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Keep characters in-world at all times, even when players are logged off?


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

The idea of being able to do some things while logged off is pretty cool, in my estimation. Perhaps you could be allowed to finish crafting a single item you're already working on while in a game space that is 'safe', especially if you/your guild built that space. This would help a dedicated crafter as well, without making his in-game progression meaningless. Remember there are already two ways you will continue while logged off; skill progression and your character will remain (don't quote me, did they say 30 sec?) online during pvp so you can't just log out to avoid being killed and looted. With RT advancement thru skilling, I assume most characters will be doing that while offline, to be honest.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

If it's going to take 3 days to learn to craft a pair of boots (gaining the Skill), and it's going to take 4 hours to actually craft those boots (for example), then why on earth is the person who is able to sit in front of his computer for that 4 hours more entitled than someone who instructed his character to craft the boots and then logged out?

I believe the goal should be to ensure that each Character has a finite pool of Time as their most valuable resource, and that the player should be able to choose how the Character spends that time, whether they're in front of the screen or not.

I do agree with nihimon in this, if crafting is going to use real time as the limiting factor (IE it takes 3 hours of real time to make an item), than that should be done offline, no-one in their right mind should fairly be forced to sit there and stare at a screen for 4 hours while make a pair of boots. If the limiting control for the boots is time/resources, then getting resources should be the active part, time should be the inactive part.

While I in general hate botting, I think the real issue isn't botting systems themselves, it is having tasks so tedious and mindless that botting is the best way to do them in the game in the first place. I will never be impressed by a guy who manages to click a single button for 900 hours, things that are tediously easy are the part of the game that IMO are better off left out.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
... I think the real issue... is having tasks so tedious and mindless that botting is the best way to do them in the game in the first place.

Tedium is only part of the problem. The other side of the coin is the disparity between people who can play 18 hours a day versus the guy who only gets to log in for a couple of hours on the weekend... if he's lucky. I don't see why either should have any advantage at all over the other.


Onishi wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

If it's going to take 3 days to learn to craft a pair of boots (gaining the Skill), and it's going to take 4 hours to actually craft those boots (for example), then why on earth is the person who is able to sit in front of his computer for that 4 hours more entitled than someone who instructed his character to craft the boots and then logged out?

I believe the goal should be to ensure that each Character has a finite pool of Time as their most valuable resource, and that the player should be able to choose how the Character spends that time, whether they're in front of the screen or not.

I do agree with nihimon in this, if crafting is going to use real time as the limiting factor (IE it takes 3 hours of real time to make an item), than that should be done offline, no-one in their right mind should fairly be forced to sit there and stare at a screen for 4 hours while make a pair of boots. If the limiting control for the boots is time/resources, then getting resources should be the active part, time should be the inactive part.

While I in general hate botting, I think the real issue isn't botting systems themselves, it is having tasks so tedious and mindless that botting is the best way to do them in the game in the first place. I will never be impressed by a guy who manages to click a single button for 900 hours, things that are tediously easy are the part of the game that IMO are better off left out.

This is basically how it works in Eve, the game-time component is made up for by a limited number of production activities going at a time. In order to maximize your productiveness you still have to log in at the right time to setup your next run, or you lose potential production time to inactivity. So you end up with people logging in for ten minutes before work and here and there through out the day to maximize there efficiency.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I don't know if I'll do any better this time around, but I realized the last couple of posts I made were somewhat peevish.

I want my presence on these forums to be good-natured, positive, constructive, and welcoming.

I absolutely agree that there need to be restrictions on how characters gain power in-game, so that the other players will respect the game and not feel like it's just one big Easy Button.

The reason I believe Offline PCs doing constructive things still fits into that restriction is because there is a finite amount of stuff the character can do with its time, and I don't see why someone who is able to sit in front of his computer for 18 hours a day 7 days a week should automatically have a significant advantage over someone who's only able to sit in front of his computer 8 hours a week, if he's lucky. (Note: I'm not saying I fall into that latter camp.)

If it's going to take 3 days to learn to craft a pair of boots (gaining the Skill), and it's going to take 4 hours to actually craft those boots (for example), then why on earth is the person who is able to sit in front of his computer for that 4 hours more entitled than someone who instructed his character to craft the boots and then logged out?

I believe the goal should be to ensure that each Character has a finite pool of Time as their most valuable resource, and that the player should be able to choose how the Character spends that time, whether they're in front of the screen or not.

Well in order to satisfy the "Achiever" type player (I'm not really an "Achiever", I'm more of a "problem solver" but I'm trying to explain the viewpoint).... the "Achievement" only has value related to the effort it took to obtain it. So if you put in a measure to circumvent the effort to obtain the Achievement...you are essentialy nullifying the game-play value that Achievement holds for them.

I have enough faith in you to understand this is not actualy your intent.... but your proposal could be percieved as saying "I want to get the same reward that a person who dedicated 20 hours of effort into obtaining it but I only want to put 2 hours of effort into it."

Believe me, as someone who has a full time job and a familiy I sympathize with your time constraints. I also believe that PFO will address our situations at least to some degree with offline skill learning serving as a time gating function to slow down "power leveling". However, as individuals I think we simply need to recognize that we should not expect to obtain the same rewards as someone who devotes more time and effort to a game. That doesn't mean we can't have fun playing the game with the time/effort we can devote to it.

The same holds true for pretty much any hobby. When I was very young, I used to spend alot of time downhill skiing, now I go maybe 1 or 2 days a year. I still retain most of what I learned about skiing...but at the same time I know my abilities aren't nearly as sharp as if I was going every weekend....nor should I expect them to be. You put in what you get out.

Note importantly, I'm not a big fan of "time sinks" and I don't agree with systems that reward people for simple "mindless" investment of time (i.e. clicking the same button for 5 hours straight)...my assumption/desire is that crafting or any other system that will provide a significant reward in PFO involves not just time but MEANINGFULL effort in terms of ongoing and active game-play decisions by the player.

If crafting involved nothing more then clicking the "Make" button for 5 hours...then by all means I'd have no problem with putting in an offline system that simulates THAT. I'm assuming/hoping the system will be considerably more involved then that.

Lantern Lodge

for me the idea of doing tedious work to craft an item is indeed worse then crafting while logged out

however i would prefer a minigame for crafting similer to mass effect, when hacking you dont wait and watch but rather you play this minigame and success means having hacked the safe but fail means you have to buy your way through with omni-gel. this is what i want my crafting to be.

this even lends to the idea that the minigame can be used to customize how the armor looks or affect the durability.(however game effects may not be good idea or they may, idk)

if they dont want me to craft to much, too quicky then give a long cooldown on my crafting skill, maybe even have that cooldown length affected by my last item made.

Lantern Lodge

as far as keeping players equal, you should be equal with players that have spent the same amount of time playing as you and not equal to players that started at the same time but spent more or less time playing.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
as far as keeping players equal, you should be equal with players that have spent the same amount of time playing as you and not equal to players that started at the same time but spent more or less time playing.

While this is traditionally true, I think they are trying to go a different route in PFO. I have seen Ryan mention PFO being peoples "alt" game that they can tab into while doing other stuff (hence the EVE-like training system). Of course, I might have misunderstood his meaning.

Lantern Lodge

i truly hope not as it is rare that i even get play a game at all it would be messed up for me to play once a week and then have to wait while my character does something.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
i truly hope not as it is rare that i even get play a game at all it would be messed up for me to play once a week and then have to wait while my character does something.

There will absolutely be things to do, possibly gaining materials/drops, possibly spying on neighbors, go out bounty hunting etc... Even with the fullest extent of ideas on automatic mining/harvesting, the most valuble and the most important items are expected to be far away from civilization. As well there will be other tasks. Leveling/skilling on the other hand is not a task that matters how long you spend on it at all.

I believe the main idea behind this, is usually you are split in time between helping yourself and helping your allience/guild etc... In the theme park genre, you just focus purely on yourself until cap, and then go to help them. In this scenerio, basically the game takes care of yourself for you, so you can go straight to working with your guild/organization.

Goblin Squad Member

DarkLightHitomi wrote:
i truly hope not as it is rare that i even get play a game at all it would be messed up for me to play once a week and then have to wait while my character does something.

I think that is the point...they want you, who only gets to play sometimes, to be able to play on par with anyone else.

I am actually confused because what we have been advocating makes what you just explained...more viable for you. In the traditional model, the person who only gets to play infrequently has to spend all that time grinding to try to keep up with friends/allies/or even just to keep the game interesting...this model which allows you set your character to accomplish things while the player is not not or can not be present, would make it so you have more time to actually have fun when you can log in.

Lantern Lodge

My fun comes from building(not grinding) my character, finding my character miles ahead of where I left off is jarring and breaks immersion. If all I cared about was raids then yeah it works but I care about rp and crafting in addition to combat. And having a jarring leveling process breaks that and if they use minigames in crafting then I'm not waiting on my character and there is no need to craft while offline.

Point is I should never wait on my character to complete something yet my character should wait on me.

The merit badges are a good comprimise on skills because I still need to go do something to access it, so playing rarely means it like any normal leveling up cause I then go do something to gain abilities.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Personally, I liked the system described in Reamde, wherein the characters would become NPCs with patterns that they'd execute while the player was offline.

First they'd return to their home area, if they weren't already there, then they'd go through a basic day/night schedule, working during the day on jobs set for them by their players. Basically, when you're offline, they're acting much like something out of the Sims.

Gives people a reason to band together and build a safe town, to react to enemy raids, etc.

PFS already has the Day Job system in place, I see this as a natural extension of that. Your character simply does his Day Job and collects a bit of gold from doing it.

Obviously this system needs limitations, if you've got a blacksmith and you don't have a decent supply of coal or iron, they'll stop working til you log back in to arrange a resupply, or someone else from your guild does.

Goblin Squad Member

No one that I have read is advocating any ability to get "miles ahead" while AFK. I am sorry I still don't see how your point is relevant.

There were three suggestions made, one, the ability to work as an guard while AFK...as soon as you log in, you start your game on guard duty right were you logged off...you are free to go play at that point. Two, the ability to work at other places such as a mine or store, you would be an NPC laborer while AFK...you go to your employment place to begin work (before you log off) and you log in at that place as well...then you go play, doing whatever you want (only with a bit more virtual money). The third, the ability to craft while AFK...obvious you have to log out at some crafting place with all the materials you need (I assume, I actually objected to this suggestion) and you log in at the same place...and obviously you stop doing whatever was automated when you tell your character to. I do not see how any of these is different than just logging out at a place and logging in at the same place (since this was the case in every example). This only difference is that the server population NPC and PC does not change when you log out and characters do not magically "disappear" when their players go AFK...and you make a bit of virtual money doing automated labor for someone who hires you.

Actually, I think there was a fourth suggestion, the ability to make a camp and stay persistent at the camp. Obviously you would log back in and your character would be at the same point.

But, as I previously mention...I really think this is a pointless discussion, Ryan seems to only comment in relevant threads...and no GW has ever commented on a thread discussing this topic. I think it is safe to assume the server demands for this negate any positive in the eyes of the devs.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
... in order to satisfy the "Achiever" type player... the "Achievement" only has value related to the effort it took to obtain it.

Well, I'm an Achiever to quite an extent, especially in the sense that I usually try to get the Loremaster achievements in WoW for doing all the quests, and to get all the Datacrons in SWTOR, and all the Lore objects, etc. However, I don't think that Offline Crafting really negates the effort to obtain the recipe itself, or the mats to create it, or the safe workplace to create it. There's a lot of room outside of just the effort to craft it, and frankly, no game I've played other than Vanguard required any effort to craft anything, other than acquiring the recipe, the mats, and then getting to the right place.

And I really think you need to seriously consider those other three factors: the recipe, the mats, and the right place. There's a world of opportunity there, and anyone who is actually interacting with the game successfully to a greater extent than I will be light years ahead of me with regard to at least one, and probably more of those three factors.

I am most decidedly not asking to be as effective as someone who plays 40 hours a week when I only play 2 hours a week. I fully accept that I will be far behind them in many, many ways. I just don't want to have to also have to spend those 2 hours I do get in engaged in mindless tedium.

If PFO creates a meaningfully interactive crafting system that is not tedium, I'll be incredibly impressed. Mini-games are great, but if you have to do them over and over for 50 levels of Blacksmithing, it's still just tedium.

On that tangent, I'd really like to see Mini-games for when you try to crit, or otherwise try to craft a masterclass creation. In the standard terms of green/blue/purple, I'd like to be able to mass produce greens with little effort, still be able to make blues offline, but have more restrictive "place" requirements and a more dedicated effort to require the mats and recipes, and then require some kind of mini-game for purples.

Lantern Lodge

I second that.


Lots of good ideas guys. Lets see if we can weave this into something workable.

Goals:

1: Provide a means for casual or busy players to advance without having to be logged in.

2: Simulate the continued socioeconomic contributions of a character who although his player isn't present would still have an effect due to living and being part of the world.

3: Reduce busy work.

4: Integrate and balance the above goals, into a cohesive system.

So here is my proposal.

I imagine that our characters are heroes, the movers and shakers of the world. Maybe you don't have the leadership feat but that doesn't mean you are not going to attract followers even if they don't call themselves that. The grand wizard of the Order of the Tenth Circle, still has an ingredient pouch that needs to be filled with some rather mundane stuff from his garden. Who has time for that? That's the helps job. Meaning we need NPCs available to do the really mundane stuff, watch the pot boil so to speak. Stuff that would previously be hand waved away anyway, or batch jobs that might only need to be supervised.

So where would these NPCs come from, where would they be available, and how much do they cost? If NPCs are a function of the nearness to heroes then they could be a tradable commodity, based on the number of hero levels in a community. To keep things in balance, prevent crowding, and further our goals especially number two, these NPC levels would only be available when off line (with exceptions for those with the leadership feat). Also NPCs would require a certain level of safety meaning they won't follow you into the wilderness or into a dungeon. So the most common place to hire NPCs would be in villages, town, and cities. Other options are available though. Fortified camps, mines, etc could also have a limited selection of offline options.

How it would work in a village, town, or city. Each player would have an NPC class reflecting his base class. If you are a wizard you would be able to spawn an Adept, if you are a Fighter you are able to spawn a warrior, etc. Everyone is able to spawn a commoner if no specialist NPC classes are needed. For every level of your character some % of your levels are available to create NPCs. Major cities would have permanent jobs available. Jobs like street sweeper (spawns a commoner, picks up dropped loot and garbage to recycle into gold for the city coffers, also increases the cities health score assuming there is one), guard duty (spawned warriors to watch the wall or patrol the streets), laborers or experts to work the back end of the leather workers shop and whatnot.

If you take a job you get paid at a set rate from the city multiplied by the number of NPC levels you have available. If there isn't 100% employment then everyone gets one share of the work available per NPC level. So if there is a pool of 10 commoner levels but only 5 are being used everyone would get paid 50%, thems the breaks. The city would have available all the committed NPC levels in a pool, that they could apply to projects (maybe it costs 200 commoner hours to build that new cathedral so putting 200 levels of commoner would get it done in one hour, 100 levels two hours and so on), or rent them out to active players (Alchemist Bill just got an entire shipment of regents to make an entire stockpile of potions but needs extra hands to finish the batch in a reasonable time frame, it's complicated work so he needs 4 level 5 adepts to finish by the end of the day, so that would be 20 levels of adept). All of this is managed by the city government. Freely donating your offline time for the benefit of your community could also be an option.

Your offline NPC levels could also be used for personal projects assuming you have a shop or lab or whatever. This way a ranger could fletch his own arrows during down time by setting his NPC levels to the task. That's just one example, but assume there are a bunch of options depending on your class and level. Editing this in here because I don't know where else to put it. Offline time could also be used for training, where you spend x gold for y time so next time you log in you gain an XP multiplier effect.

In the wilderness. NPC levels could also play a role in the wilderness, or even be traded to neighboring towns as needed like any resources. This would require a caravan though, the NPCs would be packed into carts and brought to the work site. Once there if supplies are available they could be set to work building quick fortifications (materials also brought in by caravan) or defensible mine entrances etc. NPC's would be rented like this at an hourly rate running out of money or getting them killed forfeits your deposit. Once a fort is up and running and the players occupying it can then log off and replace themselves as NPCs like in a town but with less options. A treasure chest to pay wages and armory for the guards could be looted by other teams. In any major operation you would want to have at least a couple of PCs online at all times to stand watch and rally the guards in an attack but it would be better than having to abandon your claim because it got late. In smaller operations your NPC would go without pay but in bigger ones the pay scheme would work just like in cities.

Some final thoughts and addendums. Whatever city town or village you live in setting it as your home gives it some levels of NPCs to use weather you are online or offline. Maybe 1/4 of your total levels. This would make NPCs available even during peak hours. As well as making and keeping a population important.

This system could be expanded as the primary mechanic for nation building activities. A wealthy city could buy NPC levels at a very high rate attracting a greater population, helping them to grow.

As long as the original government hasn't lost control you would wake up wherever you logged off at. If the camp, fort, or city has been destroyed you wake up where ever dead character would wake up anyway, any further penalty would be up to the developer to balance.

If the number of NPC jobs currently in operation exceeds the number in the pool then at the next tick (one hour, four, eight?) then NPCs are removed from the game. First ones to go would be those with he shortest contracts (things like basic laborer and guard would always be a one hour contract to keep things from getting gamed to bad).

That's all I got for now.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for taking the post seriously. That's a heckuva writeup!

I would only add that "3: Reduce busy work" is really the highest priority goal, from my perspective. I'm not even sure I'd have added "1: Provide a means for casual or busy players to advance without having to be logged in", except that they would "advance" by having access to stuff that usually requires enduring a lot of tedium to get in other MMOs.

Goblin Squad Member

Just saw this thread for the first time. Just want to make a quick comment on one point:

Nihimon wrote:


1. It makes characters accountable for their actions, because they can always be tracked down and retaliated against, rather than being able to log off and hide until the heat is off.

A) This goes both ways: you can always track down someone you have a grudge against for whatever reason. As an intentional griefer, you can track down someone who put a bounty on you, or someone who collected on a bounty any time you want.

B) As the bounty system works on a timer (as stated in the blog that you have a certain time to place a bounty on someone who has killed you), it provides griefers with a window to avoid the frustrations of bounties.

C) It makes people who have any kind of legitimate enemies from legitimate PvP vulnerable to cowardly revenge.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:

Just saw this thread for the first time. Just want to make a quick comment on one point:

Nihimon wrote:


1. It makes characters accountable for their actions, because they can always be tracked down and retaliated against, rather than being able to log off and hide until the heat is off.

A) This goes both ways: you can always track down someone you have a grudge against for whatever reason. As an intentional griefer, you can track down someone who put a bounty on you, or someone who collected on a bounty any time you want.

B) As the bounty system works on a timer (as stated in the blog that you have a certain time to place a bounty on someone who has killed you), it provides griefers with a window to avoid the frustrations of bounties.

C) It makes people who have any kind of legitimate enemies from legitimate PvP vulnerable to cowardly revenge.

Well one thing I have to say on both sides of this arguement. Right now there isn't a known portion of the death penelty that would grant Griefers, nor grief revengers anything for this.

It has already been stated that equiped items are exempt from looting. So appart from potential equipment damage (which we have no certainty of the rules of, nor confirmation of whether it will exist) there is nothing to lose, except possibly if you are auto harvesting, you will lose 1 trip's worth of harvested goods, that you would not have had if you werent' able to auto harvest anyway.

As far as point C. Assuming HP isn't weak enough that you can be one shot, and fights actually take a notable amount of time, one can assume that most auto tasks will be done in territory mostly inhabited and guarded by ones own team. Attacks against individuals in their own territory should be quickly countered, as any visiting murderer should be at a huge numbers disadvantage, and if they aren't, well then we are talking a full fledged war now.

Goblin Squad Member

So then what's the point of being able to hunt down a griefer?

If there's something for them to lose, why not the same for everyone else? If there's not, then why bother making someone attackable.

Whatever way you're going to read between the lines, whatever hypothetical scenario you're imagining, the door swings both ways.

Goblin Squad Member

@Blaeringr, the key bit that might make a difference to you is that griefers (flagged murderers) will not be allowed into NPC Setllements, which are apparently the only truly safe places to be. This might mean they can't unload their bags either.

As for the door swinging both ways, that won't really matter. Non-griefers won't be flagged murderers, so if they want to they can log out in 100% safe NPC Settlements, where there's no chance they will be killed while offline.


To me this idea seems worth the trouble only if there are specific benefits attached. Just having your character available to be ganked while you are in bed doesn't seem particularly useful...

Goblin Squad Member

Well, there were a lot of specific things we were asking for. Did you read the thread?

Goblin Squad Member

I think the penelty of death is far more focused on when they are going to be killed. The harmfulness of being killed is directly proportional to what you recently gained. A propor PKer's best time to strike is durring someones haul back of valubles.

Also if they did use an equipment damage system I do think that gear damage etc... will be a probable additional penalty on death, but likely an intelligent player on any side, would have a separate less valuable set of armor that he uses while his character is controlled by an AI.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

@Blaeringr, the key bit that might make a difference to you is that griefers (flagged murderers) will not be allowed into NPC Setllements, which are apparently the only truly safe places to be. This might mean they can't unload their bags either.

As for the door swinging both ways, that won't really matter. Non-griefers won't be flagged murderers, so if they want to they can log out in 100% safe NPC Settlements, where there's no chance they will be killed while offline.

They won't be allowed into NPC settlements? Even without a current bounty on them? More assumptions and more reading between the lines...

Non-griefers won't be "officially" flagged. You really think griefers won't hold grudges? You really think there won't be unofficial bounties? More assumptions...

Check the guild thread: there's already one assassination guild being organized. You think they're going to stick to official bounties only?

Even if that's true, anyone who issues a bounty against a griefer and doesn't want to deal with a stankload of revenge is going to be pretty much confined to logging out only in the 3 NPC settlements. Given the travel distances they're talking about, that sounds like a heavier burden on those being griefed than the griefers.


Nihimon wrote:
Well, there were a lot of specific things we were asking for. Did you read the thread?

To be honest, no I did not read the entire thread, but there is no rule against replying to the OP :-p

You mentioned two specific things in the original post, which were the ability to retaliate, and the ability to do things offline.

However, they can still give you the ability to accomplish things offline /without/ being persistently "in" the world 24/7.

A lot of it though seems too early to tell. If Crafting requires the same kind of attention and interface that combat does, than offline crafting seems unlikely, etc.

And going back and skimming the thread, much of what is being requested also does not require your avatar to have a persistent presence.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:


They won't be allowed into NPC settlements? Even without a current bounty on them? More assumptions and more reading between the lines...

Actually no that isn't a deep reading between the lines, that was a listed potential consequence of repeated unlawful kills that Ryan point blank said early on. Entirely seperate concept from bounties. It applies specifically to repeated offenses of kills in NPC territory.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
They won't be allowed into NPC settlements? Even without a current bounty on them? More assumptions and more reading between the lines...

Nope, just a careful reading of the blogs:

Quote:
There will be a cooldown timer imposed as well, and if the targets reenter the secured area during this time, the marshals will respond again.

Criminals will not be allowed back into NPC Settlements until their flag wears off. So, if they can't run to safety in an NPC Settlement, and they can't escape by logging out in the wilderness, they are accountable.

Goblin Squad Member

@BollaertN, that's a fine excuse, but to characterize the request as "Just having your character available to be ganked while you are in bed" when we're 100+ posts in seems kind of tacky.


Nihimon wrote:
@BollaertN, that's a fine excuse, but to characterize the request as "Just having your character available to be ganked while you are in bed" when we're 100+ posts in seems kind of tacky.

Fair enough! But in my defense I did not state I was characterizing the thread, just my opinion that having characters available for retaliation 24/7 didn't seem worth the resources.

I strongly support a robust game that allows plenty of useful things, including character progression, to occur either offline or in downtime.

Disagreement is not the same as outright dismissal.

Goblin Squad Member

BollaertN wrote:
I strongly support a robust game that allows plenty of useful things, including character progression, to occur either offline or in downtime.

Excellent! I love it when two people who started out disagreeing can find common ground :)

Goblin Squad Member

So being flagged as a criminal goes for all 3 NPC settlements? or just the one where the crime was committed?

Also, there's this:

Quote:
If you attempt to heal or buff characters who are in the act of attacking others, even if you are not a member of the same group or social organization as those you're healing, you'll be subject to the same penalties as the criminals you've chosen to associate with.

If you don't know I'm a griefer, and I talk you into healing me, then you log off for the evening just before the guards come charging around the corner after me, you're screwed ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
Also, there's this:
Quote:
If you attempt to heal or buff characters who are in the act of attacking others, even if you are not a member of the same group or social organization as those you're healing, you'll be subject to the same penalties as the criminals you've chosen to associate with.
If you don't know I'm a griefer, and I talk you into healing me, then you log off for the evening just before the guards come charging around the corner after me, you're screwed ;)

That was clearly discussed in a previous thread and Ryan said it would be impossible to "accidentally" flag. He said that if you attempted an action that would flag you, you would receive a warning and an opportunity to "not do" what you almost did.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, that would make sense. These dynamics we're discussing could of course dramatically change depending on what player settlements will look like and what we're able to do with them.

Qadira Goblinworks Executive Founder

TheeGravedigger wrote:

Personally, I liked the system described in Reamde, wherein the characters would become NPCs with patterns that they'd execute while the player was offline.

First they'd return to their home area, if they weren't already there, then they'd go through a basic day/night schedule, working during the day on jobs set for them by their players. Basically, when you're offline, they're acting much like something out of the Sims.

Gives people a reason to band together and build a safe town, to react to enemy raids, etc.

PFS already has the Day Job system in place, I see this as a natural extension of that. Your character simply does his Day Job and collects a bit of gold from doing it.

Obviously this system needs limitations, if you've got a blacksmith and you don't have a decent supply of coal or iron, they'll stop working til you log back in to arrange a resupply, or someone else from your guild does.

This is more like I was originally thinking when I brought this up. Your characters are always there, doing their own thing, like normal people, and then BAM! they are possessed by some 15 year old kid who decides to make them run around naked for an hour acting a fool (or a more responsible person who leads them to act heroically). Then when the possessing spirit logs off, and they find themselves naked in the middle of the woods with blood smeared all over their faces, they (the characters, not the players) can go WTF?! and try and make their way back home, and resume their normal schedule.

When you are logged on, your character has a 'wild hare up his ass' and goes off adventuring and heroing (or villianing), otherwise, it performs basic Sim duties like tending to its home, sleeping, and a day job. Maybe occasionally socializes with neighbor Sims at the tavern.

Would provide your character no in game benefit to your specific toon, but would make ganking a settlement or structure by waiting until everyone logs off at 5AM harder to do. Provides security, persistence, and an illusion of realism.

Their real adventuring gear would be placed in limbo, and they would be outfitted as per their day job or social status allows. So a character who lived in a shack in the ghetto would be seen in a Peasant's Outfit, maybe in the evenings, but in the livery of the merchant whom he works for during the day. But when his player logs on, he pulls out his breastplate and masterwork battleaxe, heads of into the nearby woods, and tracks down the bandits who once robbed him (or something).

Goblin Squad Member

The offline training that is already in place is all that is needed. You offline train to get access to the things that require usage to skill up in. IE you offline train to unlock greatsword usage, then raise your skill in great sword by whacking a tree while you are online. And while you are whacking the tree you are training in woodcrafing so the next day you can do stuff with all the trees you beat the hell out of.

If we are able to do too much offline you start to diminish what is available to do when you are online. And it shouldn't be used as a method to do things you don't like doing. If you aren't willing to trudge through the mud and rotting organic debris, you don't get the super-awesome-sword-of-kill-everyone in the center of the swamp.

I am all for letting the character read a book while offline, I'm not for allowing pseudo-botting while offline. You can hire NPC's to do stuff while you are offline but it should cost gold, and not be something that is fiscally responsible to do every night you log off, until you have mountains of wealth.

This game will bleed subs like crazy if there is a 30 minute ritual you have to follow every time you log out, just to make sure you don't get killed while you sleep and your character is stuck in game.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
If you don't know I'm a griefer, and I talk you into healing me, then you log off for the evening just before the guards come charging around the corner after me, you're screwed ;)

More reading between the lines, and making assumptions, I see?

*teases Blaeringr mercilessly*

I see KitNyx has already pointed out that Ryan directly spoke to this, in a response to my question actually.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:

The offline training that is already in place is all that is needed. You offline train to get access to the things that require usage to skill up in. IE you offline train to unlock greatsword usage, then raise your skill in great sword by whacking a tree while you are online. And while you are whacking the tree you are training in woodcrafing so the next day you can do stuff with all the trees you beat the hell out of.

If we are able to do too much offline you start to diminish what is available to do when you are online. And it shouldn't be used as a method to do things you don't like doing. If you aren't willing to trudge through the mud and rotting organic debris, you don't get the super-awesome-sword-of-kill-everyone in the center of the swamp.

I am all for letting the character read a book while offline, I'm not for allowing pseudo-botting while offline. You can hire NPC's to do stuff while you are offline but it should cost gold, and not be something that is fiscally responsible to do every night you log off, until you have mountains of wealth.

This game will bleed subs like crazy if there is a 30 minute ritual you have to follow every time you log out, just to make sure you don't get killed while you sleep and your character is stuck in game.

I can partly agree and partly disagree. Some things aren't liked to be done because they are tedius and monotonous. IMO if such a system is in place there can be major combinations of things for materials, there can be safe easy to gather materials, and high value materials that either require a good amount of money, or risking life and limb out in the middle of the wilderness. Players should not necessarally be forced to mindlessly click a rock in safe territory 500 times, but on the other hand the dangerous materials guarded by bandits and whatever else could require you to stick your neck out, and obviously not be done offline.

Things like guard duty I could see numerous benefits to. It lessens the impact if players are atacked at a time when a majority of their members are offline, without making them super powered at the times when they are all online. (note I said lessens not eliminates). As if you had direct hired NPCs, they would still be active when the players are online, while if players are the NPC guards, they vanish when the players are on to defend (well not vanish but become the player). So while the NPCs will likely be less effective, at least the numbers will be closer.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nathan Nasif wrote:
... your character has a 'wild hare up his ass' and goes off adventuring and heroing...

What's up, Doc? I always thought it was "hair".

I'm going to have disturbing dreams tonight...

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:


I can partly agree and partly disagree. Some things aren't liked to be done because they are tedius and monotonous. IMO if such a system is in place there can be major combinations of things for materials, there can be safe easy to gather materials, and high value materials that either require a good amount of money, or risking life and limb out in the middle of the wilderness. Players should not necessarally be forced to mindlessly click a rock in safe territory 500 times, but on the other hand the dangerous materials guarded by bandits and whatever else could require you to stick your neck out, and obviously not be done offline.

Things like guard duty I could see numerous benefits to. It lessens the impact if players...

A development goal would be to not make things tedious and monotonous. Someone mentioned fishing, if its an activity that is enjoyable to some, and others just don't want to do it, they shouldn't get the reward at the end. And there should be things like that in the game where some people enjoy it, some people are impartial, and others hate it. Otherwise you get a boring and not very diverse game.

I am 100% against any player automation. So I will never agree with something that is done by the player-character while the user is offline. If you don't want to gather the easy materials, hire some npc's to do it. There should NOT be any free actions outside of the confirmed offline training that are done while the user is offline, or even AFK.

The user should always be doing something, you should never be stopping to wait, if you are crafting an item, there should be an interactive mini-game. If you want something done for you, you should have to pay for it and the price should increase faster than the value of the output.

I don't like the guard duty idea because that goes back to what i said in my last post, it creates a ritual for going offline. This game can NEVER ask us to put it ahead of our real lives, or inconvenience us because of them. The strength of a settlement/kingdom should be judged by how much money they generate. The more money you have, the better your walls/automated defenses are. Just because a player is part of a settlement doesn't mean they are affiliated with the ruling group, they could just be renting living/storage space and have no combat training.

Qadira Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:
Nathan Nasif wrote:
... your character has a 'wild hare up his ass' and goes off adventuring and heroing...

What's up, Doc? I always thought it was "hair".

I'm going to have disturbing dreams tonight...

I think it was originally a 'wild hare' which would make much more sense for why your running about all willy-nilly, than a wild hair (which might make you scratch your rear).

Goblin Squad Member

@Nathan Nasif, I think you're actually mixing metaphors. There's an expression "to go off on a wild hare", which conjures images of of chasing a wild jackrabbit. Then there's an express of "getting a wild hair [up his ass]" which conjures images of leaping up into action for no apparent reason.

I am extremely doubtful that there was ever common usage referring to having a rabbit up your butt.


Nihimon wrote:

@Nathan Nasif, I think you're actually mixing metaphors. There's an expression "to go off on a wild hare", which conjures images of of chasing a wild jackrabbit. Then there's an express of "getting a wild hair [up his ass]" which conjures images of leaping up into action for no apparent reason.

I am extremely doubtful that there was ever common usage referring to having a rabbit up your butt.

You assume the ass in question doesn't refer to a donkey! :-p

Goblin Squad Member

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I like the idea of having NPC's (henchmen/hirelings) that are available to perform certain mundane tasks involved in "kingdom building" type activities.

My preference would be to NOT tie them to any sort of "offline character representation system" but rather just a normal function of the "Kingdom/Community Building" aspect of gameplay.

Essentialy it could work something like this. Each player built community could generate 2 ratings... 1) A "Community Safety" Rating which would be an abstraction of how secure the people in the community were from hostile action (either from monsters or opposing factions at war) and 2) An Economic Rating which would be some amalgam of availble jobs and perhaps gross product of the community or value of the buildings/businesses within it.

Players in the community who wanted the benefits of an NPC laborer to perform some mundane task for them (not generaly the type of thing PC's would be required for) could place a "Job Posting" for the type of labor they wanted done along with the Rate they were willing to pay per that unit of time (say 1 week or a month, whatever the game set as a standard work period for NPC). Whether an NPC would come to fill that job for them would be dependant upon the Safety Rating and the Economic Rating of the community in question. Areas of the world which weren't "Safe" or which didn't have much "Economic Opportunity" wouldn't be likely to attracct much immigration (just as in real life).

Players who wanted to benefit from NPC labor would basicaly have 2 options. They could work to actively protect and patrol thier lands in order to make them safer and more attractive to NPC to immigrate 2 OR they could potentialy work to offset some of the hazards by offering extremely high rates of pay which could attract some NPC despite the danger due to the reward offered. Thus they could tweak the likelihood of NPC's being available...but not directly control them. Long established "safe" communities where there was alot of wealth availble could probably get away with paying lower NPC wages then the "frontier towns".

I believe such a system would have several advantages over an "offline character representation system".

- It would allow the Developers a greater degree of control in making sure that both the Game World and the Infrastructure which supports it could handle the MOB/NPC population then a system which was ENTIRELY dependant upon player behavior (i.e. mobs being active in the world because that player was offline but represented).

- It would provide a money-sink in terms of the NPC laberours salary, which is essential to a healthy game economy....rather then simply an extra source of wealth generating behavior that would result from offline-player-activity.

- It would provide an enhanced game-play elements. Rather then simply having another resource availble for the player to manipulate (thier offline time)... Players would have to make active game-play decisions/actions in order to affect thier Kingdom-Building activities (i.e. invest play time to make a place "safer" or invest wealth... which likely was generated from play time...in order to provide for NPC saleries). It SHOULD be possible for smart players to realize some NET positive wealth gain from thier NPC hires...but this would involve both some strategy and some luck...since the NPC's salary involves overhead costs... if you weren't managing them efficiently or estimating the market value of thier labour well...you could end up LOOSING your investment in thier saleries.... this would also be subject to interference/competetion by other factions...as they could disrupt your NPC laborers activities directly by attacking them...or make it more expensive for you to attract laborers (by reducing the "safety" rating of your community by engaging in hostile actions in it's territory)....or if the total availble number of NPC's immigrating to the region were fixed, by economic competition through salary bidding wars, or working to make thier communities more lucretive, thus more attractive to NPC laborers.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:


A development goal would be to not make things tedious and monotonous. Someone mentioned fishing, if its an activity that is enjoyable to some, and others just don't want to do it, they shouldn't get the reward at the end. And there should be things like that in the game where some people enjoy it, some people are impartial, and others hate it. Otherwise you get a boring and not very diverse game.

I am 100% against any player automation. So I will never agree with something that is done by the player-character while the user is offline. If you don't want to gather the easy materials, hire some npc's to do it. There should NOT be any free actions outside of the confirmed offline training that are done while the user is offline, or even AFK.

The user should always be doing something, you should never be stopping to wait, if you are crafting an item, there should be an interactive mini-game. If you want something done for you, you should have to pay for it and the price should increase faster than the value of the output.

I don't like the guard duty idea because that goes back to what i said in my last post, it creates a ritual for going offline. This game can NEVER ask us to put it ahead of our real lives, or inconvenience us because of them. The...

Just thought of a clearer way to state my stance:

No offline activities, other than the training we have been told about, that advances your character in any aspect. If NPC's are offline doing work, it's not work that helps your character advance, outside of logging on to have 10,000 arrows for your bow.


@ GrumpyMel

I though the very same thing before writing my proposal. The reason I didn't want to make it entirely money based is like in real life it's too easy for one successful person/group to end up dominating.

Also in every D&D campaign I have played there has always been things your character does during down time, and I wanted to simulate some of that also. This includes stuff that would otherwise have to be hand waved away anyway becoming its own game. If you have ever seen a blacksmith working even a simple horse shoe takes a good ten minutes to pound out using traditional techniques, that's assuming the forge is already hot, stuff like that.

I also wanted to tie NPCs to player population, that way you don't get very well funded "Player cities" that are really just a half dozen wealthy individuals dominating everyone else.

Also in my system the wealth redistribution serves a meaningful purpose. Instead of being just another sink it's another economy. For the newer players who can't afford or are too low level to raid fat loots in dungeons, the small NPC wages actually mean something. Even earning just enough for a couple heal potions for your next adventure can make a major difference at lower levels. While higher level players would be making more than the lower level players it would most likely still be a pittance compared to their online activities meaning they would instead use their offline time doing things like training or whatnot. As you progress in levels offline activities should become less and less valuable compared to online activities. Plus it would make access to labor much more meaningful to city governments. Offering high wages to get more newbies in your town where they could mix with established players instead of being delegated to the newbie helpers handing out charity.

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