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Ultimate Archer


Advice

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For a 12 level build...

The halfling archer (on whatever disposable mount you'd prefer):

Ranger2(trapper, archery style)/Paladin2(divine hunter)/Monk8(Sohei/Qinggong)

Feats: (Rapid Shot), (Precise Shot), Lookout (assuming a fellow will also take it), Deadly Aim, ManyShot, Improved Crit (bow), (Mounted Combat), (Trick Riding), (Indomitable Mount) .. free feats at 5 & 9.

Saves are through the roof, damage is reasonable, number of arrows is high per round, etc.

If Leadership is allowed (say non-PFS) spend 9th level feat on it for a mount. The Sohei abilities will help keep even wand of mount ponies alive, and you really don't NEED the mount in all honesty... its just mobility.

Last feat.. maybe improved init (to make it insane as you're already getting +4 from sohei).

-James

Andoran

Qinggong is just a trap to sucker you into using up all your Ki in about three seconds.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Qinggong is just a trap to sucker you into using up all your Ki in about three seconds.

Well for me it was a way to switch the silly standard action spend 2 ki for a mediocre wound cure for spend 1 ki to get a barkskin... but YMMV.

I don't think that it would be used all that often, but I know it MIGHT be used meanwhile I'd never use a standard action to spend 2ki on that stupid monk ability.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
Qinggong is just a trap to sucker you into using up all your Ki in about three seconds.

Well for me it was a way to switch the silly standard action spend 2 ki for a mediocre wound cure for spend 1 ki to get a barkskin... but YMMV.

I don't think that it would be used all that often, but I know it MIGHT be used meanwhile I'd never use a standard action to spend 2ki on that stupid monk ability.

-James

that ability is extremely effective as a " before i sleep i get to max hp" then you reload your ki points when you wake up. makes your cleric/oricle/druid very happy


truesidekick wrote:


that ability is extremely effective as a " before i sleep i get to max hp" then you reload your ki points when you wake up. makes your cleric/oricle/druid very happy

For 2 ki points (out of his 6 or so) he can heal.. wait for it.. 8hps!

He's got a silly lay on hands for 1d6 at a time.. so if that degree of healing is needed.. he'll burn those.

Meanwhile he can trade out the standard action 2 ki points to heal 8hps for a choice to spend 1 ki to get a barkskin should he want it.

If the barkskin isn't palatable.. go with ki stand.. something an archer should wish.. spend the ki if you don't want to provoke.. otherwise suck it up.. but still get the full attack when tripped.

-James

Andoran

kind of off topic but since the sohei came up is there a consensus on what the "Mounted Combat feats" are?


bhh39 wrote:
kind of off topic but since the sohei came up is there a consensus on what the "Mounted Combat feats" are?

Anything that requires mounted combat or requires a feat that in turn requires mounted combat. Basically anything in that 'feat tree'.

Much like you could say 'Combat Expertise feats' and mean things like improved disarm, whirlwind, etc. Or 'Power attack feats' and include such as Cleave or Improved Bull Rush.

-James


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Considering the thread says Ultimate Archer, here's my take on one bad@$$ archer.

Azoth Smolursa:

(BTW, my GM had us use a 32 point buy. However, his atk & dmg output will not change, those scores are the same, his wis core and int score will be different though.) If you want to use 25 pt. I suggest STR: 16 DEX: 18 CON: 10 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 7

Azoth Smolursa
Male 24 yrs old NG
Human (+2 dex)(all favored class benefits-> HP (20))

32 point buy (Very high magic campaign!)

Str: 26 (+8) [+6 enhance., +4 inherent]
Dex: 36 (+13) [+2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Con: 22 (+6) [+6 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 12 (+1)
Wis: 20 (+5) [+6 item] (if you want, get a +4 manual)survival, perception, grit points, and your will save go up +2.
Cha: 7 (-2)

Class and Racial abilities:
Hawkeye: +5 perception, +25 ft with bows
Trickshot: -4 CMB; up to 30ft away/ disarm, trip, sunder,
Expert archer:+4 atk/dmg with bows
Safe shot: do not provoke AoO w/bows
Evasive archer: +4 dodge to AC
Volley: highest atk, roll vs all enemies within 15 ft.
Ranged defense: dr5/- vs ranged atks; snatch arrow AND fire it back
Weapon Mastery (longbow) (x4 crit and auto confirm all crits!)

Hit Dice: 20d10+120 + 20 (favored class-HP)
Hit Points: 250
AC: 35 (+11 Armor, +8 Dexterity, +1 haste, +5 Natural armor, +5 defelction, +4 dodge, +1 insight) [Touch 18, Flat-footed 25] (w/ +5 buckler w/ fortification). AC is 41 when not attacking or using weapon.
Init: +16 (+12 Dex,+2 trait, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 40 (70ft haste) (flight 70, haste/flight= 100ft)

Saves:
Fortitude +25 [+12 base, +6 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +27 [+6 base, +13 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck, +1 haste]
Will +20 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]

CMB: +46 (with bow for trickshot= bab 20 + 13 dex (works) + 2 GWF + 5 enhancement + 1 luck + 1 comp +2 ioun resonate +6 Expert archer -4 trickshot)= 46
CMD: +65 (cannot be grappled, cannot be disarmed while wielding a longbow, 69 vs sunder while wielding a longbow)= 10 + 20 bab + 8 str + 13 dex + 5 defelection + 4 dodge + 1 luck + 1 comp + 2 ioun resonate +1 insight= 65 (if luck stone doesn't work, its still a +45 cmb/ +64 cmd)

Skills:
Acrobatics +35 (20 ranks, +13 Dex, +1 Competence, +1 luck)
Perception +36 (20 ranks, +5 Wis, +1 Competence, +5 hawkeye +4 alertness ioun stone, +1 luck)
Survival +30 (20 ranks, +5 wis, +1 competence, +1 luck, +3 class)
Stealth= + 30 (15 ranks, +13 dex, +1 competence, +1 luck)
Know: dungeoneering +7(1 rank, +1 int, +1 comp, +1 luck, +3 class)
Know: engineering +7(1 rank, +1 int, +1 comp, +1 luck, +3 class)
craft: bowyer +9 (1 rank, +1 int, +1 comp, +1 luck, +3 class, +2 mw tools)
2 skill points left to put where you want ( I put one in climb, and either ride or fly) if you get flight, fly, if mount, or anything else (hell riding on a friendly's back if they wildshape into a dragon lets say (happened 2 weeks ago for me,--> ride)

Feats:
Rapid Shot(Human bonus)
Point Blank Shot (Fighter bonus)
Precise Shot(1 HD)
Weapon focus: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Deadly Aim (3 HD)
Weapon Specialization(Fighter bonus)
Combat Reflexes (5 HD)
Many Shot(Fighter bonus)
Clustered Shots(7 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus(Fighter bonus)
snap shot(9 HD)
improved snap shot(Fighter bonus)
Improved Precise Shot (11 HD)
greater weapon specialization(Fighter bonus)
pin down(13 HD)
improved critical(Fighter bonus) (or switch big game hunter, campaign varies)
amateur gunslinger (15 HD)
blind fight (Fighter bonus)
ricochet shot deed (17 HD)
big game hunter (Fighter bonus)
Impact critical shot (not necessarily needed (can use this feat and 20th level to get w/e you want), but even on your worse atttack its a +26 to your roll, so good odds.(19 HD)
Either toughness, quickdraw, farshot, whatever you want also,(Fighter bonus)

Equipment:
2x efficient quivers
+5 celestial armor (flight, 3 times a day, 5 min)
2 or more: +5 composite longbows (mighty +8) w/ Seeking, Holy, Distance... 2nd backup bow, maybe have merciful on it, so no more -4 penalty. (looks like +5 comp. longbow (mighty +8) seeking, merciful, distance... holy not needed)
ring of freedom of movement
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied)
manual of gainful exercise +4 (already applied)
manual of bodily health +4 (already applied)
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
headband of inspired wisdom +6
goz mask
boots of speed/striding springing/flight/ pass without trace = Ultimate archer boots!!
greater bracers of archery
cloak of resistance +5
eyes of the eagle
pale green prism ioun stone
luckstone
20 +1 holy arrows
20 +1 axiomatic arrows
20 +1 anarchic arrows
50 durable arrows
20 smoke arrows
200 broad
10 pheromone
20 bleeding
50 blunt
adamantine blanch
ghost salt blanch
20 rain arrows (get full (with holy water), and empty, 5 gp---> fill with normal water, to put out a fire. good use of roleplay, never seen a gm not reward for thinking of something like that.
20 dye arrows
15 whistling arrows
100 thistle arrows
300 arrows

Also, get an efficient quiver, or two and get them Abundant ammunition casted on, with permanency spell.)
----------------------------
BAB: +20
Ranged Atk: +41*/+41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (1d8+2d6+37/ x4; average 48.5)

(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +13 Dex, +2 Greater Weapon Focus, +6 Weapon Training, +5 Enhancement, +2 Competence, +1 haste, -2 Rapid Shot, -6 Deadly Aim)

(Damage Breakdown: 4.5 average of 1d8, +7 average damage of 2d6, +8 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +4 Greater Weapon Specialization, +6 Expert Archer, +12 Deadly Aim, +2 Competence) Avg. dmg per round if all hit= 339.5

I have not a clue hwo t odo dpr. I found a formula for it, but i still dont know what the "chance to hit" percentages are for my attacks.

BTW, If I use broad arrows 1d10, getting gravity bow casted on me--- 1d10>2d8, so 9 avg dmg for arrows/atk

(heres a little math of the difference of dmg between using normal arrow (with gravity bow -> 2d6) vs. 1d10--> 2d8

2d6-> avg. 7pts vs 2d8 9pts .... 7 arrows across 6 attacks. lets say all hit. 7 x 2 [ 9-7=2] = 14, 14 pts per round, not much, but thats still 14 more points per round just from switching out the arrow. No brainer. BTW, broad arrows according to pfsrd are -10 ft from range increment. Not a problem, considering your shooting at 135ft anywy (thanks Hawkeye ability!). so that makes it 125 ft.... still 15 more ft than any other archer around you.

Btw, if your shooting vs. other archers, if thye use this little tactic, unless they're you, i.e. an fighter archer archetype, their going to be shooting at 110 (100 w/ broad) ft max (110 with hvy crossbow). Also, due to your snapshot feats, that 25 ft cushion will overlap (-5 ft of outer most spots) with your trickshot area of death around you, and you won't be that much hampered by ranged attacks, b/c your 15 ft threatened area will be your litte killing ground.

Just picture it:

Just think of this. You can volley once a round out to 15ft. Your enemies you threaten(15ft) can't move with provoking, can't withdraw without you stopping them, no 5ft step, you can disarm, sunder, trip, bull rush, grapple out to 30 ft. You can shoot off walls or terrain, or other solid objects JUST IN CASE you're not in the right spot or enemies are behind a wall or something. AND you can shoot out to 135 ft. with distance on your bow is 110 x 2= 220 + 25 = 245ft. True, your not a sohei shooting off a machinegun, but, you are the most flexible of any other build, b/c you have the feats. True, zen archers get more, or similar amount of feats. BUt do they get t ochoose those feats? Nope. Their locked in. Paizo could publish the ultimate of all feats, let dex to dmg with your bow, or Soemthign crazy. and guess what, this build will have it, b/c it can. Zen archers, will always be the same. I chose feats for Azoth that will pretty much always will be on and effective. That's why i opted out of using greater snapshot, its too conditional. Hell, imprved critical is only being used b/c it offers only a slim chance more for you to crit. For an arrow to crit at 20th level, to do 4d8 + 2d6 + 144 pts of dmg thats nothing to laugh at. Now, imagine doing that during your volley attack. Remember, its at your highest atk bonus, but you can apply DA, no need for -2 from RS. you have a 10% to crit on upwards of 36 enemies (total squares you threaten, to do potential of [ 144d8 + 72d6 + 5184 dmg total in that round if all attacks hit. Which at 20th lvl is +43 atk (41 from looking at sheet, +2 from not using RS). Your pretty much going to hit each guy, and even if you dont crit, thats still on avg. 48.5 pts of damage per enemy.... All the while, there is an obscuring mist, or thick cloud out in the way. Goz mask---> your fine, and so are your shots, especially with seeking ability and improved precise shot.

Archery is about positioning, discipline, flexibility, and calculation. Taking your time rolls into discipline. Of all other builds, I think the fighter archer wins in the flexibility dept. of what he can do when it deals with archery. Anything else, and your looking more along the lines of a zen archer.


Ravingdork wrote:
... I overlooked the static bonus feats, Perfect Strike, Point Blank Master, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization, which puts Zen Archers 1 feat ahead in the first 14 levels. Fighters still get more choice out of their feats though as half their feats are not set in stone with the other half being from an extremely narrow list.
Grizzly Archer wrote:
Archery is about positioning, discipline, flexibility, and calculation. Taking your time rolls into discipline. Of all other builds, I think the fighter archer wins in the flexibility dept. of what he can do when it deals with archery. Anything else, and your looking more along the lines of a zen archer.

I LOVE this thread. It came at a perfect time. I was thinking about going Zen Archer for an upcoming PFS game, but was having second thoughts, now I'm sure.

I quoted the two threads, because they seemed similar to me, and said the Zen Archer wasn't as flexible. I'm not sure that's true, so tell me if I've missed something (or what I'm not seeing):

While it's true the bonus feats are on a limited list, the beauty of them is that for the Monk, they have no prerequisites. At first level both the Zen Archer and Fighter get 2 feats (not counting Human bonus), the difference is that a Fighter's is pretty much set as Point Blank and Precise A Monk can take Precise Shot without Point Blank offering more Flexability.

A Fighter Archer will always worry about AoO, Monk only worries about it until 3rd level. A monk has better mobility (increase speed, Acrobatics as class skill).

There will be times you can't be 100' away from the bad guys (inside a building or dungeon), who's going to get the worst of that? A fighter who has to waste actions either putting his bow away and drawing a melee weapon, or take the AoO, or the Monk who just has to kick the bad guy in the face with dropping or putting away anything? If the fighter decides to use a melee weapon, will it be Magic/Lawful and do 2d6 like the Monk's (assuming 15th level). Let's not forget how easy it is to close with a Fighter (30') compared to a Monk (80', plus dimension door, and later ethreal).

Looking at the two, I'd say hands down the Monk is WAY more flexible than the Fighter. The only place the fighter wins, is, it appears to me, DPR. They hit more often, and do consistant damage as opposed to the Monk who can occasionally beef damage.


The fighter will never have issues with AoO, they have safe shot, acts as point blank master, plus snap shot means I threaten, unlike the monk. did you read my build? it shows how the fighter is not only about dpr. also, I will never need a melee weapon, my back up is still with a bow. unless, i'm thrown in a gladiator arena with nothing but a sword, then I'll use a sword, besides that, your back up weapon is a bow. also the pre requisites only are for those few selected feats. still the monk is locked in. I have no problem having point blank shot, now I get a +1 atk/dmg. other than they, every great is of my choosing. at low levels, the monk pulls ahead, bc of improve precise shot early. but st higher levels, that makes no difference, and I still get to pick what I want.

Osirion

Fighters get safe shot at 9th lvl, Zen archers get point blank master as a class ability at 3rd, can threaten with their feet/elbows at the same level while using a bow. This means from 3rd-9th, the monk can threaten and therefore flank while shooting a bow, which the fighter cannot until 9th, the same level the zen archer gets to do Ao0 with his bow also.


Grizzly Archer wrote:
The fighter will never have issues with AoO, they have safe shot, acts as point blank master, plus snap shot means I threaten, unlike the monk. did you read my build? it shows how the fighter is not only about dpr. also, I will never need a melee weapon, my back up is still with a bow. unless, i'm thrown in a gladiator arena with nothing but a sword, then I'll use a sword, besides that, your back up weapon is a bow. also the pre requisites only are for those few selected feats. still the monk is locked in. I have no problem having point blank shot, now I get a +1 atk/dmg. other than they, every great is of my choosing. at low levels, the monk pulls ahead, bc of improve precise shot early. but st higher levels, that makes no difference, and I still get to pick what I want.

I don't know I guess we're seeing "Flexibility" differently. You're saying you have more choices when you build the Fighter Character, and that may be true (although the builds are very similar in what they can do), however once you've chosen a feat, that's it, no more options.

Let me explain it better: If you're standing 100' away from an enemy who's charging at you, what's your fighter going to do? He's going to launch his volley of arrows, that's really all he has.

What's a Monk going to do? Well he could run the 90' towards the enemy, he could Abundant Step behind the enemy, he could spend some Ki and make all his arrows 2d10. maybe he'll launch a Stunning Attack arrow, or Quivering Palm.

In terms of raw DPR, fighter wins. They'll hit more and confirm crits more, but I still think versatility on the battle field goes to the monk.


redcelt32 wrote:

Fighters get safe shot at 9th lvl, Zen archers get point blank master as a class ability at 3rd, can threaten with their feet/elbows at the same level while using a bow. This means from 3rd-9th, the monk can threaten and therefore flank while shooting a bow, which the fighter cannot until 9th, the same level the zen archer gets to do Ao0 with his bow also.

Hmm, ok so the monk does threaten, but not out to 15 ft The thing is I have no problems with monk zen archer. The problem lies in the fact that they're a monk who uses a bow instead for their fists and other appendages. I would want more Zen for my zen archer. like.. "spend one full round " not moving or attacking, next turn, make all your attacks touch AC, or even all attacks at highest bonus.I don't know, something like that.

Anyway, I really like the flexibility in the combat for the fighter archer. yes the monk can do similar things, but it can't do them as effectively let alone all of them.

to spend a ki point is a swift action, unless you get like 4 swift actions a turn, fighter is still the more dependable of the two. However, rarely will the zen archer lose all his ki points, unless they do a dungeon crawl, or undead city (like my group is doing next week to work on). For the undead city, our monk is going to have a hrd time preserving hose ki points, especially since we can't sit a nd rest in the city; or most liekly not.

hmm, the stunning fist or quivering palm on an arrow is disgusting. hmm, I think after I play this character out, I'll go zen archer, unless sohei somehow seems to be a better option, if so how? To my understanding sohei might be better b/c of RS and MS working w/ flurry of bows? something like that?


porpentine wrote:


Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly)

Here's my question though: Why is this trait important?


Jodokai:

I'd reccomend Snake Style at 3rd and Skill Focus: Sense Motive at 5th. Best decision I possibly could have made as an archer.

Qadira

redcelt32 wrote:

Fighters get safe shot at 9th lvl, Zen archers get point blank master as a class ability at 3rd, can threaten with their feet/elbows at the same level while using a bow. This means from 3rd-9th, the monk can threaten and therefore flank while shooting a bow, which the fighter cannot until 9th, the same level the zen archer gets to do Ao0 with his bow also.

The bolded bit is a common misconception, actually.

PRD on flanking wrote:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Emphasis mine. The same information can be found in the CRB on page 197. Even though you threaten with the bow, you can never flank with it. You can get the bonus from flanking on any Unarmed strikes you may have to make, and you count as flanking for allies, but the +2 bonus won't apply to your bow attacks.

Osirion

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Actually that is probably not entirely true. When fighters and zen archers get their 9th lvl abilities to take AoO with their bow, then they are threatening adjacent squares with their ranged attack. If you are threatening, then it could be argued you are eligible to gain the flanking bonus. Reflexive shot (zen archer) and snap shot (regular feat) didnt appear until books after the CRB, and it could be argued that the verbiage reflects the rules when the CRB was made, which was no ranged attack could threaten. This would make a good FAQ question.

What is not debatable is that you provide a flanking partner for your other party members, like rogues. The flanking bonus would also apply to any AoO you make with unarmed attacks as a monk prior to getting reflexive shot. Its actually not really that important, as ideally you won't be getting that close to your target, since grappling and sundering attacks are not things you want to invite by closing.

Qadira

I am simply saying that, as per RAW, ranged attacks cannot flank. Whether it's because the developers haven't updated it to account for these things (if they want ranged attacks to be eligible for flanking in the first place) or not is a non-issue. As currently written, there is no way for a ranged attacker to get a flanking bonus on his ranged attacks, threatening or not.

Also, when do fighters get the ability to take AoO with their bow? I see that at 9th level, Archers don't draw AoO anymore when using it, but there are no other references to AoO in that archetype.


Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
Also, when do fighters get the ability to take AoO with their bow? I see that at 9th level, Archers don't draw AoO anymore when using it, but there are no other references to AoO in that archetype.

The feat Snapshot allows them to threaten 5' with a bow.

Qadira

Didn't realize it was the feat, I didn't see it mentioned, but I do see now that it was. My points remain valid.


To agree with EL:

Threatening is different than flanking. If the rules for flank say it only works with melee weapons, you can't do it with ranged weapons. If you wanna houserule that anything that threatens can flank, I can see the logic in it, but it's not the standard rules.

Andoran

Mercurial wrote:

Jodokai:

I'd reccomend Snake Style at 3rd and Skill Focus: Sense Motive at 5th. Best decision I possibly could have made as an archer.

If you use the immediate action to avoid a ranged attack, then you can't spend Ki next turn (i.e., to add +4 to AC, etc).


Jodokai wrote:
porpentine wrote:


Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly)
Here's my question though: Why is this trait important?

It's important because, at high levels, flight is important; because a zen archer's Wisdom is going to be sky-high; and because an archer who can reliably hover - even in high winds - is well placed to deliver flurries untouched by many foes.

Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) isn't the only trait a zen archer should think about taking, but it's a decent choice and good at high levels.

On a separate note, I did get around to posting a guide to the zen archer, but it seems to have been buried in the boards. If people are interested in the archetype it's probably worth a look.

Finally - it's worth noting that flurry of blows is currently in a state of suspended animation ruleswise: see various other front-page threads for more details. Crucially, this affects how the zen archer (and the sohei) may work. Or may not work at all. Watch those spaces.


porpentine wrote:


Wisdom in the Flesh (Fly) isn't the only trait a zen archer should think about taking, but it's a decent choice and good at high levels.

Why for Fly?

When I planned out a Zen Archer I thought that Stealth was a nicer choice, but then I saw all those feats to play with and figured I'd make a scout as well.

-James


Stealth's a class skill already, so the trait is only getting you the difference between your Wisdom and Dex bonusses (still a decent boost).

Fly is nonclass, so - once you've bought a flight item and invest a rank - you're getting the difference between Wis and Dex, plus 3. More bang for your buck - and a hovering archer is a nice thing to be.

Stealth is a sound choice all the same. I think there's even some flavoursome mileage in going with something wacky, like Disable Device (for nonmagical traps and sabotage) or Sleight of Hand. It's only a trait, after all.


So i think i spotted something in the pathfinder srd and i need a bit of clarification.
Here's the monk entry for flurry of blows:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.

A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.

A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.

The part that i need a bit of clarification on is the sentence "He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons".
Please note that this does not state that he cannot take a flurry action involving switching between ranged and melee attacks, just that he cannot make those attacks.
So,is this a misprint? or can a monk not make a flurry of blows attack with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons?

Grand Lodge

porpentine wrote:


Stealth's a class skill already, so the trait is only getting you the difference between your Wisdom and Dex bonusses (still a decent boost).

Fly is nonclass, so - once you've bought a flight item and invest a rank - you're getting the difference between Wis and Dex, plus 3. More bang for your buck - and a hovering archer is a nice thing to be.

Stealth is a sound choice all the same. I think there's even some flavoursome mileage in going with something wacky, like Disable Device (for nonmagical traps and sabotage) or Sleight of Hand. It's only a trait, after all.

Regarding your previous Zen Archer build, is there a way you could break it down level by level?

Osirion

Joes Pizza wrote:

So i think i spotted something in the pathfinder srd and i need a bit of clarification.

Here's the monk entry for flurry of blows:

Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.

A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.

A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.

The part that i need a bit of clarification on is the sentence "He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons".
Please note that this does not state that he cannot take a flurry action involving switching between ranged and melee attacks, just that he cannot make those attacks.
So,is this a misprint? or can a monk not make a flurry of blows attack with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons?

You are correct: the Zen Archer cannot make a flurry attack with anything other than a bow.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Mercurial wrote:

Jodokai:

I'd reccomend Snake Style at 3rd and Skill Focus: Sense Motive at 5th. Best decision I possibly could have made as an archer.

If you use the immediate action to avoid a ranged attack, then you can't spend Ki next turn (i.e., to add +4 to AC, etc).

This isn't really the problem, going back and looking at the Grizzly's Fighter build, with a 32 point buy, at level 20, his AC is 35. My Zen Archer with a 20 point buy and only 15th level has a 36 AC (with a MUCH better touch AC and Flat-Footed AC). Their hitpoints are are similar (Fighter 6 per level + Favored Class, vs. 5 per level +Favored Class + Toughness) so I don't think AC will be the problem.

That said I do regret using up two feats for Snake Style. It only works for 1 attack. At this level there are very few things that only have 1 attack. My Touch Attack AC is almost as high as my full AC, so I really don't feel I get a lot out of it. Again looking back at Grizzly's build, if I were to do it again, I'd probably go with Snapshot and Improved Snapshot. 15' Threat range is pretty big.


With regard only to DPR the fighter is going to surge past everyone else pretty handily, and it begins to become apparent after level 10 or so, possibly even earlier if your DM doesn't enforce cover rules properly.

Weapon training is the source of that. Also, if all you care about is DPR (and if you're playing a fighter it's really all you do) then +1 to hit is worth more than +2 to damage on all the DPR calculators I have seen, so a halfling netting +2 to hit (dex, size) in exchange for a mere -1 to damage (-2 str) is an overwhelming deal and you will be closer to auto hitting later on, but more importantly you're increasing your chances of your last attacks landing.

EDIT: Jodokai, did you post your build somewhere? I may have missed it but I'd like to see it.


Lastoth wrote:
Jodokai, did you post your build somewhere? I may have missed it but I'd like to see it.

I'll do it when I get home, but if you look at page 1 my build is almost exactly like porpentine's. I've traded out a few feats here and there, no major differences.

EDIT: The only major difference is that I didn't tank CHA or INT as much (10 INT, 8 CHA) so my STR is only 12/16 (with magic items).


One little advantage that the fighter gets is the pin down feat. I now get an API to prevent 5ft movement or withdraw. Other than that if I get rights, my HP is another + th, since you didn't include it in. now that pi look at it, i'm wasting 3 feats just to be able to shoot around corners or the like. For Azoth it could be good, but i'm better off getting toughness, quickdraw, far shot (or pinpoint targeting), and master alchemist.

Reason for mater alchemist is after I spent some time looking up the special stores from elves of golarion, they need craft alchemy and to do it at a DC of 25 sometimes, so they can craft their own arrows. ( thread that discuses it a bit -- http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5hiu?Craft-Alchemy-arrows )

I would take out 3 ranks from stealth, and using the other 2 skill points that were left over, use them to get the feat. Now arrow production for most of my arrows is 10x faster than it was before.
.......................

I noticed the item, hat of disguise, greater. I can either be medium our small humanoid to gain some benefits. After spending some time going through races, picking them out for best use, the overall best races to be are: medium- sasquatch, small- chary-la. Both have 30' movement, both have scent (reason your changing into Turk), low-light vision , darkvision. Now you just fire a pheromone arrow first in your volley at the enemy, and sure to event, you'll get a +2 atk/+2 dmg each. This is great for Amy archer class, zen archer or fighter archer, doesn't matter.


Interesting, those might be 25 point builds. I ended up with a dwarf with 12/14/12/10/20/5 after racials obviously. My feat at 1st was steel soul because... well... awesome.

I'm going for monkey style at 5th because this is for Skull & Shackles, so I expect there to be some falling down due to the ship conditions. At 7th I will probably snag extra ki and 9th is a toss up between target of opportunity and cluster shots.


Grizzly the Archer wrote:
One little advantage that the fighter gets is the pin down feat. I now get an API to prevent 5ft movement or withdraw.

The advantage with Zen Archer is that he has a 90 Speed and 1600' of Diminsion Door, meaning nothing is going to get away anyway, and he didn't waste a feat.

Grizzly the Archer wrote:
Other than that if I get rights, my HP is another + th, since you didn't include it in. now that pi look at it, i'm wasting 3 feats just to be able to shoot around corners or the like. For Azoth it could be good, but i'm better off getting toughness, quickdraw, far shot (or pinpoint targeting), and master alchemist.

See that's what I'm tellin' ya, a Zen Archer doesn't have to make that trade, they can shoot around corners (with Ki) without a single feat.

I didn't add toughness beause I wasn't sure you were going to add it in. You also spent a lot in magic gear. I stopped at your headband of wisdom and was at around 850k. Everything after that is over the limit by level chart.

The other problem is that you have about 1000 arrows and space for 120 of them. Efficient Quiver only holds 60, maybe 66 if you put arrows in the Javelin slots.

The fighter may hit more often, but I think the monk is more survivable, and more veritile. You say that a fighter has more choices in their feats, but if you look at what you did, you choose feats to duplicate abilities that a Zen Archer has. What puts the fighter over the top isn't the feat selection, it's the abilities they get by virtue of being a fighter. It's the Expert Weapon, and Improved Specializations. In terms of feats and abilities they match up, at that point it's a choice: Do you want to hit more, and therefore do more consistant damage or do you want to do less damage, but have more "side" abilities? That's really the difference between the two.


Hot dam, there are some nice builds here.


I might have listed 1000 arrows, that doesn't mean that they are all in quivers. I mean really, who expects that? 120 will be in quiver, the rest in handy haversack and bag of holding, and just replenish as needed.

Is dimension door a swift? AS In, you use a swift to use it, then you get a full attack? If so, that right there makes the zen archer a very nice archer.

Personally, I would've preffered playing an archer in my group, but my gm HATES monks, with a passion. Only one player really plays them, and even then he tends to cheat the numbers or abilities he gets, to make it worse for me to do a zen archer.

The zen archer is quite badass, just wanted to point out though that a fighter archer can also be a good option, since they get disarm sunder trip and bullish at range.

Also, if I were to use wbl, then yes i'm over, in which case I'd lower the number on his arrows and other items to bring it back south. I only listed what my character WOULD have at 20th lvl, from adventuring. (in which case he'd have a fly magic item on him, and cloak of displacement). Either way, both the fighter and zen archer are great archers as is. The ranger archer could be good too, by using their mount to possibly do overrun + imp. Snap shot = lots of AoO's.


Dimension Door for a monk is a Move Action that ends your turn. If you take Dimensional Agility, it's just a Move Action. I was looking at that line, and if I were a melee monk, I would take it in a heart beat, but for ranged it's not worth it.


porpentine wrote:

The best archer, at almost any level you care to mention, is the zen archer.

15th level isn't particularly favourable, but Ravingdork posts a solid fighter archer at that level way up above (Dayer) - and presents him beautifully too - so here's a zen archer at that level for direct comparison. Note that Lyu is built with 20pb, Dayer with (as far as I can tell) 26pb.

Name: Lyu. Race: Human. Class/Level: Qinggong Zen Monk 15. Favoured Bonus: H∞. Age: 30. Height: 5’. Weight: 130lbs.
Pointbuy: 14/14/14/7/17/7 = 20

Can anyone point out to me how this archer Porpentine showed us is able to use Stunning Fist attacks with a bow?


Sylvanite wrote:


Here's Ek the Archer at level 11. It's a good level for him as he gets some feats and 5th level spells (Overland Flight and Teleport are BIG spells in terms of out of combat versatility, team benefit, and also...flying all day = win for a good archer unless all you do is play in ten foot tall corridors).

Keep in mind this is done at 15 point buy (just to avoid having to do it later for the negative nancys out there). He gets better with more points as he can be somewhat MAD.

As I didn't have the time to fully calculate it and review the spells needed to make it work:

Is there any reason that would prevent a fighter 1 / witch 5/ EK 5 from working in a similar way or at least be viable?


Gr'Rakt wrote:
Can anyone point out to me how this archer Porpentine showed us is able to use Stunning Fist attacks with a bow?

Gr'Rakt, apologies for not getting back to your private message.

Lyu gains stunning fist arrows at 17th level, courtesy of the zen archer class ability, Ki Focus Bow. As laid out in this thread, he doesn't have it at 15th - but he will soon, and it's a stonking ability when he finally gets it.

I'll also repeat for Gr'Rakt and anyone else who sent me a private message, that I did post a full zen archer guide on these boards. It's around here somewhere, though I'm afraid you might have to dig for it.


porpentine wrote:
Gr'Rakt wrote:
Can anyone point out to me how this archer Porpentine showed us is able to use Stunning Fist attacks with a bow?

Gr'Rakt, apologies for not getting back to your private message.

Lyu gains stunning fist arrows at 17th level, courtesy of the zen archer class ability, Ki Focus Bow. As laid out in this thread, he doesn't have it at 15th - but he will soon, and it's a stonking ability when he finally gets it.

I'll also repeat for Gr'Rakt and anyone else who sent me a private message, that I did post a full zen archer guide on these boards. It's around here somewhere, though I'm afraid you might have to dig for it.

Zen archers do not get stunning fist in the first place, so Ki Weapon is kind of pointless.

Also if they take it as a feat they do not get the heap of extra times a day as if they got it as a class ability or the added special effects added on later.


Sleet Storm wrote:

Myrmidarch archer =better than the sohei

Weapon Training ,Fighter Feats,Ranged spellstrike,Arcane Weapon enchantments and hasted assault ....the best archer

while i dont think they're the best personally, they make very good gunners too.

Lightbulb wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:


Well sometimes stuff gets overseen.It happens frequently.The myrmidarch is about using ranged weapons and the myrmidarch description says "the myrmidarch seeks supremacy with blade, BOW, and armor".Obvius stuff is obvious and you can´t talk that away by citing the mighty RAW,because you know what....RAW is incomplete sometimes and you always need to make some interpretation.

Then we are not having a real disagreement.

Take another example:

Sohei monk is proficient with Light Armour but cannot Flurry when wearing it. Does this mean the Sohei can automatically Flurry with Armour? If not then he has a class feature he cannot use.

or how the titan mauler is supposed to wield bigger weapons, but cant.

Qadira

Heres a (quick) partial build, 25 pt, Zen Archer 11th Goblin
Ra RP LA Items
S 14 -12 10 14
W 14 -14 14 14
I 12 -12 12 12
D 18 -22 24 26 28
C 10 -10 10 10
Ch 7 - 5 5 5

Bab 8/3 Fob 9/9/4/4/-1
CMB 15 Init +12
CMD 29

Size Tiny (Permanent Reduce Person) +2 AC +2 Atk

To Hit: +2 Size, +8 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus +1 PB +4 Bow +2 RA
Dam: +2 WS, +4 Bow +2 St
Damage (bow) Arrows return to small size on shooting: d6
Damage (bow, ki arrows) d10

27/27/22/22/17 d10+8 + all the usual suspects

Feats
1: Flurry, Perfect Strike, Point Blank Shot
2: Weapon Focus Bow Precise Shot
3: Point Blank Master, Reckless Aim
4: Ki Pool
5: Ki Arrows Far Shot
6: Weapon Specialization Combat Reflexes
7: Improved Init
8:
9: Reflexive shot Hammer the gap
10: Improved Crit
11: Trick Shot, Clustered shot

Gear: Monks Robes, +4 Dex/Str belt, +4 Bow, Permanent Reduce Person.
This is a few thousand over WBL.

This build uses a couple of tricks:
a). Arrows return to size after leaving a reduced bow. So you are getting a plus to hit.
b). Ki arrows allows us to burn ki to do unarmed strike damage
c). Monks robes increase unarmed strike damage
d). Tiny creatures use dex not strength on CMB
e). Ability to ignore concealment and cover, fire around corners.


porpentine wrote:
Gr'Rakt wrote:
Can anyone point out to me how this archer Porpentine showed us is able to use Stunning Fist attacks with a bow?

Gr'Rakt, apologies for not getting back to your private message.

Lyu gains stunning fist arrows at 17th level, courtesy of the zen archer class ability, Ki Focus Bow. As laid out in this thread, he doesn't have it at 15th - but he will soon, and it's a stonking ability when he finally gets it.

I'll also repeat for Gr'Rakt and anyone else who sent me a private message, that I did post a full zen archer guide on these boards. It's around here somewhere, though I'm afraid you might have to dig for it.

It's not a problem, porpentine. Thanks for addressing it for me! It makes complete sense now. Kudos. Sadly, the campaigns I'm involved in usually come to an end around 14-15th level. :(


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Fighter Archer - Best DPS archer in the game. No one out damages him but he is a bit of a one trick pony and like any other Fighter, has inherent weaknesses.
Ranger Archer - Is a lot more versatile with better saves and a better skill list. He can get good archer feats earlier through the archer tree without pre-reqs which can make him a viable switch hitter.
Zen Archer - The Zen Archer is the most mobile and has the best defenses with early access to key archer feats.

All of the archers are awesome and depending on if you want to be a rank and file military archer, a woodland hunter or a spiritual archer it comes down to flavor, really.

Personally, I like Flurry of Blows with my Zen Archer's Longbow.


Have to agree with Kyle.

Fighter archer is going to give you the best DPR (well most consistently high DPR)

Ranger is going to give you decent damage until you come up against a favored enemy (or get the spell Instant Enemy). So a bit less damage with better spike damage at later levels.

Zen Archer has decent damage without the spike but has better mobility.

Paladin archers with better defense and they are all about the spike damage.

Inquisitor Archers are tough to make... you really need some Zen Archer to make them work. But they can do bring the pain like a ranger or paladin.


Would a single level dip into some arcane class like magus or arcane duellist bard (at least they can wear light armor and cast) to get some magic options hurt a fighter's DPR very much?
Both lose one point of BAB. But the Magus gets Arcane pool and the bard gets arcane strike to offset this a little.

And which archetype do you use for the fighter? Classic, archer or weapon master?


Anyone considered making a Barbarian Archer, using the Titan Mauler archetype? There's something to be said for wielding a colossal bow in combat (for that matter, would Gravity Bow still increase the damage beyond colossal?)I know going Barbarian makes you light on feats, but you can still get the essential ones, and 7 attacks a round with a colossal weapon and the power of barbarian rage behind it has to make up for quite a bit. For that matter, some of the rage powers are significant as well. Reckless Abandon seems far less Reckless when you're raging at the back of the party, peppering them with arrows.


Overcast wrote:
Anyone considered making a Barbarian Archer, using the Titan Mauler archetype? There's something to be said for wielding a colossal bow in combat (for that matter, would Gravity Bow still increase the damage beyond colossal?)I know going Barbarian makes you light on feats, but you can still get the essential ones, and 7 attacks a round with a colossal weapon and the power of barbarian rage behind it has to make up for quite a bit. For that matter, some of the rage powers are significant as well. Reckless Abandon seems far less Reckless when you're raging at the back of the party, peppering them with arrows.

Id rather take Urban Barbarian. You can have your rage affect Dexterity instead of Str (untill you get the right enchant on your composite bow allowing for variable str)

Im not sure if the two stack. Honestly though the increased damage would more then likely be less then that of a straight fighter... but could be fun to RP. He would certainly have more utility then an archer fighter.

Possibly a good Switch Hiter build.


On the topic of Zen Archer:

What is the point of them getting Ki Focus as a class feature for their weapon when they do not get stunning fist or it's variants to use it with?

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