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Fascism Alive and Well in 2012


Off-Topic Discussions

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Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Thanks to Ari Marmell for the link; I echo his sentiments: WTF?

Fascism Alive and Well in Arizona

As a sworn defender of the US Constitution, I'm rather disgusted by this development.


What? What's next? Banning Asian American studies? African American studies? Now, I can get the whole Latino author thing. I think it's unacceptable, and I don't support it, but I get why they did it. Native American authors, though? That's just plain insulting. Haven't we done enough to them already? What possible justification is there for that particular move? The Latino thing is understandable (though completely wrong) do to them being immigrants, but Native Americans sure as Hell aren't immigrants.

Qadira

8 people marked this as a favorite.

Apparently the current residents of Arizona don't wish to be reminded that they were once a part of Mexico...

We could always give them back, as a gesture of good faith.

Andoran

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

They even banned Shakespeare. Anything that discusses oppression, racism or culturalism as a central theme. Talk about pots and kettles!

Qadira

Quote:
Administrators told Mexican-American studies teachers to stay away from any class units where “race, ethnicity and oppression are central themes."

Well, they certainly don't want their young residents educated in such a way that they view their state's immigration laws and the racist actions of their sheriffs with any sort of criticism or outright disdain.


Shadowborn wrote:
Quote:
Administrators told Mexican-American studies teachers to stay away from any class units where “race, ethnicity and oppression are central themes."
Well, they certainly don't want their young residents educated in such a way that they view their state's immigration laws and the racist actions of their sheriffs with any sort of criticism or outright disdain.

So, what are they supposed to do? Teach kids that everything is all good and rosy and always has been? Yea, that'll prepare them for adulthood.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Preparing for a "holy s~@@" as soon as I check out other sources.

Yep, "holy s&!+" is a go.

HOLY S$*#

Salon
NY Daily News
Fox

Okay I'm done.

Qadira

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Quote:
Administrators told Mexican-American studies teachers to stay away from any class units where “race, ethnicity and oppression are central themes."
Well, they certainly don't want their young residents educated in such a way that they view their state's immigration laws and the racist actions of their sheriffs with any sort of criticism or outright disdain.
So, what are they supposed to do? Teach kids that everything is all good and rosy and always has been? Yea, that'll prepare them for adulthood.

Exactly. Grooming young people to be compliant and maintain the status quo is important.


Shadowborn wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Quote:
Administrators told Mexican-American studies teachers to stay away from any class units where “race, ethnicity and oppression are central themes."
Well, they certainly don't want their young residents educated in such a way that they view their state's immigration laws and the racist actions of their sheriffs with any sort of criticism or outright disdain.
So, what are they supposed to do? Teach kids that everything is all good and rosy and always has been? Yea, that'll prepare them for adulthood.
Exactly. Grooming young people to be compliant and maintain the status quo is important.

What happens when they hit adulthood and see what's really going on?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Did the state superintendent really compare Mexican-American studies to Hitler Youth indoctrination? Seriously? Seriously? Who in their right mind let that man take office?

Qadira

Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Quote:
Administrators told Mexican-American studies teachers to stay away from any class units where “race, ethnicity and oppression are central themes."
Well, they certainly don't want their young residents educated in such a way that they view their state's immigration laws and the racist actions of their sheriffs with any sort of criticism or outright disdain.
So, what are they supposed to do? Teach kids that everything is all good and rosy and always has been? Yea, that'll prepare them for adulthood.
Exactly. Grooming young people to be compliant and maintain the status quo is important.
What happens when they hit adulthood and see what's really going on?

That's the beauty of it. They won't. They'll just blame all their problems on the Mexicans and vote for anyone that will help keep them out of the state. It's genius.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shadowborn wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
Quote:
Administrators told Mexican-American studies teachers to stay away from any class units where “race, ethnicity and oppression are central themes."
Well, they certainly don't want their young residents educated in such a way that they view their state's immigration laws and the racist actions of their sheriffs with any sort of criticism or outright disdain.
So, what are they supposed to do? Teach kids that everything is all good and rosy and always has been? Yea, that'll prepare them for adulthood.
Exactly. Grooming young people to be compliant and maintain the status quo is important.
What happens when they hit adulthood and see what's really going on?
That's the beauty of it. They won't. They'll just blame all their problems on the Mexicans and vote for anyone that will help keep them out of the state. It's genius.

I agree with this. I really, really, really want to disagree, but I can't.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just gonna camp here until I hear some good "justifications."

Andoran

Good Lord! How stupid! What really pisses me off is that it's going to be even more diffficult for me, as a conservative, to have principled discussions with liberals. Thanks to this yahoo, it'll give liberal bigots even more of an excuse to write me off as an ignorant racist.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
Quote wrote:
Students said the banned books were seized...out of their hands...Crying, students said it was like Nazi Germany, and they were unable to sleep since it happened.

Funny, regardless of what books were banned.

Andoran

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
proudgeek159 wrote:
Good Lord! How stupid! What really pisses me off is that it's going to be even more diffficult for me, as a conservative, to have principled discussions with liberals. Thanks to this yahoo, it'll give liberal bigots even more of an excuse to write me off as an ignorant racist.

Because calling liberals bigots is obviously a sign of wanting an intelligent and mature discussion. I'll have to remember that.

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Nothing scares me more as a banned book list. Once the state tells us what to believe democracy is over.

I am up here in Canada but this still frightens me to no end. First SOPA and now this.

Hitler was democratically elected...and apparently his ghost is roaming the halls of Tucson's schools!


Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Did the state superintendent really compare Mexican-American studies to Hitler Youth indoctrination? Seriously? Seriously? Who in their right mind let that man take office?
GentleFist wrote:
Hitler was democratically elected...and apparently his ghost is roaming the halls of Tucson's schools!

Yup, that is pretty crazy, making comparisons like that.

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Probably a good example of why states should not have sole control of education.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
pres man wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Did the state superintendent really compare Mexican-American studies to Hitler Youth indoctrination? Seriously? Seriously? Who in their right mind let that man take office?
GentleFist wrote:
Hitler was democratically elected...and apparently his ghost is roaming the halls of Tucson's schools!
Yup, that is pretty crazy, making comparisons like that.

I purposely avoid comparing current politicians to Hitler because I consider it in poor taste. Using Hitler in this example serves more as a warning than calling Tucson politicians Hitlers.

Thank you for pointing it out, I should have read my post more carefully before I submitted it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ok the book banning is getting everyone hot under the collar and rightly so.
However the whole ethnic studies thing was the problem. From MY understanding of the reading of the articles the ethnic studies program was basically promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians.

The one paragraph in the articles that really struck home for me was the fact that the curriculum was not being approved by the local board or the state for that matter.
It was the STATE of Arizona that stopped the ethnic studies program all the local board was doing was enforcing that decision.

also : The state's top school chief says that makes it in violation of state law because all materials being taught in Arizona classrooms must get the local board's seal of approval. In fact, his office launched an investigation that found that erroneous facts were being taught to the students and the classes promoted "racial resentment."

but yet all anyone else can talk about is the banned books?

The example I would like to use as a point of perspective is from an old after school special I saw as a kid about a well loved history teacher that was very effective at reaching his students. Then one day the mother of one of the students read what was being taught to her son and had a fit because this well loved and respected teacher was promoting a neo-nazi agenda and teaching that the Holocaust was a lie. Naturally in afterschool special fashion the problems were solved in an hour but the point was the teacher was spinning his own agenda by distorting known historical facts and educating his students to hate a different ethnic group.

from what I have read all the state has done is stopped a similar thing from occurring here.

DISCLAIMER* nope I'm not trolling, not trying to flame, I'm not racist or anti-anything. I honestly don't see what the big deal is. If the students want to continue reading the books themselves go to a library or order it.

Cheliax

Steven Tindall wrote:

Ok the book banning is getting everyone hot under the collar and rightly so.

However the whole ethnic studies thing was the problem. From MY understanding of the reading of the articles the ethnic studies program was basically promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians.

I agree we should ensure students are taught the facts without the screen of a dangerous agenda. However, AZ's answer seems a bit excessive. Banning any mention of racial or ethnic oppression? IMO, any resulting angst towards Caucasians is the result of poor teaching, not the material.

In high school I was required to take an African-American History course. Part of the course included mention of white civil rights activists. The point of the course was to prevent broad generalizations that might lead to racial intolerance towards anyone, including Caucasians. What the Hell happened in Arizona?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

The "dangerous and radical" La Raza website.
[heavy snark]We definitely don't want kids being taught the anti-American ideals espoused by this group.
Ideals like equality between the races, Hispanic and Native American empowerment and history told from a Hispanic and Native American view point.[/heavy snark]

Shadow Lodge

11 people marked this as a favorite.

Fascism is a bit overused don't you think? Lets not godwin this out of the gate.

The fact is that American "history" as taught in high schools is in fact a unifying cultural mythology rather than anything that would remotely resemble a critical examination of events in our past so we could learn from it. It far more closely resembles a creation myth with the infailably white washed (literally) founding fathers, whose saintly behavior and wisdom was far more than we modern mortal could dare to comprehend, much less achieve, draw the constitution from the very mind of the creator and enshrine its principles into the soul of the nation while fighting against the evil empire. (Washington, I AM YOUR FATHER)

Anything that upsets this mythology is treated with the same emotional outrage as any other heresy: its a visceral, from the gut hatred that will brook no argument, for the very act of arguing against it is itself a sign of heresy. It gets very hard to tell how much of this opposition is the simple, fervent and honest opposition of a true believer who buys their own malarky, how much is the simple inertia of the status quo, and how much is an actual plot to keep the sheep in line.

Steven Tindal wrote:
However the whole ethnic studies thing was the problem. From MY understanding of the reading of the articles the ethnic studies program was basically promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians.

Honest American history tends to do that. Its not very pleasant reading. No spin required. I think the trick to keep it from leading to hatred is to show how the powerful have abused ALL of the not powerful, not just the people with different skin colors.


Appalled? Yes. Surprised? Not really.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Steven Tindall wrote:

Ok the book banning is getting everyone hot under the collar and rightly so.

However the whole ethnic studies thing was the problem. From MY understanding of the reading of the articles the ethnic studies program was basically promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians.

The one paragraph in the articles that really struck home for me was the fact that the curriculum was not being approved by the local board or the state for that matter.
It was the STATE of Arizona that stopped the ethnic studies program all the local board was doing was enforcing that decision.

also : The state's top school chief says that makes it in violation of state law because all materials being taught in Arizona classrooms must get the local board's seal of approval. In fact, his office launched an investigation that found that erroneous facts were being taught to the students and the classes promoted "racial resentment."

but yet all anyone else can talk about is the banned books?

The example I would like to use as a point of perspective is from an old after school special I saw as a kid about a well loved history teacher that was very effective at reaching his students. Then one day the mother of one of the students read what was being taught to her son and had a fit because this well loved and respected teacher was promoting a neo-nazi agenda and teaching that the Holocaust was a lie. Naturally in afterschool special fashion the problems were solved in an hour but the point was the teacher was spinning his own agenda by distorting known historical facts and educating his students to hate a different ethnic group.

from what I have read all the state has done is stopped a similar thing from occurring here.

DISCLAIMER* nope I'm not trolling, not trying to flame, I'm not racist or anti-anything. I honestly don't see what the big deal is. If the students want to continue reading the books themselves go to a library or order it.

I remember that after school special as well. The problem with your example is the teacher was teaching contrary to the facts and there is no evidence of that happening in Tucson.

Once you get into the interpretation of Historical facts, History becomes quite subjective. For example, we know Columbus visited the new world, that is fact. To the europeans, this opened up the new world. To the people who were already here, it was the beginning of the end of their way of life. Both interpretations are correct but for the most part, only the first one is taught. Does that mean the second interpretation is not valid because most people benefited from the first interpretation?

I fully support the idea that racial resentment has no place in an educational institution however banning it will only make it stronger.


Steven Tindall wrote:

The example I would like to use as a point of perspective is from an old after school special I saw as a kid about a well loved history teacher that was very effective at reaching his students. Then one day the mother of one of the students read what was being taught to her son and had a fit because this well loved and respected teacher was promoting a neo-nazi agenda and teaching that the Holocaust was a lie. Naturally in afterschool special fashion the problems were solved in an hour but the point was the teacher was spinning his own agenda by distorting known historical facts and educating his students to hate a different ethnic group.

from what I have read all the state has done is stopped a similar thing from occurring here.

That's your takeaway? Really?


GentleFist,
True the teaching was not contrary to the facts but it was presented in an "erroneous" fashion. Granted that term is subjective but then again isn't everything.
I think the state stepped in once they realized that the curriculum was bordering on being out of control and was leading to a radical agenda.

Maybe it's a little difficult for me to understand because I have never taken any type of ethnic studies and can't see the need for them.

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Steven,
Yes you are right everything is subjective. If the school board was just concerned with the curriculum there were plenty of other options to consider. Banning books with a point of view contrary to the accepted norm is counter productive and quite frankly dangerous.

I challenge you Steven to take an honest, long look at history from a different perspective. If you look at the Columbus example from the side of the indigenous people you might understand why they feel the need to study history from the perspective they have been.

Ethnic studies is very important as it provides a much needed additional side to learn from. As a caucasian male who's family left the Ukraine in 1917, my perspective is naturally skewed in that direction. I avoid that perspective being the only one I think about by reading books with opinions contrary to my opinions.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:

The example I would like to use as a point of perspective is from an old after school special I saw as a kid about a well loved history teacher that was very effective at reaching his students. Then one day the mother of one of the students read what was being taught to her son and had a fit because this well loved and respected teacher was promoting a neo-nazi agenda and teaching that the Holocaust was a lie. Naturally in afterschool special fashion the problems were solved in an hour but the point was the teacher was spinning his own agenda by distorting known historical facts and educating his students to hate a different ethnic group.

from what I have read all the state has done is stopped a similar thing from occurring here.

That's your takeaway? Really?

I take it you have a difference of opinion?

Granted the example cited may have not been the best or the most relevant but it was the first thing that came to mind about how educators can influence young minds in disastrous and destructive ways if they are not monitored. Which is what the state was attempting to do here.
Again everyone is upset over the banning of books but there are certain things that young minds do not need to be exposed to until they mature and can decide for themselves whether to accept it as something they embrace or not.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Steven Tindall wrote:
Granted the example cited may have not been the best or the most relevant but it was the first thing that came to mind about how educators can influence young minds in disastrous and destructive ways if they are not monitored

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

As far as I'm concerned the harm is being done by the pretentious pap being served up as history in the regulation curriculum. The teachers are neither delving into topics outside of their required sphere nor teaching anything counter-factual (such as the holocaust denier). They're giving a realer picture of what actually happened, which is their job.


The claim that the ethnic studies programs were "promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians" comes from the Arizona legislature's justification for the law. The Arizona legislature is not known for being exceptionally racially tolerant...


GentleFist,

Yes you are right everything is subjective. If the school board was just concerned with the curriculum there were plenty of other options to consider. Banning books with a point of view contrary to the accepted norm is counter productive and quite frankly dangerous./quote wrote:

If it is done haphazardly or with a set agenda then yes but even you have to admit that young minds should not be exposed to dangerous ideas until they can handle them. While mein comph may be ok for a college level reading study it would not be something to share with high school students. High school students are not adults, some care must still be taken with their learning. Granted they bare near adults but if we can say no to pornography, no to gratuitous violence and other ideas that they "should" not be exposed to then why can't we say the same thing about potentially radical and or racist views. You won't let a high school student drink,smoke,or other things that can wreck their health so whats different about wrecking their minds.

I challenge you Steven to take an honest, long look at history from a different perspective. If you look at the Columbus example from the side of the indigenous people you might understand why they feel the need to study history from the perspective they have been./quote wrote:

I have not studied ethnic studies but the American history lessons from high school were very good and fair minded.
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.

Ethnic studies is very important as it provides a much needed additional side to learn from. As a Caucasian male who's family left the Ukraine in 1917, my perspective is naturally skewed in that direction. I avoid that perspective being the only one I think about by reading books with opinions contrary to my opinions./quote wrote:

I applaud your fair mindedness and for the most part share it but some exceptions have to be made. In the interest of fair mindedness I will read many things but like computers what goes into a mind is what come out of a mind. garbage in = garbage out. I have no interest in reading hate literature from the Klan,the Nazis, the black panthers or visiting websites that show peaceful Islamist beheading someone for sorcery or adultery or because their gay.
I have been exposed to hate more than I would like to be whether it was the Klan marching through my home town or the introduction of aids being a plague sent by God to destroy the wickedness of homosexuals or any number of other examples I'm just tired of hate and I want it to stop. The best way I know to do that is to stop teaching it.


Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.

Andoran

proudgeek159 wrote:
Good Lord! How stupid! What really pisses me off is that it's going to be even more diffficult for me, as a conservative, to have principled discussions with liberals. Thanks to this yahoo, it'll give liberal bigots even more of an excuse to write me off as an ignorant racist.

That, or they can just reference your post...


2 people marked this as a favorite.

So we should stop teaching about the Klan, the Nazis, etc too?
Don't mention slavery or Jim Crow. Better not to let the kids know there were people living in the Americas before Columbus found it.

After all, they didn't do a lot with the place. That makes it okay that we slaughtered them with diseases and with guns. I suppose the Africans (SubSaharan anyway, we'll leave an out for Egypt) weren't really doing anything useful either, so why shouldn't Europeans take over Africa as a colonial empire and ship millions here as slaves.

If "They didn't do a whole lot with the place" is your attitude, I can see why you might think teaching the truth is "promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians".


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Steven Tindall wrote:
They didn't do a whole lot with the place.

That seems a very narrow perspective with which to apply value. I think it is potentially dangerous too. What have you done with your life? Are you sure it is enough to merit any value?

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.

After Columbus came to the New World, the Europeans promptly built Gingerbread Houses for all of the native people. The End.


Heymitch wrote:
After Columbus came to the New World, the Europeans promptly built Gingerbread Houses for all of the native people. The End.

It's true! He was the Indians' best friend!


Shadowborn wrote:

Apparently the current residents of Arizona don't wish to be reminded that they were once a part of Mexico...

We could always give them back, as a gesture of good faith.

THIS

Seriously, what does it produce? Its useless land. Teach 'em a lesson and give it back. Just make Puerto Rico a state so we don't have to modify our flags.

We should probably give back Texas too......


MarkusTay wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:

Apparently the current residents of Arizona don't wish to be reminded that they were once a part of Mexico...

We could always give them back, as a gesture of good faith.

THIS

Seriously, what does it produce? Its useless land. Teach 'em a lesson and give it back. Just make Puerto Rico a state so we don't have to modify our flags.

We should probably give back Texas too......

It produces a buffer region so the rest of the US doesn't have to deal with the crap that is going on in Northern Mexico.


pres man wrote:


It produces a buffer region so the rest of the US doesn't have to deal with the crap that is going on in Northern Mexico.

...due to the demand for drugs in the US.


MarkusTay wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:

Apparently the current residents of Arizona don't wish to be reminded that they were once a part of Mexico...

We could always give them back, as a gesture of good faith.

THIS

Seriously, what does it produce? Its useless land. Teach 'em a lesson and give it back. Just make Puerto Rico a state so we don't have to modify our flags.

We should probably give back Texas too......

Heavy Snark!!

We can't give up Texas( too much oil) Arizona no big lose except that's yet another border the illegals can cross over from.
End Snark.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
pres man wrote:
It produces a buffer region so the rest of the US doesn't have to deal with the crap that is going on in Northern Mexico.
...due to the demand for drugs in the US.

And?

I mean, I might want to get cheap products from China, it doesn't mean I want their toxic water that they don't bother to clean being dumped in my back yard. I prefer having a buffer region to stay away from the negative consequences of their poor decisions and just get the results I want.

That is why we shouldn't give up those border states, they provide a buffer region from those negative consequences.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.

The main facts are he was trying to find a better route to india for more wealth. He hit some place that had been forgotten after the vikings had been driven out. He wasn't going back empty handed so he took what he could as proof that he should be given more money. Heck from what the historians are saying now he didn't even hit north America proper he hit Cuba if that's to be believed.

Laying the blame for genocide on him is really rather unfair. He was an explorer in a time when people were desperate to know more about the world around them rather than accepting it was flat. Any other motives ascribed to the man for either good or ill shouldn't be.


10 people marked this as a favorite.
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.

This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day


2 people marked this as a favorite.
pres man wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
pres man wrote:
It produces a buffer region so the rest of the US doesn't have to deal with the crap that is going on in Northern Mexico.
...due to the demand for drugs in the US.

And?

I mean, I might want to get cheap products from China, it doesn't mean I want their toxic water that they don't bother to clean being dumped in my back yard. I prefer having a buffer region to stay away from the negative consequences of their poor decisions and just get the results I want.

That is why we shouldn't give up those border states, they provide a buffer region from those negative consequences.

Of course, if they bothered to clean the toxic water, the products wouldn't be as cheap. We're fine with the negative consequences as long we don't have to see them directly. When they start to spill over onto us, we b@@#! about other people's poor decisions.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

High School history should be, as Steve seems to be saying, age appropriate. To me that means it is a mix of celebratory patriotism and a look at some of the dark truths in America's past. High school students aren't idiots, mostly anyway, it is possible to present the heroic side of America's founding fathers while noting that many of them were slave owners, and thereby implicated in all of the ugliness, racism and cruelty of the plantation slave system.

As for the idea that the Native Americans didn't do too much with the country prior to the arrival of the Europeans, this is one of the key arguments used to justify dispossessing the Indians of their lands.

I recommend, for those who are inclined to explore this further, Jared Diamonds fine book "Guns, Germs and Steel." He asks the question, in effect, of why it is that Europeans sailed across the oceans to conquer the new world, rather than Native Americans sailing across the Atlantic to conquer Europe?


thejeff wrote:

So we should stop teaching about the Klan, the Nazis, etc too?

Don't mention slavery or Jim Crow. Better not to let the kids know there were people living in the Americas before Columbus found it.

After all, they didn't do a lot with the place. That makes it okay that we slaughtered them with diseases and with guns. I suppose the Africans (SubSaharan anyway, we'll leave an out for Egypt) weren't really doing anything useful either, so why shouldn't Europeans take over Africa as a colonial empire and ship millions here as slaves.

If "They didn't do a whole lot with the place" is your attitude, I can see why you might think teaching the truth is "promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians".

Whats the other proposal? Have everybody feel horrible about stuff that took place hundreds of years ago? Have every modern day Egyptian pay reparations to the state of Israel for the well documented case of slavery thousands of years ago or what about the horrible slaughter of this empire on that group. The list goes on and on throughout the history of the planet. Empires rise and fall but the world keeps on turning.

How could our forefathers, who were no wiser than anyone else of their time have know what was right and better unless they made the mistakes and learned from them and then taught their children and grandchildren what they had learned. It amazes me how harshly we judge the founders of our nation with such harshness based on a fairly recent doctrine of political correctness where everybody's opinion matters except the ones that disagree with the correct ideas.

As far as the slavery bit, everybody was buying at that time and if you'll look back you'll see that the Africans were selling their defeated foes into slavery. The institution was their long before America and ran it's course when it was realized just how horrid it was.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steven Tindall wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.

The main facts are he was trying to find a better route to india for more wealth. He hit some place that had been forgotten after the vikings had been driven out. He wasn't going back empty handed so he took what he could as proof that he should be given more money. Heck from what the historians are saying now he didn't even hit north America proper he hit Cuba if that's to be believed.

Laying the blame for genocide on him is really rather unfair. He was an explorer in a time when people were desperate to know more about the world around them rather than accepting it was flat. Any other motives ascribed to the man for either good or ill shouldn't be.

You need to go back and relearn your history. Columbus was not looking for India (which was called Hindustan in those days), he was looking for the East Indies, an island chain. He first landed in the Bahamas, then went to Cuba and Hispaniola. Let's not forget that part of what he took back was kidnapped natives, most of whom died during the voyage to Europe. He also recommended using natives as slaves. During his second voyage, he demanded that adult male Tainos bring him gold or cotton. If they didn't, he cut their hands off. Your assertion that blaming him in part for genocide is unfair is completely false. He most certainly does bare blame, seeing as how he was an active participant.

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