Before I reveal it, I would like to present my proof
so as not to appear as a random guess. It may take a couple
of posts, so please be patient with me.
Dragon 359 Hints:
Not a known god or outsider within recent reckoning: (Not appear in
any previous product of Greyhawk.)
Uncle is "immortal"(as per his description Y's servants, he desires
human sacrifice and eternal servitude, both are mentioned in this article.)
ritual....requires manipulating space and time to acheive: (is a primal power not released on Greyhawk)
the summoning of "Y" is always preceded by the calling forth of his unnamed servant, who always inhabits an immortal body to assist the servant's of Y in colpleting the ritual:
Proof 1: the letter Translated
this is the letter #2 which I believe goes like this:
Uncle has fallen! We have interred him but the rejuvination will not last. The formula guards... Curse the oaf Vex ... greed! (I believe Vex was trying to commit incest with Elluvia, also he tries to buy her attention with a blue pearl in Room 105 Statuary Level Statue Set B)
Helping Elluvia to summon Malcanthet. I hope HER... claws rent him.
They are upon us again, a nightmare battle endless. I go and summon
the ...wings to fight... The Abyss... and the hordes......unfathomable numbers pouring forth.
Afleban fell defending the Star... Chamber, though his body wasn't seen no time to investigate. (See scene under Orcus portrait.)
CURSE VEXUS!! The staff is lost... us. (I believe this staff is referred to in the Shadow Lords portrait.)
Elluvia ...... (gave? sacrificed?) to her mistress. H... message was sent by a mere .... The inept and ...ish coward, may Y abosrb him like he did Dalt!!! (Dalt contains the unnamed servant that helps summon Y, see the differece in Dalt between the first seen in the Fraz-Urb'luu portrait and Dalt's own portrait on pp 75-77. The scenes under Fraz-Urb'luu appear as Dalt is being sent outside space and time by Elluvia with the help of Fraz-Urb'luu, just my interpretation. I also point to a note in room 12 of the Greater Halls: Pray that the boy opens the way so HE may come. My niece is not always the trust worthy sort. Afelbain should follow her to make sure the plan is forwarded without error. Also, the Elders in the same note give me the impression of the Elder Gods.)
We are separated by a magical seal... Impossible!! Another has entered who we do not know.
I will leave upon the current (which I think is what they call the time stream). They will have some surprised I left for ... Malcanthet other ... ... they do not understand... we will return! Death to US and our enemies. I commit these sentences to obilvion.
Elder is known as a planeswalker.
The Silver Key of Portals is given to Mordenkainen by Dalt. This is a clue.
The Maure's are insane, this is commonplace under worshippers of Y.
And now for the payoff.....
Go read the entry of Yog-Sothoth under Wikipedia and see the connections between the nicknames and descriptions and what I have pointed out in the magazines.
On a side note, the letter #1 in Berstock workshop: the ILL I believe is a mention of Iggwilv, but I have absolutely no proof to back that up, other than I think she has investigated or is mentioned in 3 1st edition modules as having investigated temples, like the lost temple of Tharzidun and others.
I agree about Troll Lord Castle Zagyg's Castle being
a dud. I was really looking forward to that at
one time. I sincerely hope that hard copy exists
of all these classical works exist, maybe somebody with
an axe to grind against the establishment will release all
these goodies to us. The three letters I hate most in
the english language are "NDA", and my name is impossible
to spell without them.
Tharzidun is established in Greyhawk canon
as an diety that has existed in the world
before, and that he has been banished by all
the other gods acting in concert. Yog-Shothoth
has never made an appearence in canon Greyhawk
before. And RJK has stated in several locations
that Y has never ever been in Greyhawk universe.
Mayyybeeee hinted at, but never named.
In the adventures published of Maure Castle,
we have seen no inverted pyramids, no purple/
red colored alters, no symbols of the
Elder Elemental God, no brown robes, no spirals,
nothing that has been established before in
Greyhawk products that is a link to Tharzidun.
Plus look above at some of the clues: The Silver
Key of Dalt and the correlation with Yog-Shothoth's
story "Through the Silver Gate". Outside space and
time, that's Yog-Shothoth. I think that even RJK has
denied that Tharzidun is it.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The reasoning here holds up well, my only hesitancy in accepting it completely comes from the following I lifted from another thread:
Generic Villain wrote:
Yup, my guess is Tharizdun. I figure I may as well go on with my little theory now
So why T? I think I remember reading a post by Rob mentioning that Tharizdun might have a role in Maure Castle. And really, as the Maures are a bunch of psychopaths anyway, who better to be their patron than the King Psychopath?
**Yes, and psychopaths of the cosmic variety--they had far wandering interests.** (Rob's Reply)
Tharizdun's symbol is described as "A black triangle with an inverted yellow Y inscribed within". A "Y" you say? Maybe like the "Y" that all those wizards seem so interested in? I've always seen T's symbol as that chaotic swirly thing, but I guess that's actually the Elder Elemental Eye's symbol (which makes sense, as the EEE is Tharizdun's less-crazy alter ego).
Tharizdun is trapped in a prison demiplane. It's been pretty well established that he isn't going anywhere without some serious help. So who better to help bust him out than Dalt, "The Opener of Ways"? The kid is a divine lockpick.
As I recall though, Dalt is a neutral god. He'd never willingly unleash something as dangerous and evil as T. So if the Maures were to secure his aid, they'd have to deceive him. Hmmm... who do we know that likes to deceive? Here's a hint: he's a 15-foot-tall blue ape demon lord with wings.
Assuming I'm right, here's my interpretation of the four visions the characters see when touching Fraz's portrait:
1: Dalt arriving at the behest of the Maures.
2: Elluvia (the tall woman) is seducing Dalt into doing the Maure's will.
3: Dalt is preparing to enter T's prison and free him.
4: Elluvia is not Elluvia at all. Or rather, she had been possessed by Fraz-Urb'luu for the purpose of tricking Dalt.
**Perhaps the shadow rising from her**
For all their planning though, the Maures obviously failed. The way I see it, after realizing that her supposed allies allowed a demon lord to possess her, Eluvia became understandable angry. And there's a good chance that the Maures would just dispose of her when she had served her purpose, as she was always a sheep anyway.
**Not bad, you should be writing mysteries yourself. :)**
Whilst Rob doesn't explicitly confirm Tharizdun as being Y, one can imply it from his responses.
There was also this snippet from another thread:
Greg said: "...I plan to have them run through MC looking for long-lost lore on Tharizdun."
That's a good placement, and for reasons now that I will not reveal... :)
Mind you, after all of that, I like the idea of Yog Sothoth being Y - Even bigger and creepier than Tharizdun!
Your wish is just a bit forestalled, but granted!! ;)
Althen, all I will say is that you have come the closest of all in your detective work regarding who or what Y is. Let me ask: Though it is fun to take this route of surmise, would it be as just for me to finally admit to it being so as you state? Is not the story kept alive in even its death throe (as it has been for many years now) even with these tidbits still dangling and enticing you? That MC has become an RPG archeological relic is for certain. All that is left is excavation of what i wrote, and in many cases these things must fail to coincide with each and every separate interpretation as all such history, left to guesswork and scientific inquiry, does. That is the price of partial history pieced together that archeologists seem willing to pay.
Not that I am an entombed king-- I speak and still live. I just have little time left to me to expand on such a piece of EPIC proportions--both in length and in thought due to that--nor would I conclude doing so without a commensurate audience for it or some compensation in return. Such a fatality for fans, I agree. Also think of it like this: for the artist, too, and doubly so. I vested my sweat and blood into the ordeal for it not to see fruition. Whats done is done.
The burden of an unfinished work falls upon those who would finish it (in this case) to advance it to the fandom. I could take an advisory role if that were to happen, if there was momentum among enough fans to finish the whole on their own in a concerted and serious effort. Barring this, the sands of time have won another bout with us.
Well, think about this.
Thousands and thousands of players have tried to
puzzle this out with the scant clues and writings
that we have on the subject. As it was called the
last printed Dragon: one of the great mysteries
Wouldn't you want to be the one to crack the code?
Thank you it was nice of you to come in and at least
let me know I'm close.
I don't even want 15 minutes of fame, maybe just 5.
Believe me, I understand. If I had the capital, I would
pay you. Or I would take the mantle if I had the time
and scope of imagination that true game writers have(which
I may have, just not the self esteem to assume.)
(not to mention permission of spouse, who hates DD)
I despise those in seats of power that don't understand
the genre we're involved in. We are losing the great
forebearers of our hobby, and with it all the stuff in their
head. It frankly angers me a great deal, but I have no power
over it. Sorry didn't mean to hop on the soapbox.
Have you ever talked to WoTC and asked them how much for the
rights to Maure Castle?
Yes, cracking codes, as I noted, can be fun. I hadn't noted the last issue of Drgn's reference to this--not even sure if I still have the issue handy.
Paying me to produce something that would ultimately require me to either, 1) acquire short term copyrights from WotC in order to accomplish, or, 2) barring that, would require that I change all of the names, place names, etc,. etc and in which much of the already contributed creative matter would have to be rewritten (magic, monsters, etc)--well, neither is going to happen for apparent reasons. If WotC had been interested they would have contacted me, of course. And I cringe at the thought of dealing with their legal dept over one-time rights which would include using it as a TMed Greyhawk product. It would be a very short exchange, I assure you, and none too profitable at that. In writing for WoGreyhawk I knew that I was surrendering rights along the way--but just like Paizo I did not foresee the pulling of DUNGEON's license and then a redirect by WotC. It's their IP and if they are interested in doing whatever with it, it's their call, not mine. Plus, it was written for 3.5 and they're on a way different track these days, eh?
Well, you created this particular Soapbox so please take advantage of it. ;)
Sorry to hear about the wife's negativity regarding you creative pastime. I am lucky to be hooked in with an artist who values this sort of thing as it relates to so many things we both appreciate, the biggest being the sublime beauty of life and creativity in general. It helps that her father was a renowned illustrator for the Chicago Trib.
You are very welcome and thanks for spending the time to share your thoughts. Grodog informed me of your post here.
Uncle, I know this is presumptuous so don't
take it as such.
Have you chosen/groomed a torchbearer? I sort
of asked Ed Greenwood that at Candlekeep a couple
years ago and he seemed to me he had plans for
when he was no longer able to write. Do you
have an apprentice? I don't want the job, but
would like to know to look for somebody in the
@ Messy: I am glad you have enjoyed my short forays into the imaginative, Messy. Always wishing I could have offered more, but enough, as is, seems about right... ;)
@Althen, Simple questions are sometimes the toughest to return a comprehensive answer to; Yours in no exception.
It assumes quite a bit and requires me to be more introspective and demanding than these days have allowed as of recent. My concern is not so much classing others like me and then choosing from among the mounting totals of negatives and positives and thereby likening it to a store shopping experience based upon gradation. All of us are individuals, so too, each individual exercises free rein in the realm of creativity. There's no sourcing it. You can recognize it in others, and I have done that, for sure. Some come close to my philosophies on design and ethics regarding same. One in particular is Kyrinn S. Eis. But to say, even though we agree on myriad subjects between us, that I'd pass my torch to her would be presumptuous. She bears her own. The best that can be hoped for in such circumstances is that enough of these same (or close) philosophies survive to continue perpetuating them. That is becoming harder IMO due to a commercial driven need in (RPG) game design to supplant form with formula, and I have touched upon that in past articles and seminars and most recently during my long interview at the Hill Cantons Blog many months ago. I actually find RPG a backwater these days when comparing it to the innovations taking place in board game design, which is where I cut my teeth on design.
So it goes. Form vs. formula. I am about open, individualistic forms like the Original D&D we play-tested and then I later contributed to, but the industry, on the main that is, is about formula. Find someone like that and support them, that is, if you really see me as some sort of Master, which I do not. *I am* the master of my own individual form; and if you like that, then at least I have one vote out there for the latter. :)
Wow, that was far deeper than I was expecting.
I haven't kept up on your career. I didn't know
you were designing boardgames.
Sorry about switching gears, but you writing back is
Is the person introduced in Letter 1 as ILL
somebody introduces into Greyhawk lore before?
Do you know how old Iggwilv is, anyway? I think the
two questions are related, but know you won't
confirm or deny, which is fine.
Gosh I know I have more questions about Maure,
but I can't think of any of them right now.
Will you be keeping an eye out if I have more
questions in the near future?
Kings & Things was recently republished by Z-Man games and I am considering shopping MAGUS around while I am currently engaged in designing my 8th (3 others are working prototypes which I will probably never publish).
I also co-designed a working but unpublished card game copy-written in 1985 named "Word Rummy (alternate; "Word Run").
"Ill" was not related at all to old GH lore--that was in fact a send up to a character of a good friend of mine who died tragically in a car accident.
I have no idea how old Iggwilv is, but Grodog who keeps track of such minutia might help in the matter.
No doubt Grodog will inform me of threads here or elsewhere that might require my attention as I do not frequent the internet too much anymore and am officially semi-retired.
I can be coaxed out now and then to answer Q's, this depending upon mood and energy, of course. Both were + this time around... ;)
energy, and if you never have any again, then that's
A passoff mention that Xaene is from another dimension.
Can you comment?
Can you provide more detail on Lynn, the continent to the
During the cataclysm that caused the downfall, did all
the fiends come from box o' hordlings in the Chamber
What language is Slerotin's writings in?
Is Power Magic different from Epic?
Could you provide answers to what levels are
connected to what other levels/
If I may... Lynn is most probably Francois Mercela-Froideval campaign "world", FMF being a french guy who went working for TSR for a time (from memory, he contributed to Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures).
There is a comic called "Chroniques de la Lune Noire" (dark moon chronicles) about the story of Whismerhill, his main character, but I don't know if it has been translated in english.
*A passoff mention that Xaene is from another dimension.
Can you comment?*
Yes and no. X is from my World of Kalibruhn. He fled that world--which exists in another part of time and space--to the World of Greyhawk via ultra-magic he'd discovered in the Jungle of Huhm. He was slowly driven insane in the interim and now is a full-fledged madman who saw "the other side" and paid the consequences for this. His first advent in WoG is in 1973 when I constructed his story for the campaign and placed him as a new arrival on the Wild Coast; I then expanded on his madness and quest for power by shuttling him to the Great Kingdom where he became the advisor to King Ivid (Ovar). There are connections to what he found and what separate Maure Family members have found in their own searches into the arcane other-world.
*Can you provide more detail on Lynn, the continent to the
No, not much. This was to be based on the WOG map noted in the Dragon Annual (#??) and would have expanded on the Dragon Masters, but that was to be a product through Dungeon... No relation to Marcel's campaign.
*During the cataclysm that caused the downfall, did all
the fiends come from box o' hordlings in the Chamber
One of the sources. But they were not hordlings, then. The box does not relate to a fixed point and has a magical formula for redirectng what it summons and from where. This formula would have been discovered in later installments...
*What language is Slerotin's writings in?*
I imagine Ancient Suel, but your guess is as good as mine...
*Is Power Magic different from Epic?*
I have no idea, as my concepts of archetypal magic vary from those published.
*Could you provide answers to what levels are
connected to what other levels/*
No. That would have been revealed in the mapping of such which I abandoned doing when the project was canceled.
I didn't miss anything. There's been time...it's just been squandered. I've no doubt I'll be slapped down by the mods here if I antagonize you but you are dealing with one very disappointed but formerly very avid fan.
And no one is asking you to expand in epic proportions. The title of the thread is a very simple question with a very simple answer.
I am heartened to know that your decency extends to knowing, as well, what is simple for me.
This is why the human race disappoints me so. here to ere on the side of surmise once again and thus avoid the confrontation which humans are so good at arranging, especially selfish and seemingly always entitled Americans.
Let me put it bluntly: I do not "owe" you, nor anyone, the process or produce of my time, effort or thoughts.
Recognizing that this is a dead product is the only way of dealing with the disappointment. I had no part in that, so too I take no blame for it.
I have volunteered my very limited time to advise those who would forward the project as a free offering to fans, and this, considering my bias for the story--absolutely one of my best to that point and not just an ABC model super-adventure, for sure--would undoubtedly include re-wrapping my head around it and making some solid contributions as well. Barring that, I cannot devote the time and effort needed to finish a 100,000+ word design and 15 more maps and not be compensated for it. Otherwise its death stopped my thinking and doing anything for it (Outside of Warlock's Walk that I gave freely to fans).
Are you suggesting through this that you may/will start mapping the levels? If so any such commentary regarding this should be shifted to e-mail, or even a brief phone call, to set matters on a correct course from my end. I will not post such information here.
If interested, and if I understood it correctly, please contact email@example.com (the same grodog from these boards) for my email and include a link to this topic wherein I suggest you contact him to acquire my email.
Wow, that is generous. TY
Yeah, i thought I would try and develope Maure some
more myself due to being at my limit of repopulating
Myth Drannor in the Forgotten Realms. I just have
writers block there.
A phone call? My inner nerd is about to faint. I am so
Well, if you are serious about the matter, then this is the best way to coordinate. Emails are good--to a degree--but voice comms quickly expose major points and cut through the guess work immediately. EGG and I over our many years of DMing together or working on design projects rarely used written communication, even while at TSR.
There is another fellow Stuart Parr?? (a member of this Forum) from the UK. He translated the Warlock's Walk adv. to 3.5 stats and ran it at GENCON UK. Several months ago he pretty much queried me about the same thing you have. He's a great fan of MC and would want to help if he knew there was someone else involved with an equally high level of interest.
Make sure to contact Allan ("Grodog") and we will shift all discussion off-board where it belongs.
Not exactly. At first they were to be planar and WoG campaign extensions. With Greyhawk's demise as a viable product line during TSR-Days the idea was in hiatus because of little or no serious interest in promoting WoG products in any category, these in part or whole, included.
With my "revisiting" of WG5 via MC I speculated on different uses for them in the story line. Then again, these would have been "extra" special adventuring locales in keeping with the original idea and their advent would have occurred nearer to the end of the MC level run because of that.
Mr. Kuntz, is there any thought of pulling a Burlew and seeing if you could crowdsource funding for such an adventure via Kickstarter? I understand negotiating with WoTC to use World of Greyhawk material might be a stretch, but I'm sure there are a LOT of old grognards around here to make a third generation of the Fantastic Adventure viable!
If the word got out, I think you might be suprised at the level of support. Maure Castle was an awesome 3.5 adventure, after all.