play this game.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Ok, so if corpse looting is instantaneous, then how do the marshals ever catch anyone if they have to travel to the scene of the murder? The murderer will instantaneously loot the corpse and then, knowing marshals are on the way, run the hell away (or ride, fly, teleport, etc.) Unless the marshalls are all quicklings, or their freeze in place power has a range of 100 miles, and freezes the criminals before they show up, then I'm not seeing how they're an effective deterent at all unless you're in the city and they show up pretty much instantly.
As always, thanks for the dev blogs, please keep them coming!
Here's an emergent player behavior in response to the looting system that you might want to consider. If I know that anyone killing me will get a random sample of things from my bag as a reward, then I will make sure my bags are always full of worthless crap ("rocks", for shorthand). As I find things I want to loot, I'll replace the rocks with the better loot; until I eventually get somewhere to sell my haul. This doesn't help me save any of my loot if I'm killed, but it does reduce the chance that my killer was rewarded for that behavior. It would also be very annoying having to constantly move the rocks around.
To combat this, consider making the roll to determine what you find in a husk based on the total size of the bags, not just what is carried. If I've just got one thing, I don't want my killer to be guaranteed that he will get that as a reward. I want him to have the same chance as if I'd filled the rest of my bags with rocks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, so if corpse looting is instantaneous, then how do the marshals ever catch anyone if they have to travel to the scene of the murder? The murderer will instantaneously loot the corpse and then, knowing marshals are on the way, run the hell away (or ride, fly, teleport, etc.)
They've stated that a corpse or 'husk' will not be lootable for a minute or two, to give players a chance to run back and recover all of their items. So it means people looking to Stab'n'Loot will have to weigh up the chance of a rare loot drop vs an ever-increasing and endless spam of unescapable 'Marshal' NPCs who are faster than a normal player, have access to unique abilities designed to slow down and trap normal players, and who are apparently able to track you relentlessly.
Unless the marshalls are all quicklings, or their freeze in place power has a range of 100 miles, and freezes the criminals before they show up, then I'm not seeing how they're an effective deterent at all unless you're in the city and they show up pretty much instantly.
Apparently so long as you are within a 'Hex' in which an allied town is located, the Marshals will spawn and head to your location. Regions that are neutral, wild or hold hostile towns will not do so. You're on your own.
It's risk vs reward. Stay closer to town and you'll level up, slower than a player who risks it all by heading out into the wilds. You'll also never get access to the rarer and more powerful items by sticking to the 'safe' path.
I like it, because it becomes a good incentive to not only group up with trusted people, but to not be sir Douchealot the Paladin. Being a Jerk in Pathfinder Online will lead to your being marginalized by the other players, especially if you have a habit of shanking crafters and explorers and worse still, bragging about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To present the other side of my own argument in this case, allow me to quote Mr. Dancey on an earlier thread about consequences in MMOs:
snip
In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
/snip
So, clearly the developers are aware of the consequences of this decision. I have confidence it will implemented in a way in which players can learn to live with it. The fact that the husk is unlootable for a few minutes (hopefully long enough to get back to it) is good news. My one and only concern in this matter is that if I don't get back to my husk fast enough, the remainder of what was looted is destroyed. I will risk losing a percentage of my take in order to make money by harvesting rare items or wandering far from civilization, but risking 100% is well past my limit. 75%? 65%? I don't know what magic number would "feel right" to me to lose if I die, but 100% is not that number.
To present the other side of my own argument in this case, allow me to quote Mr. Dancey on an earlier thread about consequences in MMOs:
So, clearly the developers are aware of the consequences of this decision. I have confidence it will implemented in a way in which players can learn to live with it. The fact that the husk is unlootable for a few minutes (hopefully long enough to get back to it) is good news. My one and only concern in this matter is that if I don't get back to my husk fast enough, the remainder of what was looted is destroyed. I will risk losing a percentage of my take in order to make money by harvesting rare items or wandering far from civilization, but risking 100% is well past my limit. 75%? 65%? I don't know what magic number would "feel right" to me to lose if I die, but 100% is not that number.snip
In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
/snip
There two differences from Darkfall that I see in this system. First, you don't get to take all of a players stuff when you kill them, so the reward for the behavior is less. Second, you don't lose anything you have equipped, so the penalty is less. Between these two, I don't think we'll see the same complete abandonment of any non-caster class.
In fact, most of the time in dangerous areas I expect to be wearing my best equipment (making it immune to loss), and not carrying very much else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There two differences from Darkfall that I see in this system. First, you don't get to take all of a players stuff when you kill them, so the reward for the behavior is less. Second, you don't lose anything you have equipped, so the penalty is less. Between these two, I don't think we'll see the same complete abandonment of any non-caster class.In fact, most of the time in dangerous areas I expect to be wearing my best equipment (making it immune to loss), and not carrying very much else.
Yes, that is correct. The Darkfall portion was quoted in order to help make my point that the developers are competent and aware that there are consequences, using Mr. Dancey's own words to support my statement. This is called an example.
As always, thanks for the dev blogs, please keep them coming!
Here's an emergent player behavior in response to the looting system that you might want to consider. If I know that anyone killing me will get a random sample of things from my bag as a reward, then I will make sure my bags are always full of worthless crap ("rocks", for shorthand). As I find things I want to loot, I'll replace the rocks with the better loot; until I eventually get somewhere to sell my haul. This doesn't help me save any of my loot if I'm killed, but it does reduce the chance that my killer was rewarded for that behavior. It would also be very annoying having to constantly move the rocks around.
To combat this, consider making the roll to determine what you find in a husk based on the total size of the bags, not just what is carried. If I've just got one thing, I don't want my killer to be guaranteed that he will get that as a reward. I want him to have the same chance as if I'd filled the rest of my bags with rocks.
I have to agree with this. In addition, I would like to see the probability of something getting looted being tied to how rare that item is. More expensive items should be easier to loot, IMO, but I could see it going the other way.
Basicly, I would set up a % chance of any item in the inventory being looted. The more expensive the item, the higher the % chance (since looters would be more interested in things that appraise higher, they would be prioritizing those objects). This reduces the rock effect Viga describes, as well as prevents time consuming items from leaving the game after being obtained. I want PVPers in open PVP areas to get valid rewards, and making sure rare resources are obtained is important.
I would also consider reducing the probability that the good items are found on the corpse the closer to a safe zone you are. You have less time to loot it before the marshals get there and are more rushed.
Annother idea: corpses are unlootable within x distance to a marshal. They stop you from looting it, so people in towns get all of their stuff and they closer they are to town the greater chance that the marshal will prevent them from being looted.
I think raw resources should have a higher probability to be found than manufactured items on a corpse. It makes the PVPer have to still need others to get the good stuff, but they can provide the resources for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like to read more about how we will know whether killing someone will be considered murder.
I would also encourage you to allow me to warn another player to leave or be killed, and then after a suitable time be able to kill them without being considered a murderer, if they haven't left the area I warned them out of. My concern is that a griefer can come into another faction's territory and grief the inhabitants there in non-murder ways, and then be able to grief them further with a never-ending bounty if the other faction attempts to drive out the griefer by killing them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some more questioned answered:
Will there be some mechanism which rewards players for carrying things that aren't equipped?
Unlikely
Why not make the 'destroy everything that isn't looted' part be made optional, on the part of the looter?
I can see the logic but I also think it only gets used in the corner case of your buddies trying to protect your stuff.
Will some powerful items be exempt from potential destruction
Almost certainly.
Will coinage be conserved
Yes, coins are virtual and aren't actual items.
Will there be an option for storing things you own, like a safe deposit box?
You'll have storage that's perfectly secure. You may be able to create ad hoc storage in the wilderness but it will not be perfectly secure.
"You can be soulbound to only one point at a time."
Yes.
Do you anticipate a lot of things (like marshals) being limited to NPC groups
Currently the Marshals and the Security System are the only thing in the design document which are unique to NPC settlements.
Will a PC die at 0hp or will they fall unconscious?
You could consider the timer to be the unconscious period before death.
Will there be AI NPC hirelings?
I don't know.
How are you going to do the inventory management/banking system?
Awesomely.
Will there be a reputation system that punishes the greifer in addition to the bounty?
Alignment will serve this function to a degree.
Oh, and by the way, why do you think a wretched hive of scum and villainy would enforce laws against murder?
What will stop a ganking player from placing a bounty on a Pc that successfully defends them self?
You do not become a criminal if you kill someone who attacked you first.
Kind of off subject how are yall going to deal with gold sellers, and botters.
Crush them, see them driven before us, hear the lamentation of their women.
how much will we be able to carry?
I don't know.
I get my fun in games, at least when solo, from taking extreme amounts of risk
Don't hold anything in inventory and you risk nothing other than a bit of time to get back to wherever it was that you were engaged in Xtreme Adventuring.
how do the marshals ever catch anyone if they have to travel to the scene of the murder?
Did I forget to mention that if you're a murderer you can't fast travel while in a security zone? And the Marshals always know where you are? And they may be on flying mounts? Or maybe they're Phantasmal Killers. Or worse. Oops - my bad. :)
I would really like to read more about how we will know whether killing someone will be considered murder.
A warning will pop up on your screen that says "killing this person will make you a criminal, a murderer, and may result in a bounty being placed on your head", or something equally easy to understand.
RyanD
I Can't Stand The Idea That My Stuff Gets Taken Or Lost
Yup, I hear ya. Luckily, there are umpteen dozen themepark MMOs for you where you don't have to worry about it. We already know how those games develop: They have a big spike, a maximum level of success, then a collapse followed by server consolidation and a starvation of future development investment due to a failure to "compete" with World of Warcraft. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity.
While I can understand why you are doing this, unfortunately corpse looting / gear destruction means my interest in the game just died. I get my fun in games, at least when solo, from taking extreme amounts of risk; this obviously results in a copious amount of deaths. Thus, my play style is not really compatible with harsh death penalties; I end up enjoying better an average game with no death penalties than a really good one with harsh death penalties.
(When in groups I don't take unnecessary risks, but it's more to avoid unintentionally griefing the group than due to some personal preference. It's perhaps the main reason I'm very picky about grouping up in MMOs; unless the players I'm grouped with are fun enough to make up for me being forced to not follow my preferred play style, in the end I have less fun and more frustration from playing in a group.)
That's fair enough, but as mentioned there are hundreds of other MMOs that *ALL* cater to a playstyle in which there is no consequences for taking risks. Death is a quick form of travel in most MMOs, can't we just have this one in which it's not trivial? :)
I personally think the prospect of actual risk in what's supposedly a dangerous world sounds extremely refreshing after almost a decade of slumming it in 'zero risk for epic reward MMO emulators'.
Having a playstyle that can be defined as 'taking extreme amounts of risk' is probably not something you'd have picked up if there had been consequences for failure, for a game that actually has consequences, should you decide to play, it would simply mean you'd need to treat the world with a bit more respect.
You might even find you enjoy it, I personally think playing in an online fantasy world that's all cuddely and covered in safety foam is a very one dimensional experience. I'll take as broad a spectrum of experiences as possible.
I have no fond or strong memories of doing those task hub grinds in the zero risk zero consequence setting of WoW, however I recall distinctly the adrenaline of losing a corpse in Plane of Fear, and am still in touch a decade later with the friends that helped me recover it.
I, for one, am very pleased to hear they're taking this approach.
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PS: I just re-read the original blog more thoroughly, and as I haven't asked any questions yet and many questions are being answered, I'd just like to ask: Is it ready yet? How about now?
I know I said I wasn't going to get my hopes up, but given that I'm here instead of playing the latest entry into the 'we want a slice of WoW pie'christmas release, I think it's pretty evident that it's too late for me.
Looking forward to more news, and was very pleased to see some solid details with this latest entry.
How are you going to do the inventory management/banking system?Awesomely.
wow got ridiculous in its inventory management, and path of exile has some quirks as well
Will there be a reputation system that punishes the greifer in addition to the bounty?Alignment will serve this function to a degree.
I hope the system isnt rewarding chaotic evil parties for ganking
Oh, and by the way, why do you think a wretched hive of scum and villainy would enforce laws against murder?
Mos Eisley had its rules or maybe you have forgotten that droids werent allowed (in the bar), and somebody alerted the empire to some light saber action, which suggest some sort of laws. Even Barter town had its rules with thunderdome and the wheel
Crush them, see them driven before us, hear the lamentation of their women.
would that be a hit to your alignment if you were good? ;)
Hearing the lamentation of the women brings up another subject will you be shooting for a mature rating, or will it be teen
I respect that Mr. Dancey is being upfront about exactly what the game is intended to be, and isn't passing out false illusions. I greatly respect that, even, and it illustrates why I like Paizo as a company.
In my experience, the 'intended' usage behind a product is -never- the way it turns out. While there may be a million WoW clones, the largest problem most MMO developers (theme-park variety) face is that they base their ideas on what is intended. Ilum in SWTOR is a perfect example. As intended, it's wonderful. But they 'intended' for there to be roughly a 50-50 split of Republic/Imperial, and I can't imagine how good the late-night parties must have been to come up with -that- belief. It's the unintended that makes this a non-starter to me. I also recognize that for some niche players, this will be a godsend and I hope you get the pvp/sandbox game that that player segment has been longing for.
I wish you all the best of luck in PO even though I no longer feel that this is the kind of game I'm interested in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will there be a reputation system that punishes the greifer in addition to the bounty?Alignment will serve this function to a degree.
I hope the system isnt rewarding chaotic evil parties for ganking
I actually hope it does. Being 'true' to your alignment should offer you mechanical incentives. Yes, you can be a sociopathic monster dripping with the gore of your fellow players, and you will gain in-game benefits.
However, expect the other players to run screaming, soil themselves or throw the Golarion version of the Death Star at you the instant you walk into town ....
Oh, and by the way, why do you think a wretched hive of scum and villainy would enforce laws against murder?Mos Eisley had its rules or maybe you have forgotten that droids werent allowed (in the bar), and somebody alerted the empire to some light saber action, which suggest some sort of laws. Even Barter town had its rules with thunderdome and the wheel.
YES YES YES YES YES!!! Do Want!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I waited a bit before posting in this thread. I must say I like what I am hearing more and more.
I have never played a sandbox game before. The idea of corpse looting still makes me nervous. However, it sounds as if it will not be as terrible as it could have been.
I greatly look forward to more and more info being released about PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was trying to maintain a certain aloof composure as I read about the upcoming MMO. "It might be good, it might not. Either way, no big deal." But as I continued, images of characters sprang unbidden into my mind. "I will play a bandit, charming but ruthless. Which of my friends can I convince to play with me? We can form a gang. We'll be like the Stag Lord's men, but better. Maybe we can convince people to part with a small amount of their earnings in exchange for their lives. Maybe there will already be a group of bandits. I'll work my way up through the ranks, ingratiate myself to the leader..."
At virtually the same time, I was thinking, "I will travel the world, looking for those in need. I will offer healing to those who ask, watch over the possessions of the slain that they do not fall into evil hands. I will accept any bounty, however trivial, so long as justice is being served. All people should be able to freely travel the River Kingdoms, and I'm going to do my part to uphold that freedom."
Anyway, I can't help but be stoked, because just this small update about how death and looting will be handled set off a montage of cool scenes in my head of ways that I could play the game.
There's been a fair amount of talk that sounds dismissive of WoW and other popular MMOs. I think WoW is quite fun and gives you that addictive sense of accomplishment, and I have some fond memories from the RP servers. That said, my fondest MMO memories are of UO, of running panicked through the wilderness and being rescued by a kind and experienced warrior, invited into her home to rest and resupply. I remember the schemes my friends and I hatched, and how anything seemed possible. I'm feeling that same sense of wonder and possibility again. I hope it is well-founded.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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To present the other side of my own argument in this case, allow me to quote Mr. Dancey on an earlier thread about consequences in MMOs:
So, clearly the developers are aware of the consequences of this decision. I have confidence it will implemented in a way in which players can learn to live with it. The fact that the husk is unlootable for a few minutes (hopefully long enough to get back to it) is good news. My one and only concern in this matter is that if I don't get back to my husk fast enough, the remainder of what was looted is destroyed. I will risk losing a percentage of my take in order to make money by harvesting rare items or wandering far from civilization, but risking 100% is well past my limit. 75%? 65%? I don't know what magic number would "feel right" to me to lose if I die, but 100% is not that number.
snip
In Darkfall, every item you carry can be looted if you die. Since killing a single, fully equipped character is a much better source of getting good gear than grinding your way through dungeons or doing the resource harvesting/crafting cycle, it quickly became the norm for small groups to prey on anyone who dared to leave the safe confines of a city wearing decent gear. The result was that players started to play naked characters with a concentration on spells instead of items to do damage and the whole player economy and PvE adventure content died.
/snip
That makes for fewer people willing to venture out far from civilization, which means fewer bandits that far out (supply/demand curve) I'll take a partner out there, gather the rare resources, and very shortly we will be better equipped than the bandits, and relatively safe from people randomly finding us. If there are enough people in the far away area to make banditry worthwhile, I'll go to the far, far away area, and trade the rarer resources for rare resources.
Please make certain exceptions for quest items, specific reputation, gathered resources, and profession items to remain on a looted corpse for a longer period. Nothing sucks more than taping a resource node and then getting ganked, or trying to get into a dungeon. Then to add insult with what was described would be to loose any items needed for further completion of quests and etc. Example remember the fights to get into MC or BWL? Now imagine loosing raiding goods to a greifer group.
I don't think there will be 'quest items' in the sense you are thinking of. "Bring me twenty pristine wolf livers" isn't the core of sandbox games. There might be a NPC who pays a bounty on rat tails or wolf pelts, but that is just a mechanism for gold to enter the economy.
And having the gathered or manufactured resources be lootable is important.This is NOT "WoW in Golarian" and it shouldn't be. Just because WoW had a core gameplay element doesn't mead PFO will, or should. If open PvP with significant corpse looting were to be implemented in WoW, with no other changes, it would break the game in a bad way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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NPC anti-murderer lawmen, eh? Did those marshals get their training in some town called... Concord?
I laughed when I read that. I hope there is a town called Concord in-game which has the marshal training academy.
+1 rep for the bounty system. I like the idea of specifying who receives the bounty reward.|
Goblin Squad Member
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That makes for fewer people willing to venture out far from civilization, which means fewer bandits that far out (supply/demand curve) I'll take a partner out there, gather the rare resources, and very shortly we will be better equipped than the bandits, and relatively safe from people randomly finding us. If there are enough people in the far away area to make banditry worthwhile, I'll go to the far, far away area, and trade the rarer resources for rare resources.
I think the opposite will likely be true, ignoring the security alone, the bandits will likely have their own time vs risk thing that they care about. Killing 10 people for 100 gold worth of items each, or killing 1 person for 10,000 worth of items. Sometimes quality is better then quanity, an it all depends on the scale of how good items are farther out in the wilderness.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think the opposite will likely be true, ignoring the security alone, the bandits will likely have their own time vs risk thing that they care about. Killing 10 people for 100 gold worth of items each, or killing 1 person for 10,000 worth of items. Sometimes quality is better then quanity, an it all depends on the scale of how good items are farther out in the wilderness.
That makes for fewer people willing to venture out far from civilization, which means fewer bandits that far out (supply/demand curve) I'll take a partner out there, gather the rare resources, and very shortly we will be better equipped than the bandits, and relatively safe from people randomly finding us. If there are enough people in the far away area to make banditry worthwhile, I'll go to the far, far away area, and trade the rarer resources for rare resources.
I want to make the expected values even less. Have a good chance of catching four or five people in an hour, versus having a very small chance of catching two people working together. Any group organized enough to find and beat us is strong and persistent enough to cut a deal with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe Mr. Dancey said that we are the content. Sorry, Balodek, but you seem set on repeating 'I am the victim'. We are the content means that instead of grinding mindless mobs for cloth or loot or whatever maybe me and my guys wait for you and your guys to come by guarding a caravan of hard-earned resources. We are the challenge for you and visa versa. You're not someones' 'lootable corpse', hell, how about kickin' some ass? I played WOW for a long time. It's not a theme park or a virtual world. It's a wax museum.Assuming I'm going to win every fight is foolish. I'm talking about the fights I'm going to lose, because that will happen. Let's say I have plenty of good gear, a large bag full of potions, wands, some spare boots of levitation for those really big cliffs. I am wolf packed by an organized band of players who specialized in looting travelers. Let's call them bandits.
I show up back in town, my armor torn, my sword nicked, hair disheveled, with the prospect of a run back to my corpse ahead of me. Let's hope I'm not one of the unlucky sods who decided to be an explorer, since you can only soul-bind once there is no incentive to explore unless you're in a large caravan. I get back to my looted husk to find that not only have the bandits taken some of my gear, but the rest has been destroyed by the game. After all, the bandits didn't get it off me, and I clearly had no more use for it, since I died it wasn't doing me any good.
Very well then, bandits have stolen part of my gear and the rest is gone forever. I get some friends together and form a mining consortium or adventuring band or what have you. I replace my gear, and we go hunting bandits. Eventually we find their camp and slay them. We loot their corpses, getting a small fraction of what they have on them, confident that they have learned their lesson. Of course, there is this nice camp sitting around here, and the bandits probably won't need it.
Come to think of it, life is good for a bandit....
I didn't say you'd win every fight. I implied that you have a rather gloomy view of your pvp prospects. Ok. Let's assume your Ranger does win some pvp. He's a Ranger-he'll avoid some pvp! With careful planning, sometimes you get back with no pvp at all. That's the challenge. Now you're home and you put stuff in the bank, sell it, give it to crafters. Or, you join the bandits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the policies so far outlined in the article. It fits my view of how PVP should work in an open world MMO. However, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out live. Anything can sound good on paper, but MMO history has shown that good ideas don't always translate well when you have hundreds and thousands of players pushing them to their limits 24/7.
There's been a fair amount of talk that sounds dismissive of WoW and other popular MMOs. I think WoW is quite fun and gives you that addictive sense of accomplishment, and I have some fond memories from the RP servers. That said, my fondest MMO memories are of UO, of running panicked through the wilderness and being rescued by a kind and experienced warrior, invited into her home to rest and resupply. I remember the schemes my friends and I hatched, and how anything seemed possible. I'm feeling that same sense of wonder and possibility again. I hope it is well-founded.
I'll readily admit I've spoken out against WoW on numerous occasions for a multitude of reasons, and I will always lament the damage it did to the MMO landscape (we can talk about that another time), but I will also admit there were some advancements in mechanics that came along because of what they did, and some of that games elements were outright 'fun'.
However, I would rather see those 'fun' elements (primarily the responsive/fluid combat - actally that's the only one I can think of at the moment) worked into a deep sandbox-esque world. It was also what they didn't do with the potential they had that frustrated me.
I think expanded horizontal growth and advancement, rather than just linear vertical purely gear based advancement, would have gone a long way towards making it something I could have enjoyed as well. That plus some giant open world dungeons instead of those repetative linear hallways that played out exacty the same on every run.
I realise a developers job becomes much easier when they can dictate how you interact with their content, but I do think WoW went a bit too far reigning in the options available to players in that area.
Many of the elements of earlier games that were beloved by the community were the results of player creativity and happy accidents on the developers part. Feign death as a pulling mechanic, kiting...these were unintended uses of abilities, discovered through players being creative. And that meant a lot to me. You *could* approach an encounter in any number of ways, while with games like WoW, they want to absolutely dictate how you interact with an encounter and as such they've clamped down tight and reigned in any possibility of players getting creative with mechanics. Which leads to: One tactic for each boss that is scripted to play out the exact same way every single time. Yawn.
I don't believe 'old school' MMO elements have been revisited properly in a very long time, and with the technological advancements the MMO genre has benefitted from in the past few years it might be a great time to see what the best of the old school features and elements mixed with todays technology can produce.
I do think a number of people brought into MMOs with WoW might be ready for the adrenaline rush, edge of your seat jolt that you simply can't have when death has no consequences and the world is danger free.
There's a lot to be said for the sense of satisfaction and camaraderie that comes when looking around after the dust has settled, after a bad pull that should have wiped you 5 minutes ago, and realising you somehow managed to survive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there will be 'quest items' in the sense you are thinking of. "Bring me twenty pristine wolf livers" isn't the core of sandbox games. There might be a NPC who pays a bounty on rat tails or wolf pelts, but that is just a mechanism for gold to enter the economy.
If crafting is as great as some of us hope...and can be a primary source/reason of play for us...and with this looting system, there will be gathering quests.
I as a blacksmith may not waste my time trying to gather and defend myself, instead I will pay you x gold for y piece of z ore. How you gather them, via trade routes or off a fence, I may not care. But, true to the sandbox...these missions should be player driven.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there will be 'quest items' in the sense you are thinking of. "Bring me twenty pristine wolf livers" isn't the core of sandbox games. There might be a NPC who pays a bounty on rat tails or wolf pelts, but that is just a mechanism for gold to enter the economy.If crafting is as great as some of us hope...and can be a primary source/reason of play for us...and with this looting system, there will be gathering quests.
I as a blacksmith may not waste my time trying to gather and defend myself, instead I will pay you x gold for y piece of z ore. How you gather them, via trade routes or off a fence, I may not care. But, true to the sandbox...these missions should be player driven.
But that makes them not quest items, that makes them materials/resources, that are used. I believe the definition of a quest item is something that is only wanted by NPCs and absolutely useless outside of it, which is why they usually get particular protection (as they aren't useful to anyone who is not currently on that quest), and are usually untradable because they don't want people to be able to skip doing that part of the quest (which absolutely should not be the case, if you'd rather be flexing money instead of personal power in a sandbox, more power to ya)
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I don't think there will be 'quest items' in the sense you are thinking of. "Bring me twenty pristine wolf livers" isn't the core of sandbox games. There might be a NPC who pays a bounty on rat tails or wolf pelts, but that is just a mechanism for gold to enter the economy.If crafting is as great as some of us hope...and can be a primary source/reason of play for us...and with this looting system, there will be gathering quests.
I as a blacksmith may not waste my time trying to gather and defend myself, instead I will pay you x gold for y piece of z ore. How you gather them, via trade routes or off a fence, I may not care. But, true to the sandbox...these missions should be player driven.
The modern task system is a crutch and a poor excuse for content, in my opinion. I won't call it a quest system because I don't recall hearing any heroic tales in which the adventurers undertook a quest to click 10 vases. They're more often than not, menial tasks.
However, a player driven task system as you described could be excellent if implemented well.
While at the core they're very similar, the key difference's to me would be that the player driven task system would be inherently more dynamic by it's own nature, and it would save me the trouble of reading some hokey pop culture reference text that attempts to justify the clicking of said 10 vases.
All in all, I don't want to adventure in a world that only exists as a place to facilitate the clicking of 10 vases. I want to adventure in a world that's designed to be adventured in.
I would ideally like the play space to be treated as just that, it's own mechanic and made as interesting to interact with as possible without relying on tasks such as 'Walk ten feet to that guy and deliver this cheese, you'll be obscenely rewarded for such a petty act'.
Long over-arching quests that are quests in the truest sense and potentially span across many play sessions are another thing all together, and I would fully welcome the option to pursue loftier goals.
The long and short of it is, instead of investing in a mundane task system and devoting resources to such a system, see how much can be done without relying on that by making the game world itself enjoyable to interact with.