Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ

Oterisk's Guide to the Dragon Disciple


251 to 267 of 267 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Working on my Cavalier Guide I just had to do a Dragon Knight and your guide was an excellent reference.

Thanks for that


I think you have too many Eldritch Heritages. If I recall, because people have told me on the rules forums many a time, you can only have one eldritch heritage per character. Not sure why.
Not only that, but the inherent strength bonuses from Orc and Abyssal don't stack. Both from the same source, so I've been told again.

Both of those points are correct Blackhart. You can't take the same feat twice unless it says you can. Eldritch Heritage doesn't say you can. And Inherent bonuses don't stack, so there'd be no point.

So, I love the guide, and before I read it I never considered playing a DD in my whole life.

Now I'm playing one in a PBP. I'm going with a barb1/sor4/DD build, and I basically followed the directions as much as possible.

However, right now I am a lvl1 barb, and I wear scale mail. My dex is 11.

When it comes time for me to level, do i cast aside my scales and just glass cannon for the next 3 levels, *hoping* I don't get clobbered while clobbering?

Thanks for all the things.

@Solspiral- That's a pretty good beast build, but the other guys are right. Inherent bonuses from Orc and Abyssal will not stack. That being said, there's a few extra feats for you to enjoy. Also, you could gain a bit of it back by putting more of your level bonuses in your strength. I think you'll find you are using your strength more than your charisma with this character. Having the options of the mount as well as up close or even dragon transformation (being a medium dragon on horseback would be interesting!) and a few low level spells to mix things up. Looks like fun to play!

@That Other Guy- My advice to you is to keep the scale mail until you get mage armor at level 4. You'll have the ASF to deal with, but if you stick to spells like True Strike and Feather Fall which can be cast in armor without trouble or touch spells like Shocking Grasp that you can cast outside of combat and hold the charge until you get in for some extra damage. Once you get to level 5, you'll get a second level spell. Alter Self is one of my favorites for the +2, but Mirror Image will help you in tough fights avoid a few attacks and be less of a glass cannon.

Thanks again!

After skimming it I don't belive you mentioned the Skinwalker race. For the Brute player I think the Fanglord or Ragebred with the focus on natural attacks would work well. Especially if you had a DM who let the Bloodrager's bloodline grow.

I think you're underselling the Arcanist in your guide. There are two options that could replace Sorcerer as the Inevitable. The Blood Arcanist essentially trades most of its exploits for bloodline abilities. The other option is to take a level of Sorcerer or Bloodrager, and then take the Bloodline Development exploit. This allows the Arcanist levels to stack with the other class for purposes of determining the bloodline abilities.

The Arcanist is a little more flexible than the Sorcerer, particularly when it comes to spells known. You could have lesser used spells in your spellbook that you only pull out when you need them. The Quick Study exploit lets you swap out a spell you have memorized for one in your spellbook to make it even more attractive.

Finally, the Arcanist is an Intelligence-based caster, so the bonus to Intelligence that DD gives you helps out here.

Hi Oterisk and thanks for your useful guide!

What do you think about a Paladin 2 / Eldritch Scion magus 3 / DD x Build?
Don't you think it will be a great melee build?
He get spell combact, spell strike, smite evil, great safe, can cast with light armor and ES bloodline will progress with DD!

He get less spells that's true, but i thin that DD is more a melee fighter than a "real caster" and Magus have some good buff to boost DD stats.

What do you say?

@AZG- I named the inevitables exactly that because they were the original classes you could use that you had to use. Originally it was just Bard and Sorcerer, but then Summoner got thrown in the mix. Now we have Skald and Bloodrager too, so I had to put them in there. The Arcanist has to prepare it's spells, so it doesn't qualify (except for the SLA work around).

Okay, the Arcanist is a bit more flexible than the Sorcerer. Although after playing a straight Sorcerer up through an AP I do pretty good with scrolls, staves and a Mnemonic Vestment at filling all the arcane needs of the group. It does help that we have a druid as well to also take a bit of the burden off of utility caster. YMMV. If you're playing a DD, you'd actually better not be the utility caster, because it's a bad idea. Stick to buffs and blasts and you'll be better off.

It's a pretty interesting new class although to me its a bit overhyped in my opinion. That being said, it's not better than a sorcerer in my opinion due to the amount of spells they get. Now I know there's tricks around that. But I'm not going to want to spend my resources to get more spells per day when I could have just had them from the start and spend my resources on things like doing more damage or having some good defense for when I wade into melee.

I gave it orange, just like the wizard. And the Wizard is a powerful and interesting option too. The wizard gets spell access earlier and when you drop a casting level or two in pursuit of the DD levels, that can be a real boon. So I think it's about right. If you want to show me a build that's got a lot of benefits over a sorcerer or wizard build, I might reconsider, but for now I'm sticking with my original assessment.

@Forcy- After playing an Eldritch Scion a little, I found them to be quite fun. Now many people make a stink about how they can only do spell combat when they use their arcane pool. That is a legitimate concern, and something you'll have to provide for. The ES would be a good place to go "IF" your GM allows the bloodline to stack. It's currently always a house rule to allow it unless something has changed lately, so tread lightly. Spell Combat does work with natural weapons associated with a hand (such as claw) so you're good there.

If you can't get the bloodline to stack, you might think of going with a Spirit Summoner. They too can cast in armor and have a much better buff list and early access to things like Haste. The Spirit Summoner also gets 3 levels of an Eidolon which you can turn into a wand monkey, so you actually don't lose much on action economy there and you don't have a -2 to your attacks.

In any case, the most important thing is to clear it with your GM and go from there. Also, builds are easier to judge when you add race and feats and skills. I'd recommend putting together the Build you proposed and do another with something similar and see which one you like better.

@Kyle- I'll have to update that.

Hey there. Hate to rain on the parade, but I was looking through the guide and noticed that you were still talking about using the SLA ruling to get into the class. That ruling has recently been reversed. I'd go into the exact details, but I don't have them. I dunno. Thought you ought to know, in case you didn't.

Here you go. New version of the ruling on SLAs:

So I am doing a Half Orc, Witch-Doctor prestige into DD; the GM is allowing my witch to qualify the "spontaneous level 1 spells" since I recently "ate" a dragon's soul, which seems a fair enough excuse for any game. Could you potentially add that option into your guide as from my personal analysis of the build, a "buffing, blasting, melee brute that uses com to cast" seems like a blue since everything else makes up for the -5 to the DC of hexes. I also want to know if you see anything that I potentially missed.

You have forgotten the power of Eldritch Heritage (Ghoul), the most powerful claw attack in the game. I mean, you mention it, but there is not enough emphasis how powerful it can be combined with Ability Focus and Noxious Bite (plus Breath Weapon Ability focus) for a Green or Brass DD.

Combined with Noxious Bite (being Green or Brass) and 2 Ability Focus Feats (Ghoulish Claws & Breath Weapon), the Beast Caster can destroy anything not immune to Nausea and Paralysis with insanely high Save DCs (add a Cloak of Arcane Heritage to increase the DCs even more...). Depending on how your group plays the DD, (RAW it says "use your bloodline power to grow claws), it also extends your Bite ability.

With the aforementioned setup, you can force 3 high-DC Fortitude saves in a single full attack action. In that playstyle, I recommend you start with max CHA (20 as Aasimar) and very high Str (18 as Aasimar), get Crossblooded (Orc/Draconic) so you get great STR bonuses plus +2 damage per acid spell damage die. Get a spell-storing amulet of mighty fists and store an Elemental (Acid), Intensified Shocking grasp. Congrats. Before battle, cast the same spell again and hold the charge.

10D6+20 Acid damage x2 plus bite damage plus claw damage plus 3 Fort Saves for Nausea/Paralysis. Having dipped 1 level of Lore oracle (CHA instead of Dex in AC & Reflex) and having taken the Branded curse, making the amulet also conductive adds even more (fire) damage.

Lanitril- Sorry, I haven't updated the guide with the new ruling, although I was aware. For a while I was waiting to see if the Bloodrager Bloodline would be ruled to work with Dragon Disciple (it does) before I did an update, but then we ran into Psychic Magic, and I got very busy personally. I might do another update, but probably not until early next year.

AwesomenessDog- Sounds like a cool build, but it I won't be adding it to the guide because not very many characters get to eat dragon's souls and all. Enjoy your special ruling.

Lithras- Changing the damage type of a spell doesn't change its type, sadly. Shocking grasp will always have the Electric descriptor, no matter what type of damage it does. Corrosive Touch is what you'll want, although it's inferior to Shocking Grasp in pretty much every way.

Secondly, you need to be a Green, Black or Copper Dragon for Noxious Bite.

But the combo is worth mentioning. Most people don't get that high of ability scores when they make their character, but if you can do it, it's a really good build. I will find a good spot to highlight it, thanks for the notice.

I was thinking about Lithras' build. I can't think of any necromatic spell that does acid damage. Its too bad too as a cross blooded (black draconic / ghoul) with sorcerous bloodstrike could activate both bloodline arcanas and regain a use of his claws. Even without sorcerous bloodstrike (as it is kinda a crappy feat) it is a pretty strong combo. But I don't think there is a spell that fits the bill.

Lune wrote:
I was thinking about Lithras' build. I can't think of any necromatic spell that does acid damage. Its too bad too as a cross blooded (black draconic / ghoul) with sorcerous bloodstrike could activate both bloodline arcanas and regain a use of his claws. Even without sorcerous bloodstrike (as it is kinda a crappy feat) it is a pretty strong combo. But I don't think there is a spell that fits the bill.

Corrosive Touch is fine in the sense that adding +2 damage per die is perfectly fine as well. The Alpha strike is still tremendous. My previous DD rolled fine with that one, I was considering switching for shocking grasp on this new, more optimized version of him but thanks for pointing it out.

Yes, I forgot Black dragons and I mistook Copper for Brass (it was morning at work), thanks for pointing out my mistakes, Oterisk :)

In a 25-pt buy, an Angelkin can be STR18 DEX8 CON12 INT10 WIS8 CHA20. Take 1st level as Oracle (Lore Mystery, Branded Curse) and you start with great AC & Reflex.


With 16 rounds of claws/day you don't have to take Sorcerous Bloodstrike. And compared to high DCs for the Paralysis and Nausea, there is no room for Improved natural Attack either.

Here is my build. It sort of falls into the "Beast Caster" category in the guide. Good STR but focuses his level up points to CHA, since they empower his trick, which is Paralysis & Nausea. This build also focuses a lot on an "Alpha Strike", striking hard on the 1st round of combat to deal as much damage as possible while also incapacitating the enemy. Most encounters with a similar build would end on round 1, as me and the party's synthesists would rip Bosses to shreds before the rest of the party even got to act. The tradeoff is favoring DC enhancing feats instead of flat melee damage boosting ones. A D4+12 (14,5 avg) claw with a Paralysis effect rocks my day more than a D6+15 (18,5 avg), the difference in damage is not that big, and the "as high DC as possible" mindset makes it more sensible to increase the chances of a Nausea/Paralysis than single-digit more damage per attack. You will coup de grace them later anyway ;)

Moreover, this build is a viable swtch-hitter, like Oterisk says, you can also afford to sit back and blast with Acid spells if you wish to stay back in a fight.

Bloodlines: Orc/Draconic (Green)

Traits: Magical Knack (Sorcerer), Reactionary

1: Skill Focus (Stealth): for Eldritch Heritage

3: Warrior Priest: Low DEX, we got AC and Refle covered with the Oracle level, but even with Reactionary we are only at +1 Initiative and Improved Initiative as a Bloodline feat will be available at level 7, so this will help a bit for now.

5: Eldritch Heritage (Ghoul): Double claw rounds (16 total for 20 CHA, that's more than enough for a day's fights)

7: Ability Focus (Ghoulish Claws): Contributes to become a game-breaking machine.

9: Noxious Bite: See above.

11: Ability Focus (Breath Weapon): See above.

13: Improved Arcane Heritage: Free Haste and Bleed for your weaker damaging claws (why care about damage when you can coup de grace most opponents anyway)

15: Elemental Spell: I couldn't put this one earlier as we need to cheese out our Bite & Claws (do so if you are Human or Half-Elf), helps with acid-resistant or immune opponents.

17: Piercing Spell: Never underestimate the power of your Alpha Strike, hitting as hard as possible even if the enemy has high SR. Before the fight, cast a Piercing & Intensified (Rod it) Corrosive Touch and hold the charge. Moreover, put a Piercing & Intensified Corrosive Touch in your Amulet of Mighty Fists. Your first round of attacking will HURT with a bucketload of damage and Fortitude Saves to take the BBEG out of the fight entirely. Also good if you choose for some reason to sit back and blast (with this build, you have enouch CHA to viably do so).

19: Spell Penetration: Being 4 caster levels behind (2 with Magical Knack), now you are back on track.

Bloodline Feats: Improved Initiative, Intimidating Prowess, Quicken Spell, Power Attack

I guess you could switch a feat for Sorcerous Bloodstrike, perhaps Warrior Priest if you don't plan to Oracle or can wait with a sluggish Initiative until level 7.

Must-Have Gear:
-Metamagic Rod (Intensify Spell) to store your alpha touch to your AMF and to do your first casting with.

-Spell-Storing, Conductive Amulet of Mighty Fists (I also recommend to add Ghost Touch and anything else you like. Leave the enhancment bonuses for Permanent Greater Magic Fangs, as oterisk states in the guide).

-Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (in the form of a circlet, triangular hats don't look cool).

-Silken Ceremonial Armor (or Armored Kilt) +1 (add other enchantments later, don't waste on a further enhancement bonus).

-Belt of Giant Strength

-Headband of Alluring Charisma

-Robe of Arcane Heritage

-Ring of Protection

With this build (Oracle 1-Sorcerer 9-Dragon Disciple 10), counting only a Robe of Arcane Heritage, a +6 STR Belt and a +6 CHA Headband, at level 20 you will be at STR34, CON14, INT12, CHA30. Your Breath Weapon & Noxious Bite DC will be 33 and your Paralyze DC will be 32. A level 20 Fighter with CON16 and a +6 CON+STR Belt has +18 Fortitude (needs to roll 15+ to avoid Nausea and 14+ to avoid Paralysis). A level 20 Paladin with 14CON and 20CHA with a +6 CHA headband has +20 Fortitude and still needs to roll more than 10-11 (average D20 roll) to beat your DC, it's absolutely killer. Your AC will also go through the roof (AC27 only from CHA and Natural armor, goes up to 35 with Mage Armor & Shield, and then add any other bonuses you might have from a Ring of Protection, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier etc.)

Triangular hats CAN look cool. Ever seen Ninja Scroll? Jubei rocks that jingasa hard, yo. :p

251 to 267 of 267 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Oterisk's Guide to the Dragon Disciple All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2015 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.