Ok,
I've really been hating the initiative thing lately. I prefer people having a different initiative each round, it makes combat more dynamic, and negates the whole '*#@* I rolled a one' penalty for the entire combat.
However, I've found a separate issue. I hate the massive disparity between initiatives. Plus I find it annoying that only dex goes into initiative. Honestly, the more you are in combat, the better you should be at reacting to combat. The smarter you are, the quicker you think, and the faster you can react. So, I've been thinking of doing the following.
Initiative :
Reflex Save + INT Mod + 1d10.
This should get all my initatives somewhere between 1 and 20, rather than the 1 to 30 I have now. Yes, it's a high number still, but it's more consistent without completely negating dynamics in the flow of battle.
Alternately, I could go with RS + IM + 1d4 to shrink it down to about 1 to 15. If I did that, I'd probably just go with one initiative for the whole combat, since everyone would be acting pretty close to each other.
I'm looking for feedback on things I hadn't considered. This would help Rogues, Monks, and Wizards especially. Fighters would get better over time at initiative. They'd get the least boost, but, then again, they usually have the worst initiatives anyway.
Also, I'm thinking about adding ACP's to initiative, since it seems it would make sense that someone in heavy armor would have more trouble reacting quickly than someone in light or no armor.
What would everyone consider of even doing away with a random roll at all? Just going with RS + IM - ACP + 10?
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Interesting. I've wondered about adding Wis mod before, as Wis reflects perception and instincts as well as good judgement. Why Int?
ACP penalty makes sense.
I've seen talk about throwing in a little weapon speed from 1E by assigning different weapons Initiative penalties - dagger = quick, no penalty; great sword = slow, -2 to Initiative.
I don't see which die you use as that important. A smaller die will just bunch everyone closer together, but they'll still go one at a time. Actually, a smaller time will reduce the variability and a high base Initiative will almost always go first, the slow guy will rarely get lucky and roll high enough to outweigh base Initiative. If that's what you're looking for, go for it. Personally, I wouldn't want to see an all-the-time static Initiative, too predictable.
I also saw someone talk about adding "stances" to combat. One to increase damage at the cost of AC, one was increase AC at the cost of damage (basically Power Attack/Combat Expertise for everyone), and one was to increase to hit by sacrificing initiative, and finally to gain initiative by swinging wildly and sacrificing to hit. If you're tightening up the range of initiatives, small changes like that might appeal to your players.
I thought about adding WIS as well, but that's a lot of static bonuses. Still possible. It offends my sense of balance though, two mentals and one physical stat bonus (RS is still a dex bonus).
Int is your ability to think and reason, the higher your intelligence, the better you are at thinking, and thus thinking on your feet. Wisdom is more about 'gut check' and common sense. Think of it as the difference between getting a skinky feeling off the used car salesman because he doesn't seem honest (wisdom) and figuring out that the odometer mileage can't be right, due to the age of the car (intelligence).
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Initiative :
Reflex Save + INT Mod + 1d10.What would everyone consider of even doing away with a random roll at all? Just going with RS + IM - ACP + 10?
Of these two, I'd suggest check with your players whether they prefer the randomness of the d10 version, or the static nature of the flat 'take 10' option.
In GURPS, everybody has a flat Basic Speed that determines when they go in the turn sequence, and I found it nice to not have to roll for that, but I have friends who prefer a bit more randomness in their games (preferring randomly rolled attributes to point-buy, for instance).
Basing Initiative off of Intelligence, while still keeping Dex in the mix through the Reflex save option (and also having level and class become a factor, through the Reflex save) is all kinds of brilliant.
Factoring in ACP (or encumbrance penalties) also makes some sense, and would add a little more benefit to the Fighter's Armor Training class ability, which is cool.
There are occasional threads about Dex being 'too good,' or an uber-stat, because of how many things it modifies, compared to others, and having Int also affect Initiative might be a small step towards dialing that perception back.
Yeah, my first major GM run was on Shadowrun, where reaction was the average of your Dex and Int, so it seems a no brainer to me.
I may ask them at the next game if they'd like to keep using the current method, or move to either the d10 or static initative.
I played around with the idea of 3d6+Init mod for Init. It rewarded the people who focused on it quite well.
yeah, that's the sort of thing I was looking for when I wanted to know what I was overlooking.
I'd say that any ability or class feature that adds something to initiative, adds it. So a Kensai would basically get 2xINT MOD to initiative. That'll be big at lower levels, but the reflex saves at higher levels will mean more, and his heavy AC will hurt more at lower levels.
As to weapon speed, I hate to add in that as it would go back to slowing things down, or you'd have to keep track of multiple initiative scores. yeah, it would make more sense (probably something like 'Unarmed +1', 'Light +0', '1 Handed -1' and '2 Handed -2' or something like that. But again, it would slow things down more cause you'd have to readjust every time someone switched weapons.
I played around with the idea of 3d6+Init mod for Init. It rewarded the people who focused on it quite well.
That would group them all around 15, but it wouldn't address the armor or intelligence.
I played around with the idea of 3d6+Init mod for Init. It rewarded the people who focused on it quite well.That would group them all around 15, but it wouldn't address the armor or intelligence.
Right. I was only concerned about how it's basically impossible to ever have your character's skill be the primary determinant for your result, rather than the die roll.
Maybe someone with excessively high Dex and Improved Initiative can make their bonus be the primary determinant. But everyone else is boned. Improved Init should be worth something.
I would honestly put initiative more on Wis than anything else since it's the reasoning score that let's your notice threats and know what's going on. After that I would tie in Int at half as much so given the fact a faster thinker is more likely to reach a conclusion with Dex being a minor factor that determines how quickly you respond to said conslusion. So, my equation would look something like ([Wis mod] * 2) + [Int mod] + ([Dex mod] * .5). This would make big dumb fighters exactly that and equally "sluggish" to respond to battle ("why is that big man with a sword running at me?") while giving the more astute observer ("I judged how likely they were to attack given their body language") a boon in battle.
That said, I like your tie-in with Int, mdt.
I think the main improvement is to drop back to a d10. I like the 3d6 idea as well.
I'm not as keen on adding anything else to it. Including Int mod benefits Wizards greatly, and I have a gut feeling that will unbalance things. If the Wizards gets to go first most of the time, even without the feat Improved Initiative though with Dex at 14 for casting rays (Initiative +6), he will stop most encounters before they begin.
Contrast this with the 2H weapon Barbarian who has a dex also around 14 and Improved Initiative (Initiative +6), me would roll as high for his Initiative, and knock down one or two foes straight away, but it has cost him a feat as well. He may have some Int mod to add to take him in front of the Wizard, but it has cost him a feat to get there.
It just doesn't feel fair to me.
We also tried 1d10, which I like as well. Basically, anything that rewards those who focus on the thing is a good idea.
Ability checks suffer from the fact that even with a 30 in the score, the die roll matters more. A 30 means you should almost always succeed. Not that chance determines more.
1: I think combat types should have a better initiative in general than caster types. just my opinion
2: So why int rather than wis? Wis is not used (for the most part) by the arcane casters, it is the stat used for perception and sense motive, and in general seems to make more sense for mental reaction time considering it is used for your will save. in your example, that "slinky feeling" should be better for your reaction speed than your ability to analyze the current status of the situation. When you analyze something you certainly understand it more, but I'm not sure it means you should react more quickly. that is, it surely helps you know what you should do and how to do it, but that is only a factor of initiative for those who think about these things. The raging barabarian shouldn't be taking a relative or actual penalty because he couldn't think quickly enough about the situation, that seems absurd.
though, other than the balance issue, this is mostly interpretation, and I accept that.
3: why not... BaB rather than the "save" part of reflex save? better for the high bab at later levels, worse for the full casters who should be fine anyway. also it makes it less abusable, as there are ways to make one single save extraordinary
4: ACP should not factor in to how quickly you react to things. it kind of makes sense, but could end up making heavy armor extinct.
5: not being rolled seems bad for interparty balance, combat variety, and realism. The bonus already determines that it isn't random, it doesn't need to be static.
You might have some luck with mixing things up more without changing everything just by instituting a rule wherein initiative is rolled more than once per combat. For instance, try re-rolling every 4 rounds or so.
We had pretty good luck mixing things up in the past when my own group got bored with the norm.
Though statistically the same people have a greater chance of a higher result each roll, the additional rolls did seem to produce wider ranging results overall, with dramatic back-and forth dynamics between monsters and PCs.
Downside is it's a bit more math per combat.
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I would treat it in a different manner including a bonus relating to each BAB progression, as follows:
Low +0
Moderate +1
High +2
In my experience, I would stay away from stat modifiers as it could lead to an arms race of magic items that enhance certain stats and could bog down the feel of the campaign. Honestly I feel this little addition should work fine to create a better spread of initiatives, and if you have your players re-roll initiative every 3 rounds (given that it would total 18 seconds worth of combat time) that should provide a possible feel you are looking for.
Dex Mod.+BAB Bonus(see above)+ Misc. Mod.
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We also tried 1d10, which I like as well. Basically, anything that rewards those who focus on the thing is a good idea.
Ability checks suffer from the fact that even with a 30 in the score, the die roll matters more. A 30 means you should almost always succeed. Not that chance determines more.
Replacing all 1d20 rolls with a 2d10 roll can help make stuff less 'swingy' and more standard.
Minor tweaks, such as dealing with criticals (crit 20 becomes a crit on 2 10's, with no confirmation roll necessary, crit 19-20 becomes a crit on 2 10s, or 1 10 and 1 9, etc.), will be needed, but, otherwise, it makes the bewildering misses or over the top successes a bit more rare, as they fall on the end of the curve, and you don't have a 5% chance every time you drop the die of a crazy failure (or equally crazy success).
Don't you think Perception should have a lot to do with how quickly you react to things?
How about:
Initiative + Perception + BAB + ACP +dice?
Fighters won't exceed other, unless they build up Perception and Inititative, though they will brought back by their armour. Archers should do very well.
Casters have a chance to make up for the lower BAB by taking ranks in Perception, and now their lack of armour will help them.
Rangers and Barbarians may benefit most from this model, and that makes sense to me for combat. Rogues too.
I believe, from experience with medieval reenactment, that heavy armour does slow you down. When you can't move as fast (which is written into the rules), you can't react as fast either.
I don't think that this would make Heavy Armour extinct. It just introduces one disadvantage that, I think, is still outweighed by the advantage of much higher AC.
I would include negatives for Perception and Initiative, if the character has Dex or Wis as a dump stat it should have consequences.
It would be interesting to run some of these ideas over characters that have already been built.
Well in order for modifiers to really be relevant, the modifiers need to be on order of the standard deviation. In order for the modifier to be dominate, it should be at least twice the standard deviation. The standard deviation for 1d20 is 6 while the standard deviation for 2d10 is 4. So it to be dominate, you just need an 18 Dex and improved init using 2d10.
Wow, I apparently hit a nerve here. :) IN a good way.
Not sure I want to add a dozen things together to get initiative. Remember, if the initative scales with level, then ACP isn't as big a deal. Even if it's just Reflex Save (which I really like, as it sort of fits across the board on classes, where 'quick' classes have higher initiatives), even a poor save class is looking at a +6 to init from reflex, before dex, at level 20. So that's completely negating the ACP from plain old full plate. At lower levels for Mithral.
And I kind of like that at lower levels, it should be really difficult to mvoe around in 50 lbs of metal when you're first learning to do it. Fighter's would gain both RS bonuses and ACP reductions as they level, so they'd still get better over time.
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I like most of what you're proposing, however it seems to me that Wisdom is a far better fit than Intelligence. I think that perception and being able to follow your gut are better representations of what is needed in combat than raw intellect. YMMV.
I like reducing the die size and a d10 goes back (at least) to Second Edition otherwise it might be fun to give the d12 some love.
I also think I like the ACP being attached but I would certainly watch it in play and see if it had an effect on what armors were favored and decide if it really matters. ACP will also often favor monsters as non-humanoid foes rarely wear armor.
Having Initiative scale with Reflex is good because it is also easy to fix initiative for monsters.
I don't mind one initiative roll per encounter but my PCs frequently delay or ready an action so our combat may not be as static as what you experience.
If it were my game I might adopt a couple of your changes but probably not all of them.
If it were me these would be my choices:
Hmmm,
Maybe this then?
1d10 + Reflex + (Max of Int Mod or Wis Mod) + ACP + Misc Mod.
Those who are smart and think fast on their feet react faster, those who have good instincts react faster also. Those who have average or lousy instincts, or who aren't all that bright, still can react fast based of reflexes if they have the right training.
No, monk's get wis to AC. I dont' think any class get's WIS to init. There were some feats in 3.5 that let you do it, but nothing in PF that I know of.
Ok, how about this :
Initiative
To calculate your initial initiative bonus, use the following formula :
Reflex Save + Armor Check Penalty
Then add the maximum of either your Intelligence Modifier, or your Wisdom Modifier. If you have a class ability or feat that adds one of these two modifiers to your initiative, you add both modifiers to your initiative. If you have feats or class abilities that add both modifiers to your initiative, you gain Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
After calculating your base initiative, add any other modifiers, such as those granted by domains or wizard abilities. When rolling initiative, add 1d10 to this total at the beginning of combat.
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When I was playing around with using Exalted-style ticks for combat instead of traditional initiative, I decided to make initiative (at the start of combat) an initiative check - DC 5 = tick 6, DC 10 = tick 5, DC 15 = tick 4, DC 20 = tick 3, DC 25 = tick 2, DC 30 = tick 1. It would be not anywhere near as a big a deal to apply ACP to that kind of roll than to a straight init = roll kind of deal...
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When I was playing around with using Exalted-style ticks for combat instead of traditional initiative, I decided to make initiative (at the start of combat) an initiative check - DC 5 = tick 6, DC 10 = tick 5, DC 15 = tick 4, DC 20 = tick 3, DC 25 = tick 2, DC 30 = tick 1. It would be not anywhere near as a big a deal to apply ACP to that kind of roll than to a straight init = roll kind of deal...
This is interesting and I may take a look at something like this sometime.
A couple of questions:
We should just add all the modifiers because let's be honest, everything effects turn order under the right circumstances. You know what screw that turn based games aren't realistic enough everyone should play their turns at nearly the exact same time that way we get a real feeling for combat.
Inquisitor gets wis to init, I think.
I'm still not sold on the save part of reflex save. I like it on the rogue and ranger and monk, but I don't understand why the fighter needs to lose out. It's not like reaction time isn't a big part of fighting or anything. :I
And should the paladin be getting charisma to init? Does the bard deserve a bonus where the barbarian or magus does not? What about the alchemist?
Using ref save seems wonky to me. If the high number that the BAB alternative produces bothers you, make it one half bab. Sure it wouldn't matter until later levels that way, but it doesn't need to.
Or hell, link the increasing bonus to bab in a non linear way, so that you can get your bonus early. Or just make a base initiative bonus that has either good or bad progression.
There are a lot of options here, and its going to take a lot more work to convince me that ref save is the right one (not that you need to).
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I was thinking of it as a matching bonus working off Dex and not getting every modifier that could be added to the Reflex save otherwise Lightning Reflexes would be much better than Iron Will and Great Fortitude. Even Improved Initiative would not be as valuable as it is now.
But the slowed fighter is a valid (and problematic) point too.
Actually, that's not bad. They're mostly all within a 1d10 roll of each other. Even the fighter and cavalier are within 10 of almost everyone else (except the rogue). And I'm not against the rogue having a nice to have for a change.
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Actually, that's not bad. They're mostly all within a 1d10 roll of each other. Even the fighter and cavalier are within 10 of almost everyone else (except the rogue). And I'm not against the rogue having a nice to have for a change.
Yeah having read the breakdown list it's not too bad most of my concerns are assuaged enough I'd consider giving it a try in play. If it doesn't work what's the worst that happens--you stop using it and go back to the old way?
*edit* Although the very fast wizard could be a balance issue as pointed out above but I'd still be willing to try it.
Hmmm,
BAB would be too good. And Half-BAB would be the same as Reflex for the full BAB types.
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When I was playing around with using Exalted-style ticks for combat instead of traditional initiative, I decided to make initiative (at the start of combat) an initiative check - DC 5 = tick 6, DC 10 = tick 5, DC 15 = tick 4, DC 20 = tick 3, DC 25 = tick 2, DC 30 = tick 1. It would be not anywhere near as a big a deal to apply ACP to that kind of roll than to a straight init = roll kind of deal...This is interesting and I may take a look at something like this sometime.
A couple of questions:
How did you generate initiative when you did this?
It seems like you would have a lot more simultaneous actions. Did that bog things down?
Initiative was calculated as normal, though I wasn't and am not wedded to that idea.
I haven't had a chance to play d20 with this system yet, but it doesn't bog things down as much as you might think in Exalted, because of the way the tick system works. Actions take a certain number of ticks to perform, with different actions requiring different numbers of ticks. That tends to spread out the actions fairly quickly, even if they start out fairly bunched up.
EDIT: I think it's just the MAD issues that will come with this current formula that will favor a wizard since they don't need armor and can invest their points into initiative affecting feats. Dump strength/charisma, buy a 2000gp slotless muleback cords and a handy haversack and the strength dump means nothing and you can spike things more. I know this is a fringe case and is munchkin abuse but done in a way that people already play wizards and wouldn't seem out of the ordinary.
Well, honesly, wizards already get high initiatives. Especially divination school. Just the fact that they can currently boost their dex to +6 (which they do for AC), and that puts them on the top of the initiative food chain already. So it's basically just more of the same for them.
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The currently proposed set-up almost makes me want to add casting times back into the game but that would go beyond the scope of small changes.
Half BAB could work or use BAB quality (good-poor) determine the Init bonus equal to a save progression of a similar quality.
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I haven't had a chance to play d20 with this system yet, but it doesn't bog things down as much as you might think in Exalted, because of the way the tick system works. Actions take a certain number of ticks to perform, with different actions requiring different numbers of ticks. That tends to spread out the actions fairly quickly, even if they start out fairly bunched up.
Ah. I haven't played Exalted but once or twice when the game first came out and didn't remember how the ticks worked at all. Thanks.
The currently proposed set-up almost makes me want to add casting times back into the game but that would go beyond the scope of small changes.
Half BAB could work or use BAB quality (good-poor) determine the Init bonus equal to a save progression of a similar quality.
I don't think so. Half BAB actually works out to be almost exactly poor reflex save. So a Cavalier or Fighter would have the same bonus as from base reflex save, but without the dex component.