While there are a lot of good ideas above, I would add one more point. The worst spells are the ones that work the exact same way as your current spells.
Ex) If you can't hit the thieves guild with your fireball, lightning bolt won't be much better.
Ex) if you can't affect the ogre zombie with sleep, switching to hold person isn't better.
Sorcerers plan their spells in advance too, it's just a year in advance, not a day. Make sure you can at least target all three saves and touch AC, and have a way to overcome or bypass SR.
The problem we had with Ogre Mages were them summoning creatures using silenced metamagic spells. So no noise, and no moving around.
Like I said, custom built--Ogre Mages have neither Silent Spell nor summoning. Nor Stone Shape, for that matter.
And immobile does not mean not casting, it just means immobile, not moving. If you're not moving around (staying in your square). So, it's a lot harder to notice someone then.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Immobile does not mean staying in the same square as far as I'm concerned. If it did, there'd be no reason to have a +20 bonus anywhere, it'd be +40 or +15 if you moved. The +20 is for when you do something in your square, but don't leave it.
As to not stealthing while invisible, that's not the way it works. It takes a move action to stealth, or you can do it while taking a move action. That doesn't mean you have to actually move. You can stealth with a move action while remaining immobile in one space. That's a +40.
I'm aware, I'm suggesting that someone couldn't cast a spell and stay hidden. The best case scenario for them is that they Stealthed the previous turn (which means PCs get Perception vs. Stealth with Invisibility bonus), then cast a spell which breaks the Stealth (giving the PCs a Perception vs. the default Invisibility DC), then uses his move action to Stealth again. The PCs would still know where the Ogre Mage was during the spell casting.
Somatic Components still break Stealth. "Silent Spell" is a misnomer--it doesn't become silent, it drops the vocal component. For an Invisible person, that would mean no -20 for talking. But it doesn't magically make the somatic components silent. They're still waving their arms and crap.
Further, Summoning takes 1 round, so he absolutely can't Stealth while doing that since there would be no Move Action available.
Also, not sure where you got the idea you can't stealth and cast spells. You can stealth whenever you doing anything as long as it's not Charging, Attacking, or Bull Rushing.
Where are you getting that from?
Casting a summon spell is not attacking. Nor is casting illusion spells, darkness spells, or anything else that can cause indirect damage (like stone shaping the support out from under the bridge we were walking over, I really hated that one).
I agree those things are not attacks and wouldn't break Invisibility, but they would break Stealth.
And again, these Ogre Mages you fought were incredibly leveled up by your GM--not a single thing you mentioned them doing is in their capabilities by the book. I don't have a problem with that, no, I find that cool that he custom built these enemies. But it does mean that using them as an example of why Sorcerers in general should take a certain spell is probably not the best idea. It is unlikely anyone outside of your game will face Ogre Mages that do those sorts of things.
Oh, and he also screwed you guys majorly on the Stealth/Invisibility rules. I don't blame him, totally, because he generally followed common sense, but the Rules and common sense don't often intersect.
It wasn't just ogre mages, those were just the creature I remembered that irritated me the most, because they kept flying away (we were level 5 and had no flight capability).
He also did the same thing with higher level casters (I think the bridge thing was someone with greater invisibility actually). The point was, we ended up getting true sight goggles for everyone to avoid this stuff. If you don't think it's a good spell, that's fine.
As to the stealthing, it specifically says under stealth that you can't stealth when attacking, running, or charging. That means you can attempt stealth while doing other things. The problem is going to be that you have to take a move action to do so. So full round actions end the stealth, but standard actions don't. You get penalties to your stealth (like, a shouted out a magic command word) would probably drop the perception DC down by 10 or 15, but a silenced invisible caster standing still except for wiggling invisible fingers in the air is immobile.
While there are a lot of good ideas above, I would add one more point. The worst spells are the ones that work the exact same way as your current spells.
Ex) If you can't hit the thieves guild with your fireball, lightning bolt won't be much better.
Ex) if you can't affect the ogre zombie with sleep, switching to hold person isn't better.
Sorcerers plan their spells in advance too, it's just a year in advance, not a day. Make sure you can at least target all three saves and touch AC, and have a way to overcome or bypass SR.
These are all good points; avoiding spell redundancy is an often overlooked aspect of sorcerer builds; having both fireball and lightening bolt is a waste. it would be better to pick up a feat that will change the shape and/or energy type if you want for variety out of your blasting.
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At first glance, alter self is gold for a sorcerer, but I find myself not liking it very much. While it certainly provides versatility, it lacks the one thing that would make it truly worth casting: a decent duration. Alter Self, like most of the polymorph spells, suffer from a low duration, rendering it nothing more than a combat spell, and a useless one at that, since all of its benefits are more favorable for melee attackers. A good use for the spell, like the varies polymorphs, could be covert in nature, but I usually find a few minutes not long enough to infiltrate a gnoll encampment, find the hostage, release the hostage, and creep back out undetected.
All of the other benefits of the spell also don't last long enough; using it for Darkvision, as mdt has said, isn't all that useful.
Disguise Self is better at disguising, absolutely. As for Alter Self, I wouldn't choose it in most circumstances, but it's excellent for an Aberrant Sorcerer. You Alter yourself into a boggard, and use your tongue with Long Limbs to increase your reach for your touch spells. In fact, I find aberrant sorcerers spending more time in melee than your average sorcerer, so melee bonuses and natural attacks are actually okay to have, and stack with your other touch attacks.
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Anything with a HD value cap is a kinda sorta bad option for a Sorcerer. The problem is they do cap out and eventually, no matter how much you use feats to enhance they become wasted slots eventually.
However! At lower levels Sleep, etc are still some of the best crowd control for you casting effort. The catch is you are a sorcerer so if there is a Witch or Wizard sitting around they are going to get way more use of such spells.
Actually Witches are basically the Queens of Mez effects with Cackle etc on deck.
It's better to focus your effects on other forms of control. (Unless the party lacks that.)
But if you want to be a melee Sorcerer and didn't get False Life. I'm so sorry, so sorry....
'Nukes' like lightning bolt and cone of cold are kinda' subpar for their level.
Well, sure, but plenty of people take them anyway. In fact, my understanding is that the sorcerer was designed for spamming out subpar choices. At least, from a balance perspective.
But it can do ore, and a well- designed sorcerer spell list can be packed with flavor AND highly effective.
For extra points, build it so that the opportunities to replace spells are used, on purpose.
Leomund's secret chest that is no longer Leomund.
It's still Leomund's Secret Chest in my games, as is every other named spell; Mordenkainen still gets credit for his spells, as do Bigby, Tenser, Otiluke, Elminster, Abi-Dalzim, and the rest.
Heck, I still refer to "hideous laughter" by its true and proper name.
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Oh I agree, important magical/scientific research should be above petty copyright bs!
Lol, indeed.
Even when 3E came about, and the names got ditched, I remained a traditionalist when it comes to spell titles. It's just how I roll.
I'm surprised noone talked about Contact Other Plane, a spell that requires an Int check to avoid a Charisma decrease.
Wait, I'm confused.
Don't Ogre Mages use spell-like abilities, not actual spells? Spell-like abilities use a standard action, but don't use material, somatic, or verbal components. Since using them doesn't require a creature to wave their arms, speak, or fiddle with pouches, or do anything other than think really hard, doesn't that mean they don't interfere with stealth?
Though most ogre mage spell-like abilities are attack based, so they'd literally break their invisibility.
However, an invisible ogre mage could still cast darkness on a pebble or gold coin without breaking invisibility or dropping stealth, and could use gaseous form to become an invisible ogre cloud.
*sigh*
I'm sorry I ever mentioned Ogre Mages. They were just one of dozens of things he used with invisibility over the course of a year. If I could go back and change 'Ogre Mages' to 'Invisibility using enemies' I would.
So, to reiterate, the GM in question used invisibility, greater invisibility, permanent invisiblity cloaks, and dozens of different users (from ogre mages to a rakshasa) that were invisible.
Can we get past the Ogre mage now? Sheesh...
The optimizers will probably all disagree with me.
But if I imagine myself as a sorcerer. I would certainly take at least 1 spell of each low level (probably the last one I learned) as a non-combat, useful, me being lazy around the house type spell.
Things like unseen servant, floating disk, mage hand, mending, make whole, prestidigitation, mount, mastery, etc...
I know, that is lots more than 1 of each level like that so I'd have to make choices. But I would take a few for sure.
I mean, what's the point of being a sorcerer if you still have to shine your shoes?!?
The optimizers will probably all disagree with me.
But if I imagine myself as a sorcerer. I would certainly take at least 1 spell of each low level (probably the last one I learned) as a non-combat, useful, me being lazy around the house type spell.
Things like unseen servant, floating disk, mage hand, mending, make whole, prestidigitation, mount, mastery, etc...
As an optimizer, I consider Unseen Servant to be a must take for Sorcerers, but not until your 5th first level spell known--maybe your 4th if you've got everything else covered. I'm not sure about Mount so much, when Phantom Steed is around, though.
And Cantrips, well, yeah, their whole purpose is to pamper yourself. Prestidigitation to clean and color, Light/Dancing Lights to avoid carrying a lantern, Mending to avoid manual labor fixing crap. Well, plus Ghost Sound, which is awesome and better than all the other Cantrips.
Summon Spells.
I find any type of summon spell to be excessively limiting. Not that you can't do that theme, but it makes the character a one trick pony.
Also, scrying is something I feel fits the wizard more. If you know you're likely to need it when you wake up in the morning, the sorcerer doesn't need to know it.
I have to more or less disagree with this. Summon spells are one of the best options for sorcerers simply because the ARE so versatile. Sorcerers have a pitiful selection of spells, and they have stunted casting (literally an entire level behind in spells known and per day), and cannot use Pearls or similar without house rulings, and they aren't very good at crafting spell-triggers, which essentially means their spells per day also stinks something terrible.
All this combined means sorcerers need to be willing to pick spells that...
1) Offer multiple rounds worth of benefit.
2) Don't need save DCs to be current to your level.
3) Be used for multiple purposes.
4) Be usable regularly in most encounters.
Summon spells fulfill all four of these requirements, and tend to be quite strong for most levels. Sorcerers also have excellent Charisma scores, which means that they excel at binding creatures as well, even more so than a wizard with all things being equal.
Summon Spells can be used for...
1) Battlefield control.
2) Sustainable damage dealing.
3) Expanding your spell options.
4) Overcoming certain traps or even temporarily riding them to safety.
For example, at 6th level, a sorcerer can cast summon monster III and summon a Dretch to cast stinking cloud and cause fear during the next 6 rounds. Past that, the dretch can make moving around difficult for enemies, and even tank certain creatures with its 18 HP, and DR 5/cold iron or good, while being immune to electricity and poison, and having heavy resistances for most other things.
Or with the same spell, he could summon an auroch that tramples everything in his charge-distance for 1d8+9 damage, which offers a save for half if you decide NOT to take an AoO against the critter, and no save if you do, making this a solid AoE spell that lasts until the creature is slain. Or he could summon a monitor lizard to milk for its poison, which remains after the lizard vanishes.
So that one spell has produced at least 3 different options, and most of them continue working even after the initial casting, allowing the sorcerer to either call additional enforcement, or conserve his casting as needed.
Further up the totem pole, summons become noticeably more useful to the sorcerer. Summon Monster VI can allow him to summon an erinyes, which is a good second-tier warrior with a few spell-like abilities which are good, but she also has constant true seeing, which means she can be summoned whenever the summoner needs to test something for being an illusion or transmutation. So with this one creature we have a flying archer, a spellcaster, a scout, etc.
Or he could summon a Succubus and get a mighty DC 22 Charm Monster, constant detect good, constant tongues (erasing the need for the summoner to need Tongues as the succubi can translate), access to a friendly Profane Gift, access to Detect Thoughts, Dominate Person, and Suggestion, through proxy. She also has Perception +21, and Bluff +27, which means you can call a skill monkey for you for a minute and some change.
Or a Lillend Azata. Anyone can look at her spell-like abilities and bardic music and see that being able to summon up a lillend is a cute trick for versatility. It includes being able to heal your party, fly around using inspire courage, turn your entire party invisible for 7 minutes, open doors with Knock, etc.
Next level you can summon a Vrock, giving you access to a meatshield, the heroism spell, and at-will CL 12 telekinesis, which alone is worth a 7th level spell slot to continue TK-Bombing enemies every round without wasting actions. It can hurl up to 120 lbs of material with the TK as well, and it's a flying creature. It also has some knowledge skills with a +15 or higher modifier.
A Bone Devil has constant fly, and more importantly, at-will dimensional anchor and wall of ice. This one creature can be used to stop people from escaping or using magic to move around via dimension door, teleport, etc. It's CL is also 12, which isn't far beneath your level (you're 14 when you can learn this spell). It also has a nice poison for you to use as well, if desired. The wall of ice allows you to very effectively cut battlefields into shapes that suit you, as wall of ice spam is hard to break through, because by the time you break through it, it is re-cast.
If you make it to 9th level spells, you get to add Astral Devas, Ghaeles, Trumpet Archons, Glabrezu, and Nelfeshnee to your arsenal. All of which come with spells, spell-like abilities, and so forth. In short, higher level summoning is like being able to poop out cohort-strength minions over and over again. For all of these options, you only have to sacrifice 1 spell. On a human racial sorcerer, you'd almost be a fool to NOT have these spells.
One of the other things about feather fall..
It can be used against things. It can't stop a sword swing, and it can't stop a flying creature.. but it can still stop a jumping creature. It can also stop a falling object.
It is only V too, so you can cast it while bound. I'm certain you can figure out ways to use that spell.. possibly something that causes a warp?
using the spell on an hekatonchiere using his planar jump will be price less(I know a VERY specificsituation but the faces would be priceless
]As an optimizer, I consider Unseen Servant to be a must take for Sorcerers,
Why would you consider Unseen Servant a must take? I haven't seen much use from the spell in recent years by any of the mage players in the group I play with. Is there some awesomeness that I'm missing?
I'm surprised noone talked about Contact Other Plane, a spell that requires an Int check to avoid a Charisma decrease.
Believe it or not, I actually like Contact Other Plane. Not because it's such an awesome spell, mind you; sorcerers especially feel the pinch with that one if they fail their intelligence check. I like Contact Other Plane because it harkens back to an age when magic was still somewhat unpredictable and dangerous; fireballs expanded to fill a certain area, and thus you had to be smart with them; haste aged the caster a year whenever cast.
I always enjoy dangerous magic more than the safe, cookie-cutter spells casters deal with nowadays; I might end up taking Contact Other Plane for my sorcerer when (if) he gets high enough level to cast it; fortunately, my character has a really good intelligence (16) to go with his awesome charisma, so he'll have a decent shot at not losing any charisma.
Since you aren't going to be using it too often just buy a couple of scrolls. You really think you'll use it more than 2 or 3 times?I'm surprised noone talked about Contact Other Plane, a spell that requires an Int check to avoid a Charisma decrease.Believe it or not, I actually like Contact Other Plane. Not because it's such an awesome spell, mind you; sorcerers especially feel the pinch with that one if they fail their intelligence check. I like Contact Other Plane because it harkens back to an age when magic was still somewhat unpredictable and dangerous; fireballs expanded to fill a certain area, and thus you had to be smart with them; haste aged the caster a year whenever cast.
I always enjoy dangerous magic more than the safe, cookie-cutter spells casters deal with nowadays; I might end up taking Contact Other Plane for my sorcerer when (if) he gets high enough level to cast it; fortunately, my character has a really good intelligence (16) to go with his awesome charisma, so he'll have a decent shot at not losing any charisma.
Maybe. It really depends on where the campaign goes, and what events transpire. It also depends on how my concept evolves as I gain in level; my sorcerer is big on gaining patronage from the Marid nobility, as well as dealing with many outsiders. Contact Other Plane seems like the best way for an arcane caster to do that on a regular basis. *shrug*
We'll see what happens. :)
Why would you consider Unseen Servant a must take? I haven't seen much use from the spell in recent years by any of the mage players in the group I play with. Is there some awesomeness that I'm missing?]As an optimizer, I consider Unseen Servant to be a must take for Sorcerers,
It's just so useful to have around, and it doesn't take any actions on your part to control except a free one to talk. It can trigger some traps, it can retrieve items for you from your packs, it can grab weapons that get disarmed (and either run off with them if they're your enemy's or return them to your PCs hands), it can pour curing potions down your hurt friend's throats, etc.
I can't think of much that could be a better and more versatile use of one of your last 1st level spell slots.
]It's just so useful to have around, and it doesn't take any actions on your part to control except a free one to talk. It can trigger some traps, it can retrieve items for you from your packs, it can grab weapons that get disarmed (and either run off with them if they're your enemy's or return them to your PCs hands), it can pour curing potions down your hurt friend's throats, etc.
I can't think of much that could be a better and more versatile use of one of your last 1st level spell slots.
It seems I've overlooked the usefulness of this spell. My uses of unseen Servant has been restricted to sweeping the hall, or opening the front door. Basically domestic stuff. I've never given much thought to what it was capable of as an adventuring spell. I'll have to add this one to my list of spells known.
Not to mention that it lasts hours per level, so it's Mage Hand on steroids. And we love mage hand
"... it can pour curing potions down your hurt friend's throats, etc."
This is a bit beyond what I would allow the servant to do...
But it is a very useful little guy. Open doors, close doors behind you, retrieve things.
Why can't it give people healing potions? It can get items from someone's bag. It can carry a bottle (healing potions aren't more than 20lbs., right? It can pour. What's the problem?
Why can't it give people healing potions? It can get items from someone's bag. It can carry a bottle (healing potions aren't more than 20lbs., right? It can pour. What's the problem?
No funnel?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think administering a potion is beyond the 'simple task' which the unseen servant is suggested capable of.
*shrug*
Get this potion out of my bag,
The green lidded one you idiot!,
Carry it over there to that guy,
Pour it down his throat,
Turn his head so it's facing up you idiot servant!
[ooc]potion spills all over the floor[ooc]
NO, tip his head back and let it flow down his throat!!
on unseen servant: if you're high enough level to cast it in the morning and have it hang around for the rest of the day and you end up getting captured and tied up or otherwise restrained, then you can talk your unseen servant through untying you or lifting the key from its resting place on the torturer's bench ect. very situational use, but not one you'll regret having it for.
I think administering a potion is beyond the 'simple task' which the unseen servant is suggested capable of.
*shrug*
Get this potion out of my bag,
The green lidded one you idiot!,
Carry it over there to that guy,
Pour it down his throat,
Turn his head so it's facing up you idiot servant!
[ooc]potion spills all over the floor[ooc]
NO, tip his head back and let it flow down his throat!!
Assume it's a very young child and make the orders simple. Nothing says you can't give it a series of very simple orders in order to do a more complex one.
1) Get the green bottle from my bag.
2) Carry it over to Downed guy.
3) Turn downed guy over.
4) Tilt downed guy's head back.
5) Open downed guy's mouth.
6) Open potion bottle.
7) Pour potion into guy's mouth.
What it means is it's not something very useful though. Since by the time you issue orders for 7 rounds, he's probably bled out. If he's stable, that's ok. Either way, it's faster to just do it yourself. The only time it's useful is if you can't get to the guy for some reason (chained up, he's at the bottom of a 20 foot pit, etc).
I think administering a potion is beyond the 'simple task' which the unseen servant is suggested capable of.
While your story is amusing, I don't see how that isn't a simple task. You seem to be acting like this is some sort of alien being that barely knows what a Human is (despite knowing what cleaning and sewing is) and has the intelligence of a smart dog (that knows how to clean and sew).
Ok, fair enough, I asked ;)
Plus, we kill every gnome or small child that interacts with us (since they are all just gnome illusionists in disguise anyways) because when he runs, you are more likely to find a community of good aligned demons than a single gnome that isn't going to turn on you. But that is another story...........
Ah, I see the gnomes have struck again. Evil little buggers.
I learned my gnome hatred from WoW, but that's a whole 'nother story.
Plus, we kill every gnome or small child that interacts with us (since they are all just gnome illusionists in disguise anyways) because when he runs, you are more likely to find a community of good aligned demons than a single gnome that isn't going to turn on you. But that is another story...........
Ah, I see the gnomes have struck again. Evil little buggers.
I learned my gnome hatred from WoW, but that's a whole 'nother story.
My GM hates gnomes, and it comes from what they did in dragonlance. but that's another story...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think administering a potion is beyond the 'simple task' which the unseen servant is suggested capable of.While your story is amusing, I don't see how that isn't a simple task. You seem to be acting like this is some sort of alien being that barely knows what a Human is (despite knowing what cleaning and sewing is) and has the intelligence of a smart dog (that knows how to clean and sew).
Ok, fair enough, I asked ;)
That is the problem with words like 'simple'.
I think administering a potion is beyond the 'simple task' which the unseen servant is suggested capable of.
*shrug*
Get this potion out of my bag,
The green lidded one you idiot!,
Carry it over there to that guy,
Pour it down his throat,
Turn his head so it's facing up you idiot servant!
[ooc]potion spills all over the floor[ooc]
NO, tip his head back and let it flow down his throat!!
I don't see fetching a potion any more complicated then say fetching water for a bath. From the description of the spell that seems within the capabilities of the unseen servant. If the action required say a healing check DC 11 or higher I would agree with you.
I have always assumed a level of shared understanding between the unseen servant and the caster. So when the caster says fetch the healing potion out of my bag and feed it to gruf. It knows what potion to look for, who gruf is and what the act of feeding entails. I assume this mainly because the spell doesn't indicate the need for complicated instructions and it would make the fetching ability useless. Since you would have to micromanage it at every step of the way. Any one that has ever done a project with someone who doesn't know the tools your working with can understand what I am talking about.
I ultimately decided to change out one of my first level spells for Unseen Servant. In addition to the uses already listed, I've found the Unseen servant makes an excellent scroll caddy and torch bearer. Plus its worked great with loading my light crossbow for me while I'm running about, thus saving me a move action.
Good spell.
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My favorite use for unseen servant is to have it carry my sorcerer's spear. The sorcerer turns invisible, and the 8 foot long wooden shaft CLEARLY shows where he wants people to think he is.
My favorite use for unseen servant is to have it carry my sorcerer's spear. The sorcerer turns invisible, and the 8 foot long wooden shaft CLEARLY shows where he wants people to think he is.
That is awesome. consider it stolen :)
The only bad thing about unseen servant is it's base speed is 15ft, and it has to stay within range, but as long as you don't take it on long hikes it's pretty cool.
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Summon Spells.I find any type of summon spell to be excessively limiting. Not that you can't do that theme, but it makes the character a one trick pony.
Also, scrying is something I feel fits the wizard more. If you know you're likely to need it when you wake up in the morning, the sorcerer doesn't need to know it.
I have to more or less disagree with this. Summon spells are one of the best options for sorcerers simply because the ARE so versatile. Sorcerers have a pitiful selection of spells, and they have stunted casting (literally an entire level behind in spells known and per day), and cannot use Pearls or similar without house rulings, and they aren't very good at crafting spell-triggers, which essentially means their spells per day also stinks something terrible.
All this combined means sorcerers need to be willing to pick spells that...
1) Offer multiple rounds worth of benefit.
2) Don't need save DCs to be current to your level.
3) Be used for multiple purposes.
4) Be usable regularly in most encounters.Summon spells fulfill all four of these requirements, and tend to be quite strong for most levels. Sorcerers also have excellent Charisma scores, which means that they excel at binding creatures as well, even more so than a wizard with all things being equal.
Summon Spells can be used for...
1) Battlefield control.
2) Sustainable damage dealing.
3) Expanding your spell options.
4) Overcoming certain traps or even temporarily riding them to safety.For example, at 6th level, a sorcerer can cast summon monster III and summon a Dretch to cast stinking cloud and cause fear during the next 6 rounds. Past that, the dretch can make moving around difficult for enemies, and even tank certain creatures with its 18 HP, and DR 5/cold iron or good, while being immune to electricity and poison, and having heavy resistances...
Summon long post. ;)
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I would add Identify to the list of "not for sorcerers". Most GMs don't even make you make Spellcraft checks to identify items, and even if they do, this doesn't let you do anything Detect Magic doesn't already (and you should most definitely have Detect Magic) but with a bonus.
You should also avoid any spell that mentions something that reminds you of another class. Ki Arrow and Jury-Rig are the most obvious exceptions-- a monk or gunslinger respectively taking a 1-level sorcerer dip might grab them, but a full-on sorcerer has no use for them.