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Help with my "Magehunter" (Bountyhunter specializing in Spellcasters)


Advice


Hey,

I am begging for good advice from you all, since some of my group voice concern about my way of building characters.

My friends usually go for "standard builds" that have proven themselves, they also try to persuade me to stay single-class, but that's not my style.
I think cookie-cutter is boring :o), so I usually come up with a crazy idea (like my Bountyhunter specializing in Spellcasters) and then try to mix and match whatever seems best to be good at that: classes, feats, spells.

Current Party (Jade Regent):
- 1 Barbarian (good Offense, average Defense)
- 1 Cleric (specialized in Healing/Repairing and Quaterstaves, good Defense)
- 1 Sorcerer (not sure what his focus is)
- me
(we are trying to get 1 more to join, but we have issues with play-times)

I am a level 2 Inquisitor and intend to take Arcane Duelist (Bard) next.
(Magus was not an option when I rolled stats and now my int is too low to change).
Race: Halfling (I like small and my Domain makes up for lost speed)
God: Desna, Domain: Travel, Weapon: Starknife
My end build would look like this:
Inquisitor 6 + Arcane Duelist 14

Class Stuff:

Dmn: nimble footed (Ign.terrain 3+Wis rounds)
Intuitive initiative
Tracking
Detect Alignment
Teamwork: Precise Strike
Bane Weapon
Detect Lies
Teamwork feat (chooseable)
-------------
Arcane Strike (Magical Knack should increase this to a total +4, if I add Judgement +Damage that's a total +6, they do stack, right?)
Combat Casting
Distracting
Spellbreaking
Penetrating Strike

Feats:

Traits - Birthmark/Student Survivalist
1 - Weapon Finesse
3 - Add. Trait: Magical Knack(inqui)/Magical Knack(bard)
5 - Combat Reflexes
7 - Improved Arcane Bond
9 - Step Up
11 - Following Step
13 - Dimensional Agility
15 - Dimensional Assault
17 - Step Up and Strike
19 - Teleport Tactician

Improved Arcane Bond is kinda mandatory, because it gives me SR and increases my already good saves (that SR and saves are good... right?).

I'm not sure if I should switch out some feats? But these sound good for an anti-caster build?

My biggest problem is my spell list however:
(Not taken in that order)
Spells with "-" will be replaced as soon as I get better alternative through class features or higher spells.

Inqui:

Acid Splash
Create Water
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Stabilize
Read Magic

-Forced Quiet (had to get this because of our Barbarian stomping and clanging and ruining my scouting efforts ^^)
-Returning Weapon
Litany of Sloth
Deadeye's Lore
Wrath
Protection from Evil

Bloodhound
Howling Agony
Spiritual Weapon
Silence

Bard:

Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Mending
Prestidigitation
Mage Hand
Ghost Sound

Grease
Undetectable Alignment
Feather Fall
Restful Sleep
Touch Of Gracelessness
Vanish

Versatile Weapon (to make up for specialized weapon)
Allegro (does this work with Bladethirst?)
Glitterdust
Alter Self
Blurr
Mirror Image
Blood Biography
Steal Voice
(Too many spells here, but I can't make up my mind, maybe drop 1 feat for Expanded Arcana?)

-Dispel Magic
Terrible Remorse
Exquisite Accompaniment
Good Hope
Phantom Steed
Slow

Dimension Door
Freedom of Movement
Shadow Walk/Dance of a Hundred Cuts
Echolocation

Cloak Of Dreams
Unwilling Shield
Dispel Magic, Greater

The idea for spell selection are:
- increase tracking/locating/gain information
- anti-spellcaster (no save, fortitude save, reflex save, ...)
- selfbuffs (I'm not that much into group buffing, I'd rather disable foes)

To sum up my questions:
- when should I level what class? (progression)
- should I change some feats?
- pleeeeeaaaase give me some advice for my spell list :-)

I don't know what is required for Jade Regent, and to be honest I'd rather not know to not spoiler anything.

thank you for any input, advice and help in advance :-)


You can't take the Magical Knack trait twice.
You can only have one trait of any particular type (social, magic, faith, etc)... and the Additional Traits feat does not bypass this restriction.


EvilMinion wrote:

You can't take the Magical Knack trait twice.

You can only have one trait of any particular type (social, magic, faith, etc)... and the Additional Traits feat does not bypass this restriction.

Also traits do not stack if the modify the same thing.

The only other advice I would give without spoilering anything is 'social abilities' seem to be important in JR. Definitely take skills such as diplomacy, sense motive, lingustics, etc... You may also want to switch out a few spells that can be used for info gathering or protection in social situations.


Oh, thanks, good to know I can only take Magical Knack once.

And I do intend to have high sense motive.
Diplomacy and linguistics I hadn't decided until now, I'll see... thanks for the advice.

Andoran

Just saw your post on the other thread for differing build ideas for this concept.

Putting the greatest weight on improving saves, I would try the Halfling Opportunist way (PrC from Halflings of Golarion) : improved saves and sneak attacks on AoO. With a base of Bard and Paladin, which would make it all about CHA. Bard for using Perform for Sense Motive and the spells/boost and Paladin for the saves.
You can also use some Ninja levels for added sneak attack and tricks.


Personally, I think a paladin or monk makes a better anti-caster due to great saves.

But your build is not unreasonable. I'm not really familiar with the inquisitor.

I would say consider improved counter spell. But not sure. Since your caster level will never be high you might not succeed enough to be worth it.

Your caster level is low and you have to split between casting stats, so your DC's will never be sky high. I would say concentrate your offensive spells on ones that do not get a save or are still pretty useful if the save is made. I'm still learning which spells those are myself so don't have a lot of suggestions.

Consider the feats to improve your saves.

You are likely to see a bunch of negative comments about a bard that doesn't do group buffing, but I have no problem with it.

I don't see too much other than the arcane deulist that is anti-caster. I don't have a problem with that, just doesn't seem to match your title. There were several feats that allowed someone to mess with a caster, but I don't remember what they were off the top of my head. I may try to find them later.


Another way to go would be the Witch Hunter Inquisitor archetype (UC). Knowledgeable Defense gives you a bonus to saves or dodge to AC against spells you identify with Spellcraft (which the Witch Hunter can add her Wisdom modifier to).

The majority of the Witch Hunter's abilities are gained by 6th level as well, so you could still use your Inq 6 + AD 14 build


I severly dislike playing paladins for some reason... maybe once a DM was too picky with codes of honor and since then they are despised by my group? Not sure, we very rarely have paladins in our groups :-)

Imho an inquisitor is best described (RP wise) as a crossbreed between cleric and ranger: he gains some damage bonus and tracking which reminds me of rangers, while working for a deitie's church (without the strict paladin code part).

My fellow players don't really know my build... I announced her as a "magehunter" and that's what I'm trying to focus on. :-)
I made sure to be the party scout with tracking and high survival and decent knowledge skills. Also, I think arcane duelists cannot run inspiring songs and enhance their weapon at the same time anyways, right?

And as a side note, I did know that our cleric wants to be very group focussed, so I'd rather let him shine with the party stuff...

I did think about the Witch Hunter... but it's main perk is at inqui 6... also that book was not out when we started, I'd have to convince our DM :-/
but he might like that since my high monster identification is buggin' him 8-)

The inqui part was to represent locating and tracking evil mages, while the arcane duelist part was about actually fighting the evil mages?
My main worry is that I tend to multiclass my characters into weak (sometimes nearly useless) jack-of-all-trades.
To assess usefulness, I'd rather like to compare this build to a straight ranger, as this is the "role" I fill in my group.
Unfortunately I've got no idea how to compare builds, to see if they are about equal in power. Main culprit being items, as a good pick of items can make or break any build. And then you can have the DM messing up stuff because item x is a no-go in his game... :-S

This build strongly relies on Improved Arcane Bond for later levels against spellcasters, it would give me the folloing:
- Spell resistance would be 23 at level 11 and increase to SR=28 by level 20... is that decent or just a waste of time?
- Between levels 7 and 20 she would gain up to +4 to all saves, which does not seem bad to me (it does stack with everything I hope)? as Inqui gets good fort and will and bard gets good refl and will... am I totally wrong?
this of course requires her to wield her weapon for these boni, but she'd have max sense motive to grab her weapon before any fight starts unless caught by surprise, but part of her skills/spells/items should be dedicated to not be surprised in the first place, is that idea reasonable?

thank you again for all the input :-)
hopefully this time my multiclass will be balanced


Kyoni wrote:
...My main worry is that I tend to multiclass my characters into weak (sometimes nearly useless) jack-of-all-trades...

We have a guy in our group that does this all the time. Personally, I think the main culprit is that he has never tried a single class PC. So he doesn't really understand any of them well or what they can do. Several times I have tried to show him a single class build that will do everything he says he wants better than his triple class build that can't do anything until level 10 and still isn't great at it even then.

I would suggest that at least once in awhile, you try a single class PC to see if it can do what you want. What you described as what you want to do, can probably be done better with just a ranger, just an inquisitor, or just an arcane deulist build. It a guess, I'd say just take arcane duelist with the tracking feat.

The combination you are proposing is not completely unreasonable, but it is very difficult. You have a combination that basically needs every single ability at least moderately high. You need to melee weapon fight, you have 2 different casting stats, can't wear heavy armor, and want to be diplomatic, need good saves to fight spellcasters, etc... I'm not saying this is impossible, but it definitely isn't easy. And it is practically the definition of what you just said you are worried about making.


Thinking about it some more, part of it may come from relying on the class descriptions.

Kyoni wrote:
...The inqui part was to represent locating and tracking evil mages, while the arcane duelist part was about actually fighting the evil mages?...

Tracking evil mages does not mean you have to be an inquisitor. That is one possible way to get the ability to track down something, but not the only one.

Fighting an evil mage does not require an arcane duelist. Really, I'm not sure they are even the best at it. I certainly think a straight either one would be better at it than a combination of the 2 classes. You would be able to cast higher level spells and concentrate on a casting stat.


Kyoni wrote:
I severly dislike playing paladins for some reason... maybe once a DM was too picky with codes of honor and since then they are despised by my group? Not sure, we very rarely have paladins in our groups ...

{sigh} This is a very common attitude and, I think, for exactly the reason you described. I often try to talk people into giving them another chance. We have a new player in our group who is trying one and I think most of the group was very surpised at how well it is working out. It is worth a discussion with the GM 1st and some hypothetical situations to see how strict he is going to be to see if it is playable in your situation.

But if you don't think you will enjoy it, don't bother.


Pure Arcane Duelists have no means to become decent at tracking afaik?
They usually have low wisdom and survival is not a class skill for them, so they will be ~7 points behind a same-level inquisitor.

The inquisitor cannot get a decent spell resistance (no arcane bond and no UMD), saves are nice but when you fail the save, you fail... and many spells hurt a lot even if you make the save, SR cancels the entire spell.

So one of my very big questions:
is that SR (23 at level 11 and 28 at level 20) good or worthless?

I'm not sure how higher level spells will help beating mages more easily? At least I fail to find awesome high level anti-mage spells in the bard or inqui lists that require a high casting stat?

I'd be really interested to see an Inqui build that is good at fighting mages... because right now I don't see how an Inqui could have a high win-chance against an same-level witch or sorcerer.
Sure an inqui could probably rely on wisdom as his only stat, through feats/weapon enchantments, I guess, but I still fail to see how that makes him a serious headache for spellcasters?

What makes a Paladin so good at it? smite evil, high saves and high HP?


Kyoni wrote:

Pure Arcane Duelists have no means to become decent at tracking afaik?

They usually have low wisdom and survival is not a class skill for them, so they will be ~7 points behind a same-level inquisitor...

A trait and skill focus will make up most of that difference if you need it. I have never found a really high track skill to be necessary. Usually if someone even has the track skill at all you can usually follow what you need. Also, there is magical location which usually seems to work better anyway. A mage is fairly likely to be using magic to move so nothing to track anyway.

Kyoni wrote:
The inquisitor cannot get a decent spell resistance (no arcane bond and no UMD), saves are nice but when you fail the save, you fail... and many spells hurt a lot even if you make the save, SR cancels the entire spell.

The divine spell list has quite a few spells that buff your saves or otherwise protect you from spells.

Kyoni wrote:

So one of my very big questions:

is that SR (23 at level 11 and 28 at level 20) good or worthless?

I think it is great if you survive to that point, it can be a game maker.

Kyoni wrote:
I'm not sure how higher level spells will help beating mages more easily? At least I fail to find awesome high level anti-mage spells in the bard or inqui lists that require a high casting stat?

Just the DC being higher is a major help. DC 2-3 higher from 1 stat. DC another 2-3 higher from higher level spell slots. Heck a simple slow spell heightened to put in an 8th level slot suddenly becomes pretty good.

Kyoni wrote:

I'd be really interested to see an Inqui build that is good at fighting mages... because right now I don't see how an Inqui could have a high win-chance against an same-level witch or sorcerer.

Sure an inqui could probably rely on wisdom as his only stat, through feats/weapon enchantments, I guess, but I still fail to see how that makes him a serious headache for spellcasters?

I don't know the inquisitor that well. But in general a small number of high level spells is much much more poewerful than hordes of low level spells. Most mage battles that I've seen are at most 2 rounds until someone fails a save. So your large number of spells don't usually do you lots of good. One of the bigg reasons is you have higher level slots for metamagic like quickened spells so you can get 2 dangerous spells off in a round. He's twice as likely to fail at least one of them. A common tactic is a quickened SoS spell with a reflex save and a heightened SoS spell with a fort save.

Kyoni wrote:
What makes a Paladin so good at it? smite evil, high saves and high HP?

That's exactly it. Can easily make with a +4 to +7 on all saves and horrendous damage with a smite to take him down quickly. Especially an archer paladin so you don't have to close to melee range.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
A trait and skill focus will make up most of that difference if you need it. I have never found a really high track skill to be necessary. Usually if someone even has the track skill at all you can usually follow what you need. Also, there is magical location which usually seems to work better anyway. A mage is fairly likely to be using magic to move so nothing to track anyway.

I doubt that Necromancers teleport their undead armies around though... this was more a well-rounded bountyhunter skill-selection and to actually cover a role in my group.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

The divine spell list has quite a few spells that buff your saves or otherwise protect you from spells.

[...]
Just the DC being higher is a major help. DC 2-3 higher from 1 stat. DC another 2-3 higher from higher level spell slots. Heck a simple slow spell heightened to put in an 8th level slot suddenly becomes pretty good.

Um... your lack of knowing the inquisitor is misleading you... inquisitors are really halfway between ranger and cleric in everything... ranger max spells are level 4, cleric max spells are level 9... inqui has a max spell level of 6 and the same progression as the bard. No casting of 8th/9th level spells anyways. The inqui also has medium BAB.

Here's a few spells that could be useable in combat if you want to go full-caster inqui (which would be as effective as a full-caster bard, imho not worth it):
Spoiler:

Unwilling Shield
School necromancy; Level bard 5, inquisitor 5, sorcerer/wizard 6, witch 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (ruby dust worth 250 gp)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Like shield other, unwilling shield creates a mystic connection between you and the target, but unlike shield other, the target shares the wounds that you receive. In addition, the link draws upon the target's life force to supplement your own defenses. You gain a +1 luck bonus to AC and on saving throws. You take only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by you is taken by the target. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, ability damage, level draining, and death effects are not affected. If you take a reduction in hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with the target because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between you and the subject, but damage already split is not assigned to you.
If you and the target of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell remains active, but damage is no longer shared until you are once again within range of each other.

Castigate
School enchantment (compulsion) [fear, language-dependent, mind-affecting]; Level inquisitor 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round/level or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw Will partial; Spell Resistance yes
You compel the target to beg for forgiveness. On a failed save, the target cowers with fear. On a successful save, it is shaken for 1 round. Each round on its turn, a cowering subject may attempt a new save to end the effect. A creature who worships the same god as you takes a –2 penalty on its saving throw.

Castigate, Mass
School enchantment (compulsion) [fear, language-dependent, mind-affecting]; Level inquisitor 5
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions as castigate, except it affects many creatures.

Overwhelming Presence
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 6, cleric 9, inquisitor 6, sorcerer/wizard 9
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a swan feather)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates, see text; Spell Resistance yes
Your presence inspires incredible awe in those nearby. A creature that fails a save against this spell falls to the ground and prostrates itself before you, believing it bows before a divine presence. A flying creature incapable of hovering must land immediately in order to prostrate itself. These creatures are considered to be helpless for the duration of the spell. Each round on its turn, a target of this spell may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect; this is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A creature that recovers from this spell early after being affected by it for at least 1 round takes 1d6 points of Wisdom drain and is staggered for 1d4 rounds. A creature that makes the initial save to resist this spell is merely staggered for 1 round.

Fleshworm Infestation
School conjuration (summoning) [evil]; Level cleric 4, inquisitor 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Preparation Time 40 minutes
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
With a touch, you cause an infestation of ravenous worms to manifest in the target's flesh. The target must make a Fortitude save every round. Failure means it takes 1d6 hit points of damage and 2 points of Dexterity damage, and is staggered for 1 round. If it makes the save, it takes no hit point or Dexterity damage and is only sickened for 1 round rather than staggered. Fleshworm infestation cannot be ended early by remove disease or heal, as the infestation starts anew if the current worms are slain. Protection from evil negates this spell's effects for as long as the two durations overlap. Dispel evil automatically ends a fleshworm infestation.

Curse of Magic Negation
School abjuration [curse]; Level cleric 5, inquisitor 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (powdered lead and platinum worth 250 gp)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 10 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance no
You disrupt the target creature's ability to draw upon magical energies. For the duration of the spell, it gains the negated spellblight (see page 97). Dispel checks to remove the spellblight take a –5 penalty due to this spell's interference with magical energies.

Named Bullet
School divination; Level inquisitor 4, ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (an item from the selected creature or creature type)
Range touch
Target one piece of ammunition or one thrown weapon
Duration 10 minutes/level or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
You imbue the target with deadly accuracy against a selected creature type (and subtype for humanoids or outsiders) or a specific creature you know and can name. When used against the selected creature, the ammunition never misfires and is unaffected by concealment (but not total concealment), and at a range of 30 feet or less, the attack targets the selected creature's touch AC. When the target hits the selected creature, you must overcome that creature's spell resistance, or this spell has no effect. A normal hit scored using the target against the selected creature is considered to be a critical threat and deals 1 extra point of damage per caster level (maximum 20), which is not multiplied on a critical hit. A natural critical hit deals the same extra damage, but that damage is multiplied due to the critical.
Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.

Litany of Thunder
School evocation [language dependent, sonic]; Level antipaladin 4, inquisitor 5, paladin 4
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You call down a thunderous boom upon your enemy. The target becomes deafened until the condition is removed, and is confused for 1 round.
While subject to this spell, the target cannot be the target of another spell that has the word "litany" in the title.

Litany of Madness
School enchantment (charm) [language dependent]; Level antipaladin 4, inquisitor 6
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 or more rounds (see below)
Saving Throw no, see below; Spell Resistance yes
This litany is a sermon of madness. The target is confused. At the start of each of its turns, it can make a saving throw against the confused effect (DC of the spell). If the target fails the save, it continues to be confused. If it makes the save, the effect ends.
While subject to this spell, the target cannot be the target of another spell that has the word "litany" in the title.


Imho this 1st level spell is a killer for mages though and should be worth the dip:
Spoiler:

Litany of Sloth
School enchantment (compulsion) [language dependent, mind-affecting]; Level antipaladin 1, inquisitor 1, paladin 1
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw no; Spell Resistance yes
With a litany against the wages of sloth, you slow the target's defenses. The target cannot make attacks of opportunity or cast spells defensively.
While subject to this spell, the target cannot be the target of another spell that has the word "litany" in the title.

So... as a swift action with _ no save allowed_ you cast this on your BBEG mage, then get next to him (good movement or DimDoor), then wait for him to cast a spell... (note that he cannot 5-foot-step away or teleport away easily due to my feat selection).
Well at least that's the theory. :-S

Imho, if you like paladins, you should really have a look at the inqui... I think you might really like to give him a try:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/inquisitor.html
:-)


Kyoni wrote:
...Um... your lack of knowing the inquisitor is misleading you... inquisitors are really halfway between ranger and cleric in everything... ranger max spells are level 4, cleric max spells are level 9... inqui has a max spell level of 6 and the same progression as the bard. No casting of 8th/9th level spells anyways...

Ok, yeah I missed that. Even so, a 5th or 6th level spell (or your 1st level Litany heightened to 5th or 6th level) will get past a minor globe of invulnerability. I see those about a 1/2 the time on mages if we don't surprise them.

Kyoni wrote:
...Imho, if you like paladins, you should really have a look at the inqui... I think you might really like to give him a try:...

Actually, I'd love to. Up until now, I've been just about the only one in our group willing to play the primary spellcaster. So I've been pushed into cleric or wizard (oracle or sorc) PC's recently. However, I think I've finally got some others to the point where they are willing to give it a try. So I might be able to next campaign. Also been considering the cavalier. It will probably depend on what the campaign background sounds like at the time.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Ok, yeah I missed that. Even so, a 5th or 6th level spell (or your 1st level Litany heightened to 5th or 6th level) will get past a minor globe of invulnerability. I see those about a 1/2 the time on mages if we don't surprise them.

Wow, so your DM actually has your BBEG fully perpared and buffed when you guys show up? that spell only lasts rounds?

But you make a good point: I really need to find a good way to dispel magic in a reliable way, to strip the BBEG's magical defenses.

the spells dispel magic and greater dispel magic use caster level only and don't care about your casting stat... bad news is: my caster level would be 16 for the bard (14 +2 from magical knack)

mhmmmm... need to find more stuff to increase caster level:
magical knack... that ioun stone... not sure my DM will allow practiced spellcaster since it's 3.5... anything else?

that could also make these feats worth considering?
- Destructive Dispel
- Dispelling Critical
- Dispel Synergy
but then I'm rather fond of most feats I picked... (maybe I can do without Dimensional Assault)


LOL, we are not a very sneaky group for the last 2 campaigns. Last campaign we had an envoker that made things go boom and an armored hulk exploding and clanking through most fights. Now we have an armored hulk gunslinger. He tends to lose us the element of surprise very quickly.

Many modules and DM's will have a list.
"If the wizards gets warning that invaders are in the castle he casts the following buffs in this order. Round 1 Mage Armor, round 2 Foxes Cunning, round 3 Minor Globe of Invulnerability, round 4 Summon Monster V, etc..."

Unfortunately, we sometimes make so much noise that they can hear us from a long ways away and get their entire list up. Believe me a 16th level necromancer that gets to put up all his choice defenses is nearly unkillable.


Kyoni wrote:
Wow, so your DM actually has your BBEG fully perpared and buffed when you guys show up? that spell only lasts rounds?

many bbeg learn to cast time stop for just these occasions


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Last campaign we had an envoker that made things go boom and an armored hulk exploding and clanking through most fights. Now we have an armored hulk gunslinger. He tends to lose us the element of surprise very quickly.

Nobody ever said you are not allowed to use this spell on party members... :D

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/forcedQuiet.html#fo rced-quiet

I used this on our shouting and boasting barbarian (tricked him into thinking I was buffing him, too), it created some very fun and memorable moments as his player RP'd it in a hilarious way. 8-)

While Time Stop can be devastating, we've only played this far once (level 17). That DM quickly banned this spell from existence as our Cleric (Trickery Domain) and Wizard both used it to wreak havok without the enemies ever getting a chance to do anything (and our fighters/rogues were twiddling their thumbs).
And yes, usually we are the ones who get the surprise round. :D
Also level ~17 is the time where our DMs start to give up as spellcasters tend to reach near-god status by then.

But, yea, you both confirm that a reliable way to strip all those spells with a little "Greater Dispel Magic" is a very good idea. ...need more caster level boosting...


Mages are usually pretty intelligent, and not prone to sitting around getting surprised. Especially if you have to fight your way to them through some minions. Rare is the mage I've ever encountered in a RPG who didn't start buffed up pretty heavily.

That said....going with archery and a Seeking weapon can negate a TON of a wizard's best defenses. Obviously, you'll want to watch out for people using Wind Wall or that horrific 1 min/level buff spell from Ultimate Magic that completely negates archers (Fickle Winds...ugh). But with a Seeking weapon you can ignore Blur and Displacement, and if the Wizard has Mirror Image up you can simply close your eyes and shoot them, with the Seeking enhancement negating the miss chance since you know what square the wizard is in.

Aside from those two Wind Effects, archers are usually capable of hosing casters, from what I've experienced. With those wind spells in play, you'll need an alternate route, such as a Returning Seeking Spear that you can just ready for when a caster casts a spell, and then disrupt it by doing damage. The seeking ability on a non projectile thrown weapon should negate the 30% miss chance imposed by the wind effects. 10 + damage dealt + spell level can make for a pretty high concentration check.


Kyoni wrote:

...Nobody ever said you are not allowed to use this spell on party members... :D

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/forcedQuiet.html#fo rced-quiet...

I really wish that spell had been available in the previous campaign. I'm trying to find someone to teach my wizard or sell me a scroll of that spell. Although, I'm not sure even a +4 on stealth checks is enough to help with our clanking cannon.

He hasn't used it yet, but we finally got him to start carrying a bow. Only because he charged into a room full of explosive gas then started shooting. Set it off twice before he decided to run back out of the room. He was only still conscious because of the witch healing him a little. He seems to finally realize it is not always the ideal weapon.


Kyoni wrote:
...need more caster level boosting...

Then why don´t you give it a try and drop the bard...please ?

I´m also a big fan of multiclassing, but Pathfinder really doesn´t support or reward this. You´ll get to the higher level spells quicker with only one class, among other things.
Recently i played the inquisitor of a friend, so i´m somewhat familiar and would recommend weapon of awe, flames of the faithful and keen.
Searing light is also great, exspecially with a rod to maximize the levels.
BTW if it had to be multiclass, i´d consider half-elf and ranger-levels.
Fav. enemy human or ranger-focus, a combat-style for switch-hitting ?
And a heavy repeating crossbow.

Shadow Lodge

If I might make a suggestion?

In my expieriance Magic users fly, a lot. A ranged character might make for a better mage killer, someone who can ready actions to interrupt an enemies spell casting and an Inquisitor does make a good ranged character with his buffing spells and built-in Bane.

And this only gets better as he progresses with greater bane at 12th lvl. And don't forget the Inquisitor's Stalward ability which gives you Evasion for Will and Fort saves which are far nastier than Ref save spells generally.

I would also look into the Spellbreaker archtype from Ultimate Combat. You can find it under the PRD Here

I honestly think this would make for a heck of a Mage killer.

*edit for spelling*


RedPorcupine wrote:

Then why don´t you give it a try and drop the bard...please ?

I´m also a big fan of multiclassing, but Pathfinder really doesn´t support or reward this. You´ll get to the higher level spells quicker with only one class, among other things.

I really fail to see how a pure inquisitor can beat a mage other then doing enough damage to kill him first... why is disrupting and dispelling and tactics to disable such a bad idea?

It's almost like the discussion about the use of a character that is good with healing.

Back on topic: I'd have to go full arcane duelist in that case (Distracting, Spellbreaking, Penetrating Strike,...)
I guess I could change to Inqui2/Bard18, thus getting full bard caster level thanks to magical knack? That way I'd keep all the anti-casting gimicks and "Step Up and Strike" series to make sure the mage doesn't step away?
Starknives can be thrown, while the distance might not be as good as a spear, it's still ranged.

Is it really all about the damage and items? :.(
it's sad that tactics to make spellcasting a nightmare for the enemy mage seems so "boring", high damage and readying and that's it? the mage could just try to feint with a useless quickened low-level spell (are these even affected by concentration checks? I guess not) and then use their standard action to cast that bad SoS when my readied action is gone or the mage could try to break line of sight or whatever?

@Kieviel
thanks for pointing out the flying aspect, I'll keep that in mind and make sure I can counter it properly.
I'm kinda hoping that a starknife with the arcane duelist's "on-the-fly" weapon enhances will be enough: distance, returning and seeking are available through that feature after all.


Yeah, other than another mage, the tactics for taking down a mage are doing damage and disrupting spellcasting through....doing damage.

The best mage-hunter I ever played was an Eldritch Archer. If he won initiative he could pretty much do enough damage and avoid mage's defenses reliably to outright kill a caster. If he didn't win initiative....well, he hoped to make whatever save was thrown his way or to avoid notice in the first place. If the baddie focused on my archer tho, he usually got cornered by a melee'r. That's really the best way to go about mage-hunting...try to make it so there's no fantastic options for them, if possible.


Kyoni wrote:

... why is disrupting and dispelling and tactics to disable such a bad idea?

It's almost like the discussion about the use of a character that is good with healing.

Hrmm..., i didn´t say that and i said " please" ?

Admitedly, i don´t really understand what your trying to do with the bard-side so urgently. I just checked the inquisitor spellbreaker-archetype, slapped the spellkiller- inquisition in on hero-lab and my jaw dropped. Not that i´m really into it yet, but it seemed viable, for what you want.
PS: Will propably play it, next chance i get.;)
PPS: Ah, now i see, bonus feats as non-fighter.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A Guided weapon will cut down on MAD, and give you incentive to stick with the class, a wise choice. If you do multiclass, I suggest cleric, as the two classes have good synergy. Channel smite and guided hand will do half of what the guided weapon property will do, but still cut down on MAD.


@RedPorcupine: whoops, I didn't notice that the spellkiller-inquisition gets the feat "Disruptive", nice.
Also the Arcane Duelist gets spell resistance (Improved Arcana Bond Feat)... unless you are saying SpellResist 23 at level 11 and 28 at level 20 is not worth bothering? I always liked SR as it works against most spells that don't allow for a saving throw too... and if you make the SR you are not effected at all, making this better then Evasion and Stalward... or will this never work out the way I think because that SR is too low?
Compared to a Monk:
level 11 Weirdo = SR 23
level 13 Monk = SR 23
level 20 Weirdo = SR 28
level 20 Monk = SR 30
So my weirdo gets SR sooner, but Monk pulls ahead at later levels.
Is the Monk only good against mages because of his saves and his spell resistance is pointless?

What feats would you all suggest if I were going full Inqui?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If you choose Mahathallah as your patron, you can take the net feats, and really screw with spellcasters.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Cixyron's chosen weapon is the musket, and you could combine that with the amateur gunslinger feat.


Kyoni wrote:


What feats would you all suggest if I were going full Inqui?

Quickly browsing through the huge list of feats, only arcane vendetta and branded for retribution jumped at me. They add only damage, but the inquisitor disruptive stacks. Disruptive spell ?

Actually i just added ranged feats, point blank, precise shot, deadly aim and quick draw for switch-hitting. Itching to get my hands on a heavy repeating crossbow.;)


Kyoni wrote:
... why is disrupting and dispelling and tactics to disable such a bad idea?...

Never said it was a bad idea. I said that you don't have to multiclass to use those tactics. I also said the build you have will be very difficult. That was right after you said, "...My main worry is that I tend to multiclass my characters into weak (sometimes nearly useless) jack-of-all-trades..." And I said that you had a MAD build (that stands for Multiple Ability Dependant if you hadn't seen it before). You need every ability to be at least decent. That means (if point buy) you're mostly stuck with 12's and a few 14's. You don't get any of the high level spells, spells with high DC's, as much use out of powerful meta magics, or high level class abilities.

You have lots of low level spells and low level class abilities. However, fights with mages tend to be like duels with hand grenades. Very short. So you won't usually have time to use lots of spells or lots of abilites.

It is simply a fact that in the pathfinder system is more difficult to excel with a character that is good at lots of things. it does not tend to reward multiclassing. Generally speaking, a level 16 class ability is much more powerful than 2 level 8 class abilities. Generally speaking, a level 6 spell is much more powerful that 2 level 3 spells. Consider that a level 16 mage can usually take on any 2 level 8 characters pretty easily. You are putting the 2 level 8 characters abilites in 1 character. So you don't even get twice as many actions.

That is just the mechanics of the system. A single class is just usually more powerful. It just almost always works better to have each character in a group have a specialty job and a secondary job. Then the group plans around each others abilities and relies on each other to do their job well.

Sometimes there is the exception of 1 or 2 level dips. For example, 1 level dip into undead sorc so your enchantments can affect undead, or 2 level of paladin for the amazing saves, 1 or 2 levels of monk for the AC and save boost, etc...

Also, there are some very specific builds that multiclass like crazy (I think I saw one with 5 classes recently). But those are to really build up 1 power such as gunfighting, not to get alittle of everything. They also concentrate on the required ability scores. If 2 caster classes they use the same casting stat. If multiple weapon classes they are both dex builds or both strength builds.

I happen to like multiclassing, but it is much more difficult in PF than it was in 3.0 or 3.5 DnD. I love the concept of the mystic theurge. However, in PF every way I've tried to build one run through some experimental situations it fares poorly. The best I was able to do is IF a large playing group where everyone else is a weapon build AND a large number of encounters in a game day (so long time between rest). Even then it really didn't do better than standard bard. You are basically doing the same thing only more so. A PC that is a divine caster, and arcane caster, a tracker, melee weapons, and missile weapons.

I will never tell you that it can't be done. But I will say it will be very difficult and I think it would be easier get the concept and tactics you described with a single class or short dip than a multiclass.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
That is just the mechanics of the system. A single class is just usually more powerful. It just almost always works better to have each character in a group have a specialty job and a secondary job. Then the group plans around each others abilities and relies on each other to do their job well.

This kinda reminds me of the failure of 4th edition... everybody pick a job and be a 1-trick-warhorse that has to be perfectly syncronized with the group :-(

The one time we tried 4th edition with my group we ended up with 3 strikers and one leader (me), nobody wanted to do the tanking or controlling part. I guess this is mainly because we first come up with a cool background and then start thinking what class would fit this. Usually only the late joiners get told: we are still missing this and we have plenty of that. But even then it's just a guideline, never mandatory. We just don't like to enforce the sacred trio of defense/offense/support.

If I had to describe her 2 jobs, it'd be:
- skills to track down mages (gathering intel, too)
- means to fight/disable mages
However due to the background I had in mind, my wish list was:
- halfling
- prays to desna
- friend of shalelu, thus good hunter (campaign requirement)
- hates necromancers
- no paladin (I don't like them)

My hin has the same AC as our barbarian right now... and I doubt our barbarian intends to do the damage soaking, he seems more intent on the damage part. Our sorcerer is still a mystery, really weird spell selection, I'm still trying to find out what he's about. Our cleric wants to master staff combat and "repairing".
Our late comer is a social rogue with a good dip into buffoonery, who decided he'll go switch-hitter since we're already 3 people who prefer melee.

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Also, there are some very specific builds that multiclass like crazy (I think I saw one with 5 classes recently). But those are to really build up 1 power such as gunfighting, not to get alittle of everything.

I was kinda hoping that there would be something like this for my idea.


Problem i discovered: disruptive needs the enemy to be threatened with an AoO, so would this only work with a melee weapon?

Shadow Lodge

Well, lets look at it this way:

Skills= Inquisitor and Bard each get 6+ skill points so both would be a good pick in this department.

Tracking= Inquisitor gets it at lvl 2 while the Ranger gets it at lvl 1. If your really wanting to get tracking then go Arcane Duelist (which is a pretty decent mage hunter) it may be a better decision to just take a lvl in ranger and be done with it.

That takes care of your jobs pretty handily.

Something to keep in mind with Star Knives (I've looked into them myself) the weapon returning property doesn't return the weapon until just before your next turn so you'd be making only 1 attack with it and then if you do move the weapon returns to the square you were in not the square you end up in.

I would recommend a bow, crossbow or gun over this option. With any of these options you get enhanced range and damage.

Something else to consider when RPing is that you can lvl dip without having to RP the class. For instance, you could take 2 lvl dip in Paladin without having to act like a Paladin. You would only need to maintain the LG aspect to maintain the class powers. Not a huge deal with the character it seems.

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