RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Sorry I think I was unclear. what I meant was: If the character has a good attack progression give them an initiative bonus equivalent to a good save progression.
*edit* I also didn't mean it should be a choice between 1/2 BAB or save progression for the players I meant it as a choice between the two for the system. Sorry.
If we do that, then we might as well bring everyone back to 0 and just use dex, as you'll be basically canceling out the differences.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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If we do that, then we might as well bring everyone back to 0 and just use dex, as you'll be basically canceling out the differences.
I'm just kinda thinking out loud as it were. I was just thinking the progress scales up as PCs go up in level and rewards martial characters.
*edit* Poor attack bonus characters would get a poor Init bonus.
A lot of people are commenting on what numbers should be added together, which is great, but going back to the OP I’d like to give my opinion on two other things. First, I really dislike the idea of a static number for initiative. To me this is just to unrealistic, people don’t always react to everything at the same speed so I’d have to say definitely keep a random element (die roll) as part of the initiative.
And since I know there is always someone that likes to say that the game is a fantasy game and isn’t realistic I’ll go ahead and respond to that. The truth is that while there is a certain amount of “suspension of disbelief” when playing the game we all expect some level of realism. For me, a static number indicating that a character always goes at the same point in initiative just doesn’t “feel” right. Feel free to disagree if you’d like.
The other thing relates to rolling initiative each round. I’ve done this before for a couple years and honestly I prefer rolling once and keeping the initiative for two reasons. First, in large groups it can get hectic to try and keep track of who has gone when it’s constantly changing which in turn slows down the game. Of course, even in smaller groups the game will probably lag a little more since players generally find it more difficult to get into a routine of preparing while the person before them is going since the person before them keeps changing.
Second, and in my opinion more relevantly, it can create a very dangerous effect, especially for groups of bad guys that have their initiative rolled together. This occurs when a few people roll poorly, going last in one round, and then roll well enough to go first on the next. The results are they get to go twice back-to-back. This means their opponents are not given any time to react to their first attack and already they are being hit again and can easily create a very large damage spike. In some circumstances I’d even say it’s worth forfeiting initiative in a round for the chance to roll well and spike. After all you still get the same number of actions each round, so tactically, spiking so that your opponent does not have time to react to heal or prevent the damage can be useful.
Oh and one other thing, you mention rolling a 1 as if it messes you up for the whole battle but really I don’t believe that’s true. Once the battle has had a few rounds it tend to be barely noticeable. In fact, the longer a battle goes on for the less it matters so it’s only the shorter battles were it has a substantial impact. Though I admit players always hate when it happens :)
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I do like the 3d6 idea. I might use that in my next campaign. As for the weapons speeds, I have always liked that idea, but I don't think I would make it that large of an impact. Say +1 for light/unarmed, +0 for medium, -1 for 2handed weapons. Though, I would make a distiction with two headed weapons, and say they are medium for init. Along those same lines, the init should be fluid so that say you start with a Longbow [-1 init] and switch to a dagger, your Init would go up by +2 the next round.
As for armor, I don't think I could justify a straight ACP minus. Heavy armors would be thrown away. Maybe something a little closer to the weapons as, +1 for light armor or no armor, +0 for medium, and -1 for heavy. I don't think shields should be a factor except for a tower shield which I would give a -1 init. Finally, I would increase the effect of Masterwork armor to include either reduction in the ACP or an increase in the base init.
Finally, I don't see why you can't take a feat that replaces your Init modifier with either your INT or WIS. I wouldn't let it outright based on class or something, but definately would give the same impact as say Improve Init. It should be pointed out that for a true spell caster, I am pretty much already giving you a +2 init, because you probably aren't going to be wearing any armor [+1] and you will probably be using a light weapon [+1].
Of course this all begs being abused.
Example: 1st lvl human wizard. 18 INT with INT for Init feat [+4], Improved Init [+4], Reactionary trait [+2], no armor [+1], dagger in hand [+1], with Compsognathus for familiar [+4], Reactionary trait [= Init +18, so with 3d6, will roll out a 29 most of the time.
Of course as a GM I wouldn't allow that kind of min/maxing with the wizard. The Compsognathus is okay, if justified, but the two feats for the same effect....not so much.
I am necro-ing this thread because while I was rethinking initiative I really couldn't understand the ideology of making the initiative die a d10 (or anything less than a d20). Can anyone explain this?
If you had DEX +4, Reactionary trait +2, and Improved Initiative +4 you'd have a +10 to initiative, the lowest you could roll is an 11. If you used a d10 then someone with average initiative bonus of +0 could never beat you. You would win 100% of the time. IMO absolutes like this are not good mechanics. There should be at least some chance however slim that sometimes the average guy could beat the +10 guy.
So why make the initiative die less than a d20?
o.O
O.o
Wow... I switched from Pathfinder from 2E... and while pathfinder is MUCH more 'rule-bound' and frustrating at times...
I LOVE the way they do initiative.
I LOVE the idea of taking Weapon speeds out back and putting a bullet in their head. Casting time was streamlined.. I LOVE the 'roll once' and keep the same number all round...
Frankly there are enough ways to 'adjust' your place on the chart that it isn't really needed..
I think the only 'house rule' we added in... is Ties go to the player with the highest Dex.
Because it just makes sense...
But really, the 'roll every round' worked fine in 2E (unless you had a weapon that ALWAYS went last...) but the COMBAT in Pathfinder is MUCH more involved... Rage/Power attack/Cleave.. Crits multiply some damage... but not others...
I've seen people in our groups do 360 points in ONE round... Frankly it's time consuming adding and subtracting all those bonuses from a dozen different sources... depending on your current situations... THIS round.
Rolling every round just wouldn't ADD much to the game, and would only drag it out longer.
Really, in our game I have a Init mod of +6, another player has a mod of +1.... EITHER of us can be going first at any given time... soooo it's not a balance issue. and the battles don't last THAT many rounds for people to be getting screwed over by the init order...
I'm ususally against anything that over complicates an already complicated game.
@revloc02
I'll turn your question around on you. You've invested your highest stat in dex (18), you've spent a feat, and a trait on being fast. You roll 11 to 30.
Should you have a 40% chance of going after someone who has a 10 dex and no other initiative bonuses? Someone who put no effort into at all? A 45% chance that the turtle in full plate goes first?
@revloc02
I'll turn your question around on you. You've invested your highest stat in dex (18), you've spent a feat, and a trait on being fast. You roll 11 to 30.
Should you have a 40% chance of going after someone who has a 10 dex and no other initiative bonuses? Someone who put no effort into at all? A 45% chance that the turtle in full plate goes first?
Yes.
Only it's not 40%. It's a 11.25% chance which I can live with--1 in 9 times the averages guy gets to go first.
If Fast-Initiative-Guy (FIG) rolls a 1 (5%), he gets an 11 initiative and there's a 9 in 20 chance (45%) that Average-Speed-Guy (ASG) can beat that one. So multiply that (5% * 45%) and you get 2.25%. If FIG rolls a 2 (5%) then his initiative is 12 and there is a 8 in 20 chance (40%) that ASG can beat that 2, so (5% * 40%) 2%. And so on up to 9 (or 9+10), because if FIG rolls a 10 or higher he can't be beat by ASG.
1 11 5.00% * 45.00% = 2.25%
2 12 5.00% * 40.00% = 2.00%
3 13 5.00% * 35.00% = 1.75%
4 14 5.00% * 30.00% = 1.50%
5 15 5.00% * 25.00% = 1.25%
6 16 5.00% * 20.00% = 1.00%
7 17 5.00% * 15.00% = 0.75%
8 18 5.00% * 10.00% = 0.50%
9 19 5.00% * 05.00% = 0.25%
Add up the last column and you get 11.25%.
Most of the time the fast guy goes first but even if he doesn't he still gets a turn that round, so he hasn't lost that much, IMO, on those rare occasions.
I'll concede that that might be a little high (maybe <shrug>), and you turning the question around on me helps to see it in a different perspective. I appreciate that. It'll help as I continue to think about how I want to do initiatives in my games.
Now that I've answered your question, I really would like to understand why you'd choose to use a d10. Just your reasoning behind it could be very insightful to me. I really can't understand it, that's why I am asking, not so that I can flame you, or rip the idea apart (this is the House Rules section after all and to each his own), it's just kinda flummoxed me and I have found that having things explained to me when I don't get it can sometimes be the most enlightening experiences.
The reason I suggested a d10 is that a d20 has a wide swing range. The average is 10.5, but the standard deviation is 5.77. That is, almost a 25% range either way. That's a big range of deviation. Basically, it means that most of the time your initiative is based more on your roll than your actual initiative, unless you've specifically built yourself to have an 11 or higher Init.
I picked a d10 because we have to use a dice, and dropping the die down seems more logically a d10 than a d12. The d10 has a standard deviation of 2.9. Which means that even a trait giving +2 init has at least as much effect on your init as the swing of the die. Instead of it being a third of the swing effect.
Basically it's a way to compress down the initiatives so that investment > random chaos.
I'll preface this post by saying I've never actually tried the following idea, but it seems no harder to implement than anything else posted here.
Why don't you let different people roll different dice for their initiative rather than just assigning static bonuses? I like the idea of using Dex (or Reflex save, if you want something that increases with level). I also like the idea of including ACP to initiative which makes intuitive sense. I also agree with most of the others here that wisdom makes for a better fit than intelligence. Since wisdom is your "instinct" stat, why not have your wisdom bonus determine what die you roll:
WIS Bonus:-----Initiative Die
-2 or worse---------1d2
-1---------------------1d3
+0--------------------1d4
+1--------------------1d6
+2--------------------1d8
+3--------------------1d10
+4--------------------2d6
+5--------------------2d8
+6 or better--------2d10
Personally, as a DM, I always pre-roll enemy initiative, so it's really no more work for me and players' wisdom stat changes infrequently enough that it shouldn't cause too much trouble for them either. The one thing I like most about this is that you can also narrate *why* someone ended up going first. Was it because they can simply move quickly (no ACP and/or good reflex save, despite a low roll) or because they had a feeling something was about to happen (perhaps low reflexes, but a good roll indicating instincts).
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Interesting.
Here's my house rule on initiative:
Like you I think more experience would mean better reaction time, but also classes that are combat driven should still be better off than non-combat focused classes. To that end I follow the normal formula + BAB.
the next thing I do is after initiative is determined we go in reverse order and announce our actions. NO ONE GOES YET. your just declaring the actions. this means if the Goblin rolled crappy and is on the bottom of the order, he announces his action first, then the people who rolled better can choose to react to that specific action.
This takes into account that everyone is trying to act at the same time, so the "slower" people don't necessarily know that they are slower until the other person parries their sword and disarms them, then headbutts them. lol.
it works well in that it allows the swifter characters to really shine. It does make saved actions a bit difficult and in some cases makes them obsolete.
@CrankyRWMage
Sounds like Shadowrun initiative sequences. Slowest to fastest declare, fastest to slowest resolve.
I had a somewhat similar to change Initiative but that got roasted quite quickly.
I actually like the idea to simply use a d12 instead of a d20 for initiative.
I also liked BAB (or fraction of it) or REF, but I am not so sure about the true impact of these.
I'm not sure either. The player's didn't want to test it, so we basically are still using the old one, and people complain when their +10 init guy goes last.
The reason I suggested a d10 is that a d20 has a wide swing range. The average is 10.5, but the standard deviation is 5.77. That is, almost a 25% range either way. That's a big range of deviation. Basically, it means that most of the time your initiative is based more on your roll than your actual initiative, unless you've specifically built yourself to have an 11 or higher Init.
I picked a d10 because we have to use a dice, and dropping the die down seems more logically a d10 than a d12. The d10 has a standard deviation of 2.9. Which means that even a trait giving +2 init has at least as much effect on your init as the swing of the die. Instead of it being a third of the swing effect.
Basically it's a way to compress down the initiatives so that investment > random chaos.
Thanks, that actually makes a lot of sense, I appreciate you spelling it out for me.
Really? I actually got that from Champions. Shadowrun does that now too. My how time's change. lol.@CrankyRWMage
Sounds like Shadowrun initiative sequences. Slowest to fastest declare, fastest to slowest resolve.
I run a champions game on Fridays, and that's not how it runs. I assume you mean the HERO system, which is used by Champions? Unless they changed it in 6th edition.
5th edition would not lend itself to this. Since you go on phases (3, 6, 9, 12 for speed 4 for example) and then by dex. So there's no randomness to the initiative per se.
Ok,
I've really been hating the initiative thing lately. I prefer people having a different initiative each round, it makes combat more dynamic, and negates the whole '*#@* I rolled a one' penalty for the entire combat.What would everyone consider of even doing away with a random roll at all? Just going with RS + IM - ACP + 10?
These 2 lines seem to Directly contradict each other. Not only will initiatives be the EXACT same from round to round, they will be the same in EVERY combat going forward...
My fix for Initiative was to add the Initiative skill from Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook (p 69, I believe) to Pathfinder. It's not OGL, so I can't type it out here, unfortunately.
These 2 lines seem to Directly contradict each other. Not only will initiatives be the EXACT same from round to round, they will be the same in EVERY combat going forward...Ok,
I've really been hating the initiative thing lately. I prefer people having a different initiative each round, it makes combat more dynamic, and negates the whole '*#@* I rolled a one' penalty for the entire combat.What would everyone consider of even doing away with a random roll at all? Just going with RS + IM - ACP + 10?
Not really, you just don't get what I'm complaining about.
Here, let me illustrate it.
PC 1 : Dex 18, Imp Init, Init Trait : Total +init = 10
PC 2 : Dex 12 : Total +init = 1
BBEG : Dex 20, Imp Init : Total +init = 9
Mook 1-5 : Dex 10 : Total +init = 0
Initative rolls (d20) :
PC 1 : 2 + 10 = 12
PC 2 : 16 + 1 = 17
BBEG : 3 + 9 = 12
Mook 1-5 : 20 + 0 = 20
Initative rolls (d10) :
PC 1 : 1 + 10 = 11
PC 2 : 8 + 1 = 9
BBEG : 2 + 9 = 11
Mook 1-5 : 10 + 0 = 10
So, for the rest of the combat, Mooks with no bonus to initiative at all go before the PC kitted out to be high init, and the BBEG kitted out to be high init. Same with the PC who spent nothing on init.
So, to me, either fixed Init (so that PC 1 goes first, BBEG 2nd, PC 2 3rd, and Mooks last) would make sense, or shrinking the init die would make sense (see the d10 rolls above). That way the investment in +init actually feels like one, instead of the dice being the major contributor.
BAB as a minimum on the d20 roll?
Functionally the same as just adding it in. But BAB scales rapidly, so it's going to be the major contributor to Init after level 5.
Hmmm, perhaps...
Average (Dex + Int Bonus) + (1/full 5 BAB) + Other modifiers.
So,
PC has 14 Dex, 12 Int, that's +2 + 1 = 1.5 = +2 for Dex/Int, and an 8 BAB would add + 1. Plus any other init bonuses like Wizard bonuses or feats or traits.
But you were saying that you wanted dynamic (meaning some opportunity for change and randomness I'd wager) but then put forth rules on how to make it LESS likely to BE dynamic.
There's going to be the random chance that a mook could go first just out of the variable that is combat. Maybe your shoe scraped the stone as you moved forward, maybe mook 1 noticed your shadow just an instant before you came around the corner...
If you did want the dynamic that you seemed to indicate, just re-roll INIT each round. Leave it the same as standard. People who invest heavily in INIT will most likely win the greater part of the time just from having such a nice bonus but the low Init mook could get lucky now and again.
There's dynamism for you. Adds a little risk. With your system, if you invest in INIT then you are guaranteed to go first. That's not dynamic, that's stale.
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Reflex Save + INT Mod + 1d10.
im in the same boat you are, when i GM i have people use a d12 + dex mod + feats/features/traits. it makes rolling a one less of a negative. people always ask themselves "why the hell did i take improved inititive" when the guy with the +0 inititive mod beats them in the order.
But you were saying that you wanted dynamic (meaning some opportunity for change and randomness I'd wager) but then put forth rules on how to make it LESS likely to BE dynamic.
You have a faulty assumption. You are assuming a binary situation. It's either dynamic or static. You're wrong.
It's a curve, there's static on one end, and wildly erratic on the other end (say, everyone has an initiative of 1 on one end, and everyone roles 47d100 on the other end). There's lots of bits in between. I'm looking for a level of dynamic that consistently rewards those who spend feats/resources on initiative, but still allows some randomness. In other words, I'm looking for the 'Neutral' on the axis of Static/Chaotic.
im in the same boat you are, when i GM i have people use a d12 + dex mod + feats/features/traits. it makes rolling a one less of a negative. people always ask themselves "why the hell did i take improved inititive" when the guy with the +0 inititive mod beats them in the order.
Reflex Save + INT Mod + 1d10.
Yep, that's the situation I'm trying to avoid. Unfortunately, it's not easy, and it pulls out the hecklers to even post.
Plus I find it annoying that only dex goes into initiative. Honestly, the more you are in combat, the better you should be at reacting to combat. The smarter you are, the quicker you think, and the faster you can react.
I went around and around about this for months myself.
Do you have initiative because you:
Sprinted? = STR
Wove through the crowd? = DEX
Are composed? = CON
Saw it coming? = INT
Sensed motives? = WIS
Abandoned diplomacy? = CHA
The conundrum is obvious. For a time I just had it as an unmodified d20, but that was kind of unsatisfying. Eventually I just gave up and gave in to DEX because DEX needed love as an ability score and rogues/wizards really need the bonus most.
Nothing wrong with feats that let you swap in another ability though. They have those for almost everything now.
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Ah, the initiative thread!
Last month, I was working on a d20 remake as part of a contest on Something Awful, and I had initiative as a skill for all five (yes, five!) classes in-game. It worked just like Saga Edition/4e: Roll a d20, add your Wisdom modifier, add half your character level, add 5 if you're trained, add another 5 if you have Skill Focus (Initiative.)
(Yeah, I kinda realize that if you luck out in character creation, this gives you +15 Initiative at first level. I enjoy having characters go first in combat. =p)