Frolo the Second wrote:
If only I looked at this earlier. I just discovered this for myself with the help of Lune, dealing with his Claw Blades. Nice work Daniel.
A thought..... A level 11 wizard/ 1 Sorcerer (crossblooded)/8 DD would get bloodline powers up to 9, could advance wizrd spells to level 17 and thus get 9th level spells and avoid the spell loss drawback of the crossblooded type.... A transmuter could get +3 strength! feats with selection of eschew materials would be the same and a familiar would be available.
Not a bad thought, the wizard class is mentioned in the guide as not a terrible option. The transmuter bonus isn't that great, because as it is an Enchantment Bonus, it doesn't stack with a Belt of Strength +6. It would be fine to put into constitution or Dexterity if you had an odd number there, that's for sure.
I was thinking of winter witch as my main spellcasting class, with one sorceror level, crossblood DD with Primal/White dragon, and shooting some nasty nasty rays (scorching ray and burning hands learned as ice spells with the primal bonus spells so you can get around the "no fire spells" limitation of the winter witch). If I understand all the wording correctly (which I could possibly not), the bonus spells from the sorcerer bloodline would get added to whatever arcane spell list you have of appropriate level. And if that doesn't work you could use eldricht heritage for Arcane and then eventually add more wizard spells to your list. I know wiz/sorc have better spell lists but the role I'm currently playing in my game is arcane healer so It's more for flavor then optimization.
From what I understand, you would get the bonus spells. Some GM's may interpret it differently, so be sure to talk to your GM before you make the commitment. Of course, since you posted this a few weeks ago and I missed it, you probably have passed that point by now.
For everyone else, I did an update.
yet to come- ARG
I've been looking at this and was going to possibly use this as a guide to building my DD. But I have a few reserves about this. This whole cross-blooded thing. I do not understand. You say it advances BOTH of the bloodlines you pick? Say Abyssal/ Draconic just for the sake of example? I don't see anhywhere for a DD that a Cross-blooded gets to advance both her abyssal and draconic bloodline. That's like 2 characters in one.
Maybe I'm missing something or this has already been answered. But doesn't the cross-blooded specifically dictate that you have to pick a bloodline power as you advance and forfeit the other one?
Just the way I read your guide, it sounds to me like a sorcerer with two bloodlines gets the benefits of both and ontop of that does Eldrich heritage to get even more. The heritage is fine by me, but I don't see the cross-blooded gaining such a PWN like getting both bloodlines at the same time.
A crossblooded Sorcerer gets to choose what bloodline powers they would get at level 1, 3, 9, etc.
If I was crossblooded Abyssal, and picked Strength of the Abyss for my 9th level ability, it would progress with Dragon Disciple because DD advances your level based on your Bloodline, not your Draconic Bloodline. You don't get any more powers out of the deal, but it would advance the bloodline powers you have, regardless of if you chose them from the draconic bloodline or some other source. Does that make more sense?
The Crossblooded sorcerer does get -1 spell known per level and a -2 to will saves, so it's not like it is really overpowered to take the option. It just gives you more options as you level and keeps the fun coming.
That's what I was meaning when I wrote that. I'm sorry if you misunderstood that you could get extra bloodline powers you wouldn't normally get from just being a straight classed Crossblooded Sorcerer. I might consider rewriting what I wrote about it to make this more clear.
Ohhhhh. See, I get it now. Okay, that's what I thought it was in the first place. That makes it a lot easier. I was just sitting here baffled and thought "My God, that would be so overpowered." But now that you've cleared it up, I feel much easier about it. I was even questioning a friend of mine who thought that's what you meant and was also baffled by it.
But nevermind now. I personally... I mean, all the draconic sorcerer's bloodlines seem to be perfectly fine and fit snuggly with DD, although that's pretty much what it was built for. I would consider just going straight Draconic and Eldrich Heritage for Abyssal to get those sweet powers in the mix really. I mean, I guess that seems kind of typical, but it fits well. You already get stackable attribute bonuses anyway. But none the less I really like your guide aside from the small confusion I had. Thanks for clearing it up so fast for me.
Love how the guide is coming along. Great job, mate. A few suggestions to add to the idea-pool:
1. With the pal/oracle/sorc build posted earlier, I recommend nature's whispers instead of sidestep secret, since the paladin dip should cover saves nicely, and nature's whispers adds CHA to CMD instead of reflex. As a front-liner, CMD may serve you better.
2. Interesting spells to consider include Monstrous Extremities from faiths of corruption (it is NOT an evil spell despite the source, and it turns your legs into hooves for hr/lvl, giving you extra attacks in your full-attack routine - but swap it out when you start relying on other polymorph spells regularly) and stone shield from the ARG (immediate action to add a +4 cover bonus to AC for 1 round, and it's a 1st level spell).
I've been into 3.x gish builds for quite some time and I did read your guide (very well made btw!) and the gish guide. But I'm new to pathfinder (first post on theese boards).
Looking at the remaining levels to fill if going RDD and always having an affinity for the EK I thought maybe Fighter 1/Sorc 4/RDD 8/EK7 is a good way to go. EK could fill the gish theme of the RDD nicely. Level 9 and 10 of RDD do not seem to add much of significance to me for 2 reasons:
Fighter 1/Sorc 4/RDD 8/EK7 would end up with 16 BAB and casterlevel 16 quite nicely imho. If you go cross booded elven sage with 20 point buy could look like this (after racial modifiers):
str 18 dex 14 con 10 int 16 wis 8 cha 7
I like elves for casters since they have such incredibly good bonuses (enough to go with 18 str instead of 20?).
Do you think this approach is mechanically strong (not pulling cha+smite evil or monk wis+empyrial bloodline tricks)? Would you rather go for a martial/exotic weapon or natural ones?
Thanks in advance, I hope I could tribute an interesting thought.
I have been starting to read through the guide and it looks very interesting. But I have a question about actually using the builds.
For the melee combat machine versions of the DD. Are you relying on casting several defensive buffs at the start of each fight? Our fights are usually only 3-4 rounds total. If I have to spend half of each one buffing, I don't see how that would be very effective.
A few of the builds seem to be going the armored mage route. But a bunch of them seem to be relying on spells like mage armor, shield, blur, mirror image, cat’s grace, bear’s endurance, pro evil, etc… The only one of those that lasts very long is mage armor.
I suppose if you know fight is going to be really soon but for some reason the opposition can’t hear you casting spells, then you could cast the ones with the min/level duration. But I don’t see that happen very often.
Am I missing something?
A lot of strategy does have to do with playing style. If your group is constantly surprised, because that is the way your GM or your playing group prefers it, you might have to adjust your strategy to fit.
Usually, when I am in a situation with a fighting DD, I like to cast a buff and move into a position where the enemy needs to still move 10' before attacking to keep them from full attacking, and then I would still get the first full attack of the combat as well as a good defensive buff to get me going. If it looks to be an easy fight, I would just wade into melee and get it over faster, so you don't really need to pull out all the stops for every fight.
Mage armor lasts 1 hour per level, so it isn't too far into your career that you can keep it up all day if you need to. Some of the other buffs that are useful are the ones that are 10 min per level. (Heroism being one of my favorites here) I try to do one of those when I feel like there might be a fight soon. If you do things like this, you can have 3 buffs up in most fights, and at least one in surprise fights. A well placed defensive spell is worth its weight in gold sometimes.
Quick possible feat benefit. Expanded Arcana could possibly help for Cross-blooded sorcerer to make up for the lack of spells you would know at each given level. If you have the feats to spare. Seems like aBLUE feat or perhaps GREEN at least.
Expanded Arcana is a feat for a spell. That actually isn't a good trade, although I can think of quite a few feats that would be worse. At early levels having a lack of spells is a pain, but at higher levels your lower level spells are hardly as much use to you as they were a few levels ago. I would rate this as Orange unless you were doing like an E7 campaign or were on the slow progression where you wouldn't be able to get into the real swing of things, at least very quickly.
Thanks for the post though.
The reason why I recommend staying away from the EK route is that I believe that there are good reasons for sticking with the bloodline.
1. Bonus spells. There's no point in getting to 16th level casting if you don't get your bonus spell for 8th level because you won't have any spells known at that level. Crossblooded takes one spell known away from you, bloodline lets you keep going.
2. Breath weapon. A Fighter 2 Sorc 8 DD 10 might not have more than a 13 BAB, but he will have (assuming robes of Arcane Heritage) the ability to use a 22d6 breath weapon twice a day. Sure, it is only 6d6 more than your build, but sometimes that can make the difference.
3. Capstones. The FoTD the DD gets at level 10 goes from FotD 1-2 and from once a day to twice. This means that you can go through just about as many fights a day as your party can handle, and you are in dragon form for all of them. Otherwise, you might have to do more picking and choosing. It also frees up a few 7th level spell slots that you could, I don't know, use prismatic spray or maximized Dragon's breath spells or something.
But that's not the only capstone you would have access to. The robes of Arcane Heritage can get you your Draconic (or other bloodline) bloodline capstone as well. Being immune to sleep, paralysis, one energy type, and blindsense 60' is kind of nice. The Arcane bloodline (which you chose) is even better where metamagic feats don't add to your casting time.
Overall, your build isn't bad, and it would give you some nice bonuses to your fighting capability. But if you are picking a spellcasting race, you would be better off moving toward a spellcasting build. The damage output of your build is going to be a bit less than one I would advocate, but you will hit more often.
The whole natural weapon vs exotic weapon for this build has been contested a fair bit. It is enough for me to say that I prefer natural weapon's consistent damage output, but if you like criticals, than a weapon might be a little better. UNLESS, you take the first two Dragon Style feats or plan on spending a lot of time in Form of the Dragon because Dragons don't use weapons.
That being said, the new ARG has some interesting things going on for Dragon Disciples. I am still processing all of those things though, and my guide will get updated when I am ready.
1. Good point. Although in my mind Lore is more Draconic than Nature thematically, I cannot deny it is better optimization.
2. I haven't gotten the chance to look at that spell because I am poor, but it sounds nice. I don't like the flavor, and I would agree on swapping it out as soon as possible if you are forced to rely on it.
Stone Shield sounds good, but again, I haven't gone through the ARG yet, still working on that. I'm sure there will be plenty of updates for my guide when I am done, including a big expansion of the race section of course.
Overall an amazing guide, and more than a lot of help when it comes to utilizing the DD. One thing I did want to mention (and why I created an account) is that some of the information on Feral Combat doesn't seem correct, or as far as I've looked into by RAW/poking around.
"Feral Combat Training. This combo can give you double Strength bonuses on your first claw attack and an additional ½ your Strength bonus on your other claw. Your Dragon bite? Get Weapon Focus for it and you can double your Str bonus for that. Your tail slap when you do FotD2? Get Weapon Focus and you can double the Strength bonus."
This seems to suggest that, if you already have Feral Combat Training, you need only take Weapon Focus (x Natural Attack) and you will automatically gain the strength bonus from Dragon Style for that Natural Attack; however, you do need to select a specific natural attack when you take Feral Combat Training, and it only applies to that selected attack.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.Source
I also noticed that under the Alchemist section, you listed them as gaining access to pounce at level 6 under the Beast Morph archetype, though they only gain access to it at 10th level (Though the 6th level stuff is still useful, though not nearly as worth it).
I also had a question, regarding taking alchemist levels. You recommend that four levels are taken, in order to gain access to the Alchemical Allocation forumlae. Feral Mutagen is the obvious choice for the second level discovery, but what about the fourth? Is Preserve Organs the best option, or would it be worthwhile to take a tentacle instead, for another Natural Attack? This is for a planned character that is 2 Unarmed Fighter, 1 Sorcerer [Sage/Draconic Crossblooded], Alchemist 4 (Something that would be interesting to mention is that Sage/Draconic Crossblooded has great synergy if you plan on splashing some kind of int based class, though needing to take Eldritch Heritage for Abyssal still hurts).
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Feels good to be back to this thread! I've started to look into a bard (AD)-DD combo for my next PC in earnest and have a question concerning the bonded item/Arcane Bond feature.
Arcane Bond (Ex) wrote:
[...] an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item, [...] He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components. [...]
1) How does this requirement interfere with my melee attacks using my claws?
My mental image was somehow an AD-DD slashing and gnawing away at his foes, casting in between, and reverting to claw/claw/bite routine.
Is this realistic (especially when considering the limited rounds/day I can use my natural weapons) - and yes, I know casting in melee situations is kinda suboptimal anyways...
What I am looking for is advice from experience or theoretical crunchy stuff!
2)Oh, and while we're at it: what action does it take to revert from claws to normal hands - also a free action?
2) I would assume that it's also a free action, since that's what it is to grow them. It says the rounds do not need to be consecutive, so that would suggest that it's a free action to end, sort of like a Bardic Performance.
1) If you want it in that specific order, (of fighting with a weapon then reverting to natural attacks) it's always a free action to drop the weapon, so that's pretty easy. The trickier part is getting your weapon back once you've dropped it; depending on interpretation by your GM, a weapon cord could work for this, letting you recover your weapon to your hand as a swift action. The pfsrd said that "... you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it.", so it depends on your GMs definition of weapon (that is, do your claws count as another "weapon" or not). While it would be inconvenient to have the weapon just dangling there, the description says you can still use that hand, though finer things may be more difficult (though no hard penalties are listed).
If, on the other hand, you wanted to begin with your claws, then switch to a weapon once your claws ran out, the only thing I can really think of is Quick Draw, unless you want to run into battle with it dangling on that weapon cord already, having drawn it and dropped it as a part of, and during your move action... But that would look ridiculous.
And, if you want to be really silly, you could wear a spiked gauntlet and choose that as your arcane bonded item. Gloves don't interfere with natural attacks, I don't think (by logic they should, but I've found nowhere that says they do, and if they did, then that's a significant gimp to all natural attackers around the world), so I don't see why a Spiked Gauntlet would either. You could always describe the gauntlet as being fingerless, or something, sorta like brass knuckles.
Thanks for the replies!
I (of course) would also opt for the free action - but I hoped for a citation (no big deal, my GM would be ok with that explanation).
Changing between meleeing with my natural weapons and casting would be more due to an emergency (thus being even more important to think through!) - say to cast vanish or one of the finale spells; if everything goes well, I will not need to cast while in melee, the weapon cord might be the thing to look at.
I thought about the armor spikes, actually, but would prefer dagger since it's a more accepted accessory in social situations (think posh, gilded, bejewelled dagger needed for showing off or eating) - nobody would think of demanding you to go without it, but armor spikes on the other hand...
WtW- Regarding the Unarmed Fighter section, it may seem to imply that. I will have to change the wording to be more like the Monk Section that explains it more fully. With the size of my document, I shouldn't take it for granted that people will read the entirety of it.
The best recourse for someone who is building that type of character is actually to be human and take the feat from the ARG called Martial Versatility. This allows weapon focus to be taken for every weapon within the same group, which would include all your natural weapons and Improved Unarmed strike, should you choose to use it. It does take 4 levels of fighter to get, but when I originally wrote that section I hadn't added the ARG feats yet. I still haven't, but I suppose I should to make the guide more complete.
Alchemist is pretty cool for a 4 level dip. Any of the discoveries you mentioned would be fine, also remember that you can get more with the feat Extra Discovery. So if you wanted two tentacles you could do that or bump your immunity to crits to 75%. Getting Smoke Bomb isn't a terrible idea either, because you get blind sense later, and it could be useful. If Vestigial Arms were not terrible, I could recommend Parasitic Twin thematically, you could say that the dragon part of you is taking over the human part of you. It isn't terribly optimized, but not everyone is into that.
As to regards of the Beastmorph, 10 is a bit steep. Sorry for getting it wrong, I should have done a bit more fact checking, but that is part of what the response thread is all about. Although if you did Alchemist 11, Sorc 1, and DD 8, that would be a decent build if you got pounce out of the deal. And I will add some mention of the Sage bloodline as well. I suppose it is past time for an update anyway.
Ruyan, If you are going with a arcane duelist you should remember that you won't be doing much for natural weapons until your first level of Dragon Disciple. That is unless you make a habit of using Alter Self to turn into a Troglodyte (dragon man). Of course at that point, you have cast a polymorph spell and all your equipment will have melded into your body. A reasonable DM would allow you to cast with your weapon melded into your body, don't you think? Later on, when you get FoTD, you should have the same issue.
I put in a question to James Jacobs about that, and we will see what he has to say.
WtW- I am still looking into your issue, I thought I had every angle covered, but when you look at multiple feat chains to do something new, sometimes things get lost in the shuffle. When I come to a conclusion on this, I will let you know. Also, I have done some updates already to the guide. I hope I don't have to do some deleting too, that would make me sad.
Wow, thanks for the quick reply!
And oh man, is that Martial Versatility feat sweet. Thanks for pointing that out to me, because I would never have seen it otherwise. So, that would mean you'd have to take Martial Versatility for both Weapon Focus and Feral Combat training, but at least as a human you get that bonus feat... Steep, but that extra strength bonus on every natural attack is still worth it.
That said, oh how I wish I could be a human. Unfortunately, I've already commit to a custom conversion of Warforged from 3.5. Seeing as, unfortunately, it would require me to take a lot of feats if I want that dragon style bonus to all of my natural attacks, I am not so sure that this would be the best path for me to progress. The conversion has racial stat bonuses of +2 Con, +2 Int, and -4 Charisma, hence the Sage bloodline that I mentioned earlier. The conversion is pretty standard, with all those delicious immunities, but also gives me two 1d4 primary slam attacks through an alternate racial trait, hence why I wanted to go down the natural attack path.
The initial plan was to take Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1/Alchemist 4 as the Chasis, though the campaign is starting at the 3rd level.
With the stats of 17 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 7 Wis, 3 Cha (12 point Buy :[ ), at the third level I'd be attacking four times in a full attack, assuming I decide to grow my claws, with a buffed 19 Str from Enlarge Person. With the Dragon Style Feats, and Weapon Focus/Feral Combat Training (slam), that would put me at two Claw attacks at 1d4+4, and two slam attacks at 1d4+6. For the following four levels, I'd probably take either two tentacles, or a tentacle and feral mutagen in order to really pile on the natural attacks, ending up with a total of 6 by level seven (Slam x2, Claw x2, Bite/Tentacle, or Tentacle x2). The rulings on Tentacle are still kind of iffy, as I've seen various opinions on whether or not they can be used in a natural attack routine, so it could only be 5 natural attacks.
Now, the fact that I can't apply Dragon Style to two thirds of my damage output makes it look significantly less juicy (though it's still nice, especially since I don't have to worry about my slams disappearing). Is that feat line worth it for me, anymore? Would it be better, instead, to take two levels of natural attack ranger to gain permanent claws, and just scrap my Dragon Style Feats? Here's my levels 1-3 Feat line-up:
1st: Weapon Focus: Slam
It seemed better at the time to rush the dragon style/FCT feats, rather than take power attack for a damage bonus, but perhaps it would be better to just sacrifice the +1 to hit, to get the bonus to damage on all of my attacks? This seems especially true if I decide on taking ranger levels, since power attack would apply to all of my natural attacks all of the time. And if you think that going heavier on caster with this is a better idea, then by all means, please say so! Really all I wanted out of this was to be a robot dragon :]
Sorry to make a double post, but Ruyan mentioning Bard really got me thinking about it. Of particular note, is the special mention that Dawnflower Dervish got within your guide; maybe the disadvantage of being stuck with a lance/polearm could be more of a benefit? It could work for a normal bard, too.
Here's how I've planned it: Cavalier 5/Bard 7/Dragon Disciple 8, though in an undecided order thus far. It's really a shame that you can't take the full ten levels of DD, for FotD 2, and the Wings, but you get all the important stuff. 13th level Bard casting is decent, with access to 5th level spells at least, but with this you'd be more of a buffer/skirmisher, more than anything.
In terms of Archetypes, this could be done two ways, as far as I can see. If you're going to focus on a lance, you obvious want to be charging, using Spirited Charge, along with Power Attack and Furious Focus. Gendarme from Cavalire is the obvious choice for this; it lets you skip pre-reqs for some amazing mounted feats. You take 5 levels of this in order to gain two of these bonus feats (Ride-By-Attack and Spirited Charge seem like the best choices here), but you also gain access to the ability Banner. Great! We're already using a Banner because we want the feat Flagbearer and Banner of the Ancient Kings for our Bardic Performance, and bonuses! The bonus from Banner isn't amazing, but it's nice. Obviously, you also want the Horse Master feat, etc., as per what Oterisk has written. Order of the Cockatrice would be good, for the extra damage and dazzling display... Intimidating Prowess might be something to consider.
Here's where the choice is: for Bard, I would recommend either Vanilla Bard or Dawnflower Dervish. Taking Dawnflower Dervish ramps up your damage because it doubles your Inspire Courage Bonuses, and also becomes a swift action at 7th level. Unfortunately, these only apply to yourself, so maybe slightly less awesome, if you're group is melee focused. Also not as cool since you can't use Lingering Performance with it. Vanilla is obviously more team friendly, and still benefits greatly from having the banner of the ancient kings, since the great shame of not going full Bard is losing out on Bardic Performance progression. Either way, both are good, and should really come down to your party's comp. (Note: If you can convince your DM to let you, use this spell and feat from 3.5, and watch as your party hails you for your mondo charge damage or group buffing skills. Do note that Inspiration Boost is a swift action, so it doesn't work quite as well with the Dawnflower Dervish's swift action battle dance.)
Dragon Disciple is all standard stuff. If you can, try and fit in Eldritch Heritage for Orc Bloodline, as per Mercurial's build, with of course taking the Opportunistic Gambler trait. Also following that build's train of thought, Improved Eldritch Heritage/Greater Eldritch Heritage are also great, though charging might prove a little more difficult while in the form of a Giant... Arcane Strike adds more DPR, so hopefully the bonus feats from Cavalier and DD are enough to get you through.
Race, Gnome is probably your best choice because of small size (having a medium mount makes maneuvering and charging so much easier). -2 to Str hurts, but with all the stat bonuses from Orc bloodline and DD, I don't think it'll really be a problem. Besides, a lot of the damage will be coming from Inspire Courage/Touch of Rage/Power Attack/Arcane Strike, so a -1 to hit and to damage is a small price. You'll probably want to take Eternal Hope alternate racial trait, for another bonus to saves against fear, and another d20 roll which is always amazing. I think either of the favored class bonuses for gnome cavaliers and bards are good, either better movement on your mount, or more bardic performance rounds (personally, I'd take the rounds). Halfling isn't nearly as good because you don't really need dex and still take a strength penalty, though an Order of the Paw Cavalier Halfling can be amusing, and does grant an additional buff to your party.
In your guide, Oterisk, you also mention that you can turn your mount (emu... pony... riding dog) into a dragon, which is medium, so you could still ride around on it decently in tight areas, and charge if you want... Or, you could dismount, and summon a phantom steed.
Edit: (Gendarme early access isn't an excuse to skip out on Mounted Combat. Trick Riding is also good, as is Mounted Skirmisher. With BAB of 16 at 20th level, you'd still be getting a decent four attacks on a full attack action, so Mounted Skirmisher can be really worth it if you aren't able to get charges. Trick Riding is extra good because you're in light armor and still casting perfectly fine, though a Mithral Breastplate is considered light armor, so could still apply, if you really want the AC and don't mind 15% SF. Getting all the feats listed will be a problem, not even counting feats you may want, so pick and choose to figure out what's best for you. Things like Arcane Strike aren't nearly as necessary as getting at least the first Eldritch Heritage for Touch of Rage. Likewise, Lingering Performance is not as important as other things you could get.)
Well, both of your builds have their good points and bad points. The fact that you are warforged and a sorcerer is kinda strange, but the idea of a giant dragon robot is kind of cool. Are you playing a robot or are you switching to Gnome? Your posts are a little confusing.
Dragon Style feats are worth it for Beast Builds, but if you are looking for more of a caster build, or even a Beast Caster, you might not be able to afford the feat investment.
In my opinion, if you pick a class other than the inevitables to go with, you should stick to just one. Two reasons for this is that at later levels you are going to find your spells just don't keep up and that you have late entry to the real meat of the DD Prestige Class. I would recommend 4 levels of Alchemist, Cavalier or Fighter and one of Sorcerer before jumping into DD at level 6 for earlier access to your Dragon Form, breath weapon and Stat bonuses.
If you go with the Bard route, 7 levels of Bard to start is a good way to go because of the perform as a move action and with the banner of the ancient kings can gives you a +3 to inspire courage. If you really want to go with bard and cavalier, you better bet is to take a look at my Pathfinder Chronicler guide which I encourage the Battle Herald.
In any case, try putting down your actual feats up to twenty and look at your top two or three spells from each list and comparing them there. There is only so much you can do with just levels of things for comparison. You may find that your perspectives will change as you try out the builds.
Alright, thanks for the advice Oterisk. I'm still planning on going with a robot dragon, I just thought a gnome lancer DD could be something interesting to think about.
But yeah, the biggest problem I'm having is fitting in all the feats, so I'll probably have to plan to twenty as you've said.
I'll go ahead and take a look at your pathfinder chronicler guide, as well.
So quick question, in order to get dragon ferocity from dragon style arent you required to also take stunning fist, or is there a way around getting stunning fist?
I think I'd drop RDD at level 8 no matter what build. If you compare them two levels RDD to two levels of Sorcerer you loose a casterlevel for wings and darkvision (FotD II is debatable, depending on when you can cast it). The RDD levels give you better HP but no save progression.
1/Sorc 4/RDD 8/EK 7 does not progress Bloodline levels after level 13 (treated as lvl 16 Sorc with RoAH) but you do get advantages as a gish: Better HP (not much, 6 on average), better BAB (3 more, 4th attack at lvl 20) and access to fighter feats (mostly weapon focus line, maybe disruptive). Fighter 2/RDD 10/Sorc 8 will have to wait until level 18 (already lost 2 BAB by then) for capstones and trades a caster level.
It really depends on preference, the EK grands slightly more martial prowess while not going EK gives slightly more bloodline prowess. I think it's a viably option.
One thing not entirely clear to me, does the RoAH grant bloodline spells?
Ad: Inherent bonuses not stacking
This is D&D legacy stuff, made explicit in the Wish spell text:
Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
...note the first part is in direct conflict with the Abyssal bloodline's +6 @ lvl 17.
Agreed on the importance of getting bonus spells known with Crossblooded (you will gain spell levels before you gain spells known of that level), but ElK does not really screw you over on bloodline spells like you suggest.
Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
None of the benefits granted is limited to a specific class feature (or table), you get the given benefits as if from gaining a level of the chosen class you are advancing. Bloodline spells are spells known and gained by advancing levels, so they are granted by the casting progression of ElK. If you take an Arcane BL Sorceror into ElK, they would get BL spells as well as the 'New Arcana' spells known at 9/13/17th caster level progression.
Okay, so I have a few things to catch up on.
@ BoombOx, there is a way around. Some people say that style feats only include the first in the style chain that actually has the word "Style" in the title, so to them Dragon Ferocity is not a Style Feat. I think that's kinda silly since all of the feats in all of the style chains are underneath a heading in the PRD that says "Style Feats", but everyone is entitled to their opinion, however silly.
In this case, you would take Dragon Ferocity as your bonus feat at level 1 of Unarmed fighter then when you qualify for Dragon style at level 3 you take it then. You won't be able to use Dragon ferocity until then but it still is the only way to go if you don't want to dip monk and lose more BAB. Still, it isn't a terrible choice to go monk either, so if your GM won't allow it, you aren't losing that much for a one level dip.
@ SpoCk0nd0pe, the build is important. A 4th attack isn't that great, since it is at -15 to your BAB, so it only really hits on weak creatures. When you get FoTD II, you can get 6 attacks a round regardless of your BAB. Robes of AH don't give you bloodline spells, so if you are crossblooded, you won't have an 8th level spell. If I seemed to think that it did before, I guess I made a mistake. It wouldn't be the first time.
@ Power Flower, I believe that limit is in reference to the actual wish spell, not to any other ability that provides Inherent bonuses. The thing you should keep in mind is that when it was written, there were no other ways to get Inherent bonuses.
@ Mathaius Erinhir, I haven't looked at the feats. It was hard enough to write everything I thought about the stuff I have access to. Although they do sound great. Maybe I will buy them and show them to my home GM.
@ Quandary, that's a cool interpretation and if I could get a GM to allow it, I would be ecstatic. The only problem I see with it is that most people would interpret "Any other benefit" as class features such as bloodline spells. Its just another thing to hash out with your GM I suppose.
@ RuyanVe, not everything that has wings gets a wing buffet, sorry. You might talk a GM into letting you, but it will probably cost a feat.
@ Mathaius Erinhir, I haven't looked at the feats. It was hard enough to write everything I thought about the stuff I have access to. Although they do sound great. Maybe I will buy them and show them to my home GM.
There's a free PDF download of them here: http://www.vallusgames.com/books/Pathfinder%20-%20Undefeatable%2014%20-%20D ragon%20Disciple.pdf
Found this guide and found it very awesome, so I'd like to post my resulting character. It's probably been thought of before but I think it has turned out very well.
Tiefling alternate racial trait gives me two permanent claws which I've stuck on my feat. My third-level bloodline power was to get the Claws from the Abyssal bloodline, giving me 14 rounds per day of claws.
Weapon Master gives me weapon training (not that I need armour) which will eventually be made triply as awesome by some Gloves of Dueling.
Only one level of Sorcerer denies me my extra bloodline spell and power, but the next level will take care of that and in the meantime weapon specialization is quite delicious.
I end up with, when using Arcane Strike and my second set of claws, power attacking with four claws each at +11 to hit dealing 1d6+13 damage. I know Shield for some extra protection and I will be begging my party members for a shot of Haste, and Mage Armor (though I'll be able to cast it myself next level). Plus, you know, awesome blood of dragons and demons running through me.
Thanks again for your guie!
I'm a big fan of "going with what you know." The monk knows Stunning Fist at level 1, so let's focus on that.
Here's the chassis...
The Stunning Disciple:
Fighter 1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse OR Power Attack, Mantis Style
Monk 1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Fuse Style (2), Mantis Wisdom
Sorcerer 1- Eschew Materials, Dragon Style
DD 1- Blood of Dragons, NA +1
The build allows for either a STR build or a DEX build. I plan on using him as a BBEG in my own adventure path. Any tweaks either thematically or optimally appreciated.
GM Arkwright wrote:
Great guide, this really makes me want to play a dragon disciple.
What do you think of building a dragon disciple as a shapeshifter, starting with 4 levels of sorcerer and 1 martial (probably guide ranger over fighter) and focusing on using the monstrous physique line of spells? You'd be able to get monstrous physique I at level 8 and II at level 11 (if you don't go crossblooded), giving flying forms with 4-6 natural attacks (gargoyle, popobala, four armed gargoyle) with a slight stat and armor boost, while still being able to use all your spells and equipment. And off course, building to get the mot out of shapeshifting also lets you get the most out of form of the dragon.
I did notice two small errors in your guide when thinking about this build, by the way.
STR Ranger wrote:
Problem here is that if Int becomes caster stat then charisma gets dumped to an extent and for the Eldritch Heritage feat you need very high charisma towards the end.
I was toying with different ideas for a dragon disciple using natural attacks when I found this guide. Since the race part needs updating due to the ARG, I thought I'd share some of my notes, though bear in mind I'm sort of an amateur when it comes to this sort of thing, so please forgive any mistakes.
Hello! With the release of Kobolds of Golarion, we've had some interesting updates in the ways to get to DD. I'm unsure of the policy when it comes to quoting their materials, so I'll just reference it, the feat Scaled Disciple basically allows you to enter DD as an Oracle with zero levels of any arcane class, and instead of advancing an arcane class you advance your Oracle/Inquisitor spellcasting. The wording is "spontaneous divine spellcasting" so I'm unsure, but if the spontaneous cures of a cleric or spontaneous summons of a druid count, both of those would also become candidates for entering the PrC. RAI Oracles and Inquisitors definitely work, RAW I think Clerics and Druids work too. The only downside is that it reqs include being a Kobold so if being small size is a deal breaker then there you go. On the upside, DD Kobold makes sense from a fluff point of view.
Personally, I think this bumps Kobolds up to at least green, and Oracle to Blue (for Kobolds), and the Inquisitor will finally deserve a mention in the guide.
@Aceswyldwe Kobolds with the Dragonmaw alternative racial trait gain a bite attack.
Robert K wrote:
You can possibly qualify for the class using Cleric or Druid (though I don't think so), but it wouldn't increase your spellcasting because they're not spontaneous divine classes, so I would suggest sticking with Oracle or Inquisitor. Below is the text, with what I consider the important parts highlighted.
Scaled Disciple wrote:
...Your spontaneous divine spellcasting qualifies in place of arcane casting for the dragon disciple prestige class, and you may increase spellcasting in your spontaneous divine class as you progress in dragon disciple levels...
neat little human (focused study particularly) or half-elf setup might be:
sorcerer (crossblooded wildblooded infernal(pit-touched)/draconic (black)) X / antipaladin (or paladin if your GM is a goody-goody) 2-3 / DD 10 / sorcerer X
grab eldritch heritage feats for abyssal's STR bonus and laugh at all the mods you're rolling in (infernal's CON, abyssal's STR, and DD's misc bonuses to lots) on a very SAD character (cha is for spells, saves, smiting--which is attacks and armor).
possibly dipping a single level in oracle for sidestep secret (lore) or nature's whispers (nature) for yet more SADness.
as for the wildblooded/crossblooded combo, ive seen it argued both ways (much like qinggong+other AT monks), so it's up to the DM.
As a Elf you can take 2 Level Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle to get in DD.
I think this could be a nice combo for Barbarian+Lame-Oracle+Dragon-Disciple.
Der Origami Mann wrote:
only 2 levels? im not sure how.
I don't think that works, you're selecting a normally arcane Wiz/Sorc spell, but it's becoming one of your (oracle) spells known.
I would like to try that Archetype with a Rage Prophet build though...
actually, using der origami man's idea i've assembled a thing (and it has a sorcerer level to meet the arcane casting prereq):
elf level 20:
-grab either 1st-level bloodline ability (shaken touch ability or claws), draconic 3rd (natural armor), infernal 9th (con bonus), either 15th (flight) (with robe on)
* - though it looks like you'd get 2x cha to reflex between the paladin and lore oracle bonuses, discussion here and particularly in linked threads therein suggest that this particular instance (untyped bonus equal to a stat) wouldn't stack.
a point of note: you can easily reduce the oracle levels (down to just 1 if you want!) in place of more sorcerer or paladin levels, depending on your fancy. the only real thing you miss out on in this case is mental acuity's INT bonus, since you can purchase the others via the extra revelation feat.
so if you want more BAB/defenses/small paladin spells, go with paladin
alternate race: you could potentially use a Focused Study Human with racial heritage (elf) in your early levels to still be able to get into elven lorekeeper, and have the skill focus feats to grab both the abyssal and arcane bloodlines (arcane for even more arcane spell cherry-picking to work with spontaneous symbology and the elven lorekeeper chosen spells) play a true "red mage" with a mix of arcane, divine, and martial powers.
Feral Combat Training does not work the way described in the guide. You must "Choose one of your natural weapons." when taking the feat. So for each natural weapon you want to apply e.g. Dragon Style to, you need both Weapon Focus and FCT.
In my opinion, this kills the Monk as a dip option.