Goblin Squad Member
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But you should be able to make up for it later. Either with a respec for a feat style system, or just train up the skills that you are missing in a skill system.......Assuming it's a class based system I'll actualy agree with Scott in that each class be roughly as viable as one another. When it comes to skill based or build your own style system.... or class based system where you are picking from a menu of customization options (such as feats in D&D) all bets are off though.
It should be entirely possible to pick feats that don't complement each other well or don't mesh with your class or play style well. For me that is part of the "game" portion of the game....where the player is making character build decisions...and those decisions could be either good or bad...just like any other decision that involves strategy in game play.
The ability to respec is pretty critical, in my view.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But you should be able to make up for it later. Either with a respec for a feat style system, or just train up the skills that you are missing in a skill system.......Assuming it's a class based system I'll actualy agree with Scott in that each class be roughly as viable as one another. When it comes to skill based or build your own style system.... or class based system where you are picking from a menu of customization options (such as feats in D&D) all bets are off though.
It should be entirely possible to pick feats that don't complement each other well or don't mesh with your class or play style well. For me that is part of the "game" portion of the game....where the player is making character build decisions...and those decisions could be either good or bad...just like any other decision that involves strategy in game play.
I hope for the later, the ability to respec is anti-consequences. If there are no caps you want to learn something different, go do so. Being able to respec at whim is equal to...and I suggest if they go that route just skip the middle and give everyone access to every skill they have the time in game to be able to know.
No respec, just everyone knows everything it is possible for their character to know.
(but...I hope this is a game with consequences)
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Goblin Squad Member
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But you should be able to make up for it later. Either with a respec for a feat style system, or just train up the skills that you are missing in a skill system.I hope for the later, the ability to respec is anti-consequences. If there are no caps you want to learn something different, go do so. Being able to respec at whim is equal to...and I suggest if they go that route just skip the middle and give everyone access to every skill they have the time in game to be able to know.
No respec, just everyone knows everything it is possible for their character to know.
(but...I hope this is a game with consequences)
respec doesn't have to be anti-consequence. make it once per month, or longer. time ticks equally for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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respec doesn't have to be anti-consequence. make it once per month, or longer. time ticks equally for everyone.
It can be controlled a bit, though I do have to admit I have seen games that were better without a respec. Ragnarok online had a ton of choices of builds, in which some were really powerful at low levels, but then when you reach high levels become very ineffective... After they drastically changed half of the skills in the game, they opted to implement a respec system, after which everyone who took the easy path to the top, now all of a sudden was at the top with nearly Un-levelable but extremely powerful builds. In some ways even allowing it once in a characters life, can completely negate certain consequences. Of course that was part of a design flaw in the game, the absolute best PVP builds were by definition extremely difficult to level by design.
Of course that all depends on how PF does things, if there aren't certain builds that are godly for leveling and certain builds that are godly for PVP etc... then I would be against a respec system, however if skills are comparably easy to level regardless of build, then I could see it as reasonable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will admit that the ability to respecc does take a bit of the heart-racing that can come with deciding on a major shift in character abilities/build direction, but at the same point, being able to go "Oh Crap this is just not working anymore!" should be available, but at the same point should be difficult, expensive and time-consuming enough that it's a final option, not the first one.
That said, assuming the Skill System doesn't 'level' you but rather makes you 'better' at said skills, it's not too difficult to imagine your characters can be good at, well, anything.
Of course, being able to do everything at once might be just a touch too much power. I don't know, maybe adventuring, you need to select 10 'skills' or more and you can't use the other skills until you 'rest' and re-select new skills to be available.
Maybe a bit like the Final Fantasy Online? And I do mean 'a bit'. You could be a Fighter/Rogue or a Black Mage/White Mage, even though you might have maximum levels in all the 'classes'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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respec doesn't have to be anti-consequence. make it once per month, or longer. time ticks equally for everyone....
But you should be able to make up for it later. Either with a respec for a feat style system, or just train up the skills that you are missing in a skill system.I hope for the later, the ability to respec is anti-consequences. If there are no caps you want to learn something different, go do so. Being able to respec at whim is equal to...and I suggest if they go that route just skip the middle and give everyone access to every skill they have the time in game to be able to know.
No respec, just everyone knows everything it is possible for their character to know.
(but...I hope this is a game with consequences)
Or just do like most major MMOs do, and have a cost associated with respecing that increases with each subsequent respec (and slowly resets over a long span of time).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or you could just not do what everyone else does to make an extra buck. I can give up PF mechanics as long as the spirit is left intact. No where in PF can you take back and redistribute your attribute points, or skill points, or even class selections. Because your character is suppose to be an amalgamation of all its previous experiences and choices. It will be a huge disappointment to me if PFO intends to give up this RP spirit in the name of convenience.
It is a skill based system, you can eventually learn everything. Why would you ever need to respec? If you are unhappy with your current skill set, get new ones.
I know EVE allows attribute respecs (in a universe of reengineered clones, it does not seem impossible to design yourself a new body with enhanced muscle tone lets say), but I am not sure if they allow skill respecs...I am not even sure how you would do that in a skill based system. I would be very disappointed if they did. I know Ryzom, another skill based system does not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or you could just not do what everyone else does to make an extra buck.
I'm not advocating it for the sake of making an extra buck. I'm advocating it because it works, and produces a better game experience.
I can give up PF mechanics as long as the spirit is left intact. No where in PF can you take back and redistribute your attribute points, or skill points, or even class selections.
D&D allows you to retrain a skill, power, or feat at each level. It works very well.
Because your character is suppose to be an amalgamation of all its previous experiences and choices. It will be a huge disappointment to me if PFO intends to give up this RP spirit in the name of convenience.
Imagine that you play PFO. You spend months advancing your character, only to discover at a late point in the game that the choices you made have produced a character who will struggle to compete with other characters focused on the same goals. You are stuck with a sub-par character, and without respecing the only way to fix the problem is to start over from scratch.
It is a skill based system, you can eventually learn everything.
Many skill-based systems have a secondary advancement track - talents, feats, whatever you want to call them. Skyrim has a talent tree for each skill, for instance.
If skills can be raised without limit, then that's great. But if the game presents a system of either-or choices, you should include a way for players to revisit those choices later in case they end up dissatisfied with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know EVE allows attribute respecs (in a universe of reengineered clones, it does not seem impossible to design yourself a new body with enhanced muscle tone lets say), but I am not sure if they allow skill respecs...I am not even sure how you would do that in a skill based system. I would be very disappointed if they did. I know Ryzom, another skill based system does not.
EVE allows attribute remap once per year (remapping attributes triggers 1 year cooldown; no stacking; bonus remaps are given to new characters and sometimes as gift). attributes exclusively affect learning speed only (no other effect). skill redistribution is not available publicly (however, several skill were removed from game and any skill points invested in those skills were refunded and could be applied to other skills; there is mechanic, it just isn't available to public).
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Goblin Squad Member
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When I played City of Heroes they gave out a free respec when a major patch came through. It only seems fair when the "consequence" of your build changes because of forces outside of your control. If a specific combo you built your character around no longer works, you shouldn't be stuck with a crappy build.
Of course, the mechanics of Pathfinder will be different. It may be that the occasional feat or power may need to be respec'd, but not the skills. Hard to say what makes sense until we know more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because your character is suppose to be an amalgamation of all its previous experiences and choices. It will be a huge disappointment to me if PFO intends to give up this RP spirit in the name of convenience.Imagine that you play PFO. You spend months advancing your character, only to discover at a late point in the game that the choices you made have produced a character who will struggle to compete with other characters focused on the same goals. You are stuck with a sub-par character, and without respecing the only way to fix the problem is to start over from scratch.
I suppose this is where I disagree. In my previous pathfinder campaign I played a fighter/bard who was from an arabian nomad type background. Due to his upbringing he did not wear armor (because it would not work in the desert). Even though the campaign we were playing did not take place in the desert, he did not change who he was...nor his preferences, likes, dislikes. I RPed being this character even if it made him "subpar" or less than maximum efficiency.
Roleplay seems to have become equivalent to Munchkinism. I realize I am not only a minority in preferring the prior, but I am part of a shrinking minority.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose this is where I disagree. In my previous pathfinder campaign I played a fighter/bard who was from an arabian nomad type background. Due to his upbringing he did not wear armor (because it would not work in the desert). Even though the campaign we were playing did not take place in the desert, he did not change who he was...nor his preferences, likes, dislikes. I RPed being this character even if it made him "subpar" or less than maximum efficiency.
As you note, you're definitely in the minority on this in terms of the overall MMORPG playerbase, and probably still in the minority in terms of PFO's eventual playerbase. You also have to acknowledge that your ability to enjoy the game probably won't be adversely affected by having the ability to respec (since it's optional), whereas others would enjoy the game less if the ability to respec were not included.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose this is where I disagree. In my previous pathfinder campaign I played a fighter/bard who was from an arabian nomad type background. Due to his upbringing he did not wear armor (because it would not work in the desert). Even though the campaign we were playing did not take place in the desert, he did not change who he was...nor his preferences, likes, dislikes. I RPed being this character even if it made him "subpar" or less than maximum efficiency.As you note, you're definitely in the minority on this in terms of the overall MMORPG playerbase, and probably still in the minority in terms of PFO's eventual playerbase. You also have to acknowledge that your ability to enjoy the game probably won't be adversely affected by having the ability to respec (since it's optional), whereas others would enjoy the game less if the ability to respec were not included.
That is a slippery slope...by that argument, anything can be added as long as it does not take away from others. This, by the way, requires you to define "adversely effects"...and good luck finding consensus in this.
I acknowledge that if the game goes that direction, the devs and I obviously do not have anything close to the same priorities in mind. Meaning we do not share the same ideas of what something means to be a "good" game. Whether this leads to me (and the minority like me who are actually looking for the RP in MMORPG) loosing interest or not, we shall see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is a slippery slope...by that argument, anything can be added as long as it does not take away from others.
Slippery slopes are part of design. You have to manage them. Design is hard.
This, by the way, requires you to define "adversely effects"...and good luck finding consensus in this.
Unless someone tells you that they respec'd, you could simply ignore that the ability exists and play on blissfully ignorant of how powerful your character could be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Respec strikes me as reasonable...although I do want a hard timer on it to prevent it from being done on a frequent basis... say 1 respec per month sounds reasonable.
I think it's fine to put in some mechansim for people to correct mistakes they've made in thier character builds if they want to do so.
What I don't want to see happening is "Today we are running Dungeon Y so I'm going to respec into build #27. Tomorrow we are running Dungeon X so I'll respec into build #12. Thursday it'll be build #5." which is pretty much what I've seen happen in every game that has allowed respec's without a hard timer on them...regardless of what costs were put on the respecs.
IMO infrequent respecs are as good as no respecs. Say you just respecced and don't like it. If it takes a month (for the sake of argument) to skill up a new tree, what's the difference between waiting to respec and just skilling up?
Although I agree that unlimited respecs are kind of silly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO infrequent respecs are as good as no respecs. Say you just respecced and don't like it. If it takes a month (for the sake of argument) to skill up a new tree, what's the difference between waiting to respec and just skilling up?
Although I agree that unlimited respecs are kind of silly.
but couldn't that be applied to any consequence? why does my gear get damaged when i die? or why does my gear drop as loot when i die? why do i have to corpsewalk or suffer death penalty? why do i have to keep my clone updated?
there are no right answers. there are just preferences.
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I just wanted to share an amusing story that illustrates how different people enjoy different things. My wife finally got to sit down today to start her Skyrim game. She is...umm...catching fireflies. She is loving the game and only wants to collect bugs. I...well...was not sure how to advise her on progression, but if it is entertaining her...
I suppose allowing progression of an alchemical reagent harvesting skill would have made this the perfect game for her (she is not such a fan of fighting stuff...but she would love to tag along with someone who would want to fight stuff and not harvest). Either way, she is happy catching her bugs and searching the caves for glowing mushrooms.
Good for her. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
but couldn't that be applied to any consequence? why does my gear get damaged when i die? or why does my gear drop as loot when i die? why do i have to corpsewalk or suffer death penalty? why do i have to keep my clone updated?
there are no right answers. there are just preferences.
True. But there is a difference between preferring one mechanic over another, and having a mechanic that just isn't useful.
But I think this is all academic. There probably won't be respeccing. The method of "respeccing" will probably be to start skilling up the new thing you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, okay, first let's clarify what is meant by skill-based, and why that's important to a discussion of respecing.
In most MMORPGs, respecing is an option because the game has a cap. You reach max level, and you can no longer advance your character. Your feats/talents/specializations are locked in. If you later decide you want a different talent, you can't pick it up no matter how hard you try. You can't level, so you can't earn a talent point. That's all.
Respecing solves this by letting you reassign those limited talent points.
On the other hand, most skill-based systems don't have a cap. You level skills as they are used, and as long as you keep using those skills, you can keep leveling those skills up. The need for a respec system is not there. If you missed a skill that it turns out you later want to pick up, all you have to do is start training in it.
That said, I think the richest skill-based systems also incorporate a feat-like or talent-like system (see: Skyrim). If such a system does end up in PFO, I think it would be wise to allow those talents to be respec'd, though not necessarily the underlying skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree to a point, but I just hate the "full respec". Whatever mechanic you want to make, just make it gradual. One "feat" per week, or per level, a B.o.P. consumable that you get for completing some crazy dungeon or achieving something in the game that lets you swap out a feat or two, something along those lines.
While I see the appeal, this would be equally problematic.
Imagine someone has a "build" in mind, but it's wildly different from the one they have. Perhaps they are currently the Ranger you described, but they want to be the Necromancer. Under your proposed gradual system, there will be a point at which they are half-Ranger, half-Necromancer. And, chances are, they won't be adequate at either of those jobs because they're suffering from a lack of focus. You'll have stretches of weeks at a time where players are frustrated with how impractical their character is mid-way through its transition, but which they're forced to put up with if they want to try out something different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree to a point, but I just hate the "full respec". Whatever mechanic you want to make, just make it gradual. One "feat" per week, or per level, a B.o.P. consumable that you get for completing some crazy dungeon or achieving something in the game that lets you swap out a feat or two, something along those lines.While I see the appeal, this would be equally problematic.
Imagine someone has a "build" in mind, but it's wildly different from the one they have. Perhaps they are currently the Ranger you described, but they want to be the Necromancer. Under your proposed gradual system, there will be a point at which they are half-Ranger, half-Necromancer. And, chances are, they won't be adequate at either of those jobs because they're suffering from a lack of focus. You'll have stretches of weeks at a time where players are frustrated with how impractical their character is mid-way through its transition, but which they're forced to put up with if they want to try out something different.
it does depend on associated costs and power balance. if costs are linear, then your case applies. half-ranger, half-necromancer is probably less effective than full type. if costs are exponential, then there might be 80%-ranger, 80% necromancer, which could not even be bad.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it does depend on associated costs and power balance. if costs are linear, then your case applies. half-ranger, half-necromancer is probably less effective than full type. if costs are exponential, then there might be 80%-ranger, 80% necromancer, which could not even be bad.I agree to a point, but I just hate the "full respec". Whatever mechanic you want to make, just make it gradual. One "feat" per week, or per level, a B.o.P. consumable that you get for completing some crazy dungeon or achieving something in the game that lets you swap out a feat or two, something along those lines.While I see the appeal, this would be equally problematic.
Imagine someone has a "build" in mind, but it's wildly different from the one they have. Perhaps they are currently the Ranger you described, but they want to be the Necromancer. Under your proposed gradual system, there will be a point at which they are half-Ranger, half-Necromancer. And, chances are, they won't be adequate at either of those jobs because they're suffering from a lack of focus. You'll have stretches of weeks at a time where players are frustrated with how impractical their character is mid-way through its transition, but which they're forced to put up with if they want to try out something different.
Not that anyone needs my agreement for anything...but I would have no qualms with this version of respeccing. If you really want to change your "class" this allows you to, with short-term consequences.
Goblinworks Founder
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I haven't posted in a few weeks but I figure I'd just pop in and say that I agree with you KitNyx. It's nice to see something on the horizon that has the hope of an interesting player driven world.
@Ryan, Nice description of your experience in Skyrim. I must say I too was a little disappointed that after my take over of the thieves guild that there was little else I could do with it. The illusion wore off quite quickly after I had experienced similar outcomes.
I would argue....
Please don't Scott.
I'm going to crawl back into my hole for a while. I'm too scared to post here anymore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it does depend on associated costs and power balance. if costs are linear, then your case applies. half-ranger, half-necromancer is probably less effective than full type. if costs are exponential, then there might be 80%-ranger, 80% necromancer, which could not even be bad.I agree to a point, but I just hate the "full respec". Whatever mechanic you want to make, just make it gradual. One "feat" per week, or per level, a B.o.P. consumable that you get for completing some crazy dungeon or achieving something in the game that lets you swap out a feat or two, something along those lines.While I see the appeal, this would be equally problematic.
Imagine someone has a "build" in mind, but it's wildly different from the one they have. Perhaps they are currently the Ranger you described, but they want to be the Necromancer. Under your proposed gradual system, there will be a point at which they are half-Ranger, half-Necromancer. And, chances are, they won't be adequate at either of those jobs because they're suffering from a lack of focus. You'll have stretches of weeks at a time where players are frustrated with how impractical their character is mid-way through its transition, but which they're forced to put up with if they want to try out something different.
That's true (though I can't think of many games that are skill-based and also having growing talent point costs as you level a tree, but that doesn't mean PFO can't do it), but you still need to keep in mind that most talent tree-like systems feature capstone abilities that are much stronger than anything else in the tree and help define a character at that level. You'd have to figure out how to build this out of your system, or else someone respecing would spend the entire respec process without any capstone abilities (since it would be the first to go and the last to be purchased).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just have a real fundamental problem with the instant relearning of an entirely new skill set,
Keep in mind that they really wouldn't be learning an entirely new skill set. In the hypothetical Ranger/Necromancer example, in order to be able to move all his points over to the Necromancy tree he would have already had to level his Necromancy skill up quite a lot. So, actually, he was already a pretty accomplished Necromancer even before the respec. The respec just allows him to drop whatever tricks the ranger talents let him do and pick up whatever tricks the Necromancy talents let him do.
The possibility of that will depend on how "leveling up" works. If there's no "level cap", then there can't be a true capstone ability, rather several capstone abilities one can work toward simultaneously. I can't imagine how that system would work, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.
Skyrim is an example of this. There are a great many different skills (one-handed weapons, two-handed weapons, shields, one for each school of magic, crafting skills, etc.) and each has its own associated talent tree. Each tree has its own capstone ability. There is no hard level cap (there is an eventual practical cap to your level because at a certain point you will just run out of skills to raise). You level by increasing your skills, and once enough skills have been raised you gain a level and receive a talent point that can be spent on one of the trees.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's true (though I can't think of many games that are skill-based and also having growing talent point costs as you level a tree, but that doesn't mean PFO can't do it), but you still need to keep in mind that most talent tree-like systems feature capstone abilities that are much stronger than anything else in the tree and help define a character at that level. You'd have to figure out how to build this out of your system, or else someone respecing would spend the entire respec process without any capstone abilities (since it would be the first to go and the last to be purchased)....
it does depend on associated costs and power balance. if costs are linear, then your case applies. half-ranger, half-necromancer is probably less effective than full type. if costs are exponential, then there might be 80%-ranger, 80% necromancer, which could not even be bad.
cap-stone abilities work in (single) class-based game, because there isn't anywhere else to go but up, so you can be generous without gimping anyone. but, wouldn't it be better to spread the love? if devs go with skill-based system, there will have to be system to balance jack-of-all-trades and masters-of-few. even if there are cap-stone abilties, they shouldn't be defining or exclusive. otherwise, it's just class system with different progression.
also, what if they let advancement be open-ended? how many cap-stones can one get? and it's one thing to balance actions by ship type. it's quite different to not be able to drop bow and take out a wand.
honestly, if strict adherence to roles is holy cow, it would make more sense to simply keep class system.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this system we'd wind up with a great many fighter/rogue/wizard/clerics after the first group has been playing for a few months, and that just seems like a different kind of homogeneous class system.
Could be. But I think enough people suffer from "special snowflake syndrome" to prevent that from happening--myself included.
honestly, if strict adherence to roles is holy cow, it would make more sense to simply keep class system.
We're having a barbeque with that cow over in the trinity thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds awesome but it seems dangerous in an mmo. It does sound like the optimal solution, assuming it can be balanced.
Edit: One problem I can see with this system, though, is that at some point all characters will be forced to start choosing abilities outside of their character design for lack of anything else to do with those "feats". In a single player hack and slasher like skyrim that might be fine, but in this world that seems problematic. I guess if there were a) something else to spend feats on that buffed your character or b) so many available feats that no one could ever perfect multiple trees(doesn't really seem possible), that might be a solution.
What's wrong with encouraging players to diversify their character (or forcing them to, once they've utterly mastered a particular skill)?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this system we'd wind up with a great many fighter/rogue/wizard/clerics after the first group has been playing for a few months, and that just seems like a different kind of homogeneous class system.
Wouldn't we see this in a skill-based system anyway? Given enough time, people will become masters at multiple skill categories.
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Goblin Squad Member
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cap-stone abilities work in (single) class-based game, because there isn't anywhere else to go but up, so you can be generous without gimping anyone.
Most MMORPGs have some kind of talent point system, and nearly all such talent point systems include capstone talents. It's been done in MMORPGs, and works fine.
It hasn't necessarily been done well in a skill-based MMORPG, but you'd have to break it down in order to figure out whether or not it would be feasible.
but, wouldn't it be better to spread the love? if devs go with skill-based system, there will have to be system to balance jack-of-all-trades and masters-of-few.
Balance how?
Shouldn't a master of a particular skill be able to best a character using that skill, while a jack-of-all-trades would best an amateur in any skill and be bested by a master in any skill?
even if there are cap-stone abilties, they shouldn't be defining or exclusive. otherwise, it's just class system with different progression.
Not quite. A skill-based system focuses on mixing-and-matching character styles. No matter how you play, chances are you will pick a handful of skills to focus on, and those skills will comprise a sort of custom, ad-hoc "class" for your character. It's not a bad thing to allow characters to have defining abilities based on their mastery of a particular skill. In fact, I think it would be a shame not to.
also, what if they let advancement be open-ended? how many cap-stones can one get?
Depends how they handle it. There's no hard rule on how it needs to be done, here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or you could have some feats/skills that you can just continue to increase. Say every time you take the feat it adds 2% to your damage with a bow (for example with the ranger). You could diversify, or you could continue perfecting your art.
Likewise, would be kinda cool to end up in a mage fight and someone silences you (or otherwise nullifies you magic)...only to have the mage wipe out a bow because they were previously a "capstoned" ranger...oops.
Makes me think of Princess Bride..."Then why are you smiling?"..."Because I am not left handed either..."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or you could have some feats/skills that you can just continue to increase. Say every time you take the feat it adds 2% to your damage with a bow (for example with the ranger). You could diversify, or you could continue perfecting your art.
Likewise, would be kinda cool to end up in a mage fight and someone silences you (or otherwise nullifies you magic)...only to have the mage wipe out a bow because they were previously a "capstoned" ranger...oops.
Makes me think of Princess Bride..."Then why are you smiling?"..."Because I am not left handed either..."
Yep, all of these things are design options that ought to be looked at.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see a huge problem with a roleplaying game that *forces* you to change your character. If I plan to make the bast 2h fighter of all time, and 6 months later I have all those feats and am effectively "max" level, I'd think it silly that I randomly decided it was time to lean how to heal. It's one thing if a character makes the *choice*. It's something else when they *have* to do this for lack of anything else to do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this system we'd wind up with a great many fighter/rogue/wizard/clerics after the first group has been playing for a few months, and that just seems like a different kind of homogeneous class system.Wouldn't we see this in a skill-based system anyway? Given enough time, people will become masters at multiple skill categories.I guess, to some degree. But unless measures as stated before(make it so feats incrementally increase your skills each time you put spend a point on a feat) then *every* character will be this 4 class wonder. I find that to be extremely tired. Seems like that's going a long way in the other direction from encouraging people to socialize.
"Why bother finding a healer, we can both heal a little. No real reason to find a tank, we can both wear beefy armor. CC? Nah, we've both got that too. I can pick locks and disarm traps, can you? Yeah, but whatever."
I also agree that to some extent, the trees should go out and specialization should still have advantages over non-specialization. I think it should take a long time to eventually reach the top of one category, and I still would like it if the diminishing returns were on a universal instead of skill specific level (diminishing returns being why it takes longer to go from 99-100 then it does to go from 1-10). IE them being universal so that the choice is not between 75 skill X, or 45 of skill A, B C D E F G H I J K L M N and O, with the diverse one being essentially 10x stronger then the specialized one, Basically I do hope they have a way to balance so that both the jack of all trades and the specialized are comparably powered.
That being said also, there isn't necessarily a need to cap (it could just double in length of time between each point and slow drastically), nor is it necessarily required that if your skill does cap you have to look into a different role, instead of putting your future points into say having to be a healer when you enjoy your 2hander, you could say put it into crafting your own 2 handers, and focus your character on defending your lands gathering a nice stockpile of 2handed weapons and armor, and fighting to expand your empire to the strongest it can be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This could be solved the same way it is in Oblivion.
At creation, pick x number of skills to make your focus that fit your character concept and that raise quicker and have bonuses. Then, pick x number of secondary skills, ones that make sense based on your previous choices, that you can level up with a small bonus. Then any other skill you pick up raises at twice the normal rate or some other appropriate speed.
Maybe as a twist for being an MMO, when all of your primary skill choices reach cap, then you can choose x number of secondaries to be made primaries, and add 1 or 2 new skills to your secondaries, and so on.
If there are a large number of skills and skill tress, then you can do the same as above but in categories ie. Combat Skills, Trade Skills etc.
There doesn't need to be an unlimited cap to all skills for all folks.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Stealing shamelessly from a skills-based MMO, Star Wars Galaxies featured branched professions; each branch required XP in the associated skill to advance (making weapons grants weaponsmithing XP, other people using weapons you made also grants you weaponsmithing XP; making healing kits boosts healing XP, which is used exclusively to gain healer/medic/doctor abilitites) Each level in each branch granted specific abilities, bonuses, proficiencies, and all the mechanical benefits.
Hit points might be granted by progressing along the combat trees, or along the survival tree, or by equipment. Spells are unlocked by the spell trees (perhaps a tree for each school of arcane magic, plus one for each divine power source) while the ability to cast more spells more often, or with less preparation, would come from its the casting trees.
There is a cap to the total number of profession levels that a character can have at any time: They can be given up at any time, but experience spent on them is lost. It is never required to acquire any given ability.
Respeccing a character, then, is exactly the same process as leveling one up to begin with, except that you have your existing skills until you choose to lose them to acquire the new skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see a huge problem with a roleplaying game that *forces* you to change your character.
Your character isn't changing from one thing to another. Your character is learning new things. That's how people work in real life, by the way.
If I plan to make the bast 2h fighter of all time, and 6 months later I have all those feats and am effectively "max" level, I'd think it silly that I randomly decided it was time to lean how to heal.
Why is that silly? You set out to make the best two-handed fighter of all time, and you did it. Congratulations. You've learned all there is to learn. Now go do something else.
It's one thing if a character makes the *choice*. It's something else when they *have* to do this for lack of anything else to do.
You are making the choice. You are choosing where to put those talent points.
I guess, to some degree. But unless measures as stated before(make it so feats incrementally increase your skills each time you put spend a point on a feat) then *every* character will be this 4 class wonder. I find that to be extremely tired. Seems like that's going a long way in the other direction from encouraging people to socialize.
I thought a lot of people wanted to remove the traditional tank/dps/heal/control rolesets from the game. Isn't that one of the points of a skill-based system? That you can actually branch out to whatever role(s) you want?