Question Re: Janni Tempest (Style Feat)

[Daryl MacLeod]

The feat description reads;

Quote:

Janni Tempest (Combat)

Your gale of attacks easily throws your opponents off balance.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Janni Style, Acrobatics 5 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.

Benefit: While you are using the Janni Style feat, whenever you make an unarmed attack and hit an opponent, you gain a +4 bonus on checks made to bull rush or trip that opponent, as long as the combat manoeuvre is your next attack by the end of your turn. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the target of the manoeuvre.

Is there a reason why this feat doesn’t grant a bonus to 'Overrun' the opponent? I think it would work both thematically and mechanically with what they got going on here...

I cannot think of why it would be unbalancing? Is there another style feat chain that grants bonuses to the Overrun manoeuvre? Our group is trying to play as close to the RAW as possible. Some concessions have been made, but I don’t want to bother asking for a house rule if it’s unbalancing.

[LoreKeeper]

I suspect there is primarily a flavor reason for not including overrun - in terms of balance "overrun" achieves two things that aren't readily granted by bullrush/trip: you can reposition yourself *and* gain a trip effect if you roll particularly well.

Not a style-feat chain, but a barbarian can pick from several overrun related rage powers. Possibly worth investigating for you.

[mplindustries]

Since you want to do it, it's probably unbalancing for whatever reason it is that you want the Overrun bonus.

But regardless, I honestly don't see how Overrun fits thematically at all with your attacks whipping wind at people. A blast of wind can help push someone back or shove someone over--how does it help you step on someone?

[gg405]

More importantly, how can you do a bull rush at all?

Quote:

While you are using the Janni Style feat, whenever you make an unarmed attack and hit an opponent, you gain a +4 bonus on checks made to bull rush or trip that opponent, as long as the combat manoeuvre is your next attack by the end of your turn.

The bull rush must be attempted in the same turn that you hit a target with an unarmed strike.

Quote:

A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows.

But notice that you cannot substitute bull rush for one of your flurry attacks.

And, in general, bull rush is an action of its own, not an "in place of attack" action.

Quote:

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent in place of a melee attack.

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.

but...

Quote:

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.

Also, to the OP's question, Overrun is also a maneuver that replaces a standard action, like bull rush, so could not be made "by the end of the turn" in any turn where a normal attack had already taken place, as part of a full-round action (in order to get another attack "before the end of your turn").

[Cult of Vorg]

AoO, maneuver master, quick bull rush, shield slam, spinning throw.. all ways to get an unarmed attack followed by a bull rush in the same turn..

[Imbicatus]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

AoO, maneuver master, quick bull rush, shield slam, spinning throw.. all ways to get an unarmed attack followed by a bull rush in the same turn..

These work, but I doubt the author was aware of them. there are a lot of mistake made in the style feats. Boar Style for example.

[gg405]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

AoO, maneuver master, quick bull rush, shield slam, spinning throw.. all ways to get an unarmed attack followed by a bull rush in the same turn..

AoO: Seems like it would be hard/rare to get an AoO that is both:

1. "your next attack"
2. "by the end of your turn"

I can't remember getting an AoO during my turn, in the middle of my attacks, though certainly monks have lots of ways to get weird combos going. Typically, during your turn you are the one giving AoO's to people, not getting them. Seems like a super hard setup, if it can be done at all.

I don't think Shield Slam works, either:

Quote:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack

Janni only procs off unarmed strike, which a shield bash is not. If you follow an unarmed attack with a shield bash, then the bull rush is not "your next attack", the shield bash was - and again, the bonus doesn't apply.

Spinning throw doesn't work:

Quote:

On a successful unarmed trip combat maneuver against an opponent your size or smaller, you can spend a swift action to attempt a bull rush combat maneuver against that opponent.

You would make an unarmed attack with janni style, then your next attack would have to be the trip maneuver, at which point the bonus to bull rush would be gone, because the janni bonus only applies "as long as the combat manoeuvre is your next attack". - unless of course tripping an opponent counts as "an unarmed attack". Not really sure there.

Quick Bull Rush doesn't work:

Quote:

On your turn, you can perform a single bull rush combat maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the bull rush

You had to use your highest attack bonus attack already to "proc" the janni style bonus. So you can't use it to also make a bull rush "before the end of your turn".

Maneuver Master certainly works, but it seems odd that they would write a style feat to only benefit a specific archetype.

Quote:

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.

I agree with Imbicatus. I believe these items are poorly written/tested.