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Advice on Ninjas and NOT appearing like a fanboy


Advice

51 to 86 of 86 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
It would be wierd, but how about a Kitsune Rogue with a 2 level dip in Paladin? Charisma-based, sneak attack, and talents. (since rogues and ninjas can get each others talents)

Ninja and Paladin don't do well together. Poison Use and the Paladin's code are quite incompatible.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
It would be wierd, but how about a Kitsune Rogue with a 2 level dip in Paladin? Charisma-based, sneak attack, and talents. (since rogues and ninjas can get each others talents)
Ninja and Paladin don't do well together. Poison Use and the Paladin's code are quite incompatible.

Depends on the Paladin code. Coating your weapons in a soporific (INT Drain) so that you can take down people hopefully without killing them would be acceptable to quite a few Paladin codes.

If on the other hand the paladin code in question is one of the more 'honor bound' types that are based on chivalry, then yeah, poison is out.

Most of them would probably be against poisons designed to kill (CON Drain). But poison to weaken (Str drain), or make dizzy (Dex Drain), or cloud the senses (Wis drain).

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Paladin and neutral, chaotic or non-good actions dont go well, because you will loose the paladin abilities.
Monk is quite better here because you can become non-lawfull and keep it all.

Just to say, poison is kind of overrated, since its really expensive and then gets useless because most monsters and stuff have high FORT saves.

@OP: If you want to play a Kitsune, you can just integrate the ninja into that. You can be the mysterious woman and no one really knows what you are doing, having some secrets about you.

When at the end of the month the Dragon Empires Primer comes out, there should be some stuff in it for the Kitsune, especially about their Starballs. Wait for that and use it. Then you can appear more caster like.

Another idea is to give yourself out as an actor with disguise or even a bard with perform something. Use the skillpoints and the CHA focus!

Ninja in this case is just a name, besides the shuriken and bomb tricks.


Ninja works crazy well with paladin, you don't get quite the same options, but you certainly gain more options, because of the way paladin works. Poison is one of the most worthless things in the game anyway, everything has a good fort save except PCs, even my level 15 ninja almost never used poisons.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

So you want to play a lawful good ninja?

A lawful good Kitsune ninja?

Many iconic options get very difficult this way ...

but hey, atonement isnt that big a deal, right?


Not that hard to play a Ninja paladin really, think of yourself as an incredibly elite bodyguard, but you protect everyone. Like Batman only without the incredibly dumb parts..... mostly without Frank Miller's influence.

Scarab Sages

As far as mechanics goes, the Ninja class doesn't really feel like Naruto at all. And if you really want to play like an actual assassin/spy, go watch the movie Ronin and base your character off of the guys that DeNiro and Reno are playing.

**EDIT** Although I have to be honest: if your playing in a human-centric campaign a Kitsune or other easily recognizable exotic racial type is going to need to invest heavily in the disguise skill in order to work.

Sovereign Court

Do you have Netflix?

Go watch a movie Goemon. There is a ninja who passes himself of as a thief and scoundrel. Think of if Han Solo was an assassin.

Sovereign Court

I like the idea of reskinning the class as an Islamic Hashishin. Make your short sword curved and you're in like Flynn.


Wolfsnap wrote:

As far as mechanics goes, the Ninja class doesn't really feel like Naruto at all. And if you really want to play like an actual assassin/spy, go watch the movie Ronin and base your character off of the guys that DeNiro and Reno are playing.

**EDIT** Although I have to be honest: if your playing in a human-centric campaign a Kitsune or other easily recognizable exotic racial type is going to need to invest heavily in the disguise skill in order to work.

Or just use his human form a lot.


Hayato Ken wrote:
Paladin and neutral, chaotic or non-good actions dont go well, because you will loose the paladin abilities.

If your GM hates paladins, sure.

Paladins and evil actions don't go well together, Neutral actions are just peachy. Going to bed each night is a neutral action.

Your Paladin wakes up in the morning and has porridge for breakfast: neutral action.

He pays the inkeeper for services rendered: neutral action.

He defends himself and his adventuring companions when accosted by brigands: neutral action.

He eats a share of the deer the ranger downed for dinner: neutral action.

Poison is evil in 3.5. Poison doesn't have an alignment in Pathfinder, it's just another way of killing. Some people it's an evil act to kill. Some people it's neutral. If done for the right reasons it can even be good.


I ate dinner -- it's a neutral act -- OH NOES!

Quick thought -- if the paladin stinks at cooking and gives himself food poisoning does he break his oaths?

Liberty's Edge

magnuskn wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
It would be wierd, but how about a Kitsune Rogue with a 2 level dip in Paladin? Charisma-based, sneak attack, and talents. (since rogues and ninjas can get each others talents)
Ninja and Paladin don't do well together. Poison Use and the Paladin's code are quite incompatible.

I think ninja and paladin are quite acceptable combo. You just opt out of using your poison use ability. I'm going to be doing just that next level of my Carrion Crown Campaign. It offers wonderful synergies. I'd imagine the player to be like Batman, a warrior who has his own sense of honor and pursues justice. Though I will like just not use the poison use ability, mainly as I'm not a fan of poisons and they're largely useless in this campaign, I have no problem using them if doing so would allow me to take an opponent down with out killing them. My job is to bring them to the authorities, not to be their judge, jury & executioner. That, and the Paladin I play is a much more merciful type than a hard core executioner of justice.

Ultimately it comes down to the intent and application of the user. I've said this in other posts, it's not the tool (insert class feature, equipment, magical item or spell here) it is the person who uses it. If said person misuses the tool, they need to be aware of the consequences they will incur.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sure, if you opt out of Poison Use ( which every GM should allow, IMO ), there is no problem.

But the base Paladin code doesn't allow handling poisons. I quote:

"Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),"

It's pretty clear.

Liberty's Edge

Blue Star wrote:
Not that hard to play a Ninja paladin really, think of yourself as an incredibly elite bodyguard, but you protect everyone. Like Batman only without the incredibly dumb parts..... mostly without Frank Miller's influence.

Emphatically agreed. (Miller's batman was an abomination.)

Batman is a perfect analogy: he's lawful-good (and places good first over obeisance to "legitimate" authority if there is ever a conflict), follows a rigid code-of-honor, and has high charisma -- yet he knows eastern fighting techniques and weaponry, and has Stealth and sneak-attack up the wazoo. He even dresses in black, and wears a mask.

To "skin" him to fantasy, the high-tech toys are replaced with Ki pool.

Build: Paladin[Holy Tactician]3/Fighter[Unarmed]1/Monk[Flowing]2/Ninja6+


Mike Schneider wrote:
Blue Star wrote:
Not that hard to play a Ninja paladin really, think of yourself as an incredibly elite bodyguard, but you protect everyone. Like Batman only without the incredibly dumb parts..... mostly without Frank Miller's influence.

Emphatically agreed. (Miller's batman was an abomination.)

Batman is a perfect analogy: he's lawful-good (and places good first over obeisance to "legitimate" authority if there is ever a conflict), follows a rigid code-of-honor, and has high charisma -- yet he knows eastern fighting techniques and weaponry, and has Stealth and sneak-attack up the wazoo. He even dresses in black, and wears a mask.

To "skin" him to fantasy, the high-tech toys are replaced with Ki pool.

Build: Paladin[Holy Tactician]3/Fighter[Unarmed]1/Monk[Flowing]2/Ninja6+

Personally, I think the Asian Batgirl was a better paladin/ninja, her smites smart, and let her do crazy stuff that isn't normally physically possible for a person made of meat. Like kick through Bullet-resistant glass. She also is a lot harder to mess up as a character.... aside from that one time where they took her, created a physical clone of her, and then did a complete 180 on all of her skills and abilities. I stand by the evil clone concept, because One Year Later makes a lot more sense if it's an evil clone.

That said, see the thread on Batman for my opinion on Batman in Pathfinder.


I do not know enough about Naruto to steer you away from the pitfall but I would suggest making exactly what you want write nothing in the class field on the character sheet or rogue as was suggested earlier if anyone asks say you are a tiefling warrior, or assassin, or monk whatever fits your story better. Class is a function of the rules. What you do and who your character is in the world your GM creates is who he really is. I could see a teifling ninja being a great complimentary set of abilities and ideas. Combining it with the Oni in your fluff is a great idea. Write your back ground and give some explination as to where you abilities come from and play exactly what you want.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Is there any word on ninja archetypes in upcoming products? Poison use is a pain in PFS and I'd love some options for replacing it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why is poison use a pain in PFS?

Liberty's Edge

Gnomezrule wrote:
I do not know enough about Naruto to steer you away from the pitfall

.

== How to Not be Naruto ==

1) Don't use Shadowclone/MirrorImage.
2) Don't be a whiny blond kid with whiskers.
3) Be actually useful in combat before all of your friends are dead.

....that should just about cover it.


Give ninjas back trapfinding and lose the poison use
Make poison use a talent if it means something to your character...


I'm more accustomed to the kage no gunden type of ninja, appearing as anything but capable, hiding in plain sight. Even if the authorities were told you were part of a ninja clan, they wouldn't believe it.


Just so you're all familiar... the stereotype of the ninja dressed all in black is just that; a stereotype. It comes from Kabuki theater where stage hands dressed all in black with dark masks/makeup. Audiences were supposed to ignore them and focus on the actual actors in the play. Someone had the bright idea, though, to have one of these stagehands actually be a part of the play, an assassin who would "jump out of nowhere" to kill someone then fade back into the shadows. In actuality, a real ninja would be dressed just like the guy next door. Plain working clothes will blend you into obscurity far better than all black garb and a ski mask.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Hmm, I'm picturing a rogue with the major magic talent using silent image to make a guy in black pajamas running away.

"That's the assassin guys! Go get him!"

More seriously I've had a hatred for the ninja for some time now. TO play a non-ninja (i.e. a rogue)

Don't rely on the 'ninja' weapons. You might be able to pass yourself off as a kensai(magus archtype) using one of them. (mix with alchemical items for 'spells'.

Don't dress the part.

Make a cover story and stick with it. "I'm a Bushi, my family was exiled/disgraced/sold on eBay so I never completed my warrior training." Believe it. Essentially your character is role playing another character. Leave it vauge enough to explain your skills as 'real life' training. ("How'd you pick that lock?" "In my travels, being able to open a locked cabinet to get the food is a good skill to have.")

Build on that cover story. Would you believe Julia Childe was a spy? Or Dr. Ruth was a sniper? Exactly. Being a master chef (not Chief) or painter or poet might open more doors than stealth.

One of my favourite Andromeda quotes:
Becca: Wow. Quite a renaissance man, Tyr. Gourmet chef, mercenary killer...
Tyr: I took it up because a former employer of mine appreciated fine dining. When he refused to pay me for one of my jobs, I prepared him a Tirimisu laced with Strychnine. As I recall, he quite enjoyed it...for precisely twelve seconds.

That should be pretty non-Naruto :-)


Kazarath wrote:

I've been reading through the core books recently because I still have to make a new character (our gaming group still hasn't reconvened due to the holidays), and I'm torn. I was going to go with monk, but reading (and developing a serious headache from) this thread, I've kind of been soured on the idea. And determining not to play a caster (do to another semi-related headache nightmare) I started looking for non-caster classes that already haven't been filled in my group.

Here's where I ran into my current problem. I read through the ninja's class features, and I love them, but I hate ninjas. This hatred mostly stems from the popularization of Naruto. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that I'm dead set on playing a Kitsune (or possibly an Oni descended tiefling)

So tell me, is their anyway I could play a kitsune ninja without other people viewing me as a Naruto fanboy?

ninjas in naruto are not ninjas, they are sorcerers/demigods.

oni-blooded teifling looks quite fun, i must say. as for the ninja class: play it as an actual ninja, not the popularized (wear all black and jump from roof to roof) version. wear common understated clothes, be friendly, make a cover role for when you're in town and for when you're "on the job". have skill points in various professions and side-skills--you've been trained to infiltrate any environment at any time to get closer to your target. you could be the new gardener, a fresh recruit to the city watch or house guard, a stableboy, a salesman of propane and propane accessories. first and foremost, you are NOT a ninja. you are a highly trained and skilled professional who is very good at killing people.

if you're allowed to keep your sheet secret from the other players, you could pretend to be a monk or rogue with little to no difficulty (provided you don't openly go "i'm using my ninja class feature X to do Y").

you're simply an assassin with a more supernatural toolkit. "ninja" is just a name.


There's also the option of just being whatever a "Rogue" is supposed to be that happens to have some supernatural abilities (which shouldn't be THAT odd in a system as magic dependent as this).


Blue Star wrote:

A good ninja: Kaede Nagase from Mahou Sensei Negima. She's the tall girl with eyes that are always closed. Aside from being 5'11", while in a Japanese Junior High(!), and probably having a weird hair color (green, but sometimes shown as gray) she doesn't stick out very much.

She's calm, quiet, wise, fairly smart (though it doesn't translate into being book-smart, her grades are rubbish) and incredibly deadly in a fight.

Side note...best manga ever!


Just be sure to name your Ninja Belli Vit and you'll be fine.

Also, who even gives a f#%~? Play the character you want to play.

Though I will say don't listen to all the negative nancies on this forum, Monk is a fun as hell class, though not the base no-archetype version IMO. Take Master or Many Styles, Monk of the Four Winds, something like that instead. My Drunken MoMS is also somewhat Ninja-esque currently, being somewhat stealthy and having a very cunning based fighting style.

He's also the only guy in the party who can Climb. The Barbarian tries but he can never seem to make the DC for climbing something like a slippery rock face 500 feet straight up.


Kazarath wrote:

I've been reading through the core books recently because I still have to make a new character (our gaming group still hasn't reconvened due to the holidays), and I'm torn. I was going to go with monk, but reading (and developing a serious headache from) this thread, I've kind of been soured on the idea. And determining not to play a caster (do to another semi-related headache nightmare) I started looking for non-caster classes that already haven't been filled in my group.

Here's where I ran into my current problem. I read through the ninja's class features, and I love them, but I hate ninjas. This hatred mostly stems from the popularization of Naruto. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that I'm dead set on playing a Kitsune (or possibly an Oni descended tiefling)

So tell me, is their anyway I could play a kitsune ninja without other people viewing me as a Naruto fanboy?

Naruto is not Ninjas. I mean the main charater wears an orange jumpsuit for goodness sakes. Naruto is a shounin story about weird wizards battling each other by throwing shurikens and overwhelming each other with their spells, using magic eyes to learn other peoples' spells, and so forth. Rarely do they -- by anything I've seen -- do anything that actually seems like a classic Ninja by any means. Rarely are they stealthy, they are often incredibly direct, so much as to engage their foes while standing in a circle taking turns trying to overcome the BBEG.

Let's recap.
Ninja || Not Ninja.
Ninja || Not Ninja
Ninja || Not Ninja
Ninja || Not...oh well he's okay....


^They do do a lot of very Ninja-y things, but only in flashbacks mostly.

The bits where they flashback to infiltrating places to steal documents and get out without being seen, for example.


Ten Steps to avoiding being Naruto(tm)!

Step 1. Don't wear orange
Step 2. Don't want to be any type of ruler
Step 3. Don't ever mention you are a ninja.
Step 4. Don't take Mirror Image.
Step 5. Don't ever describe your character as glowing red with rage.
Step 6. Do be well adjusted in society, without pranking.
Step 7. Do make Diplomacy Rolls without beating someone up.
Step 8. Do occasionally bluff or use tactics.
Step 9. Do care about other people's thoughts, opinions, and dreams.
Step 10. Do brutally murder any ally that joins a Michael Jackson clone instead of obsessing over him.

Scarab Sages

Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
I like the idea of reskinning the class as an Islamic Hashishin. Make your short sword curved and you're in like Flynn.

Yeah, that's my favorite ninja-who-isn't-a-ninja idea.

Or just be the James Bond (or Sterling Archer...) of Taldor [insert fantasy nation that would have an espionage agency here]. All of the skills of the ninja, a dapper suit and an expense account.

On your sheet, write down 'Agent' or 'Operative' or 'Gentleman Adventurer' or 'Two-Fisted Aristocrat.'


You could just always be a Rogue and take the Ki-Pool trick and then start taking Ninja tricks if you dislike the Ninja abilities. The Rogue's Ki-Pool is based on Wisdom and not Charisma.


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So if you want to play a Kitsune Ninja you can wind up as a really good fighter AND have a ton of fun as an infiltration specialist at the same time. It's a path I highly recommend.

For combat, just go with a standard 2-Weapon Fighter build. The trick pick up Ninja Trick: Vanish and then at level 10 pick up Invisible Blade for multiple rounds of Greater Invisibility to land sneak attacks in. It's a great way to make sure you get those extra damage dice in for some reliable, high damage.

For infiltration, you're going to want the feat Realistic Likeness, which let's you assume the shape of any individual you've encountered and gives you a +10 on Disguise checks to fool others with your impersonation. Since you can choose Rogue Talents along with Ninja Tricks, look at grabbing Minor Magic then Major Magic to pick up Vocal Alteration twice/day. Use to mimic the voice of the person you're impersonating and you get another +10 on that Disguise check =P. Alternatively you could use wands for Vocal Alteration, but the effects won't last as long and you'll have to be careful when you recast the spell. Even so, an investment of a feat and a couple of rogue talents / ninja tricks is a good trade for +20 on disguise checks and nearly perfect shape shifting.

You may also want to look into ways to learn additional languages. Training Linguistics isn't a bad idea and has the bonus of letting you forge documents. Dipping a few levels into Sorcerer would also give you access to some spells to help you with infiltration tactics, as well some useful bloodline abilities. You'll want to fight with just a single weapon in that case though, as your BAB will suffer.


magnuskn wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
It would be wierd, but how about a Kitsune Rogue with a 2 level dip in Paladin? Charisma-based, sneak attack, and talents. (since rogues and ninjas can get each others talents)
Ninja and Paladin don't do well together. Poison Use and the Paladin's code are quite incompatible.

I am pretty sure that Clerics are the class for Naruto Shinobi (good buffed melee and horrific combat magic), maybe Magus or Qigon Monk might also work.


magnuskn wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
It would be wierd, but how about a Kitsune Rogue with a 2 level dip in Paladin? Charisma-based, sneak attack, and talents. (since rogues and ninjas can get each others talents)
Ninja and Paladin don't do well together. Poison Use and the Paladin's code are quite incompatible.

simple, dont use poisons then. there are multitudes of other, more honorable, ways to kill people.

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