What if sundering spells was just a game mechanic? As in, no need to be AM BARBARIAN, part of the sunder mechanic simply includes sundering spells.
I haven't thought this out really, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement. Perhaps it would require a magic weapon, or a feat. I'm not sure. The bigger question is, would this make magic types unplayable? Or would spells simply become more balanced with the extraordinary? Is there a good way to implement this, or is it just a bad idea?
Just throwing out a random thought I had just now while reading the forums. Maybe you all can make something of it.
It would make area of effect spells near useless to take as spells except spells that have aftereffects.
The idea of slicing through incoming spells with your sword is totally rad.
It would make area of effect spells near useless to take as spells except spells that have aftereffects.
Okay throwing out some ideas:
Sooooo, it likely wouldn't be implemented as something you could do every round at no cost. Maybe a full-round action, or limit per combat? As well, it would probably need to be something that requires a little building towards to be spectacular at, like any other combat maneuver.
Maybe the rounds the effect lasts could be represented as hp, as opposed to being a straight DC to overcome. Like, the hp for one round is n*spell level, and the duration you reduce a spell by is determined by the damage you do with the sunder. Depending on n, such a system could mean more partial spell sunders and less sword dispelling. If the spell goes by a different increment per level (minutes per level, hours per level, etc), the round hp would be the hp for the appropriate increment instead. Basically, I'm thinking a system more focused on reducing duration rather than dispelling.
As for slicing incoming spells hmmm... a similar system to above could work, except it should probably take an attack of opportunity, and if there's no duration it goes by damage dice rather than rounds. You would have to choose to fail your save, and maybe recognize that a spell is being cast at you (spellcraft?). Or perhaps just a readied action?
/end idea vomit
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I would personally prefer that Spell Sunder remain a class ability for the barbarian and other anti-caster/anti-magic builds (probably via Archetypes). If another class wants to do this, I believe they should have to invest some amount of time as an anti-magic build to get to it.
In other words, if you want this I think you should have to take class levels to show your dedication to the anti-magic approach. It should not be a simple technique for a variety of reasons (balance and cool-factor among them).
I would personally prefer that Spell Sunder remain a class ability for the barbarian and other anti-caster/anti-magic builds (probably via Archetypes). If another class wants to do this, I believe they should have to invest some amount of time as an anti-magic build to get to it.
In other words, if you want this I think you should have to take class levels to show your dedication to the anti-magic approach. It should not be a simple technique for a variety of reasons (balance and cool-factor among them).
I dunno, I think you're sort of taking for granted that sundering, by itself, is not a simple technique. It's not like anyone with a sword in their hand can just walk around and effectively destroy any weapons and armor. The introduction of the mechanic as standard would somewhat change the entire setting though, but I don't see a problem with that.
I'd like to know exactly what your balance issue is. It could help in making this a more balanced mechanic. If you think it is just something that is only functional as a feature of the barbarian class, why? I think it is something that could be implemented universally without making spells useless or relegating them to irrelevancy, but that's only because I know that it is something that at least functions for the barbarian.
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Mostly, it seems like an uber specialized technique to me. You're essentially becoming capable of grabbing magic with your bare hands and ripping it apart with sheer brute force. That CAN'T be an easy thing to do.
At best I can see it being put near the end of some anti-caster feat line (at earliest the 3rd feat in), with Improved Sunder as a pre-requisite, and with that it might be a once or twice per day thing (or maybe "int mod/day" or some such).
Mostly, it seems like an uber specialized technique to me. You're essentially becoming capable of grabbing magic with your bare hands and ripping it apart with sheer brute force. That CAN'T be an easy thing to do.
At best I can see it being put near the end of some anti-caster feat line (at earliest the 3rd feat in), with Improved Sunder as a pre-requisite, and with that it might be a once or twice per day thing (or maybe "int mod/day" or some such).
Uhhhhh I didn't think I was suggesting that sort of description. I was more envisioning a practiced fighter who knows just where to place his blade against a magical wall to make it rupture, or a monk taking out the sword made of force with a well placed punch. You know, sort of like how I envision either sundering weapons or armor.
I mean, the way you're making it sound, that's not how sundering works: The fighter grabs the other guys breast plate and rips through it like tin foil. Put that way, even normal sundering sounds ridiculous.
I did already suggest that it could be a feat, and there are already anti-magic feats like the Disruptive line. Maybe spell-sundering could still be available at baseline but extremely difficult (to the point where untrained, mid level fighters will only be sundering lower level spells), with the spell sundering feat line making it more generally usable.
You're still not explaining your balance issue clearly though, so it's hard to say if this is how a mechanic like this would need to go. It is pretty commonly accepted that magic is extremely powerful, but you seem to be afraid that with out a lot of requirements, a ubiquitously available spell sunder would neuter magic to the point of ruining balance. Am I interpreting you right?
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Mostly, it seems like an uber specialized technique to me. You're essentially becoming capable of grabbing magic with your bare hands and ripping it apart with sheer brute force. That CAN'T be an easy thing to do.
At best I can see it being put near the end of some anti-caster feat line (at earliest the 3rd feat in), with Improved Sunder as a pre-requisite, and with that it might be a once or twice per day thing (or maybe "int mod/day" or some such).
Uhhhhh I didn't think I was suggesting that sort of description. I was more envisioning a practiced fighter who knows just where to place his blade against a magical wall to make it rupture, or a monk taking out the sword made of force with a well placed punch. You know, sort of like how I envision either sundering weapons or armor.
I mean, the way you're making it sound, that's not how sundering works: The fighter grabs the other guys breast plate and rips through it like tin foil. Put that way, even normal sundering sounds ridiculous.
I did already suggest that it could be a feat, and there are already anti-magic feats like the Disruptive line. Maybe spell-sundering could still be available at baseline but extremely difficult (to the point where untrained, mid level fighters will only be sundering lower level spells), with the spell sundering feat line making it more generally usable.
You're still not explaining your balance issue clearly though, so it's hard to say if this is how a mechanic like this would need to go. It is pretty commonly accepted that magic is extremely powerful, but you seem to be afraid that with out a lot of requirements, a ubiquitously available spell sunder would neuter magic to the point of ruining balance. Am I interpreting you right?
Spell sunder is NOT normal sunder. It uses the sunder mechanic, but it is not normal sunder. It does not deal HP damage, it dispels (or suppresses) the spell.
If what you're looking for is the ability to sunder a wall of force via HP damage, then I have good news: You already can (and sans-feat too!). It has a described HP value and a described hardness (specifically hardness 30 and 20HP/caster level). Have at. If you can do enough damage, you can break it.
What the AM BARBARIAN has is different. He grabs the magic itself and says "NOPE! You're mine!" and rips it to shreds. He doesn't attack the force, he attacks the magic that sustains it and forces it asunder. He can do this with a weapon as well, but the extremely fun thing is that he can just grab it with his bare hand if he cares to. The AM BARBARIAN is not truly attacking anything physically, he's using his weaponry skill to rip apart magic itself.
I'm pretty sure what you're asking for is from paragraph 2 (attack, deal HP damage, eventually break). Please do not confuse this with what Spell Sunder does. If you think that attacking a wall of force is too hard, then by all means make a "deal more HP damage versus spells" feat or something. That doesn't step on Spell Sunder's toes, because that's not what the ability does.
Well, I don't allow spell sunder in the first place so . . . NO!
Master Arminas
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S-U-N-D-E-R.
NOT HARD.
Spell sunder is NOT normal sunder. It uses the sunder mechanic, but it is not normal sunder. It does not deal HP damage, it dispels (or suppresses) the spell.
If what you're looking for is the ability to sunder a wall of force via HP damage, then I have good news: You already can (and sans-feat too!). It has a described HP value and a described hardness (specifically hardness 30 and 20HP/caster level). Have at. If you can do enough damage, you can break it.
What the AM BARBARIAN has is different. He grabs the magic itself and says "NOPE! You're mine!" and rips it to shreds. He doesn't attack the force, he attacks the magic that sustains it and forces it asunder. He can do this with a weapon as well, but the extremely fun thing is that he can just grab it with his bare hand if he cares to. The AM BARBARIAN is not truly attacking anything physically, he's using his weaponry skill to rip apart magic itself.
I'm pretty sure what you're asking for is from paragraph 2 (attack, deal HP damage, eventually break). Please do not confuse this with what Spell Sunder does. If you think that attacking a wall of force is too hard, then by all means make a "deal more HP damage versus spells" feat or something. That doesn't step on Spell Sunder's toes, because that's not what the ability does.
Obviously spell sunder is different from regular sunder. I'm just saying that when you put try to paint it as some ridiculous "bare hands gripping spells and ripping them apart" thing, you are making the concept seem much more strange than it actually is. I'm saying that it needn't be envisioned in such a fantastically cartoonish way, and that the concept itself is not inherently silly (IMO).
I understand how spell sunder, the barbarian rage power, works. That's why I said, "as opposed to being a straight DC check". And I understand that a wall of force can be broken, that was probably not the best example (I had something like a wall of fire in mind).
I'm not trying to avoid stepping on the rage power "spell sunder"'s toes. The whole point of this thread is to question if a mechanic where the sunder mechanic can inherently be used to disrupt spells (rather than be limited to a barbarian power) would be workable. I'm not saying that everyone should just get that rage power for free minus the rage. I'm asking about what people think of a similar, generalized mechanic, more tailored to general use. Not as in (as Atarlost implied I was suggesting) the ability to perform a sunder check against an easily beaten DC every round, as the rage power would be if it were once per round rather than once per rage. Jesus, this thread would be idiotic if I were saying it would be interesting to just copy/paste the barbarian rage power into the sunder section of the rules. There's no way that would work.
I mean the concept of being able to sunder spells. Not exactly as the rage power spell sunder, but drawing from that to create something similar that would be more balanced as a general mechanic that could be done (although with difficulty without specialization) by anyone with the capability to sunder things. I mean, I thought this was obvious from how I was suggesting all of the ways in which the rage power's mechanics could be altered to meet this end.
The subtext here, that I was trying to avoid harping on because I am not of a solid stance on the alleged issue, is that the (this is probably obscene language around here) caster-martial disparity could be something to take into account, though opinions on that disparity - or lack thereof - vary.
I think what Stabb meant, is that unlike a normal sunder, the spell sunder simply passes his CMB check, and dispels an effect.
Unlike a spellcaster, he can mix a very large martial damage output, and then dispel an effect. As there's no weapon requirement, or damage, he can do so unarmed, effectively, visually ripping off the magical effect.
Now, closest I can think of, is Discovery for Alchemist, allowing to change the bomb damage into a targeted Dispel.
Can't say though I wanna give fighters, rogues, ninjas or gunslingers easy dispel access.
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I think what Stabb meant, is that unlike a normal sunder, the spell sunder simply passes his CMB check, and dispels an effect.
Unlike a spellcaster, he can mix a very large martial damage output, and then dispel an effect. As there's no weapon requirement, or damage, he can do so unarmed, effectively, visually ripping off the magical effect.
Now, closest I can think of, is Discovery for Alchemist, allowing to change the bomb damage into a targeted Dispel.
Can't say though I wanna give fighters, rogues, ninjas or gunslingers easy dispel access.
Basically this.
The only way I can see allowing something similar to Spell Sunder in a context outside of an anti-caster class or archetype is as a later member of a related anti-magic feat line. It should take no fewer than 3 anti-magic feats that come before it to represent how specialized such an ability would be. (This is partly because spell sunder is itself the third in a sequence for Barbarian, and thus would be equivalent to 3 feats even if you already had rage.)
The closest thing, featwise, would be fighter only, as a 3rd or 4th installment in their anti caster feats such as;
Disruptive -> Spellbreaker -> Spell Sunder?
That would make it somewhat akin to the monks teleporting chain of feats. Though one would still have to slap on a daily limit, much like rage or like the limit on monks abundant step ability.
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There is already a similar feat. I could see a two-feat progression to do a less limited version of it, or even changing it to "pick one weapon" instead of being shield-only.
Allowing you to deflect it back would most certainly be its own feat, as that is a very powerful ability. Deflecting it randomly would not be, since it's just as likely to be a bad thing as a good thing.
Fluffwise, I get the idea.
Mechanically, it sounds very much like an easier way to bypass needing rolling saves.
I suppose you could adapt the Ray Shield feat that Stabbitty linked and make it work with flat, bladed weapons such as swords. Anything else would almost have to be a new chain of feats or a specific spellbreaker archetype.
