As to PCs taking on armies, I have had that happen in a campaign way back almost 10 years ago when 3rd ed was still new. The party was around 12th level. They effectively took on a 10,000 man army and won because there was nothing that could really touch them.
Drunk with their power they claimed a small kingdom and then went to war again, this time with some backup.
The opposing army had some powerful creatures in it this time and gave them a run for their money.
It *is* cool (though very far fetched) for a party of PCs to smash an army.... once. After that there will be heroes on the other side of the coin flocking to some lord's banner in an attempt at glory and what not to take them down.
And the monster manuals are full of high powered monsters that could be leading and/or serving in the opposing army as well.
Putting PCs up against a horde of 1-3rd level NPCs is really in a realm of "don't bother rolling dice" to me. Sprinkle in appropriate challenges and the battle itself becomes the backdrop with the real challenges becoming the majority of the encounters.
Why is wiping out an army murder? Aren't they like soldiers whos job it is to fight and probably die?
Lets say that very army attacks a city the heroes are sworn to defend. How is it the biggest mistake for them to make to destroy it? Its their job!
Black and White again?
And your "Then somebody is gonna take revenge on you" is also very theoretical. Assassins Guilds would hunt you if they have a good reason for them to do so. The old wizard who has never cared for politics but his tombs will remain at what he did...
There are quite a few wars in fantasy worlds that haven't been horribly avenged by other adventure groups... because...
I wonder that, if in the Core Rules under Alignment, the publishers should have replaced the word 'killing' with 'murder' under the Good Vs Evil section?
No, because murder is an illegal killing. Offing chelaxian slavers to free the slaves for example is a good act, despite there being laws against that sort of thing.
It also depends on the culture. What is good in our culture can be considered evil in another, and vice versa.
It's hard to see outside of our own culture, as that is how we are programmed and raised.
Freeing slaves may seem like a good act to you, but to the other culture may be a pinnacle act of evil and injustice.
Point of view =)
So are you going to profit the army to death?
Become the greatest warrior or master of war there ever was, by being a craftsman?
No, the thread was about Craft & Profession. Two skills which are often entirely irrelevant because the ability modifiers of the PCs alone can mean professional level competency in most everything. A cleric with a +4 Wisdom? Same as a 1st level NPC with 1 rank in his class skill in Profession, except its to every profession. Congrats, your cleric is a sailor.
Human Wizard with a +5 Intelligence modifier? He's so smart that he can walk into a forge, stand next to the common blacksmith next to him, ask to buy a set of masterwork tools, and him and his familiar can hammer out a suit of full plate mail without a single rank in Craft (Armorsmithing). Next week he bakes pies. The next week he decides to paint portraits. The week after that? He sculpting ice for the duke's ball because it amuses him.
The end of the argument, that powerful pcs can't reliably take whole armies, has not even been remotely reached.
Also not considered, is that if a pc or a group of pcs are ready to wage war on entire realms, and kill 10k people, the heroes of yesteryear and the other powerful adventuring groups may also come to oppose the characters. Veritable A teams can assembled of past and present heroes. From heads of churches, to the best knights of the land, to groups of elite assassins, to barbarian warlords, to scout commandoes, to Musashi-like swordsman, insanely good elven archers and semi-retired court wizards that haven't raided a dungeon in some time, but which can summon truly terrifying monsters, break down protections and force saves versus disintegration.
I agree that high level characters vs high level characters is an entirely different matter. The moment you start dragging equal or near equal level characters into the army's mix, the moment it stops being "can a 10th level PC defeat an army" and instead "can a 10th level PC defeat and army and their assortment of high level individuals".
Also, it is no more murder to defeat a whole army single handedly than it is to defeat the army with another army. Either way, the army is there to fight, and I guess it depends on what they're fighting over for morality to come into it. This was just army vs army of 1 here. This morality nonsense is irrelevant. Though I will admit that the army that mdt describes - with all their accumulated magical wealth - would make an appealing target for dragons, wizards, or other unscrupulous individuals to raid or terrorize to rob. I mean, if you've got lots of 1st-3rd level NPC classed characters walking around armed in really valuable loot due to GM-fiat, then I have to wonder why the local evil wizard hasn't hazed the army once or twice unexpectedly, just to run in and grab everything he could before teleporting away with a massive haul of easily obtained loot.
Dnd is about the heroes, and if the players want to be highly active villains, heroes will emerge. If some characters did wipe out or rout an army of thousands, it could be the worse move they ever made.
So exactly where did you get some idea that the players are being the villains? Hell, James Jacobs wrote an adventure that is essentially the party vs an army of evil hobgoblins bent on religion driven raids and warfare. He doesn't expect you to fight the whole army by yourself, 'cause it's only a 5th level game at the start, but goes to about 12th-15th level, but by then the army is pretty much dealt with due to your continued interference plus an existing army and what-not.
So if the PCs are strong enough, why would stopping said army be evil, just 'cause they decided to put their staff down and shout "You shall not pass"?
Now the sheer scale of their murder really could also attract a lot of allies, evil underlings and evil adventurers to their group as well, but not if they get wiped out by other pros first. Acting with and as a part of an army, or following the sacrifice of many men to weaken the "army takers" prior to the end-play.
See above.
I've had players exploit oversights before. It keeps you on your toes ;)
By the rules it appears both ways can be argued correctly in terms of crafting. What way the GM allows is up to the GM. I'd lean more towards following the existing items pricing as opposed to the crafting because I feel that the oversight would allow for cheaply made items compared to their power level but that's just me.
In my opinion, the price for energy resistances in the core rulebook are somewhat overpriced, given the fact that it is a common buff that has a long duration and more classes have access to it than don't (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, paladin, and ranger, vs barbarian, bard, fighter, rogue, and monk), and will generally be cast over the cheap enhancement because it reaches 20 and 30 at 7th and 11th.
Resist 10 is a good counter to low-level blasts, and makes it possible for you to ignore small mundane amounts of fire or cold damage. Not everyone is going to want it, at low levels because even at +4,500 gp, at low levels that's a lot of cash to invest on the chance you will be facing that particular element, and that's not even counting the cost of the armor itself.
Because of this, not only do I use the prime rules for determining its cost, but I encourage players to consider picking it up when it becomes something that won't break their budget. If players don't prep defensively, they will absolutely die in my games, and I teach them tactics through observation, and through conversations when the game isn't going on. Whipping players with kobolds through tactics is a good way to teach tactics. You can always tell those guys who've played in easy tactics-lite sessions when they are freaking out because CR 1/4 kobolds are owning their face with their nets and their alchemist fires and their tunnels and their traps and such. It's really easy to find the guy used to brute forcing it, and somewhat amusing to see their faces when the brute force meets hardened kobold commandos.
I've also had players use crafting and profession to well exceed the amount of gold that they should have been carrying, with the intention to purchase magic items and/or craft magic items that far exceed what they should normally have.
Most magic items are mild. I haven't found anything that really disrupts the game in any really meaningful way; especially if the rules are followed with its creation (PCs need to remember things like material components being multiplied by 50-100 for example).
If you are a stickler for the rules you have to get very creative as a GM to find ways to circumvent this (in which case many will call foul).
I had a guy playing a psionicist once who did jsut this very thing, had 5x the amount of gold he should have had and had items taht were meant for a much higher level (back in my days of not saying no) and he single handedly wrecked the campaign with his power. The end result was a dragon ate him and stole his stuff for his hoard. (his reputation began to proceed him)
I'm curious as to how he did this. However, regardless of how, I will say this: If resist energy being affordable will break your game, then you immediately lose some of my GMing respect. There are far bigger fish in the ocean to be worried about that guppy. I mean, it's entirely legal and easy to get free wishes at 13th level if you have a wizard or sorcerer in the party. Fortunately, even THAT isn't broken, since Paizo nerfed Wish to heck (not that I mind).
I'm curious as to how he not only amassed 5x his expected wealth with craft/profession, unless it was making art objects with fabricate (or the psionic equivalent), but even in that case, I wonder if it was really worth ganking him with a dragon just because he had more gear. I stick very, very close to WBL with my groups, and I yet I've rarely found a time when their coming up with some way to amass more loot through the game into unplayability. That includes at least once when my players basically had access to infinite money, and I was like "if you want to, I won't stop you".
Said player quit the campaign after that though furious. Kind of a hard spot to be in though, when you have a grotesquely overpowered character (through the obtaining of items he should not be wielding at his level) wrecking the campaign. The only thing that *could* challenge him and his small army of retainers was a much more powerful dragon. (and it made sense)
I suppose he was crafting most of his stuff? I mean, in core Pathfinder, the maximum you can reliably buy in a metropolis is 16,000 gp, which is +2 weapons, +3 armors, +4 resistance items, and most medium wondrous items. Everything else either has a random % of showing up Diablo-style in the markets, or you have to acquire it through one of the following means.
1) Crafting.
2) NPC commission (which may lead or require questing at his behest for the favor he is going to grant).
3) Adventuring and finding it as treasure.
10th level fighter is going to have 10th level help killing the army. I'll agree that he would lose if he got gummed up against 100 archers. Unfortunately, he's going to be enlarged hasted pouncing flying dimensional dooring AC 30 into the middle of the archers camp with a silence 15' radius at 3am. By the time they figure out what's going on their morale is broken or the gm is doing it wrong.
Agreed, Cranewings. This is one of the reasons I said that heaven forbid a 10th level PARTY go up against the army. The sheer amount of dirty tactical shenanigans they can pull is incredible. The entire party could literally tear the camp apart from the inside out, or just be funny and scatter pieces of paper covered in explosive runes all over the camp, so you get a chain-explosion of doom in the morning. The silence 15ft is a perfect example of how amazingly funny and overpowering the party would be to the army. The fighter and everything near him makes absolutely no sound, so he is more or less free to slaughter anyone in his path, no one can so much as gurgle or cry for mommy. :P
He was a 9th level character with magic items designed for 16th and higher.
He would craft the item, then use profession mercantile to up the price and find someone to buy it at the inflated price. If that didn't work he would hire henchmen and minions to corner the market and up the price that way.
That's how he ended up having 5x the amount of treasure that a normal 9th level character should have.
He would use that wealth to obtain items that were for 16th level and higher sources. When I tried to circumvent it, I'd have a 45 minute rules lawyer session on my hands about how I was breaking the rules and lame (to condense the argument lol). It was very disrupting.
When he wanted to take a lot of time off to craft and I'd throw hooks at them to get them to leave, he'd get mad. Then he decided he'd hire artisans of his own since he had a small stash squirreled away and using mercantile was able to talk their craft price down and max his return value, so that when I'd make them leave, people were still crafting his items that he would turn around and sell for very high prices.
He would then either go out of his way to find a high level caster to craft the item for him, or obtain ways to quest and send high level minions out to quest for the items using his wealth.
Just saying no you can't find that would again result in a 45 minute rules lawyer discussion and ultimately how I was being a "bad DM" (the trump card of D&D players everywhere) by railroading him and his ideas.
The end result was a 9th level psion wielding +4 and +5 items and wondrous items that a 9th level character shouldn't have, and in the combinations that he had made it so challenging him with monsters appropriately was very hard.
To top it off he would share his wealth with the party and gear them up so that they were also hideously powerful.
Just saying no was not working. It was becoming disruptive to the game.
So a dragon appropriate for a 16th level or so character descended... wanting to add to its hoarde. And it did. And he left the group afterward.
Bad DMing? Maybe. All I know is that from that experience, I am very careful about the intention of players who want to craft to make "extra money on the side" because it can disrupt the economy of the game and ultimately the balance of the game if its left unchecked.
One thing that I do not do any longer is play power games or DM power games, and while crafting/profession is not in and of itself breaking balance or bad, if a player wants to abuse it, and then spend an hour arguing about why he should be able to, it can be unbalancing if allowed, and at the least a game stopping annoyance to have to argue it.
The ultimate purpose that his crafting and profession skills had were to give him more money than he should have had for his level to purchase items that he shouldn't have been able to access at his level, and spun in a way that to say no made it railroading him.
Ashiel?
What magic items did I give the army? Slings? They're little pieces of leather. Less than a couple of gold. Bullets for the slings? No, also cheap.
Flasks of acid? Not magic. 20gp.
Flasks of alchemists fire? Not magic. 30gp.
So, as you, I assumed mundane equipment for them, less than 250gp.
So where is this accusation of me outfiting the army with tons of magic coming from? Please point it out. Because frankly, I see me showing you that 1 level 10 fighter, built by the rules as written, and not your houserules uses up over half his wealth to be immune to alchemists fire and acid and have adamantine armor. And then he's got a low AC cause he can't afford much else, and get's taken out by mooks. Lowly level 1 mooks.
A level 10 fighter, built to rules as written, is going to get killed by 500 mooks, much less 10,000. And then they're going to sell his armor and go hire 300 more mooks for the price. Or the king will mount the adamantine armor in his trophy room, one or the other.
I suppose I could just say "I cast burning hands, it does 5 damage" and leave it at that. But I don't. My wizard reaches across the infinite planes to draw upon the purest of elemental fires, directly from the hearth of the overlord of the City of Brass and uses that to blast his foes. Likewise, I don't "cast sleep" I draw upon the arcane secrets taught to mortals by the god Hypnos (or insert other god here) to spread his blessed slumber and bequeath that slumber upon my foes. And when my necromancer(s) cast create undead, anyone nearby can hear the faint noise of a soul being ripped from its after life and tortured and twisted and being forced to partner with the stuff that is the literal antithesis of life in a twisted mockery that even the insane and demented know have no natural existence on this earth.
That's great and all, but fluff is fluff. It has nothing to do with the game. You can use the Barbarian PC class to play an effective Samurai without ever touching the APG. Mechanics =/= Fluff. Fluff is both meaningful and meaningless. It is worth everything and nothing.
See, while you're wizard is apparently drawing on the divine power of some god with his spell, my wizard might be reaching into the mind of someone and psychically suggesting for them to enter a deep sleep, while somebody else may have a wizard who traps the target in a dream-state, rendering them comatose as they experience a fake non-existent world while life moves on around them.
In all three cases, they make a will save and end up unconscious until either the duration runs out or someone shakes them back to reality. Likewise, your fireballs might be red, green, blue, or appear as a dragon's head breathing fire into the area, or even appear as a raw sphere of shimmering energy that erupts into super-concentrated heat. In all cases, it has a range of 400 + 40ft/level, reflex for half, deals fire damage, 20 ft radius spread.
You have fluff, and you have what it does. The fact is, there is actually very little to no fluff. You can make up fluff as you see fit. I mean, you obviously found it important to make up fluff just to argue some mechanic that was fluff-less. Problem is, fluff is useless in this discussion.
Is all that written into the spells? You may not think so, but I would disagree. I see magic as a wondrous and marvelous force, far far more than just a combination of a spell slot, and a few components. Its a force that manipulates the very universe itself, and in a world where good and evil are very strongly defined, almost to the point of being tangible, if a spell carries the evil tag, that is because it is unspeakably evil, its very existence profanes all that is good and right, and its use, well its use is a terrible, terrible thing, even if done for all the right reasons. Its all wrapped up in those 6 little characters that comprise the [evil] tag.
Yeah, yeah. I appreciate your flowery words. Unfortunately, nothing actually supports them. See, there's nothing that actually supports your view of this supposedly unspeakable evil. There's nothing in the game that even says that casting a spell with a subtype changes your character or influences their alignment at all. I could invent some fluff that says that by casting fireball, I am harnessing the raw energies of the elemental plane of fire and transforming myself into a fire elemental to harness the power, and over time I will become a fire elemental as the power permeates my being...but I don't, at least not without a house rule.
Also, good and evil are not very strongly defined in 3.5 or Pathfinder. It's actually horribly defined, because it constantly contradicts itself. Still to this day, I fail to understand why taking Neutral energy from a Neutral plane and stuffing it into a Neutral object creates an EVIL creature. Especially when said evil creature is literally incapable of making decisions or choices or even taking actions without being told to do so.
So, I ask you, why do you have to invent nonsense just to argue? This black & white nonsense isn't good roleplaying, and the narrating extra crap into spells just to try and make them nastier is cute and probably seems cool if you want to spin some version of the spell in that way, but it is only superficial.
Just like when the grand vizier manipulating a lowly stable servant via charm person gazes deep into his eyes, suggesting his desires, while rubbing his thumb and index finger together in a twisting motion, bending the servant's will like a tangible string with the strength of his own intention; which is different from the sultry sea witch who speaks in a hauntingly erotic voice while touching herself indecently when she uses charm person. Both, however, are using charm person and using vocal and somatic components for their spell. Both have the same effect.
You know Ashiel, don't even bother answering. I just finished reading the rest of your posts. You saw you could not win the argument by the rules, and so started spouting off about how I was equipping the army with tons of magic loot by GM fiat. Sheesh, not even worth arguing with you anymore. Go make up some more stories about someone elses posts.
And here we are getting again into a bashing contest with mechanical / logical thinker vs abstract artistic thinker.
He was a 9th level character with magic items designed for 16th and higher.
He would craft the item, then use profession mercantile to up the price and find someone to buy it at the inflated price. If that didn't work he would hire henchmen and minions to corner the market and up the price that way.
That's how he ended up having 5x the amount of treasure that a normal 9th level character should have.
He would use that wealth to obtain items that were for 16th level and higher sources. When I tried to circumvent it, I'd have a 45 minute rules lawyer session on my hands about how I was breaking the rules and lame (to condense the argument lol). It was very disrupting.
When he wanted to take a lot of time off to craft and I'd throw hooks at them to get them to leave, he'd get mad. Then he decided he'd hire artisans of his own since he had a small stash squirreled away and using mercantile was able to talk their craft price down and max his return value, so that when I'd make them leave, people were still crafting his items that he would turn around and sell for very high prices.
He would then either go out of his way to find a high level caster to craft the item for him, or obtain ways to quest and send high level minions out to quest for the items using his wealth.
Just saying no you can't find that would again result in a 45 minute rules lawyer discussion and ultimately how I was being a "bad DM" (the trump card of D&D players everywhere) by railroading him and his ideas.
The end result was a 9th level psion wielding +4 and +5 items and wondrous items that a 9th level character shouldn't have, and in the combinations that he had made it so challenging him with monsters appropriately was very hard.
To top it off he would share his wealth with the party and gear them up so that they were also hideously powerful.
Just saying no was not working. It was becoming disruptive to the game.
So a dragon appropriate for a 16th level or so character descended... wanting to add to its...
This is a great example for this thread. Why Profession is not a good still. The vast majority of this post begins with him blatantly making up rules that aren't in the core. That being said, don't feel too bad. Back in the day I experienced a similar issue with a player who was always trying to abuse the item creation rules, which at the time I was not as familiar with as I am now. However, because of that player, I made an effort to make sure I knew them and how they work. Now I can answer most questions about item creation off the top of my head, and make use of it frequently in my campaigns as both a GM and a Player.
There is always a silver lining. ^-^
Ashiel?
What magic items did I give the army? Slings? They're little pieces of leather. Less than a couple of gold. Bullets for the slings? No, also cheap.
Flasks of acid? Not magic. 20gp.
Flasks of alchemists fire? Not magic. 30gp.
So, as you, I assumed mundane equipment for them, less than 250gp.
So where is this accusation of me outfiting the army with tons of magic coming from? Please point it out. Because frankly, I see me showing you that 1 level 10 fighter, built by the rules as written, and not your houserules uses up over half his wealth to be immune to alchemists fire and acid and have adamantine armor. And then he's got a low AC cause he can't afford much else, and get's taken out by mooks. Lowly level 1 mooks.
Mainly because you kept complaining that supposedly the army would have some sort of crazy awesome counter-magics or that it wasn't fair to suggest that the PC would have magic items but the army would be mundane. That's pretty much it. Sounded to me like you were suggesting the army should have magic items too. I agree. Potions and partially charged wands are peachy. :)
Also, it sounds like you pretty much use the same tactics I use with NPC mooks. Spiffy. :)
A level 10 fighter, built to rules as written, is going to get killed by 500 mooks, much less 10,000. And then they're going to sell his armor and go hire 300 more mooks for the price. Or the king will mount the adamantine armor in his trophy room, one or the other.
I said the adamantine armor was optional, actually. But ok, gimme a sec and I'll give you a quick rundown of what I'd outfit a generic fighter with.
Wealth = 62,000 gp
+1 Intelligent Melee Weapon: 3,500 gp (casts enlarge person 3/day)
+1 Composite Longbow (+4): 2,800 gp
+2 Full Plate w/ Kilt: 5,670 gp
+2 Shield: 4,170 gp
+2 Cloak of Resistance: 4,000 gp
Handy Haversack: 2,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +1: 2,000 gp
Ring of Protection +1: 2,000 gp
Necklace of Fireballs V: 5,400 gp
Elemental Gem (2): 4,500 gp
Hat of Disguise: 1,800 gp
Hmmm, I've still got 24,160 gp left to spend. Maybe I should get a lesser cloak of displacement of resistance +1 since the displacement makes the fighter immune to sneak attacks. *ponders*
I'll have to figure out what to spend the other 24,160 gp on a bit later...
But at the moment the Fighter is sporting a nice solid 26 AC while enlarged, and AC 28 when not enlarged. Haven't decided a spec for him, but Fighting Defensively will be an option regardless of spec vs weak foes, so he should hit a nice AC 30 when not enlarged. I think I will probably buy him a reach weapon, 'cause everyone should have one. Hmmm...
In our group, he would likely have a party member to help him cut the costs in half. One of the reasons I usually prefer rangers or paladins, since they can craft their own gear.
Small party vs Big Army. Or, Quality vs Quantity.
I should note that my example was a 3.5 game and not a PF game. The rules were very very abstract and the player in question was an "A" grade rules-lawyer who could argue a rule one way and win and then turn around and argue the same rule another way and win.
There was indeed a lot of twisting going on.
Fluff is a large portion of what determines if something is good or evil. If you want to take all context and fluff away from a statement and say "Why is this evil?" Its a hard question to answer without resorting to "Because the rules say so." However, there should never be an in game example where there's absolutely no context. That is what I'm trying to show.
Problem is, it's not true. Good is clearly altruistic. It's merciful. It's putting others before yourself. It is going out of your way to be better to others. Neutral is generally indifference. Evil is selfishness, cruelty. It is putting yourself before others.
Sean K. noted the hypothetical spell as evil because a good guy has to die to cast it. You gotta sacrifice an innocent/good aligned character. That was his reasoning behind it. He explained that was why it had the Evil descriptor. Yet we can demonstrate that this creates continuity problems if placed in different circumstances. Circumstances wreak hell on black & white systems, because circumstances are the anti-black & white morality. As has been noted before, the only difference between killing in self defense and killing in murder is circumstances.
See, I prefer a more holistic viewpoint, which is how the alignment system is SUPPOSED TO WORK. Even the alignment system describes that the overall flow of the alignment is what determines alignment, and that intentions and how you carry yourself determine your alignment, not individual acts. It is a matter of the whole.
And as to there being nothing in the game that explicitly states that committing an act explicitly marked as evil counts as an "evil act" maybe you're right, maybe it isn't stated. As I've said before, try using a bit of common sense with the rules, or a bit of comprehension of the english language and grammar and you'll get much further.
Touting "common sense" is just an insulting remark hurled by the commonly insensible. I have comprehension of the english language and grammar. That's why I don't buy into your fluff, because I can read it and see what is and is not there, without adding a lot of extra stuff that isn't part of it.
An act of evil = evil act. Of is a preposition that makes the word evil modify act. In the second sentence, evil is already modifying act and so the word of is not needed. They're different ways of saying the same thing, both grammatically correct.
It never says that it is an act of evil. All it says is that it determines what spells clerics can cast and how they react to other spells. You are again adding stuff that isn't there. Maybe you should re-evaluate your reading skills instead of remarking on others'.
And here we are getting again into a bashing contest with mechanical / logical thinker vs abstract artistic thinker.
For the record, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. It's entirely possible to have an artistic mind while being a logical thinker. They are no more opposed than roleplaying and mechanics are. They compliment each other well.
So,
The above guy, if we use him as he is now. Then if our troops all have either a flask of acid, or an alchemists fire (say half each), then as soon as he kills 2-3 of them and shrugs off some arrows, then 50 of each throw a flask at him (after someone signals a withdraw from him). Note that as soon as they do this, he's dead. Even if they miss him with the flask, he takes 1 pt of splash damage from each flask/fire. That's a minimum of 100 pts in one round.
If he crushes a gem to get an elemental, the elemental draws all the archer attacks, and it dies in one round (100 archers). The elemental doesn't have a high AC.
The pike wielders can charge him, same reach, no AoO. Once flanked, his effective AC drops to 24. The pike men probably hit still on a 20, but it's important to note.
He has no defense against the archers, who all hit on a 20, which is about 5 a round. Average damage with shortbows, 3.5*5 = 17.5 or 17. Long bows would do 4.5*5 = 24.5 or 24.
The grunts who can't reach him would pull out their slings and throw stones at him, so say 200 of them, so 10 hit per round for 1d4+2, or 3.5. That's another 35 hp.
I just don't see how he's going to survive, even if you spend the rest of your 25K. But go for it.
If he decides to stand back and shoot with his bow, he's going to kill a few, but the grunts can charge in and start slinging stones or charge him directly (enlarging while shooting the bow is useless, the arrows return to normal when they leave his body). Either way, if he's in range to use his +4 bow (which would also lower his AC by 3 or 4, depending on the size of shield, you didn't specify) then he's even easier to hit. So he'd have a 25 un-enlarged, or a 21 enlarged. If you have him use his reach weapon enlarged, he also has a 21 (again no shield). Once he's flanked, he's down to 19, and guys are hitting him on a 16 or better.
They do not have to be mutually exclusive, but I find they often are. Many people cannot think in both realms as well as they can one or the other (and often when two people of opposed thinking processes meet, you will get arguments lol)
I was a very logical-minded person until my mid 20s. I am a software engineer now (very logic minded) and also a writer, artist, and musician (abstract minded) so I can combine the two, but I can see so many times where someone can not (and up until my mid 20s I could never understand an abstract thinker or where they were coming from because it didn't fit into one of my neat flowcharted methodologies)
I'd say this thread is about to descend into rules lawyering, but that advice is few days too late...
@mdt: Anchovies, man. Anchovies. I mean it seems you're dealing with someone misreading the rules rather than a personal preference of how said rules are applied by an individual DM, but anchovies!
Ewww,
I hate anchovies. Seriously. Unless they're in a ceasar salad dressing, then they're just hunky dorie.
So,
The above guy, if we use him as he is now. Then if our troops all have either a flask of acid, or an alchemists fire (say half each), then as soon as he kills 2-3 of them and shrugs off some arrows, then 50 of each throw a flask at him (after someone signals a withdraw from him). Note that as soon as they do this, he's dead. Even if they miss him with the flask, he takes 1 pt of splash damage from each flask/fire. That's a minimum of 100 pts in one round.If he crushes a gem to get an elemental, the elemental draws all the archer attacks, and it dies in one round (100 archers). The elemental doesn't have a high AC.
The pike wielders can charge him, same reach, no AoO. Once flanked, his effective AC drops to 24. The pike men probably hit still on a 20, but it's important to note.
He has no defense against the archers, who all hit on a 20, which is about 5 a round. Average damage with shortbows, 3.5*5 = 17.5 or 17. Long bows would do 4.5*5 = 24.5 or 24.
The grunts who can't reach him would pull out their slings and throw stones at him, so say 200 of them, so 10 hit per round for 1d4+2, or 3.5. That's another 35 hp.
I just don't see how he's going to survive, even if you spend the rest of your 25K. But go for it.
If he decides to stand back and shoot with his bow, he's going to kill a few, but the grunts can charge in and start slinging stones or charge him directly (enlarging while shooting the bow is useless, the arrows return to normal when they leave his body). Either way, if he's in range to use his +4 bow (which would also lower his AC by 3 or 4, depending on the size of shield, you didn't specify) then he's even easier to hit. So he'd have a 25 un-enlarged, or a 21 enlarged. If you have him use his reach weapon enlarged, he also has a 21 (again no shield). Once he's flanked, he's down to 19, and guys are hitting him on a 16 or better.
The fact that you have basically asked me to ignore the item creation rules and just go with generic junk is going to have a profound effect with a Fighter. Fighter is absolutely the worst class to take into this sort of environment because of their lack of options. They have to be able to make up for their deficiencies with effects. It just goes back to Fighters can't have nice things.
However, I think the other 25,000 gp would probably have towards avoiding being a Fighter, since literally nothing about being a Fighter helps in warfare combat. Only skirmish combat. I will have to think about this. In fact, this Fighter wouldn't be able to survive in any of my own games against CR equivalent encounters with such small options. I'm not sure he'd ever get to take an action with all the rampant CC.
One of the main strategies I would have used would have been arrows of detonation, which are basically exploding arrows (ala fireball), but now I'll probably have to resort to ranks in UMD and a wand, which is a less cool (if admittedly cheaper) alternative.
They do not have to be mutually exclusive, but I find they often are. Many people cannot think in both realms as well as they can one or the other (and often when two people of opposed thinking processes meet, you will get arguments lol)
I was a very logical-minded person until my mid 20s. I am a software engineer now (very logic minded) and also a writer, artist, and musician (abstract minded) so I can combine the two, but I can see so many times where someone can not (and up until my mid 20s I could never understand an abstract thinker or where they were coming from because it didn't fit into one of my neat flowcharted methodologies)
Kind of the opposite here. I grew up pretty much engrossed in artistic thoughts and activities. Drawing, painting, crafting, etc. I loved stories, and I really got into D&D because of it. D&D also made me get an interest in writing, and eventually discover it as my favorite artistic media. But eventually, through discussing stuff like D&D, my logical awareness woke up. I started looking at things in a new clear way.
Now I put a lot more stock in reason, and have difficulties understanding why others don't. I actually wish more things read like C++ code, because computer code is seriously just logic as a language. It's kind of beautiful really. You could tell a story with it, and many people do...
I didn't ask you to ignore the item creation rules.
I did ask you to use the items already present in the magic item section if they were existent.
Ashiel,
May I point out that if your fighters are able to destroy 10,000 level 1 characters at 10th level by using the item creation rules the way you are using them, then perhaps, just perhaps, you are not really using them the way they are intended or in a balanced manner?
So,
The above guy, if we use him as he is now. Then if our troops all have either a flask of acid, or an alchemists fire (say half each), then as soon as he kills 2-3 of them and shrugs off some arrows, then 50 of each throw a flask at him (after someone signals a withdraw from him). Note that as soon as they do this, he's dead. Even if they miss him with the flask, he takes 1 pt of splash damage from each flask/fire. That's a minimum of 100 pts in one round.If he crushes a gem to get an elemental, the elemental draws all the archer attacks, and it dies in one round (100 archers). The elemental doesn't have a high AC.
The pike wielders can charge him, same reach, no AoO. Once flanked, his effective AC drops to 24. The pike men probably hit still on a 20, but it's important to note.
He has no defense against the archers, who all hit on a 20, which is about 5 a round. Average damage with shortbows, 3.5*5 = 17.5 or 17. Long bows would do 4.5*5 = 24.5 or 24.
The grunts who can't reach him would pull out their slings and throw stones at him, so say 200 of them, so 10 hit per round for 1d4+2, or 3.5. That's another 35 hp.
I just don't see how he's going to survive, even if you spend the rest of your 25K. But go for it.
If he decides to stand back and shoot with his bow, he's going to kill a few, but the grunts can charge in and start slinging stones or charge him directly (enlarging while shooting the bow is useless, the arrows return to normal when they leave his body). Either way, if he's in range to use his +4 bow (which would also lower his AC by 3 or 4, depending on the size of shield, you didn't specify) then he's even easier to hit. So he'd have a 25 un-enlarged, or a 21 enlarged. If you have him use his reach weapon enlarged, he also has a 21 (again no shield). Once he's flanked, he's down to 19, and guys are hitting him on a 16 or better.
How do you charge someone who uses a Bow to stay at distance?
And the only reason why you can even touch him at all (even if he is not ranged) is because you give every mook ranged weapons and spam them and hope for 20s...
Give them melee weapons and it looks worse for them. What is funny because a archer vs a heavily armoured target stands no chance at all... if he has a chance to break through the armour at a distance of 2m he is really happy :D
Ashiel?
What magic items did I give the army? Slings? They're little pieces of leather. Less than a couple of gold. Bullets for the slings? No, also cheap.
Flasks of acid? Not magic. 20gp.
Flasks of alchemists fire? Not magic. 30gp.
So, as you, I assumed mundane equipment for them, less than 250gp.
So where is this accusation of me outfiting the army with tons of magic coming from? Please point it out. Because frankly, I see me showing you that 1 level 10 fighter, built by the rules as written, and not your houserules uses up over half his wealth to be immune to alchemists fire and acid and have adamantine armor. And then he's got a low AC cause he can't afford much else, and get's taken out by mooks. Lowly level 1 mooks.
A level 10 fighter, built to rules as written, is going to get killed by 500 mooks, much less 10,000. And then they're going to sell his armor and go hire 300 more mooks for the price. Or the king will mount the adamantine armor in his trophy room, one or the other.
A level 10 fighter or melee can come in hot, with silence cast on him and around him, enchantments, start carving up, but if the foes have some alchemist fire, and they can see him (and greater invis wears off pretty quick) he is going to get attacked back, held up, roasted, the alarm will spread (because people can see more than 15 foot and pass the news along) and against an army of soldiers in medium to light kit, with some touch attack alchemist fires (total under 100gp kit for each) that fighter will get cooked and cut up. Ten is good, but get injured too much, and even a normal captain will take the ten down.
Groups of players have problems with casualties. If the fighter is gone, the next player is next. The wizard can leave (if he can and is able) but the next battle, the good level fighter is gone.
On this subject discussing 10, 15 and level 20s is a different kettle of fish each time. The opponents are also important. A pirate-hobgoblin army of swashbucklers and rogues is not so vulnerable to carpet bombing for example.
If he's making ranged attacks, you just run straight at him and get into range yourself. If he's far enough away you can't get to him with a charge (x2 move) you run (x4 move). If he continues to fire, you continue to close (with your 200 friends). There's a limit to how far away he can be, and how far he can move and still fire. Eventually (within 5 or 6 rounds) they'll be close enough to attack, or they'll fire back themselves with massed fire.
And yes, the only reason I can touch him at all is because I gave every mook a ranged weapon and spammed. It's called 'massed fire'. It is a WONDERFULLY effective tactic, and it's been used throughout history. People started out doing it with, oddly enough, thrown rocks. Then slings. Then spears, bows, muskets, rifles, cannons, artillary, machine guns, bombs (carpet bombing).
There's a reason why people have been doing it for 10,000 years.
it works!
You say this as if it is somehow a cheat. It's not, it's what any intelligent army would do if faced with 'super soldiers'.
Actually, it's what people do nowdays with supersoldiers. If you've got someone in an APC, you fire a dozen RPGs at it, and knickle and dime it to death. Or, you fire 5000 rounds of APDS rounds at it from a vulcan chain gun (do note that machine guns are massed fire devices).
So,
The above guy, if we use him as he is now. Then if our troops all have either a flask of acid, or an alchemists fire (say half each), then as soon as he kills 2-3 of them and shrugs off some arrows, then 50 of each throw a flask at him (after someone signals a withdraw from him). Note that as soon as they do this, he's dead. Even if they miss him with the flask, he takes 1 pt of splash damage from each flask/fire. That's a minimum of 100 pts in one round.If he crushes a gem to get an elemental, the elemental draws all the archer attacks, and it dies in one round (100 archers). The elemental doesn't have a high AC.
The pike wielders can charge him, same reach, no AoO. Once flanked, his effective AC drops to 24. The pike men probably hit still on a 20, but it's important to note.
He has no defense against the archers, who all hit on a 20, which is about 5 a round. Average damage with shortbows, 3.5*5 = 17.5 or 17. Long bows would do 4.5*5 = 24.5 or 24.
The grunts who can't reach him would pull out their slings and throw stones at him, so say 200 of them, so 10 hit per round for 1d4+2, or 3.5. That's another 35 hp.
I just don't see how he's going to survive, even if you spend the rest of your 25K. But go for it.
If he decides to stand back and shoot with his bow, he's going to kill a few, but the grunts can charge in and start slinging stones or charge him directly (enlarging while shooting the bow is useless, the arrows return to normal when they leave his body). Either way, if he's in range to use his +4 bow (which would also lower his AC by 3 or 4, depending on the size of shield, you didn't specify) then he's even easier to hit. So he'd have a 25 un-enlarged, or a 21 enlarged. If you have him use his reach weapon enlarged, he also has a 21 (again no shield). Once he's flanked, he's down to 19, and guys are hitting him on a 16 or better.
How do you charge someone who uses a Bow to stay at distance?
And the only reason why you...
A bow monk is agile, but cav can be faster, keep them running into exhaustion. Mongol type raiders can catch monks.
Also if the monk runs too long from a small group, he can get fatigued, exhausted and slowed down. And then the rest can be brought up, a sad end. Damn I love bow cav. ;)
Ashiel?
What magic items did I give the army? Slings? They're little pieces of leather. Less than a couple of gold. Bullets for the slings? No, also cheap.
Flasks of acid? Not magic. 20gp.
Flasks of alchemists fire? Not magic. 30gp.
So, as you, I assumed mundane equipment for them, less than 250gp.
So where is this accusation of me outfiting the army with tons of magic coming from? Please point it out. Because frankly, I see me showing you that 1 level 10 fighter, built by the rules as written, and not your houserules uses up over half his wealth to be immune to alchemists fire and acid and have adamantine armor. And then he's got a low AC cause he can't afford much else, and get's taken out by mooks. Lowly level 1 mooks.
A level 10 fighter, built to rules as written, is going to get killed by 500 mooks, much less 10,000. And then they're going to sell his armor and go hire 300 more mooks for the price. Or the king will mount the adamantine armor in his trophy room, one or the other.
A level 10 fighter or melee can come in hot, with silence cast on him and around him, enchantments, start carving up, but if the foes have some alchemist fire, and they can see him (and greater invis wears off pretty quick) he is going to get attacked back, held up, roasted, the alarm will spread (because people can see more than 15 foot and pass the news along) and against an army of soldiers in medium to light kit, with some touch attack alchemist fires (total under 100gp kit for each) that fighter will get cooked and cut up. Ten is good, but get injured too much, and even a normal captain will take the ten down.
Groups of players have problems with casualties. If the fighter is gone, the next player is next. The wizard can leave (if he can and is able) but the next battle, the good level fighter is gone.
On this subject discussing 10, 15 and level 20s is a different kettle of fish each time. The opponents are also important. A pirate-hobgoblin army...
How many billion gold pieces do you equip your armies with? Every soldier with about 600gp?
Yeah, I didn't bring cavalry into it, but people on horses could chase down even a zen archer monk. Although, more likely, the zen archer monk would (if he were smart) run in, flurry two or three rounds at max range, take his licks from their archers, and then run at max speed away.
Then he'd do this over and over. Although they'd try to set up ambushes, so he couldn't do this.
The ZA Monk is the most likely to be able to do this multiple times before he messed up and got killed though.
AF? Try reading the posts. We're talking about mooks equipped with under 200 gp of equipment each. That's pretty bog standard. Actually, most of them would be under 100gp each. The archers and cavalry (if present) would be the 200gp guys, the grunts with flasks, slings and swords and light/med armor would be the guys who are under 100GP equipment.
Of course not, I mentioned a lightly armoured soldier, with two alchemists fire and you can keep it easy under 100gp for each. Each having the small amount of fire damage through touch could be deadly on tin cans of destruction.
Now energy resistance could sure work wonders against that, but it has to be there to save the attacker.
AF? Try reading the posts. We're talking about mooks equipped with under 200 gp of equipment each. That's pretty bog standard. Actually, most of them would be under 100gp each. The archers and cavalry (if present) would be the 200gp guys, the grunts with flasks, slings and swords and light/med armor would be the guys who are under 100GP equipment.
So your Archer Fighters are not mounted? Wow :(
Lol, go shortbow, arrows, dagger, no armour.
Advisor: Save more to buy more tailored mercenaries if required!
King: advisor, our armies will be the laughing stock of all the kingdoms. What of troublesome adventurers who believe they can take our army?
Advisor: well my liege, with this type of low expenditure, we can have giant armies if we have to. Why spend 600 florianucats on one man? Foes will die of tiredness before they defeat us all.
King: risky, well, we must at least have archery competitions then. And put the left-over funds to agriculture and expanding villages, we will need the population in a protracted contest. Keep some elite mercenary guilds on retainer.
Advisor: wise as ever my liege.
King: yes, what have I said? Tongue out of my ar**. That isn't your job. Honestly you can be a sycophant as a free action advisor.
Lol, go shortbow, arrows, dagger, no armour.
Advisor: Save more to buy more tailored mercenaries if required!
King: advisor, our armies will be the laughing stock of all the kingdoms. What of troublesome adventurers who believe they can take our army?
Advisor: well my liege, with this type of low expenditure, we can have giant armies if we have to. Why spend 600 florianucats on one man? Foes will die or tiredness before they defeat us all.
King: well, we must at least have archery competitions then. And put the left-over funds to agriculture and expanding villages, we will need the population in a protracted contest. Keep some elite mercenary guilds on retainer.
Advisor: wise as ever my liege.
King: yes, what have I said? Tongue out of my ar**. That isn't your job. Honestly you can be a sycophant as a free action advisor.
So your army loses each army vs army fight? Nice army
AF? Try reading the posts. We're talking about mooks equipped with under 200 gp of equipment each. That's pretty bog standard. Actually, most of them would be under 100gp each. The archers and cavalry (if present) would be the 200gp guys, the grunts with flasks, slings and swords and light/med armor would be the guys who are under 100GP equipment.So your Archer Fighters are not mounted? Wow :(
I was trying to keep things simple AF. That's why I didn't bring cavalry into it.
I was trying to keep things simple AF. That's why I didn't bring cavalry into it.AF? Try reading the posts. We're talking about mooks equipped with under 200 gp of equipment each. That's pretty bog standard. Actually, most of them would be under 100gp each. The archers and cavalry (if present) would be the 200gp guys, the grunts with flasks, slings and swords and light/med armor would be the guys who are under 100GP equipment.So your Archer Fighters are not mounted? Wow :(
I meant the hero. Why not take a flying thiny that moves 80ft per round and ride it? Instant invulnerability with far shot
So your army loses each army vs army fight? Nice armyLol, go shortbow, arrows, dagger, no armour.
Advisor: Save more to buy more tailored mercenaries if required!
King: advisor, our armies will be the laughing stock of all the kingdoms. What of troublesome adventurers who believe they can take our army?
Advisor: well my liege, with this type of low expenditure, we can have giant armies if we have to. Why spend 600 florianucats on one man? Foes will die or tiredness before they defeat us all.
King: well, we must at least have archery competitions then. And put the left-over funds to agriculture and expanding villages, we will need the population in a protracted contest. Keep some elite mercenary guilds on retainer.
Advisor: wise as ever my liege.
King: yes, what have I said? Tongue out of my ar**. That isn't your job. Honestly you can be a sycophant as a free action advisor.
Numbers and a lot of ranged doesn't mean you always lose. For defence it is quite good. Please read, the advisor has mercs on retainer and a lot of cash left over. Jeez man, one example of a frustrating army for high levels to face and you didn't even read it properly. Urgh.
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I meant the hero. Why not take a flying thiny that moves 80ft per round and ride it? Instant invulnerability with far shot
What flying thingy? A little more detail would be helpful.
As to using far shot, and riding and flying, yeah, you could do something like that. But you're one guy, with a bow. And you're not invulnerable. The enemy archers can still shoot back. All you've done is reduce your odds from 1 vs 500 to 1 vs 100 (or 1 vs 10,000 to 1 vs 3,000).
The original claim was a single level 10 fighter could kill 10,000 level 1 mook army single handedly. I reduced it to 500 to make things saner. If you can figure out how to kill 500 level 1's without violating the RAW, then I'll up it to 1,000 and well go from there.
Got it. Use diplomacy.
Got it. Use diplomacy.
.
."Hero": Can you please let me butcher you all without making a fuzz?
Chief Mook: yeah sure, go ahead.
We will call all the fuzz, the warriors of the fuzz, our haircut has much fuzz and we will turn you into fuzz. Fuzz!
On diplomacy, I more meant winning without fighting. Not starting a terrible battle. The way of peace, but such is not the way of magic items and killing armies.
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We will call all the fuzz, the warriors of the fuzz, our haircut has much fuzz and we will turn you into fuzz. Fuzz!
On diplomacy, I more meant winning without fighting. Not starting a terrible battle. The way of peace, but such is not the way of magic items and killing armies.
I did this to my last DM. I was playing a warlock/rogue, and I spent more time convincing people to go into business with me than fighting them. We got a reputation for destroying unreasonable people, and making reasonable enemies business partners, then allies, then rich.
It got down to where we were mostly fighting non-sentient things. :) Because I couldn't schmooze them into coming to work for my growing empire. :)
I meant the hero. Why not take a flying thiny that moves 80ft per round and ride it? Instant invulnerability with far shotWhat flying thingy? A little more detail would be helpful.
As to using far shot, and riding and flying, yeah, you could do something like that. But you're one guy, with a bow. And you're not invulnerable. The enemy archers can still shoot back. All you've done is reduce your odds from 1 vs 500 to 1 vs 100 (or 1 vs 10,000 to 1 vs 3,000).
The original claim was a single level 10 fighter could kill 10,000 level 1 mook army single handedly. I reduced it to 500 to make things saner. If you can figure out how to kill 500 level 1's without violating the RAW, then I'll up it to 1,000 and well go from there.
Well then get creative... fly up and throw stones down on them ;). Get creative.
We will call all the fuzz, the warriors of the fuzz, our haircut has much fuzz and we will turn you into fuzz. Fuzz!
On diplomacy, I more meant winning without fighting. Not starting a terrible battle. The way of peace, but such is not the way of magic items and killing armies.
I did this to my last DM. I was playing a warlock/rogue, and I spent more time convincing people to go into business with me than fighting them. We got a reputation for destroying unreasonable people, and making reasonable enemies business partners, then allies, then rich.
It got down to where we were mostly fighting non-sentient things. :) Because I couldn't schmooze them into coming to work for my growing empire. :)
So a guy has several million gps ready to spend on mercenaries and their equipment (plus has a lot of money in his backhand) but can't afford to outbid a group of adventurers? jeeeeez
We will call all the fuzz, the warriors of the fuzz, our haircut has much fuzz and we will turn you into fuzz. Fuzz!
On diplomacy, I more meant winning without fighting. Not starting a terrible battle. The way of peace, but such is not the way of magic items and killing armies.
I did this to my last DM. I was playing a warlock/rogue, and I spent more time convincing people to go into business with me than fighting them. We got a reputation for destroying unreasonable people, and making reasonable enemies business partners, then allies, then rich.
It got down to where we were mostly fighting non-sentient things. :) Because I couldn't schmooze them into coming to work for my growing empire. :)
Yeah, had a warmage. Feats and ranks into diplomacy. Did more persuasion than killing. Was a good game. Similar approach to you.
Jokes about brain tentacles and mind control were made. She had two settings, diplomatic or massive amounts of damage. She also liked high culture dancing.
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WANTED
The Murderous Hobos
for
Killing five guardsmen
Sinking of The Coral Star
Creating Undead
Sinking of The Maiden of Cheliax
Arson of The Nag's Head Bar
Escape from His Majesty's Prison
Slaying of six Royal Prison Guards
Murder of a Brave Citizen
Destruction of a Regiment
Destruction of Castle Superior
REWARD
15,000 gp
WANTED
The Murderous Hobos
for
Killing five guardsmen
Sinking of The Coral Star
Creating Undead
Sinking of The Maiden of Cheliax
Arson of The Nag's Head Bar
Escape from His Majesty's Prison
Slaying of six Royal Prison Guards
Murder of a Brave Citizen
Destruction of a Regiment
Destruction of Castle SuperiorREWARD
15,000 gp
.
.Add thieft of treasure and money to explain why the reward isn't higher?!.