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/me chuckles at the thought that something in Golarion (or even Paizo) would be anti-chtululand, and then stops trolling...
I can't think of any, but I'm sure most of the good gods would frown upon the cults of the elder evils. Actually, most of the gods would probably oppose them. After all, these are creatures who want to enslave/destroy/eat/make crazy all the mortals in the prime material, so all the gods who want their mortals active may have a problem with the above intentions of the cthululand monsters.
Any god who's alignment is listed with either of these words - Lawful or Good
Qlippothim hate the Dark Tapestry.
I have always suspected that Desna is a former dark tapestry god that became good somehow. Similar to how other gods became corrupted by darkness.
The CoC game and some mythos literature have other Dark Tapestry gods and their cults be the primary and most powerful opposition to each other; i.e., Hastur versus Cthulhu. This is controversial in Mythos fandom, but might make for an interesting enemy of my enemy situation.
And the Derlethian and Dreamlands Mythos stuff has the Elder Gods/Gods of Earth who no doubt correspond to the native deities of Golarion. There are also the Elder Things, and other extraterrestrial beings (Yithians, etc), who might be opposed to these powers.
I have always suspected that Desna is a former dark tapestry god that became good somehow. Similar to how other gods became corrupted by darkness.
Kind of an inverted Zon-Kuthon?
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The CoC game and some mythos literature have other Dark Tapestry gods and their cults be the primary and most powerful opposition to each other; i.e., Hastur versus Cthulhu.
*rage of a Lovecraftian purist* >:(
;)
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I have always suspected that Desna is a former dark tapestry god that became good somehow. Similar to how other gods became corrupted by darkness.
Many of the Dark Tapestry gods are 'evil 'cause we said so' anyway, it seems. *Some* of them would love to eradicate mankind and turn Golarion into a wonderland of awe and horror for their own aberrant kind, but that's no more 'evil' or 'chaotic' than a Mendevian crusader wanting to kill alla demons or a Lastwall crusader wanting to kill alla orcs.
Sometimes members of other species live on land that you want for yourself, and genocide is the perfectly acceptable solution, even if you're lawful good, so why should it be any less lawful or good if Cthulhu wants to wipe humanity from the face of Golarion to make more lebensraum for the shoggoth?
The whole point of Great Old style Lovecraftian horrors is that they *aren't* evil, because they don't care about us enough to be malicious or cruel or sadistic. It's not 'evil' for me to stomp on a dozen ant-hills on the way to work, or to eat three unborn chickens and a few shaved bits of dead pig for breakfast, and it shouldn't be any more evil for a starspawn to plotz down in a village and eat everyone, since, to them, we are the ants and the chickens and the pigs.
It's that whole passive evil vs. active evil things. Fire isn't evil because it's destructive or it burns us. It just does what is in its nature to do, without malice or mercy, compassion or cruelty. Cthulhu doesn't 'hate' humanity any more than fire does. We're just in the way, and as utterly meaningless to Cthulhu as dry grass is to fire.
That's what is scary about Lovecraft's 'old ones.'
They don't care enough about us to be evil.
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Speaking only for myself, I think some things that should be philosophically neutral (mindless undead and Lovecraftian horrors specifically) get labelled evil because the game includes good-aligned clerics and paladins as protagonist options. Or rather, it seems really weird that Smite Evil won't wallop a zombie, and odd that "The Power of Sarenrae Compels you" won't help banish Cthulu (in a game where the PCs are meant to win, at least. I realize the great old ones couldn't care less about mortal religion.) And similarly, that the apocalypse cult that worships the Great Old Ones and seeks to bring about the end of the world would be populated by evil cultists.
Also, even though god stat blocks have alignments, that's the alignment that mortals have to be within one step of to receive magic, not necessarily the alignment of the deity itself. Perhaps the "Gods" of the dark tapestry are Neutral, but only Evil mortals are of such a mindset necessary to devote themselves and receive magic in return.
Well put Ross. An earthquake IS evil to a society that has collectively anthropomorphized earthquakes. Since the game revolves around the PCs, the mechanical function of Good and Evil should be from the 'average' PCs perspective I think. Making many philosophically neutral things functionally evil.
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Perhaps the "Gods" of the dark tapestry are Neutral, but only Evil mortals are of such a mindset necessary to devote themselves and receive magic in return.This makes sense to me.
Note that Yog-Sothoth is not evil in Wake of the Watcher's writeup. Just misunderstood. Actually, he was one of the convenient gods to worship in CoC and still protect the universe from the dangerous ones - Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, etc. But then, I actually played a wizard in CoC (Cthulhu Mythos 30%, Sanity 65%, many spells and tomes, lots of POW). Eventually reired, of course, but still consulted by the party for info and spellcasting. Not sure if that's how the game is meant to be played, mind you...
This is more of a John Dee type rather than an Alhazred, of course.
Doesn't copy & pasting Cthulu and Company into a setting that actually has divine being that care (For good or ill) about the puny mortals make the whole point of the Mythos moot?
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Doesn't copy & pasting Cthulu and Company into a setting that actually has divine being that care (For good or ill) about the puny mortals make the whole point of the Mythos moot?
Not at all.
It might make Lovecraft's themes of "there is no higher power" moot, but there's a HELL of a lot more to Lovecraft than that.
Doesn't copy & pasting Cthulu and Company into a setting that actually has divine being that care (For good or ill) about the puny mortals make the whole point of the Mythos moot?Not at all.
It might make Lovecraft's themes of "there is no higher power" moot, but there's a HELL of a lot more to Lovecraft than that.
It's not about futility and nihilism with the investigators fighting a losing battle?
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It's not about futility and nihilism with the investigators fighting a losing battle?
Not after Cthulhu got his head bashed in by a ship, anyway.
Sure, many Lovecraft stories end with some dude going quietly insane (or getting eaten), but none of them end with the 'great old ones' destroying the world.
More generally, one man's world (or, at least, his preconceptions about it) is shattered. The world goes on. Stuff that the rest of the world doesn't want to know about continues to happen in the shadows.
The existential despair of 'there are no gods watching over us, or, if there are, they are vast, cool and unsympathetic, and care not for us at all,' is indeed a powerful part of the 'age of enlightenment' issues that Lovecraft was addressing, but they can still exist in a setting where there are powerful benevolent outsiders as well, so long as the ancient horrors remain a threat. Note that, in Golarion, the majority of gods, good or evil, are from other dimensions, and not native to this reality. The gods *of this world* are the old gods, and the only escape from them is to *literally* escape, swearing your soul to some extradimensional outsider, and fleeing the plane entirely.
That's pretty dark, right there. Sell your soul. Doesn't matter to whom, Asmodeus or Iomedae, but sell it fast, because if you don't get out, the god of this world is named Azathoth, and you don't want none of that.
I have always suspected that Desna is a former dark tapestry god that became good somehow. Similar to how other gods became corrupted by darkness.Many of the Dark Tapestry gods are 'evil 'cause we said so' anyway, it seems. *Some* of them would love to eradicate mankind and turn Golarion into a wonderland of awe and horror for their own aberrant kind, but that's no more 'evil' or 'chaotic' than a Mendevian crusader wanting to kill alla demons or a Lastwall crusader wanting to kill alla orcs.
Actually, a Lastwall crusader doesn't want to wipe Orcs out just because he has fun killing green things, but rather because the greens fester, corrupt and destroy.
The Dark Tapestry tree-friends, instead, don't seem to have a problem with Humans and everyone else meaning harm to them or to things they love. They merely slaughter on whim. Which, not only in a game with alignments, usually means evil.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's pretty dark, right there. Sell your soul. Doesn't matter to whom, Asmodeus or Iomedae, but sell it fast, because if you don't get out, the god of this world is named Azathoth, and you don't want none of that.
Damn.
I have always suspected that Desna is a former dark tapestry god that became good somehow. Similar to how other gods became corrupted by darkness.Many of the Dark Tapestry gods are 'evil 'cause we said so' anyway, it seems. *Some* of them would love to eradicate mankind and turn Golarion into a wonderland of awe and horror for their own aberrant kind, but that's no more 'evil' or 'chaotic' than a Mendevian crusader wanting to kill alla demons or a Lastwall crusader wanting to kill alla orcs.
Sometimes members of other species live on land that you want for yourself, and genocide is the perfectly acceptable solution, even if you're lawful good, so why should it be any less lawful or good if Cthulhu wants to wipe humanity from the face of Golarion to make more lebensraum for the shoggoth?
The whole point of Great Old style Lovecraftian horrors is that they *aren't* evil, because they don't care about us enough to be malicious or cruel or sadistic. It's not 'evil' for me to stomp on a dozen ant-hills on the way to work, or to eat three unborn chickens and a few shaved bits of dead pig for breakfast, and it shouldn't be any more evil for a starspawn to plotz down in a village and eat everyone, since, to them, we are the ants and the chickens and the pigs.
It's that whole passive evil vs. active evil things. Fire isn't evil because it's destructive or it burns us. It just does what is in its nature to do, without malice or mercy, compassion or cruelty. Cthulhu doesn't 'hate' humanity any more than fire does. We're just in the way, and as utterly meaningless to Cthulhu as dry grass is to fire.
That's what is scary about Lovecraft's 'old ones.'
They don't care enough about us to be evil.
Couldn't the same argument be made about the qlippoth in an inverted fashion. Evil dead mortals are invading their abysss and consuming them.
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Damn.That's pretty dark, right there. Sell your soul. Doesn't matter to whom, Asmodeus or Iomedae, but sell it fast, because if you don't get out, the god of this world is named Azathoth, and you don't want none of that.
That was blacker than the blackest black, times infinity.[/nathanexplosion]
So what about the Elder Gods? I mean if you're looking for an organization to hunt Great Old Ones--guys like Nodens go on great hunts specifically looking for them.
The way I tend to look at the Mythos creatures is that they fall into basically three groups:
Outer Gods: So far beyond mortal care or concern they pose us neither ill nor good. They're usually insensate and might kill you by accident but aren't particularly badguys, more forces of nature. Don't summon them, but otherwise you're fine.
Elder Gods: Gain some benefit from the status quo. Bast really likes cats. She'll fight Great Old Ones to protect them. Doesn't care about humans at all, but because cats benefit from humans we benefit from her. Nodens hunts the dreamlands--so the destruction of humans diminishes his resources, so he chases them around on his conch shell chariot driven by nightgaunts. In the mythos, really most of the gods in pathfinder would be concidered Elder Gods. Rovagug would be a Great Old One--at least that's how I play him.
Great Old Ones: Alien and insane in ways that are corruptive and hostile. They want to flood the world with slime and mutation or can't stand the color blue and so purge the universe to eliminate it. These things are weird and by their very nature cause insanity and death. Zon-Kuthon got a taste of this--as possibly did Lamashtu, or maybe she's just messed up. Rovagug is a Great Old One in my book, as ar Nyarlethotep, Cthuhlu, Dagon and the rest.
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So what about the Elder Gods?
There aren't really any "Elder Gods" in Golarion. In Lovecraft's writings, the "Elder Gods" are really "those gods who AREN'T Great Old Ones or Outer Gods." In the context of Golarion, therefore, the category of "Elder Gods" would include all of the game's deities EXCEPT the Lovecraft ones—from Desna to Cyth-V'Sug to Zyphus to the empyrial lords and so on.
There aren't really any "Elder Gods" in Golarion. In Lovecraft's writings, the "Elder Gods" are really "those gods who AREN'T Great Old Ones or Outer Gods." In the context of Golarion, therefore, the category of "Elder Gods" would include all of the game's deities EXCEPT the Lovecraft ones—from Desna to Cyth-V'Sug to Zyphus to the empyrial lords and so on.
That's weird. Why would the Lovecraft Great Old Ones exist in Golarion, but not the Lovecraft Elder Gods? I mean expecially if they're all from the same physical place? How could some exist without the others?
There aren't really any "Elder Gods" in Golarion. In Lovecraft's writings, the "Elder Gods" are really "those gods who AREN'T Great Old Ones or Outer Gods." In the context of Golarion, therefore, the category of "Elder Gods" would include all of the game's deities EXCEPT the Lovecraft ones—from Desna to Cyth-V'Sug to Zyphus to the empyrial lords and so on.That's weird. Why would the Lovecraft Great Old Ones exist in Golarion, but not the Lovecraft Elder Gods? I mean expecially if they're all from the same physical place? How could some exist without the others?
Think about it like this: The Elder Gods of the Earth realm are Bast, Nodens, etc. The Great Old Ones transcend planes, while simultaneously being trapped in them (like a straw forced through a book - they exist on multiple pages but only at a give point in any one page). The Elder Gods of Golarion are the pantheon that focus their attention on that world, like Desna, Torag, etc.
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There aren't really any "Elder Gods" in Golarion. In Lovecraft's writings, the "Elder Gods" are really "those gods who AREN'T Great Old Ones or Outer Gods." In the context of Golarion, therefore, the category of "Elder Gods" would include all of the game's deities EXCEPT the Lovecraft ones—from Desna to Cyth-V'Sug to Zyphus to the empyrial lords and so on.That's weird. Why would the Lovecraft Great Old Ones exist in Golarion, but not the Lovecraft Elder Gods? I mean expecially if they're all from the same physical place? How could some exist without the others?
Same reason Lamashtu exists on Golarion, but other Mesopotamian deities don't—because we as the creators of Golarion have to this date not decided to include the "elder gods." And frankly, the category of "Elder Gods" is, in the grand scheme of things, really pretty minor in Lovecraft's writing anyway.
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In Lovecraft's writings, he never classifies any of his alien-god-things as "Elder Gods" that I can remember. (Then again, he also doesn't ever classify any "Outer Gods" either, and the most prominent use of "Great Old Ones" would seem to refer to Cthulhu's race more so than a varied bunch of demi-god level aliens, as the term is usually used.)
Of the very few "Elder Gods" that Lovecraft mentions, most really don't do ANYTHING. The most active, Nodens, still barely does anything. The only difference between "Elder Gods" and the Great Old Ones / Outer Gods seems to be that the Elder Gods are somewhat less inherently incompatible with how a human perceives reality.
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Well, for starters...
CoC fans ( I am one ) have the tendency to group Lovecrafts entities in big categories. It isn't that simple. For instance, Nyarlathotep isn't a 'great old one', he is the Soul and Messenger of Infinity's Other Gods', the Crawling Chaos. He (it) usually gets a lame wrap in games. Nyarlathotep has countless forms for each of intelligent things in the universe and more, and is generally thought of the be the living will and personality of mindless universal forces - specifically Azathoth, who is a blind idiot - that is, a churning mass of centralized chaos. Entropy itself. That would make the Crawling Chaos... entropy that seeps in, mindfully, corrupting, leading willfully all things to their end in Azathoth. The short prose-poem Nyarlathotep demonstrates this.
In Dream-quest, Nyarlathotep is seen mocking and chastizing the 'little gods of man'; the Elder Gods. In Golarion, it might be well to run him as such. It might be also in play that the gods of Golarion might not actually know what those things and truths in the Dark Tapestry are or represent. Perhaps they feign ignorance or ignore their presence, because they too are afraid. Like parents nervously watching their children play in the surf, they are aware that the ocean could sweep them away - though those parents would rush to save them. In the end, however, they are still just people against the entire ocean, and when tidal waves happen, parents and children both die, with the ocean being none the wiser.
This is provoking another thread idea..
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The agents of the Dark Tapestry are not really that significant or obvious or organized a force on Golarion, and as such, they haven't really built up any sort of significant opposition. Yet.
One that DOES come to mind, though, is the church of Desna. And Desna herself.
Ummm... so Desna supports the Dark Tapestry?
Or fights against it?
Whose side is she on...?
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The agents of the Dark Tapestry are not really that significant or obvious or organized a force on Golarion, and as such, they haven't really built up any sort of significant opposition. Yet.
One that DOES come to mind, though, is the church of Desna. And Desna herself.
Ummm... so Desna supports the Dark Tapestry?
Or fights against it?
Whose side is she on...?
Dark Tapestry is more of a place, not a monolithic group of Lovecraftian horrors. Anything that can be found in deep space/dimensions? and/or is alien enough probably gets lumped in that loosely defined group, if I've understood it correctly.
Desna for example is incredibly alien in origin, but she's entirely benign as well. Saying she's on Golarion's side rather than the Dark Tapestry's is probably oversimplifying, because there's things like her and flumphs and whatever else out in the Dark Tapestry and there's all the evil baggage homegrown in Golarion. But she would work to protect Golarion from malicious or uncaring Dark Tapestry-related entities that would endanger Golarion.
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The agents of the Dark Tapestry are not really that significant or obvious or organized a force on Golarion, and as such, they haven't really built up any sort of significant opposition. Yet.
One that DOES come to mind, though, is the church of Desna. And Desna herself.
Ummm... so Desna supports the Dark Tapestry?
Or fights against it?
Whose side is she on...?
Desna fights against the agents and influences of the Dark Tapestry... if only because she's seeking redemption and forgiveness and atonement for letting Ghlaunder out of his cocoon.
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I think that it's a bit wrong to call it "anti-Dark Tapestry"...the Dark Tapestry essentially is everything in the Material Plane that isn't Golarion's solar system. Yeah, there's a lot of freaky wierd and malign stuff out there, but there is stuff out there that's benign as well, or at least not overtly manevolent.
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At least, that's how I always interpreted them and how I use them in my campaigns :-P.
I think that it's a bit wrong to call it "anti-Dark Tapestry"...the Dark Tapestry essentially is everything in the Material Plane that isn't Golarion's solar system. Yeah, there's a lot of freaky wierd and malign stuff out there, but there is stuff out there that's benign as well, or at least not overtly manevolent.
You would say that, wouldn't you. (*mutters in paranoia about getting us to drop our guard*)
But, yes, basically this is correct.
EDIT: Golden-Esque just made me so happy.
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I think that it's a bit wrong to call it "anti-Dark Tapestry"...the Dark Tapestry essentially is everything in the Material Plane that isn't Golarion's solar system. Yeah, there's a lot of freaky wierd and malign stuff out there, but there is stuff out there that's benign as well, or at least not overtly manevolent.
Actually, not quite true.
The Dark Tapestry is NOT the "rest of the universe" at all. What exactly it is, we haven't completely set in stone yet in print... but one way to think of it is that it's the parts of the universe that galaxes are afraid to go—it's the darkest corners of reality, where few stars shine and strange unseen things rule in their stead.
I think that it's a bit wrong to call it "anti-Dark Tapestry"...the Dark Tapestry essentially is everything in the Material Plane that isn't Golarion's solar system. Yeah, there's a lot of freaky wierd and malign stuff out there, but there is stuff out there that's benign as well, or at least not overtly manevolent.Actually, not quite true.
The Dark Tapestry is NOT the "rest of the universe" at all. What exactly it is, we haven't completely set in stone yet in print... but one way to think of it is that it's the parts of the universe that galaxes are afraid to go—it's the darkest corners of reality, where few stars shine and strange unseen things rule in their stead.
Ohoho! A new challenger has appeared!
(Actually, this is pretty nifty. Also, it probably ties into the Star Child thing, or something similar.)|
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The Dark Tapestry is NOT the "rest of the universe" at all. What exactly it is, we haven't completely set in stone yet in print... but one way to think of it is that it's the parts of the universe that galaxes are afraid to go—it's the darkest corners of reality, where few stars shine and strange unseen things rule in their stead.
Has kind of a 'Tiamat' feel (Apophis, whatever), the primordial dark sea of chaos that regarded the intrusion of light and form and definition as a fundamental violation, and wishes to surge back from the corners of the universe and smother this painful upstart presence.
Kinda goes with one of Lovecraft's premises, that greater knowledge brings only greater despair, with 'illumination' leading to madness, as it only allows you to see things that you desperately wish you could have remained ignorant of. His books always felt to me like a recoil against the age of enlightenment, where mankind was no longer the center of Creation, and the scientific exploration of the universe (vast, cool and unsympathetic) served to make an individual man (or, Lovecraft, at least) feel small and insignificant.
Or, yanno, maybe, as is my wont, I'm overthinking it... :)