Need Help Challanging a Magus, w / o Killing Everyone Else


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CrackedOzy wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
And.... 2 leukodaemons. Fits into your theme perfectly, good CR for the group, their fly breath will hurt him regardless of blur and mirror image, they can cast dispel magic at will, and if they start to take a lot of damage if they get too close, they can greater teleport themselves back and fire at the magus and his party with their bows (after the magus's mirror images are down, hopefully).

Funny you should mention, that's the next room.

magikot wrote:
Instead house-ruling 3/day castings at a regular wand price, give him Eternal Wands from 3.5 Magic Item Compendium. They are 2/day wands and are (if memory serves) fifty percent more expensive than regular wands (only up to third level spells).
By the book, for the same price as they are now, you could have a wand usable 2 1/2 times per day. It was decided that as a balance against being able to burn through extra charges in an emergency, that 3/day was reasonable. You don't have to agree with me, we're happy with our rule. This is part of why I didn't explain this in the OP, I didn't want to derail the discussion.

Wait, your are happy with the rule, but you have a character that you are having a hard time challenging? Which is it? It seems like you wands rules may be part of your power problem.


He/She is happy with the wand rule ( looks like the eternal ward rules from 3.5 so it is arleady kinda out there to use/convert ) , the DM just want to put a few challenging encounters for the magus that wont wipe the party.

Edit - magic in general will by pass his defence.

Dark Archive

Charender wrote:
Wait, your are happy with the rule, but you have a character that you are having a hard time challenging? Which is it? It seems like you wands rules may be part of your power problem.

I don't see a contradiction in what I said.

He could just as easily be using a regular wand and limiting himself to 3 charges per day (which would last him almost 13 days, far longer than clearing this dungeon will take).

I want to be clear as possible, so I'm going to put this in bold and caps.

I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH HIS TACTICS. I CONSIDER IT A CHALLENGE TO UP MY GAME AS A DM. THIS IS WHAT I CAME TO YOU ALL FOR HELP WITH.

Tagion wrote:

He/She is happy with the wand rule ( looks like the eternal ward rules from 3.5 so it is arleady kinda out there to use/convert ) , the DM just want to put a few challenging encounters for the magus that wont wipe the party.

Edit - magic in general will by pass his defence.

Thank you, Tagion, that is exactly the case.

Also, fyi, I am a he. =P


A 9th level wizard casts magic missile at him. Auto hit with 5 missiles and he now has no mirror images. The next round the wizard dispels his blur. 20% miss chance isn't really that great anyway. Mirror image is the money spell.

Its action economy, so if he wants to put more buffs up that's also him not attacking unless he has the arcana to use wands with his spell combat.

Areas of silence also work well vs mages. He can't use the command word to activate the wand or cast any spells to use spell combat and now he's a mediocre 3/4 BAB melee.

Wasting time and resources is also winning for the GM. Come up with puzzles like others have said. Make dungeons a little bigger.


Khrysaor wrote:

A 9th level wizard casts magic missile at him. Auto hit with 5 missiles and he now has no mirror images. The next round the wizard dispels his blur. 20% miss chance isn't really that great anyway. Mirror image is the money spell.

Its action economy, so if he wants to put more buffs up that's also him not attacking unless he has the arcana to use wands with his spell combat.

Areas of silence also work well vs mages. He can't use the command word to activate the wand or cast any spells to use spell combat and now he's a mediocre 3/4 BAB melee.

Wasting time and resources is also winning for the GM. Come up with puzzles like others have said. Make dungeons a little bigger.

Magic missle will not destroy the images. Only an attack requiring an attack roll will destroy the images.

Which reminds me, Toppling Magic Missles are pure evil, and they will blow right past all his defenses.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charender wrote:


Which reminds me, Toppling Magic Missles are pure evil, and they will blow right past all his defenses.

You sir are a bad bad man.... I love that idea.


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Mischief Mondragon wrote:
Charender wrote:


Which reminds me, Toppling Magic Missles are pure evil, and they will blow right past all his defenses.
You sir are a bad bad man.... I love that idea.

Take the trait Magical Lineage for Magic Missle, and you can cast toppling magic missles without a spell level increase.


Our DM has done a couple of night raids on us. The fighters usually have to fight without their armor and the mages haven't had 8 hours of sleep to prepare their spells. The Magus will have to spend the first couple of rounds to cast his defensive spells, giving the enemies time to go after him and get some hits in. It's made for some interesting battles as well. Nothing quite like a dwarf fighter that sleeps in the nude.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
CrackedOzy wrote:
Malignor wrote:
Enemy warrior with Great Cleave and Blindfight... multi-images all go *poof*, Blur is negligible.
Cleave doesn't work on Mirror Image. I looked into that already.

Off Topic but I miss read that last sentence as "Cleaveage doesn't work on Mirror Image." And thought "Wow, that doesn't seem right..."

Thank Aroden it's Friday.


Hmm, kinda time to switch up the tactics. Anti-magic Zone. The old style beholder, then in the future encounters that start with a casting of Mass Dispel. Furthermore CMD mechanics like will be the bane of a Magus, as well as most characters disarm. Consider a monk or rogue with Disarm and step up. The action of pulling out a wand, I would assume he is using a haversack, there are many ways to snatch that. You don't want to seem like you are out to get him. The party could run into a group of well made NPC'S that aren't friendly but aren't evil. Using non killing tactics, sunder steal dirty trick.


While blur and mirror image are rather nice buff spells - and entirely reasonable at level 10 - there are some ways for you to even the odds:

- Attack a lot. You don´t actually have to hit the mirror images AC if you miss by 5 or less you take down one of the images. Not sure if the game checks the blur effect before mirror image though.

Since you use undead and demons in this part of your adventure, if would suggest to throw some skeleton archers into the encounters, add a level 7-8 summoner with a creepy eidolon to the mix. His haste alone should increase the number of attacks, and if you are really nasty give the eidolon a lot of attacks.

- Improved precise shot lets you ignore concealment a level 6 ranger can get it as a bonus feat and could add a diseased wolf to the mix

- Now let's look at the magus, if he survived to level 5, that already pretty impressive without wearing real armor, and his AC at this level might be quite good possible 31 (base 10 + 4 mage armor + 2 ring of protection + 2 amulet of nat. armor + 5 dex +5 int +4 shield spell).

As long as he keeps his dex bonus to AC - if he gets flanked, into the area of a web spell. if while he attempts to walk over an area covered by a humble grease spell - his AC drops by a 9 points.

Dark Archive

I guess I should have mentioned he is using the Shield spell too, figured that was a given.

Also, I've heard mention of CMB tactics a couple times now, but wouldn't those be just as susceptible to Blur & Mirror Image?

I would assume Blur (or any concealment) would be checked before Mirror Image.

Shadow Lodge

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Try an isolation strategy, what I enjoy doing to my dungeon crashing party is throwing them a curve ball by having them enter the upcoming room (usually strongest first) then activating a trap *only detectable from the inside 5ft square not the door. That when the pressure plate is stepped on the door slams shut and magically locks. At this time we roll initiative because a creature is in this room waiting to carve some HP.

After which throw the encounter at the strongest player. Might seem mean but we're not done with him yet.

While the character goes a few rounds solo with a CR appropriate monster (no matter how you slice it Magus have very limited resources when they are the only one damage and defending simultaneously) The rest of the party is either frantically moving through the dungeon trying to find another entrance or hastily trying to break the lock. At level 10 you might want to even try having the lock being too hard to add tension to the game, then gently suggest they look for an alternate route.

The remaining members of the party arrive and save the day.

*Note if the Magus is not the first one to enter the room, find a means to distract/disrupt of forcebly change the pecking order.If they walk with the magus up the back and barbarian up front, have them get attacked from behind for a while. Soon they'll advance in a reverse order (Hopefully with the magus walking through the doors, while the barbarian protects the back.

This is in fact all circumstantial and requires some levels of manipulation to set up. But definately an idea to shock your table.

PS : My tables are never simple :P

Liberty's Edge

Samuel Grundy wrote:
Divide and conquer

Or just throw some enemies with wall spells at the party. Some devils have Wall of Ice at will, and every spellcaster and their dog gets wall of stone. You could also drop a black tentacles. Magi have a hard time keeping strength AND dex high, and the 3/4 BAB will give him a significant chance to be grappled.

Silver Crusade

I came from your other thread.

Let me see if I have this clear. This guy is 10th level and has wands of these defensive spells. When they run out then he recasts. As others have pointed out these spells are minutes per level. If he is using wands then:

Mirror image is gonna give him 1 minute or 10 minutes for casting himself.

Same with Blur and shield.

I think the problem is tracking time. There is no way he should be able to keep these up all day.

Make a point of keeping track of time. Let him know a minute or 10 minutes is up. If he wants to recast then let him burn through them at a rate appropriate to what he is doing.

The usual thing after a fight is to heal and search and loot. Those take time.

Travel time should be accounted. Every 30 feet is a round and every 300 a minute.

Exploring takes time. Roleplaying takes time. We tend to skim over it but it seems like he is not accounting for the time himself so you need to do it.


Speaking as the player of a ~8th level Magus, I really, really hate swarms. And reflex saves. Anything with an aura. Chasing down anything that can hide and snipe is annoying, although I guess that would annoy your other players as well. Also, if you're willing to use a little 3.5, Alienists could summon things with the Pseudonatural template, which gave the creatures a free true strike, which would negate the blur if not the mirror image.

karkon wrote:


I think the problem is tracking time. There is no way he should be able to keep these up all day.

This is correct. The fact that it's a "dungeon" is making this worse -- fights during travels and such happen much more unexpectedly, and even the 90 minute durations are a bad gamble for pre-casting.

Being in a dungeon makes spreading out the encounters more difficult, especially the way they're usually written (one room after another, with something interesting or dangerous in each room). Add more empty rooms, traps, locks, and hazards. Maybe some hazards take a while to manage -- the room of acid needs to drain, or a bridge needs constructing. (Ok, at 10th level they probably fly, but...) In more natural areas of the dungeon, maybe the party needs to traverse long sections of underground river or passage, or climb a narrow chimney. Once your player is down to using the wands, they only last 10 minutes, and you could easily spend that in navigation, at least /sometimes/.


I'm a 15 level magus and you know what I hate the most?

Ancient Blue Dragons staked with defensive spells like: Mage Armor, Shield and Mirror Image.

You know how difficult is to hit them? And how bothering are they to kill?

I coudnt solo him!!! I had to get help from the freaking paladin!

Now lets get serious. Put something invisible no see invisibility sucks for Magi. Also Mirror Image and Blur can get wasted a a quickened magic missile followed by a very simple dispel magic.

And then you can just trow an evil monk to grapple the magus or do what they did to me, throw the monk, disarm me and flee...that was so so sad.

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