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1. cavalier1 (mount + full-plate proficiency)
2. monk[sohei] (flurry in armor)
...so, as early as 2nd-level, I'm flurrying in full-plate with a temple-sword? At 10th, I'm a sohei6/cava4 with Horse Master for a full animal companion, and own Gloves of Dueling to juice the heck out of probably two-dozen Weapon Training-applicable weapons.
(Counting down the seconds for AM FLURRY IN FULL-PLATE.)
You could have done that without the Sohei archetype.
In fact at any point of time you could flurry in armor in pathfinder.
Besides one extra attack on a full attack does not broken make. You need at least 8 levels of monk before flurry really picks up (and even then it's the use of Ki to get another extra attack).
As you have currently shown you can't even flurry on a charge so its pretty easy.
GOEMON!!!
/barf
In fact at any point of time you could flurry in armor in pathfinder.
Er...
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Anyway, the last time this came up the writer of the Sohei said you weren't intended to be able to flurry in armor. It isn't quite errata, but it is good enough to have a strong argument against anyone who tries to abuse this.
Besides, if Ultimate Combat starts getting errata, there are plenty of weapons and feats that are way more troublesome than this. Nobody else is allowed to get their pet problem addressed until I find out how rope darts work!
Well what do you know -- I was wrong, Congrats Mort -- thanks for pointing it out for me.
1. cavalier1 (mount + full-plate proficiency)
2. monk[sohei] (flurry in armor)...so, as early as 2nd-level, I'm flurrying in full-plate with a temple-sword? At 10th, I'm a sohei6/cava4 with Horse Master for a full animal companion, and own Gloves of Dueling to juice the heck out of probably two-dozen Weapon Training-applicable weapons.
(Counting down the seconds for AM FLURRY IN FULL-PLATE.)
How is this broken? <--Serious question
PS:I am going to feel silly if the answer is obvious.
How is this broken? <--Serious question
PS:I am going to feel silly if the answer is obvious.
It makes your defense cheap and easy. You can use full plate and a heavy shield, then flurry with your (superior to monk) weapon. That means no particular need for investment in Dexterity or Wisdom, cutting the MAD out of the Monk and letting you push Strength and Constitution. Basically, all the benefits of a normal martial and a monk rolled into one. Oh, and you get a full level mount that you can grant a few abilities to as a bonus.
Maybe not the most broken character out their right now, but still very strong.
Now compare it to a fighter or barbarian. Is it more powerful?
How is this broken? <--Serious question
PS:I am going to feel silly if the answer is obvious.
It makes your defense cheap and easy. You can use full plate and a heavy shield, then flurry with your (superior to monk) weapon. That means no particular need for investment in Dexterity or Wisdom, cutting the MAD out of the Monk and letting you push Strength and Constitution. Basically, all the benefits of a normal martial and a monk rolled into one. Oh, and you get a full level mount that you can grant a few abilities to as a bonus.
Maybe not the most broken character out their right now, but still very strong.
I don't see that as broken. It is strong though.
What does it say that I made it to the very end of reading the first post before I noticed the "l" in flurry?
I thought this was about a furry in full plate.
/me shudders.
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I just looked on the PRD, and I don't see anywhere where it says that the Sohei can flurry while wearing armor.
Just because you have light armor proficiency does not mean that you may flurry while wearing it.
Does it say somewhere that you may flurry while wearing armor?
It is not. The armoured monk is not broken in any way. It's just less horrible than the unarmoured monk, and that upsets people.
Personally I don't think the dip is worth it considering how many attacks zen archers or sohei's can get.
Wondering the same as Aeshuura. What makes ya think that Shohei can flurry in Armor? It can't be the light proficiency, since you can get it as a feat anyway.
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The armor proficiency text supercedes the vanilla monk's one, including the part about the monk not supposed to flurry while armored. The "armored monk can't flurry" isn't anymore true for a sohei. The writer just didn't think about mentioning it clearly, by the way excluding armors higher than light, and forgetting about mentioning the fact that the sohei flurrying with a bow should have to follow the same limitations than a zen archer.
I just looked on the PRD, and I don't see anywhere where it says that the Sohei can flurry while wearing armor.
Just because you have light armor proficiency does not mean that you may flurry while wearing it.
Does it say somewhere that you may flurry while wearing armor?
That was covered in another thread. I will try to find the link.
I don't remember what the consensus was but the thread is here.
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It is not. The armoured monk is not broken in any way. It's just less horrible than the unarmoured monk, and that upsets people.People who don't know how to build monks ("Egad! It's more complicated than 20STR, 7CHA!") build crappy monks; people who know what they're doing build monks that shred the cheddar -- but we can save extended dissertations on the alleged deficiencies of monks for one of the many threads which already exist for that subject.
It makes your defense cheap and easy. You can use full plate and a heavy shield, then flurry with your (superior to monk) weapon. That means no particular need for investment in Dexterity or Wisdom, cutting the MAD out of the Monk and letting you push Strength and Constitution.
Bingo. Help yerself to a see-gar out of me box.
"I'm going to make eleven Ki-Medusa attacks with my Gloves of Dueling-juiced Keen falcata while Power Attacking in my +5 full-plate of speed -- yeehaw! And then my buffed-to-the-9s critter will take its turn!"
-- If there were separate monk disciplines which let you 1) wear armor, 2) Flurry with better grades of weapons, 3) get better Ki-buffing, 4) get Weapon Training, or 5) be Mounted Guy -- each would be a worthy individual archetype. But Sohei has 'em all! ....it's as if the intent were to jam as much cheese as possible into one class, and wait to see how long it'd take n percentage of players' collective jaws to slowly descend to the table.
Only after you take at least 3 fighter levels. The monk (even the Sohei) won't be able to do that without those 3 fighter levels first (with the falcata specifically).
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Don't forget Crusader's Flurry feat...letting you flurry with a 2H weapon...if you follow the right god...
I really just want a monk that can use a short sword/light shield, like real life Shaolin Monks, without losing their bonuses....
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I don't remember what the consensus was but the thread is here.
I take that to be the same as the answer I got about the Archaeologist's Luck ability. That is, in a non-PFS campaign, the developer would let it slide in light armor. Since that is the intent, it makes sense that it would be a GM's call to disallow it for heavier armors, since it does not fit the "flavor" of the class ability.
That is how I would play it.
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Don't forget Crusader's Flurry feat...letting you flurry with a 2H weapon...if you follow the right god...
I really just want a monk that can use a short sword/light shield, like real life Shaolin Monks, without losing their bonuses....
Wielding a 2HW has no impact on flurry, you only deal your strength modifier, not 1/1-2 times your Str modifier.
If you can show me how this outdamages a weaponmaster fighter or a pouncing barbarian, I'll say it's overpowered. If it's about a few extra points of AC, I'll point you to the wand of mage armour plus a middling wisdom score.
Well, assuming all else is equal, a level 10 Weaponmaster would have an attack routine of +12/+7 and +4 damage (assuming specialization) with his favored weapon. The Monk 6 / Cavalier 4 can do a +9/+9/+4 with +1 damage, with the option of using a ki point for +9/+9/+9/+4.
If we assume an average weapon damage of X, with the Weaponmaster's attack as a baseline, we see he deals 1.75(X+4) damage. The Monk would deal 2.3(X+1) damage. Solve for X, and you will find that, so long as your average damage per hit is greater than 8.55, the Monk is outdamaging the Weaponmaster. He also benefits more from buffs and, as mentioned, can burn one of his (sadly, few) ki to really crank up the pain. Or he can go with archery and do a ridiculous RapidManyFlurryShot. Oh, and he has a Challenge he can fire off for an extra bonus on all those attacks.
So basically, a bit better normally, substantially better when using resources. I'm not going to enter into whether or not it is broken (especially against Ragelancepounce and the like), but it is definitely a large step up in power from a baseline character.
I would compare to the Barbarian, but it isn't really comparable to a Pouncing Barbarian until level 14, when he can pick up Mounted Skirmisher. Plus I don't really want to redo everything for that scenario. But you get the idea, I hope.
Wielding a 2HW has no impact on flurry, you only deal your strength modifier, not 1/1-2 times your Str modifier.
A lot of people argue you would still get the extra two-handed damage from Power Attack. While I don't like this interpretation, and would house rule it away in a heartbeat if it came up, there is nothing I can find to prove it wrong.
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If you can show me how this outdamages a weaponmaster fighter....
I reject your implicit premise that "cheese" is solely confined to examinations of DPR under ideal circumstances (i.e., the encounter lets you use your favorite weapon to maximum extent while never having to make a saving-throw or skill-check or defend against a maneuver or touch-attack).
The build itself will not be that great and it doesn't make much sense to play. So if you have players rolling that up I wouldn't probably play with them.
If you can show me how this outdamages a weaponmaster fighter....I reject your implicit premise that "cheese" is solely confined to examinations of DPR under ideal circumstances (i.e., the encounter lets you use your favorite weapon to maximum extent while never having to make a saving-throw or skill-check or defend against a maneuver or touch-attack).
So we should use a worse case scenario? In which case you don't get to attack with the weapon at all because it is inappropriate for the challenge at hand (such as using a melee weapon without having a means to fly against a flying ranged opponent).
Also I would point out again that the Sohei only gets weapon training with a specific subset of weapons -- which doesn't include the falcata.
If you want to flurry with another weapon you'll need a minimum of 3 levels of fighter and 6 levels of Sohei to flurry with it.
Wielding a 2HW has no impact on flurry, you only deal your strength modifier, not 1/1-2 times your Str modifier.Don't forget Crusader's Flurry feat...letting you flurry with a 2H weapon...if you follow the right god...
I really just want a monk that can use a short sword/light shield, like real life Shaolin Monks, without losing their bonuses....
Sorry, 2 handed reach weapon, such as a glaive.
Flurry with a Scizore. Technically, even if it is a glove-type weapon, there are no rules disallowing it from becoming a two handed 2d8 large weapon. XD
You mean like several weapons from UC such as the meteor hammer and double kama? These only require a feat not levels in a divine casting class.
Why do you need to take a class other than monk? There are armor proficiency and weapon proficiency feats. Sure, they cut into your other feat options but I'm sure there is a way to make it work.
For Crusaders Flurry you need channel energy.
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Also I would point out again that the Sohei only gets weapon training with a specific subset of weapons -- which doesn't include the falcata.
Sohei is an amplifier.
I.e., what's better: a fight6/sohei10, or a fight16?
If the F/S picks heavy blades, he can Flurry (+2attacks) with every heavy blade + Medusa + Ki. The F16, even if he has Greater TWF, is still be behind the monk multiclass in number of attacks despite his feat investments; and while he has a slightly higher attack bonus with his Weapon Training groups, can Flurry with none of them.
If you give the monk flurry-in-armor, then there's essentially no reason to play a straight fighter.
Still can't see how your using Medusa's with a heavy blade there Mike.
However this isn't the Cavalier/Monk you were going on about earlier either, and has its own set of problems to go with it.
As for no reason to play a fighter -- mobile fighter archetype.
Sure you can full attack in a mean fashion -- but you still can't move and do it, the mobile fighter archetype can and doesn't get weapon training so won't have as much synergy with the Sohei.
Still can't see how your using Medusa's with a heavy blade there Mike.
He could if he had a Ki weapon and took stunning fist at some point.
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Still can't see how your using Medusa's with a heavy blade there Mike.
OK; he can't Medusa with the falcata, but they're freebies so long as one other of his Flurry attacks is an unarmed strike.
(As a Sohei, I probably wouldn't take Medusa's Wrath due to unarmed-strikes being the one thing we're not particularly good in.)
How does Ki weapon affect
Medusa's Wrath
You can take advantage of your opponent's confusion, delivering multiple blows.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon's Fist, Scorpion Style, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Ki Focus
Aura Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Price +1 bonus.
Description
This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon.
The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder's ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks. These attacks include the monk's ki strike, quivering palm, and the Stunning Fist feat (including any condition that the monk can apply using this feat).
Meduasa's is not a Ki special attack its simply extra attacks in fact someone else could have dazed the foe and you be out of KI and still get the bonus. Heck even a non monk can do it if they want so unless its come up else where I would say no getting two more weapon attacks with it.
Now if he wants to make three unarmed as part of that flurry + Medusa's sure but thats gonna hurt more than help.
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Just gonna keep saying "not broken, not broken, not broken".
You know what's broken? A master summoner, or a beastmorph vivisectionist Alchemist who makes use of greater invisibility and pounce.
A flurry in full plate isn't broken. Having an animal companion with four levels of an animal companion class and a feat isn't broken. Doing stupid damage on a full attack and suboptimal damage when the full attack isn't available is not broken.
Except the weapon master is getting +1.5Y bonus from strength while the monk is only getting +Y.
Good point. After adjusting it is 2.625Y vs 2.3Y, or a difference of 0.325 times Strength bonus. Making the break even point 8.55 + 0.59 times your Strength modifier. Even with an absurd Strength modifier, you are going to be dealing more damage than that fairly early. Plus the option of ki, and challenge, and buffs, and a couple more levels for an extra attack, etc.
These attacks include the monk's ki strike, quivering palm, and the Stunning Fist feat (including any condition that the monk can apply using this feat).
A really... slanted(?) reading of that would suggest that the extra attacks are a condition that was applied through the use of stunning fist.
Of course this would require taking stunning fist as a feat too, and a GM willing to go along with such craziness.
Personally I think the question can be reversed from, "why would anyone take a fighter to level 20" to "Why would anyone take a Sohei to level twenty when they can take 3 levels of fighter (weapon master archetype)?"
Yeah they work well together -- for a specific type of character -- but that one character isn't going to be the be all and end all of pathfinder either.
The conditions are those that a monk can cause when he uses stunning fist besides stunned. Even then using Medusa's strike is not a condition applied through stunning fist unless your gonna track medusa's attacks based on the monk using stunning for setting it up or the wizard dazing him.
Like I said with a really slanted reading and a GM willing to go along with such craziness...
I never stated it was a correct or even sane position, only a possible one.
Ah forgive me then
