I'm entirely with you guys on this, by the way. I just don't see where any new rules are needed. I do this. I give out an insanely low amount of treasure compared to what should be handed out to maintain WBL. I read an article ages ago (I believe in Dungeon) about running a noir campaign, and the conclusion as I remember was "low-wealth equals a harder, grittier campaign."
I just adjust encounters and such accordingly. Such a setting makes some creatures very very difficult. Fine! They're just difficult creatures.
It's not as if the CRs and encounters are so balance that you can just blindly mix and match and expect balance - you have to balance threats and encounters for your specific group of players and characters or it just won't be any fun.
As an aside, a combination of "we're not sure why new rules are needed" and "Golarion is our standard for a campaign setting" will probably result in never seeing official support for low-wealth campaigns; they write rules, but "low-wealth" isn't a rule, it's a way of running a campaign and all the campaign-specific stuff they put out is oriented towards Golarion.
What I want is basically the opposite of epic rules. I want to be able to:
> Remove reliance on expensive gear. Losing your main weapon and armor can possible cripple your character indefinitely due to the unrecoverable funds that represents. You're unable to get quality replacement gear because you lost the old stuff.
> Be able to take a slider and use it to tone down or completely remove magic.
> Draw out leveling in terms of power, but not have long periods of stagnation where nothing progresses.
From the points you make, what you are asking for is actually not "the opposite of epic rules". At least not from what I can see.
In fact, I'd prefer to see some sort of easily mutable sliding scale system similar to what you are asking for as it would probably make higher level play easier as WBL numbers tend get extremely crazy post 20th if you model them on <20 advancement %'s.
-TimD
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Basically my idea of a great long term campaign with slow progression. Fun stuff.
A +1 weapon becomes a true treasure, and even has an awe inspiring name. Even then you could have PC literally running errand and currying favor just to get a few cold iron weapons or a single adamant one.
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Deep in the wilderness a 6th level fighter gets his Splint Mail dusted by a rust monster. Taking a few days of work at a long term base camp he rigs up a semi functional set by scavenging a piece meal set of light and medium armor taken from fallen foes. Finally those Ultimate Combat piece meal armor rules can really see some lovely use.
How do you have low wealth without having less than WBL magic items?
That was why I was using the term "low wealth" .. it's too easy to misconstrue "low magic" as meaning something different.
I played a game where we all had several Artifacts by the end- and it was plenty gritty. Low magic does not mean “more gritty”.
There are scads of low magic game systems out there- Iron Heroes for one. Why try to change PF or D&D into something it was never supposed to be?
So, using NPC classes?
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That was why I was using the term "low wealth" .. it's too easy to misconstrue "low magic" as meaning something different.
Essentially, you make the Gear not so important, in addition to low wealth, and limited access to spellcasting.
How do you have low wealth without having less than WBL magic items?
Some sort of mechanic with inherent bonuses, or points you can move around, generally speaking, like the houserule mentioned a few posts up. So you can give them gear at level 1, never give them more gear, and the encounters don't become impossibly difficult.
There are a few houserules that do something similar on these forums, but I'd like something official and well fleshed out.
There is no cookbook. There can't be. It's not like baking cookies. The requirements to make a campaign work are as varied as the players and PCs.
You just have to be willing to experiment and adjust until you find the sweet spot. No different than a standard campaign, however - the experience and skill of the GM is far more important than WBL tables and CR charts.
Exactly.
Nothing wrong with that (in fact, it's something that makes magic items feel special), but if that's the way your table runs, you have to realize that "at CR" encounters are actually "above CR" because the party doesn't have gear that they might otherwise be expected to have.
Again, I like that concept (in fact, that's how I typically run my campaigns), but I have to dial down the difficulty of encounters a little as a result.
Sounds like you should play PF but run converted old school dnd adventures. Along with actually making characters itemize their character sheets with spell components. Give out almost no items and simply convert "need +1 to hit" to DR/x or give more mundane ways of beating DR. Running Holy Water on your weapons grant bonuses to fighting undead/incorporeal.
Also it seems to me the style of adventure and the nature of the plot are far more what you are talking about than an actual adjustment to the rules.
Back when 3.0 came out they went on and on how it was a return to sword and sorcery as opposed to high fantasy (epitomized by 2E Forgotten Realms). I think they the designers wanted this more than the fan base who quickly wanted Forgotten Realms back. Granted there are many who have always preferred sword and sorcery to high fantasy I just think that the new shiny thing always attracts hence the power kreep.
I really get what you are going for. I just think a careful protection of game feel, themes, and the right blend of encouters can deal with this easily without the need for a new rules set.
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Sounds like you should play PF but run converted old school dnd adventures. Along with actually making characters itemize their character sheets with spell components. Give out almost no items and simply convert "need +1 to hit" to DR/x or give more mundane ways of beating DR. Running Holy Water on your weapons grant bonuses to fighting undead/incorporeal.
Also it seems to me the style of adventure and the nature of the plot are far more what you are talking about than an actual adjustment to the rules.
I really get what you are going for. I just think a careful protection of game feel, themes, and the right blend of encouters can deal with this easily without the need for a new rules set.
Yeah, There's the playstyle. But the rules part comes from me wanting to be able to use the monsters out of the book, and not be completely lost when it comes to determining what CR a given monster should be in a no-magic-items game.
I'll have to check out the "Grittier" by Eridanus Press pdf though. Maybe it will provide something useful.
I kindof want it to play a bit more like Conan and Iron Heroes, while still letting me use the Pathfinder stuff for the characters (just not the gear).
I was thinking a lot about this and started this thread. Some good stuff here and there.