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Ultimate Magic: Terrible Remorse


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Seriously who wasn't thinking when "Terrible Remorse" was put into place. A level 6 bard can take out a level 20 character? It is stronger than Power Word Stun". Is there errata on this? We apparently had a TPK today, by a plethora of NPC's loaded with this spell.

I am an elven wizard who made his save and still died. How is this even possible?

Holy Sheets!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

FAQ


It's still a horrible mess of a spell. An automatic Daze for one round, no matter if you save or not.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

That's true. Errata didn't fix that.


? But it is not an auto-daze...
Nothing happens at all until your turn.
If you fail your save you get to still act normally (aside from taking a little damage, but if you are a low-Str character it will be insignificant)
It only sucks if you MAKE your save, and then it only lasts one round.
Not overpowered for a 4th level spell IMO (look at Hold Person)

You can always choose to automatically fail a saving throw, so if you have Spellcraft to identify that they are casting Terrible Remorse, just do that.


Interzone wrote:

? But it is not an auto-daze...

Nothing happens at all until your turn.
If you fail your save you get to still act normally (aside from taking a little damage, but if you are a low-Str character it will be insignificant)
It only sucks if you MAKE your save, and then it only lasts one round.
Not overpowered for a 4th level spell IMO (look at Hold Person)

You can always choose to automatically fail a saving throw, so if you have Spellcraft to identify that they are casting Terrible Remorse, just do that.

Uh, it's the other way around. Re-read the spell and the errata.

Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

Moved this thread to Rules Questions.


magnuskn wrote:
Interzone wrote:

? But it is not an auto-daze...

Nothing happens at all until your turn.
If you fail your save you get to still act normally (aside from taking a little damage, but if you are a low-Str character it will be insignificant)
It only sucks if you MAKE your save, and then it only lasts one round.
Not overpowered for a 4th level spell IMO (look at Hold Person)

You can always choose to automatically fail a saving throw, so if you have Spellcraft to identify that they are casting Terrible Remorse, just do that.

Uh, it's the other way around. Re-read the spell and the errata.

Uh, no it isn't. Read it for yourself :P

Terrible Remorse: If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse (page 243), do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.

If you MAKE the save, you are frozen with sorrow, and can't act, only for one round.
If you FAIL the save, you take damage, and the spell keeps going, but you are not otherwise impeded (i.e. you can still act)
And like I said, the damage is so insignificant (unless you are strong) that it is generally far worse to MAKE your save, as then you actually lose your actions for the round.
I don't kow how much clearer it could be.


Terrible Remorse wrote:
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.

Why would you choose to auto fail? Then for next rnds/level your going to beat yourself up and lose your actions to hurting yourself.


Slacker2010 wrote:
Terrible Remorse wrote:
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.

Why would you choose to auto fail? Then for next rnds/level your going to beat yourself up and lose your actions to hurting yourself.

What? Did you not read the clarification? You dont lose your action on a failed save, you just deal damage to yourself and act normally.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

It seems like the way you guys are reading it relies on the spell granting you a free action to attack yourself- then having both your move and standard action to do whatever you want. I may be wrong, but I don't think that was the intent. I would imagine your standard is tied up in attacking yourself (like confusion) though you maintain control of the rest of your action sequence.


Its worded differently than confusion.
From the way the errata is worded, and from what I have read about it elsewhere on the boards, doing damage to yourself as a result of this spell does not take an action.
If I am wrong, and it DOES, then yes it is definitely overpowered and is going to get an auto-include on every characters spell list who can cast it.... But I am pretty sure that is not the way it works.

Andoran

Yes, the official "clarification" makes the damage you do to yourself a no-action.

This was to change it from a Save-or-Lose/Save-and-still-Lose into something at least slightly reasonable.


Interzone wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Interzone wrote:

? But it is not an auto-daze...

Nothing happens at all until your turn.
If you fail your save you get to still act normally (aside from taking a little damage, but if you are a low-Str character it will be insignificant)
It only sucks if you MAKE your save, and then it only lasts one round.
Not overpowered for a 4th level spell IMO (look at Hold Person)

You can always choose to automatically fail a saving throw, so if you have Spellcraft to identify that they are casting Terrible Remorse, just do that.

Uh, it's the other way around. Re-read the spell and the errata.

Uh, no it isn't. Read it for yourself :P

Terrible Remorse: If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse (page 243), do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.

If you MAKE the save, you are frozen with sorrow, and can't act, only for one round.
If you FAIL the save, you take damage, and the spell keeps going, but you are not otherwise impeded (i.e. you can still act)
And like I said, the damage is so insignificant (unless you are strong) that it is generally far worse to MAKE your save, as then you actually lose your actions for the round.
I don't kow how much clearer it could be.

Yeah, fail on my part. Sorry for being a smart-ass. And failing at it. ^^


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Feral wrote:

Yes, the official "clarification" makes the damage you do to yourself a no-action.

This was to change it from a Save-or-Lose/Save-and-still-Lose into something at least slightly reasonable.

And about the only spell where making your saving throw could actually be worse than failing it. :p


Feral wrote:

Yes, the official "clarification" makes the damage you do to yourself a no-action.

This was to change it from a Save-or-Lose/Save-and-still-Lose into something at least slightly reasonable.

Can you point me to this Clarification?


Ok, the spell is a bad one to deal with, and if it's being spammed by multiple characters things get really ugly. But even with the downside of losing your action if you make your saving throw the spell ends. This leaves roughly an entire turn for the rest of your party to lay waste to the perpetrator of the spell.


Slacker2010 wrote:


Can you point me to this Clarification?

From the FAQ, which is linked in the second post of the thread;

"Terrible Remorse: If I make my saving throw against terrible remorse (page 243), do I become paralyzed for the duration of the spell?
No. The spell is a bit unclear here. When you are targeted by terrible remorse you do not make a saving throw until your turn. On your turn, you must make a Will saving throw. If you make the saving throw, you are frozen with sorrow and can take no actions, but this causes the spell to end. If you fail the saving throw, you deal damage to yourself, but can otherwise act normally.

Update: Page 243, in the description of the terrible remorse spell, change the final sentence to read as follows.

If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends."


I don't think the Bolded sentence is clear. If something forces you to do something then tells you that you can act normally, The action your forced to do still takes up your action. I read this as you deal damage to yourself (using the appropriate action) then you can use whats left of your turn to do whatever (move, free, and swift actions). Granted this is my understanding. Otherwise its granting you an extra action.


Slacker2010 wrote:
Otherwise its granting you an extra action.

There is no action associated with dealing or suffering damage.

Normally, those thing go along with other actions (attack actions, spellcasting actions), but they do not themselves require an action to occur.

The bolded section is very clear; you deal damage to yourself and act normally, as opposed to losing any of your actions as a successful save would have caused. The bolded part is implied, and does not need to be explicit.


Terrible Remorse wrote:
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.

I Disagree, as the spell doesn't harm you but causes you to harm yourself. So unless your doing that with a free action, or it grants you the ability to harm yourself with a free action. I believe that you would need to use your standard action to do this. The 2nd part thats bolded even suggest how you are harming yourself. Why would this be a Free action? Do you have any supporting documentation that shows you can make free attacks on yourself. If so then I could go with that.

While this might not be the Developers Intent, its the way I read it.


Slacker2010 wrote:
I don't think the Bolded sentence is clear. If something forces you to do something then tells you that you can act normally, The action your forced to do still takes up your action. I read this as you deal damage to yourself (using the appropriate action) then you can use whats left of your turn to do whatever (move, free, and swift actions). Granted this is my understanding. Otherwise its granting you an extra action.

While it doesn't make much sense, on a successful save this spell has the power of a 4th level spell. On a failed save. it's more in line with a 1st level spell.


Hmm. I feel like this spell might work better if the effect was something like this:

Fail a save: feel overwhelming remorse, hit yourself with sticks (this takes up your standard action for the round, prevents full round actions, etc)
Pass a save: fight back against feeling of remorse, take a -2 atk, dam, saves, skill/ability checks for 1 round, spell ends

That makes it a pretty nasty save or suck effect, sort of a boosted Hold Person, trading paralysis for damage. Still might prefer paralysis, mind ... but at least you don't get a worse effect for PASSING your save. And it still has an effect either way.

Thoughts?


Quantum Steve wrote:
While it doesn't make much sense, on a successful save this spell has the power of a 4th level spell. On a failed save. it's more in line with a 1st level spell.

If you read it as on a failed save you can still harm yourself as a free action then yes, its weak. But the way I believe (I might not be right) it works, its in line with a fourth level spell. Lets look at a Heighten hold person as a fourth level spell. These would be very close to being in line.

On a failed save the HHP (Heighten Hold Person) would complete immobilize you, while the TR (Terrible Remorse) would take away your standard action and cause harm to you but still gives you the swift, move and free actions to defend yourself or effect the course of the battle.

On a Successful save the HHP has no effect. But this was a second level spell for some. The TR you lose one turn then your off the hook. I think its a very good spell but still balanced.

EDIT: I agree CaptianJandor, its worded poorly, but I think you have what the developers intended. In all fairness though, we might me wrong. Be nice for official ruling on it.


CaptainJandor wrote:

Hmm. I feel like this spell might work better if the effect was something like this:

Fail a save: feel overwhelming remorse, hit yourself with sticks (this takes up your standard action for the round, prevents full round actions, etc)
Pass a save: fight back against feeling of remorse, take a -2 atk, dam, saves, skill/ability checks for 1 round, spell ends

That makes it a pretty nasty save or suck effect, sort of a boosted Hold Person, trading paralysis for damage. Still might prefer paralysis, mind ... but at least you don't get a worse effect for PASSING your save. And it still has an effect either way.

Thoughts?

That's pretty good for a 2nd lvl spell. Not as good as Lesser Confusion on a failed save, but has good duration. More or less Sickened on a successful save. Cause Fear Shakens on a successful save, which stacks with fear effects, but has a HD cap. Overall, a potent 2nd level spell. Or a lackluster 3rd lvl spell.


I think that the Failed save he wants to add on that its 1rnd/level duration.


Slacker2010 wrote:
EDIT: I agree CaptianJandor, its worded poorly, but I think you have what the developers intended. In all fairness though, we might me wrong. Be nice for official ruling on it.

Thanks!

Slacker2010 wrote:
I think that the Failed save he wants to add on that its 1rnd/level duration.

And yes, that's correct. When you get hit with the spell, you must save every round until you pass, the duration ends, you die, or whatever.

Also, if it applies a Shaken effect on a successful save, you need to add [fear] to the spell descriptors, which will increase the number of creatures immune to it. That's why I didn't go with shaken (just the same penalties).

For a fourth level spell, would changing the target from 1 living creature to 1 living creature/2 or 3 levels bump it up a bit? It's competing with things like Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Fear, etc.


CaptainJandor wrote:
For a fourth level spell, would changing the target from 1 living creature to 1 living creature/2 or 3 levels bump it up a bit? It's competing with things like Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Fear, etc.

It already is a win/win spell ( something which other, better balanced, spells are not ), it certainly doesn't need upgrading.


magnuskn wrote:
CaptainJandor wrote:
For a fourth level spell, would changing the target from 1 living creature to 1 living creature/2 or 3 levels bump it up a bit? It's competing with things like Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Fear, etc.
It already is a win/win spell ( something which other, better balanced, spells are not ), it certainly doesn't need upgrading.

Let's just say that Terrible Remorse does eat your standard action on a failed save. It's still not as good as Confusion.

Confusion can target several foes and, on a failed save, has a 75% chance of making them do bad stuff. If they get attacked, say by a confused ally, it has a 100% chance of locking the two in combat for the duration of the spell.

Against a single foe, Terrible Remorse would likely be better except, if the foe has Spellcraft, he can intentionally fail the save, turning a 4th level spell into something you could accomplish with a 1st level spell (crappy damage).

It's actually a consolation damage/win spell, which is just plain backwards compared to other better balanced spells.

And for the record, a no save daze for a round is pretty in line with other 4th level spells.


Quantum Steve wrote:

Let's just say that Terrible Remorse does eat your standard action on a failed save. It's still not as good as Confusion.

Confusion can target several foes and, on a failed save, has a 75% chance of making them do bad stuff. If they get attacked, say by a confused ally, it has a 100% chance of locking the two in combat for the duration of the spell.

Against a single foe, Terrible Remorse would likely be better except, if the foe has Spellcraft, he can intentionally fail the save, turning a 4th level spell into something you could accomplish with a 1st level spell (crappy damage).

It's actually a consolation damage/win spell, which is just plain backwards compared to other better balanced spells.

And for the record, a no save daze for a round is pretty in line with other 4th level spells.

No, it's really not. If the interpretation turns out to be right that a failed save eats up your action, it is even worse than I thought. There should never be a spell which functions as an automatic lockdown, even if you make your save.

Win/win spells are bad for the game. Since the economy of actions already is hugely stacked against the opponents ( if we come from a party vs. one/few bad guy/s standpoint ), adding spells which allow for the automatic lockdown of the target are bad design. Even save-less spells like Maze only take the target out of the fight.


The other way to fix it would be to make an initial save to negate it entirely. If you fail that save, then you can have the win/win condition on all subsequent saves, because they've already "lost" in the first place. That would make the spell effectively "Once you fail your save, you either take damage every turn, or make another save and lose a turn to stop taking damage".


magnuskn wrote:

There should never be a spell which functions as an automatic lockdown, even if you make your save.

Have you seen Litany of Eloquence? Its no-save Fascinate for a round, as a swift-action.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Litany of eloquence certainly causes issues in our games. It's complicated by the fact we have BOTH a paladin and an inquisitor in the group. We have found we can lock down a main baddy indefinately (effecctively) while still acting out all our actions. Interestingly the wording of fascination woudl imply the spell rarely works - threats allow a save, direct threats end the effect. Should the affected ?creature get a save if you use in combat - after all the PC's running about attacking his allies must be threatening, surely? So shoudl he get a save then - in which case he could act in his turn. Or woud lyou have to attack him directly to void the effect?


As the Great Old Cat above writes, the fascinate effect from LoE would probably get broken a lot during combat. It might still be useful for keeping a BBEG tied up for a few rounds while the party buffs up and maybe takes out a few mooks though.

I think that maybe the complaints about Terrible Remorse finally reached the level where Paizo rewrote the spell. It looks like if you make your save now you're just staggered. This prevents the spell from being spammed to freeze an enemy. Unfortunately, anybody who is staggered is still subject to a no save sleep effect from the Repose domain's Gentle Rest power, but maybe they'll change that one say too (maybe by making the sleep effect only work on creatures which are staggered due to being at 0hp).

Anyhow, here's the new text:
TERRIBLE REMORSE
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 3, cleric 4, inquisitor 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target 1 living creature
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is staggered for 1 round and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.

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