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Fighter vs Barbarian


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Taldor

Hello everybody, after analyzing the fighter and barbarian classes I think I found out the barbarian class is substantially better at doing what the fighter should be doing... i.e. dishing out damage and kill stuff in melee. On top of this the barbarian class seems more versatile (more skill points) in out of combat situations.

Now I realize most people already know this, but I think this is quite wrong. The fighter class is very limited in what it can do, it's a one trick pony if you want, and being worse than another class at doing its sole job makes the class itself pretty unappealing (imo). After all I can have a human barbarian hit with combat bonus of +8 (1+5+2) and cause 2d6+12 (5+2+2+3) dmg while raging at lvl 1 (Using a greatsword and with power attack and furious focus as feats, 20 points stats), something no fighter builds can hope to emulate at lvl 1 (imo).

While it's true the fighter gets more feats and therefore more customization, the core advantage of the barbarian stays mostly the same through all levels and to even have a chance a fighter would have to put everything in increasing AC hoping to wear out the barbarian.

I usually don't care if different classes doing different things are considered having different power levels (example wizard vs fighter, wizards do very different things than fighters and the 2 classes have very different roles) but I find that classes doing similar things and having similar roles shouldn't be this imballanced.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The rage comes at a hefty price though. A fighter can continue to do constant damage without fear of fatigue.


I don't know that its that simple of a comparison.

is every fight a simple DPR race?

Not to mention that they're very different classes conceptually.

: shrugs:

I don't know, it just seems like an oversimplification of the actual picture.


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It's easier for a GM to come up with an encounter that favors the rage mechanic in terms of duration. 1-3 round combats with a small number of combats (3-4) between rests is the norm.

If the GM comes up with a combat that lasts 10+ rounds (or has 10+ 1-3 round encounters), the advantage goes back to the fighter. But in that situation, the combat is usually considerably difficult, more likely to make a TPK, and thus riskier for a GM.


Why wear the barbarian out when you have more than enough flat bonuses to attack and damage rolls(like Weapon Training) to deal more damage? Then we get into the Critical Feats and you can Blind, Stun, or Sicken the Barbarian with one hit.


I think that barbs are more versatile, and they can have a very good damage, but fighters are better tanking and dmg output. What they don't have is the same ST and skill points, this is sure. I'm wondering on adding knowledge: martials, or profession: soldier that should be used to have some tips about enemy combat style, cause of death (stabbing, sword, neck broken, etc), something about siege weapons, etc. Fighter should have a bonus of 1/2 level on this skill.


Knowledge(History), Heal, and Knowledge(engineering), respectively should cover that, AlecStorm.


meabolex wrote:

It's easier for a GM to come up with an encounter that favors the rage mechanic in terms of duration. 1-3 round combats with a small number of combats (3-4) between rests is the norm.

If the GM comes up with a combat that lasts 10+ rounds (or has 10+ 1-3 round encounters), the advantage goes back to the fighter. But in that situation, the combat is usually considerably difficult, more likely to make a TPK, and thus riskier for a GM.

I am a level 4 Barbarian urban rager I can boost my STR to 22 a x number of times a day I Can choose to stay raged for a24 hours if i wish as long as i don't sleep so i dont understand the mechanix does rage subside? at some point that I have been missing?


Azten, its not about PvP. The classes are not being pitted against each other, they are being weighed against their roles. I do agree that with the amount of utility in rage powers (read Spell Sunder, Knockback, etc.) and damage (read RAGELANCEPOUNCE) that there is a significant difference in scales between the two.

I know my DM was playing around with the idea of letting fighters prepare feats like a wizard prepares spells. We never did a play test, but this thread makes me want to try it out.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lobolusk wrote:
meabolex wrote:

It's easier for a GM to come up with an encounter that favors the rage mechanic in terms of duration. 1-3 round combats with a small number of combats (3-4) between rests is the norm.

If the GM comes up with a combat that lasts 10+ rounds (or has 10+ 1-3 round encounters), the advantage goes back to the fighter. But in that situation, the combat is usually considerably difficult, more likely to make a TPK, and thus riskier for a GM.

I am a level 4 Barbarian urban rager I can boost my STR to 22 a x number of times a day I Can choose to stay raged for a24 hours if i wish as long as i don't sleep so i dont understand the mechanix does rage subside? at some point that I have been missing?

Rage does subside after the rounds per day are over (4+Con Mod +(2*L [where L>1])). At that point you are fatigued for twice the amount of rounds you raged.


Odraude wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
meabolex wrote:

It's easier for a GM to come up with an encounter that favors the rage mechanic in terms of duration. 1-3 round combats with a small number of combats (3-4) between rests is the norm.

If the GM comes up with a combat that lasts 10+ rounds (or has 10+ 1-3 round encounters), the advantage goes back to the fighter. But in that situation, the combat is usually considerably difficult, more likely to make a TPK, and thus riskier for a GM.

I am a level 4 Barbarian urban rager I can boost my STR to 22 a x number of times a day I Can choose to stay raged for a24 hours if i wish as long as i don't sleep so i dont understand the mechanix does rage subside? at some point that I have been missing?
Rage does subside after the rounds per day are over (4+Con Mod +(2*L [where L>1])). At that point you are fatigued for twice the amount of rounds you raged.

never mind i have been doing rage wrong


When comparisons arise, PvP can usually bring up things not otherwise thought about? Also, it doesn't need to be PvP for a fighter to fight a barbarian.

As for RAGELANCEPOUNCE, AM BARBARIAN bends the rules a bit to do that, as had been discussed in [many threads.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lobolusk wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
meabolex wrote:

It's easier for a GM to come up with an encounter that favors the rage mechanic in terms of duration. 1-3 round combats with a small number of combats (3-4) between rests is the norm.

If the GM comes up with a combat that lasts 10+ rounds (or has 10+ 1-3 round encounters), the advantage goes back to the fighter. But in that situation, the combat is usually considerably difficult, more likely to make a TPK, and thus riskier for a GM.

I am a level 4 Barbarian urban rager I can boost my STR to 22 a x number of times a day I Can choose to stay raged for a24 hours if i wish as long as i don't sleep so i dont understand the mechanix does rage subside? at some point that I have been missing?
Rage does subside after the rounds per day are over (4+Con Mod +(2*L [where L>1])). At that point you are fatigued for twice the amount of rounds you raged.
never mind i have been doing rage wrong

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian#TOC-Rage-Ex-

That should help.


Lobolusk wrote:
I am a level 4 Barbarian urban rager I can boost my STR to 22 a x number of times a day I Can choose to stay raged for a24 hours if i wish as long as i don't sleep so i dont understand the mechanix does rage subside? at some point that I have been missing?

Yes, rage subsides after a specified number of rounds. It's dependent on your CON and your barbarian level, I believe. And once you drop out of rage, the fatigue messes you up.


Azten wrote:

When comparisons arise, PvP can usually bring up things not otherwise thought about? Also, it doesn't need to be PvP for a fighter to fight a barbarian.

As for RAGELANCEPOUNCE, AM BARBARIAN bends the rules a bit to do that, as had been discussed in many threads.

I doubt a discussion of class roles can be properly analyzed through PvP. If you are trying to make "Class A is better!" pissing contest, then maybe. And you're right, it doesn't have to be PvP for a class to fight another, but why are we discussing such specific scenarios? Oh right, it was about PvP.

Even forgoing the questionable rulings of RAGELANCEPOUNCE, just access to Pounce is scary enough as it is.


Azten wrote:
Knowledge(History), Heal, and Knowledge(engineering), respectively should cover that, AlecStorm.

I know but i think that this skill should be good for a fighter. A fighter should know all this things without knowing how to build a house or strange machines, how to do surgery, or the history of the region of the past 500 years. Sure, he could know, but it's not matter for a soldier.


Alwaysafk wrote:
I doubt a discussion of class roles can be properly analyzed through PvP.
Tulkash wrote:
Hello everybody, after analyzing the fighter and barbarian classes I think I found out the barbarian class is substantially better at doing what the fighter should be doing... i.e. dishing out damage and kill stuff in melee.

The role of both classes is to deal damage. In a PvP match, the one that deals more damage is going to be the one left standing. The fighter has the advantage and the DPR Olympics have shown this.

Alwaysafk wrote:

Even forgoing the questionable rulings of RAGELANCEPOUNCE, just access to Pounce is scary enough as it is.

This I can agree with. Of course, I do believe it was pointed on in an AM thread that pounce was only supposed to work with Natural Attacks.

Silver Crusade

Tulkash wrote:

Hello everybody, after analyzing the fighter and barbarian classes I think I found out the barbarian class is substantially better at doing what the fighter should be doing... i.e. dishing out damage and kill stuff in melee.

You have it backwards. Yes, the barbarian is better at pure damage in melee, but that's the barbarian's only job. The fighter is the one who has the versatility to be good at a wide variety of fighting styles, due to the sheer number of feats, not to mention the better armor.

Fighters are better at archery than barbarians. Fighters can use their better armor to tank without using up the party's consumable healing, while barbarians tank by having lots of HP and needing lots of healing after fights. Fighters are better at tripping, grapples, and other combat maneuver than barbarians. With those extra feats, fighters can easily get more saving throw bonuses from stuff like iron will, lightning reflexes, etc.

So yes, barbarians are better at pure melee damage (at low levels anyway - I haven't compared at higher levels), but they're the one trick ponies. Fighters have the versatility to do other things.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Even if it was only natural attacks, that's still really dangerous. You don't get the lance, but it's still 3+ primary attacks usually.


The point of the comparison as I understand the OP is not to pit fighter against barbarian in a PvP fight, it's to consider what class is better at its role (dishing out dmg)

The OP claims the barbarian is better than the fighter at this AND it's better at doing other stuff than combat. Considering how rage powers work I tend to agree with him, the barbarian class is generally better than the fighter class at fighting... and that feels wrong imho.


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Tulkash wrote:

Hello everybody, after analyzing the fighter and barbarian classes I think I found out the barbarian class is substantially better at doing what the fighter should be doing... i.e. dishing out damage and kill stuff in melee. On top of this the barbarian class seems more versatile (more skill points) in out of combat situations.

Now I realize most people already know this, but I think this is quite wrong. The fighter class is very limited in what it can do, it's a one trick pony if you want, and being worse than another class at doing its sole job makes the class itself pretty unappealing (imo). After all I can have a human barbarian hit with combat bonus of +8 (1+5+2) and cause 2d6+12 (5+2+2+3) dmg while raging at lvl 1 (Using a greatsword and with power attack and furious focus as feats, 20 points stats), something no fighter builds can hope to emulate at lvl 1 (imo).

While it's true the fighter gets more feats and therefore more customization, the core advantage of the barbarian stays mostly the same through all levels and to even have a chance a fighter would have to put everything in increasing AC hoping to wear out the barbarian.

I usually don't care if different classes doing different things are considered having different power levels (example wizard vs fighter, wizards do very different things than fighters and the 2 classes have very different roles) but I find that classes doing similar things and having similar roles shouldn't be this imballanced.

Some good points have already been mentioned:


  • DPR is not everything
  • Fighters do consistent damage
  • I personally don't like the idea of "I have to get really angry to smash you". I prefer the cool-headed, determined type of fighter. And no, urban barbarian does not fit that bill either.
  • A lot depends on DM style. If you always do only 1-3 rounds encounter, never have several waves of attackers where the barbarian is at a disadvantage when he goes out of rage in between, and you always stay under the total round limit of the barbarians, then yes, the fighter's benefits cannot totally come into play
  • Rage can be stopped and surpressed by opponents
  • You cannot cast during rage (at least with most barbarian types) and a lot of skills are not useable either. So those extra skills don't help you in those situations
  • Barbarians kind of imply a cultural aspect and a certain role. The fighter is less predetermined, which I like.
  • Details of the class such as a fighter being able to tumble in heavy armor don't need discussion here I guess.


Both classes have their certain appeal and in and out of combat uses. I do not think fighters are at a disadvantage here, they just have a different role :-)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I find Barbarians are all about offense. Fighter are about good offense and defense. In the end the fighter can do as much as the Barbarian by sacrificing defense but the option for defense is always there. I find when ever I play a Barbarian I'm feat starved so I prefer the fighter for that and you don't have to track rage, the fighter just does their job and does it consistently.

Qadira

voska66 wrote:
I find Barbarians are all about offense. Fighter are about good offense and defense. In the end the fighter can do as much as the Barbarian by sacrificing defense but the option for defense is always there. I find when ever I play a Barbarian I'm feat starved so I prefer the fighter for that and you don't have to track rage, the fighter just does their job and does it consistently.

As long as your dice like you and haven't gone on strike ;-)

Cheliax

Also, the Barbarian is more MAD than the fighter. Yes, you want a decent Con and at least average Dex for most fighters, but your AC depends less on Dex than the Barbarian. That means more points for Str and Con. The Barbarian will probably equal you in one, but not both of these (boosted a bit when raging at the cost of an effective -4 Dex for AC purposes).

As Voska66 wrote, Barbs are more or less purely offense, while fighters are/can be a balanced mix between the two.

And also, the example of doing 2d6+12 when raging at first level is fairly irrelevant, as in most combats, you will deal 10-15 points more than what is needed to take out the opponent. In that instance, 2d6+6 (fighter, greatsword, Str 18 - with the same option to PA for +3 damage and a feat to spare) is more than enough for most opponents.


I find it rare that a barbarian is actually capable of getting a decent-to-good AC without really sacrificing offense. So - as said before - he's really only useful in dealing large amounts of damage. The figher can do this (maybe not quite as well), but he holds on to his hp's better.

I mean, how often do people play barbarians in a group without a pretty dedicated healer? That's a dicey game right there. Not impossible, but far more difficult than with a melee guy who can actually make his opponents miss.

: shrugs :

But agin, the OP seems to be only interested in how many points of damage he can make in a round.


Barbarian has got some nice rage powers, which can´t be duplicated by feats.

Although I like playing barbs it seems to me, as if the barbarian excels rather in "burst damage" or "burst tricks" (once per rage maneuvers oder abilities), while a fighter can do his stuff more consistently.

It depends on playing style and of course feat/rage power selection, party setup, monster type, environment etc....

In the end each group will like someone standing between the party and the monsters, be it a barb or fighter. ;)

Steve

PS:
I think, there is a PVP page, where you can make a char and let him fight another ones char. i find this very interesting, unfortunately I dont remember the internet adress. :(

Taldor

Eben TheQuiet wrote:

I find it rare that a barbarian is actually capable of getting a decent-to-good AC without really sacrificing offense. So - as said before - he's really only useful in dealing large amounts of damage. The figher can do this (maybe not quite as well), but he holds on to his hp's better.

I mean, how often do people play barbarians in a group without a pretty dedicated healer? That's a dicey game right there. Not impossible, but far more difficult than with a melee guy who can actually make his opponents miss.

: shrugs :

But agin, the OP seems to be only interested in how many points of damage he can make in a round.

The fact is Barbarians have enough offensive power to be able to drop most opponents in a few turns, probably less than it takes for rage to expire. Now, I know that if the encounters are planned to last long then the Barbarian is at a disadvantage after a while... but how often does that happen really? How often does a GM plan successive waves of opponents or send you against something able to wisthand the full fury of a barbarian rage fuelled all out attack (unless he wants to risk a TPK)?

And yes, a fighter tanks much better than a Barbarian, that much is true but again, how often do you need a tank in play when I can kill most things before they have a chance to do anything?

I guess I can sum the essence of this thread with this question:

"As Fighters and barbarians compete for the same spot in most parties (melee damage) why should one who wants to optimize his options choose a fighter over a barbarian?"

Cheliax

Because the idea that Barbarians have "more options" is not universally accepted as the truth.

Don't get me wrong. Barbarians are good, kings of the offense. And they should be. But they will be able to do only one thing really well = kill. And they will be at a disadvantage as soon as the combat doesn't favor the "rage, kill, burn" approach. Against enemies that are hard to reach and have good ranged attacks? I'd rather be the fighter with a decent AC and at least some skill with a bow (because he has the spare feats).

But feel free to build a barbarian (of a level of your choosing, 20 points) and I shall create a fighter of the same level and we'll see how much better that barbarian is against a variety of opponents and/or each other.


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Barbarian vs Fighter class ability based damage with a two handed weapon:
level 1-3: Barbarian does +2 attack, +3 damage with two handed weapons from rage.
level 4: Fighter gets Weapon Specialization. Barbarian now up +2 attack, +1 damage
level 5-7: Fighter gets first weapon training. Barbarian now up +1 attack. If he skipped Weapon Focus because he doesn't get the rest of the tree they're even.
level 8: Fighter gets Greater Weapon Focus. Fighter is even
level 9-10: Fighter gets second weapon training. Fighter now up +1 attack, +1 damage
level 11: Barbarian gets Greater Rage. They're even if the barbarian's non-raging strength is a multiple of 4, otherwise the barbarian is up +1 damage.
Fighter gets Greater Weapon Specialization. Fighter is up +1-2 damage.
level 13-16: Fighter gets third weapon training. Fighter is up +1 attack, +2-3 damage.
level 17-19: Fighter gets fourth weapon training. Fighter is up +2 attack, +3-4 damage.
level 20: Barbarian gets mighty rage. Fighter is now only up +1 attack, +2 damage.

Low level barbarians look good. Mid level barbarians aren't showing a lot for their tanked AC and rounds/day mechanic since I don't think any rage powers give consistent damage bonuses. High level barbarians are flat out behind.

Barbarians are vulnerable to patrolling enemies. If a level<17 barbarian who isn't using lame oracle cheese is doing "too much" damage the GM can make him really miserable by having encounter #2 show up to investigate the disturbance caused by the fight with encounter #1 while the barbarian is recovering from his first rage. If the fighter is doing "too much" damage the GM just has the general anti-martial toolkit. If the GM is honestly following an adventure where multiple encounters in a small dungeon make perception checks and react to them the fighter probably has the advantage from level 4.

Barbarians are also ill suited to blitzing multiple encounters in a small dungeon under the cover of a minutes/level buff spell because they have to waste rounds recovering from post-rage fatigue before looking for the next fight.


Tulkash wrote:

Hello everybody, after analyzing the fighter and barbarian classes I think I found out the barbarian class is substantially better at doing what the fighter should be doing... i.e. dishing out damage and kill stuff in melee. On top of this the barbarian class seems more versatile (more skill points) in out of combat situations.

Now I realize most people already know this, but I think this is quite wrong. The fighter class is very limited in what it can do, it's a one trick pony if you want, and being worse than another class at doing its sole job makes the class itself pretty unappealing (imo). After all I can have a human barbarian hit with combat bonus of +8 (1+5+2) and cause 2d6+12 (5+2+2+3) dmg while raging at lvl 1 (Using a greatsword and with power attack and furious focus as feats, 20 points stats), something no fighter builds can hope to emulate at lvl 1 (imo).

While it's true the fighter gets more feats and therefore more customization, the core advantage of the barbarian stays mostly the same through all levels and to even have a chance a fighter would have to put everything in increasing AC hoping to wear out the barbarian.

I usually don't care if different classes doing different things are considered having different power levels (example wizard vs fighter, wizards do very different things than fighters and the 2 classes have very different roles) but I find that classes doing similar things and having similar roles shouldn't be this imballanced.

Sorry but my sword and board shield focus, toughness and dodge feated fighter (with +3 in Con and Str rather than being just a Str junkie) would just fight defensively while you raged - my AC would be 25 - meaning you would hit once every 6 rounds or so on average - whilst I would be VERY unlucky not to hit you 3 times at least in that period.

I may only do 1d8+3 - but we are matched - 3 hits is 22 average damage, one hit on me is around 20 average damage.

If I go fully defensive (and you rage for 6 rounds tops due to maxing Str not Con), your chance to hit me drops to 1 in 10. I can just wait you out and carve you a new one when you come out of rage.

I'll take those odds - and remember - I can keep that up all day - you stagger about after short bursts of such activity.


Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Because the idea that Barbarians have "more options" is not universally accepted as the truth.

Don't get me wrong. Barbarians are good, kings of the offense. And they should be. But they will be able to do only one thing really well = kill. And they will be at a disadvantage as soon as the combat doesn't favor the "rage, kill, burn" approach. Against enemies that are hard to reach and have good ranged attacks? I'd rather be the fighter with a decent AC and at least some skill with a bow (because he has the spare feats).

But feel free to build a barbarian (of a level of your choosing, 20 points) and I shall create a fighter of the same level and we'll see how much better that barbarian is against a variety of opponents and/or each other.

A cheap magic item give the fighter +2 / +2, but barbs have the furious weapon SA. This is even but barb sacrifice a +2 weapon enanch.


Considering damage a level 17+ barb will strongly benefit from his former "once per rage rage powers", which he could then use every round (rage cycling:
"Strength surge" and the "to hit" and "to damage" powers (which I dont remember right now).
I suppose, the use of these powers will put a barb´s damage and hit above a fighter´s, at least for some rounds...

Concering raw pure damage the feat "Raging Brutality" will bring the barb about +10 damage per HIT with a two handed weapon, which might result in +40 Damage per round.

But it´s not all about damage. :)

Steve

EDIT: Concerning longer lasting fights: There are a couple of feats, by which a barb can regain lost rage rounds. :)


I think Superstition, Spell Sunder, and Eater of Magic are what make the barbarian class now.

Strength Surge is very important too, not just for sundering spells, or ripping the doors off the hinges, but you have to like a feature that lets a barbarian walk up to a Titan and wrestle him to the ground.

In a way the dpr versus a fighter is the least important comparison.

One advantage of a fighter is that they can easily be a good archer in addition to their melee routine. That is much more difficult for a barbarian.


I find that Barbarian is pretty strong at lower levels, but when Fighter climb up their feat chains they gain the upper hand.

Barbarians are also only temporarily more powerful when enraged but if the party is attacked again, the barbarian will be next to useless due to fatigue.

Silver Crusade

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“Phage” 10th level Human Fighter
Str:19 (21)
Dex:14 (16)
Con:14 (16)
Int:13
Wis:9
Cha:7

AC: 35 (36 Dodge) (40 tower shield/full cover)(43 Combat Expertise)
HP: 130
Spd: 30 (40 Boots of Striding and Springing)
Init: +3
Fort: + 11 Ref: + 7 Will: + 5 (+ 8 vs Fear)

+3 tower shield 9,000
+3 bastard sword 18,000
+3 full plate 10,500
Belt of physical perfection +2 16,000
Boots of striding and springing 5,500
Cloak of resistance +1 1,000
Amulet of nat armour +1 2,000
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), dodge, mobility, spring attack, weapon focus (bastard sword), weapon specialization (bastard sword), vital strike, shield focus, greater shield focus, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Lunge
Special: Bravery +3, Armour Training 2, Weapon Training 2,
Attack: +3 Bastardsword: + 21/16 (+18/+13 Combat Expertise) 2d10 + 12 (Vital Strike) 19 – 20 x 2
+ 19/14 (Lunge) 2d10 + 12 (Vital Strike)
+ 16/11 (Lunge)(Combat Expertise) 2d10 + 12 (Vital Strike)

Here is a fighter that I threw together just using the core rulebook. I didn't bother with skills seeing as they aren't important to the discussion. Pretty much this fighter is hard to hit and knows how to keep the barbarian moving which in turn only allows the barbarian one attack. This fighter could also dance around the barbarian using his tower shield for full cover and avoid the barbarian until his Rage ends. Someone may need to check everything and make sure it's right.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Barbarians have access to vastly superior defenses then fighters do.

1) They have a 40' move. For offense AND defense, this is better. They don't have to outrun the monster, just the fighter.

2) A two handed barb is generally going to be 2, maybe 3 pts AC less then a two handed Fighter. That armor training only means something if you have the Dex to take advantage of it. In Mithril Breastplate, that's a 20 dex, which neither is likely to have.
The barb can use a shield as easily as the fighter.

So, a 2-3 net AC advantage to the Fighter. Wahoo?

3) Superstition. OMG. +what, +13 or so vs magic saves?!?

4) Spell Sunder. Whack something and you dispel it. ANy spell. HOMG.

5) Elemental resistance that converts magic to healing. Heesh!

6) Pounce access. Charge, multiple attacks, repeat. 2nd best dmg feat in game.

7) Robilar's Gambit for barbarians. You swing at him, he gets an AoO on you. There is NO better damage dealing feat in the game.

8) Str Surge. Wins all opposed str checks and CMD rolls. Heesh!

9) When in a rage, they get a SUBSTANTIAL bonus to Will saves, on top of everything else.

10) DR as they level, not just at level 19.

11) Uncanny Dodge and Trap Avoidance. The former is VERY nice against enemy rogues and sneak attackers. The latter is useful at other times.

12) More skill points = more out of combat, or in combat, utility. And don't forget, a better skill list, including Acrobatics and the like.

13) And on top of all this a variety of other rage powers that are actually supernatural/magical in power.

14) A Furious Weapon is a +2 weapon...the Barbarian can have it, and effectively a +3 weapon, by level 8ish. A Fighter is going to be 10+ before he can shell out the 10k for Gloves of Duelling...they are pricier by themselves then a +2 weapon! Sure, the Fighter will end up with a +1 better weapon...at level 18. Wahoo?

15) Barb str bonuses work on all weapons, not just those with weapon training. Hacking with an axe, throwing hand axes and javelins, shooting a bow, engaged in fisticuffs...the barbarian is generally better at combat then a fighter, who is generally going to beat him ONLY with a Quad-Spec weapon with his Primary Weapon Training. The barbarian will generally beat him on EVERYTHING else.

Yeah, the Barbarian definitely has a lot of advantages over the fighter.

====Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:


15) Barb str bonuses work on all weapons, not just those with weapon training. Hacking with an axe, throwing hand axes and javelins, shooting a...

Not sure where you get this from. A fighter can use str on all weapons as well and gets an extra bonus from weapon training and is the only one who can take the weapon specialization feat.

Fighter's get this as well:
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver
checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus
also applies to the fighter’s Combat Maneuver Defense
when defending against disarm and sunder attempts
made against weapons from this group.

I believe Robillard's Gambit is a 3.5 feat and not a Pathfinder one. Am I correct on this?

Also, I would like to see the barb's AC you are boasting about.


Concerning Robillards´s Gambit: Ich think Aelryinth is refering to the "Come and get me" rage power, which gives a barb an aoo for EACH melee attack his opponent makes. Combine this mit combat reflexes and a good dex, so a barb can nearly double his damage output.

"Not sure where you get this from. A fighter can use str on all weapons as well and gets an extra bonus from weapon training and is the only one who can take the weapon specialization feat."

Of course a fighter can use his STR bonus on other weapons. But usually a fighter gains weapons fokus / specialisation in just one specific weapon.
If he looses this weapon by whatever he has to use a backup weapon, in which he might have not WF/WS in, resulting in lesser fighting potential.
A barbarians rage on the other hand works with every weapon. He is not "bound" to one specific weapon. He gets his rageboni/ragepowers no matter if its a dagger, a cestus or greataxe.

I think that is what Aelryinth was refering to. :)

Steve


Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Because the idea that Barbarians have "more options" is not universally accepted as the truth.

Don't get me wrong. Barbarians are good, kings of the offense. And they should be. But they will be able to do only one thing really well = kill.

Spell sunder. Your argument is invalid.


But yeah, at this juncture the Barbarian has more tools to deal with a better variety of situations AND at least equal offensive power, far greater with a build that includes Beast Totem and Come and Get Me.

As for AC, it's sort of irrelevant when you have a DR of 8/- or so and a cloak of displacement. I had a barbarian with a raging AC in the single digits at 10th level. It was still very hard to even hurt me significantly.

@Aelryinth-The bonus to will saves when raging doesn't stack with Superstition, sadly :(

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Steve is correct.

The fighter gets his +4 at level 20 with ONE weapon, and SPec bonuses on top of that. So with one weapon, he's better then a barbarian.

His next weapon he's at +3 at. The Barb is +4/+4(6) from Rage boosted Str. Full stop, barb wins with ANY OTHER WEAPON but the fighter's primary.

yes, the fighter can get to +8/+10 with his primary weapon, and that's just awesome, it means he can almost equal a Ranger with Instant Enemy Going at that level...if using his primary weapon. the ranger can, of course, be using anything.

And Come and Get Me is Robilar's Gambit, retasked for Barbarians only. Bah.

I'm not sure where YOU are getting this massive FIghter AC. For a Fighter to exceed a barb on AC, he's got to basically be using Full Plate at late levels, AND has to have the dex to take advantage of armor training (having +4 Armor Training don't mean squat without the 20 Dex to take advantage of it). The barb can have high Dex limit armor, too, like mithral BP..he's basically giving up 1-2 pts of AC from armor, and another 2 while raging. If you go with Celestial Armor, there basically is no dex limit and the barb is fine.

Potentially, yeah, the Fighter can get a higher AC. But the problem is getting that mega uber Dex to do so. FOr most of the game, he's not going to have it or be able to take advantage of it. To max out Mithril Plate mail, you need a 24 dex. That's a 13 dex +6 enhance +5 Enhancement...you're only going to have that at 19+. You won't even need mithral until your Dex hits 22!

And tower shields are odd examples to use in a fight, since the TH penalty means most serious players don't use them.

===Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Oh, that's okay, meatrace. I'm sure the barbs miss it terribly.

But hey, the Fighters get Bravery and can spend a general feat on Iron Will. That makes it all better.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:

Steve is correct.

The fighter gets his +4 at level 20 with ONE weapon, and SPec bonuses on top of that. So with one weapon, he's better then a barbarian.

His next weapon he's at +3 at. The Barb is +4/+4(6) from Rage boosted Str. Full stop, barb wins with ANY OTHER WEAPON but the fighter's primary.

yes, the fighter can get to +8/+10 with his primary weapon, and that's just awesome, it means he can almost equal a Ranger with Instant Enemy Going at that level...if using his primary weapon. the ranger can, of course, be using anything.

And Come and Get Me is Robilar's Gambit, retasked for Barbarians only. Bah.

I'm not sure where YOU are getting this massive FIghter AC. For a Fighter to exceed a barb on AC, he's got to basically be using Full Plate at late levels, AND has to have the dex to take advantage of armor training (having +4 Armor Training don't mean squat without the 20 Dex to take advantage of it). The barb can have high Dex limit armor, too, like mithral BP..he's basically giving up 1-2 pts of AC from armor, and another 2 while raging. If you go with Celestial Armor, there basically is no dex limit and the barb is fine.

Potentially, yeah, the Fighter can get a higher AC. But the problem is getting that mega uber Dex to do so. FOr most of the game, he's not going to have it or be able to take advantage of it. To max out Mithril Plate mail, you need a 24 dex. That's a 13 dex +6 enhance +5 Enhancement...you're only going to have that at 19+. You won't even need mithral until your Dex hits 22!

And tower shields are odd examples to use in a fight, since the TH penalty means most serious players don't use them.

===Aelryinth

Everyone has to worry about losing their weapon. I could make my fighter a sundering machine and destroy the barbarians weapon and I'm sure the barb can do the same. There is such a thing as carrying more of the same weapon if you are worried about that.

My fighter doesn't have a mad dex and he has a very high AC. You won't build a barbarian at 10th level that has a higher AC than my build. Armour Training applies to both plate armour and the tower shield so not only does he get to apply his + 3 from his 16 dex, his speed doesn't take a penalty. Fighters are fully proficient in the tower shield so they don't take a - 2 to their attacks.

If my fighter uses a standard action to gain full cover from his tower shield his AC is a 43 at 10th level. You won't make a barb that has that high an AC. I also used the standard fantasy 15 point start buy. The fighter doesn't need an uber Dex to gain a high AC. Your barb is going to have to sacrifice for dex cause you won't have the points to have a good str, dex, and con.

Now if I use all the books then I could choose more items and feats. I just made this guy quickly using the standard core book.

Tower Shield Proficiency (Combat)
You are trained in how to properly use a tower shield.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you use a tower shield, the shield’s
armor check penalty only applies to Strength and
Dexterity-based skills.
Normal: A character using a shield with which he is
not proficient takes the shield’s armor check penalty on
attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving,
including
Ride.

Because fighter's are proficient with tower shields they don't take a minus on their to-hit, they only take it on str and dex based skills. Serious player's need to realize this if they already haven't.


Aelryinth wrote:

Steve is correct.

The fighter gets his +4 at level 20 with ONE weapon, and SPec bonuses on top of that. So with one weapon, he's better then a barbarian.

His next weapon he's at +3 at. The Barb is +4/+4(6) from Rage boosted Str. Full stop, barb wins with ANY OTHER WEAPON but the fighter's primary.

Unless that second weapon is this thing that even savages should have heard of called a bow. Barbarians are little better than NPC classed warriors with bows. Hope you never need to do ranged damage.


shallowsoul wrote:
Because fighter's are proficient with tower shields they don't take a minus on their to-hit, they only take it on str and dex based skills. Serious player's need to realize this if they already haven't.

Not what we're talking about.

Tower Shields come with a built-in attack penalty IN ADDITION to any non-proficiency penalties.

From the PRD: When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.

It's in the equipment write-up for Tower Shield.

Also tower shields have a Max Dex bonus of +2. Also, AC doesn't matter, so it's a moot point.

AC isn't some magic number that makes your guy tough. Having a high armor class is ONE way to mitigate physical damage, and that's all it does. A Raging, Superstitious Barbarian has a significant amount of DR, but also a huge bonus to saves against magic. A fighter who is slowed when the barb isn't won't be half as useful in combat as the barb.


Atarlost wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Steve is correct.

The fighter gets his +4 at level 20 with ONE weapon, and SPec bonuses on top of that. So with one weapon, he's better then a barbarian.

His next weapon he's at +3 at. The Barb is +4/+4(6) from Rage boosted Str. Full stop, barb wins with ANY OTHER WEAPON but the fighter's primary.

Unless that second weapon is this thing that even savages should have heard of called a bow. Barbarians are little better than NPC classed warriors with bows. Hope you never need to do ranged damage.

I....don't even understand this. How do you come to this conclusion?

10th level Barbarian vs. 10th level fighter. Fighter has, if he took Bows as his second weapon group, a +1 to hit and damage with bows. I'm not sure how a +/- 1 makes one group significantly better or worse than another.

Silver Crusade

You do realize that Superstition will only grant you a + 5 to your saves. Not sure where you got + 13. Down side to this is the barbarian has to roll to resist all spells, even those by hit mates.

Come and Get me is nice but unless the barbarian has a reach weapon, the fighter will get a +4 to hit and damage against the barbarian if the fighter uses the Lunge feat.

I will do some further research but I believe the "Pounce" ability is to be used with the claws that the barbarian gains from the "Beast Totem" various rage powers.

Ael - How about post that 10th level barb AC for us.

Silver Crusade

meatrace wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Because fighter's are proficient with tower shields they don't take a minus on their to-hit, they only take it on str and dex based skills. Serious player's need to realize this if they already haven't.

Not what we're talking about.

Tower Shields come with a built-in attack penalty IN ADDITION to any non-proficiency penalties.

From the PRD: When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.

It's in the equipment write-up for Tower Shield.

Also tower shields have a Max Dex bonus of +2. Also, AC doesn't matter, so it's a moot point.

Read the feat for Tower Proficiency and then read the bottom. If you are proficient in a tower shield then you ignore the - 2 to hit.


shallowsoul wrote:
You do realize that Superstition will only grant you a + 5 to your saves. Not sure where you got + 13. Down side to this is the barbarian has to roll to resist all spells, even those by hit mates.

+2 when you first take the power, +1 ever 4 levels, that's a total of +7 at 20th level. As a human you can take the favored class bonus for +1/3 the bonus from Superstition, or an additional +6 over 18 levels for a total of +13 at 20th level. It can't receive spells that allow a save, that's correct, but what could he possibly need? Burst healing, by the way, is a (Su) and doesn't have a save for the healing effect.

As to your other comment: wait...were you under the impression that the Fighter and the Barb are fighting? How silly. We're not talking about a pvp scenario, we're talking about their comparative uses in a party.


shallowsoul wrote:


Read the feat for Tower Proficiency and then read the bottom. If you are proficient in a tower shield then you ignore the - 2 to hit.

No, you DON'T. Proficiency lets you ignore the ARMOR CHECK PENALTY to attack rolls which would be -10. That is ABOVE AND BEYOND what ALL TOWER SHIELDS penalize you for which is a -2 to all attack rolls AS STATED IN THE EQUIPMENT WRITE-UP. How on earth can you not comprehend this?

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