Dragons mating with different colours?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


Greetings

As it is well known dragons can mate with almost anything so I would think that them mating with a different coloured mate wouldn't be a truely uncommon occurance. Now what I'm curious about is the genetics involved with this. For example if say a F Bronze was to mate with a M Brass and the Bronze fell pregnant would the wyrmlings always be bronzes or could they have an equal chance of being brasses?

Also regardless of what species they become would they inherit traits from both parents regardless of type? I.e A Bronze dragon inherits some of his fathers light-heartedness and more chaotic nature?


I've seen various suggestions. For instance, in an old Dragon magazine there was the "color wheel" theory of dragons (e.g. a blue dragon and a yellow dragon mating produces a green dragon). The other suggestion I've seen is the "half-dragon" theory (e.g. a bronze dragon mating with a brass dragon produces a brass dragon with the bronze half-dragon template).

Frog God Games

The various Draconomicons have gone in-depth on the subject. I'd say to go with what you want and make each "hybrid" unique.

I did find this page from Purple Duck Games in a quick internet search, if you're looking for some available rules on the subject.

Hybrid Dragon Template

Also, I can't remember where, but I swear that one of the editions basically said hybrid dragons don't happen. If two breeds DO mate the offspring are one breed or the other, but not a mixture.

I personally don't care for that, myself. <grin>

Dark Archive

Pharier wrote:

Greetings

As it is well known dragons can mate with almost anything so I would think that them mating with a different coloured mate wouldn't be a truely uncommon occurance. Now what I'm curious about is the genetics involved with this. For example if say a F Bronze was to mate with a M Brass and the Bronze fell pregnant would the wyrmlings always be bronzes or could they have an equal chance of being brasses?

Also regardless of what species they become would they inherit traits from both parents regardless of type? I.e A Bronze dragon inherits some of his fathers light-heartedness and more chaotic nature?

Ah dragon mating questions, my specialty.

It would depend on if the dragon color allele has complete dominance, incomplete dominance, or co-dominance.

Generally D&D has gone with complete dominance since incomplete dominance is rather silly. Red + White = Pink. Nobody sees pink dragons unless they've been drinking heavily.

In your example I believe they'd all be Bronze.

The second question is a bit more complex. You're going into trait linkage there. As usually written dragon genes tend to be strongly linked. I.e. If a Red dragon and White dragon have offspring, I'm pretty sure they'd be red and aggressive. But this is entirely up to you based on the character idea and role in the story. I've played a black/succubus cross to amusing results. }; )

So yes, you could theoretically have a good Red if a Red got with a gold, but it's not likely.

Yes yes usual disclaimer of combining fiction with genetics, blah blah. Some authors do whatever they want logic be damned.

Frog God Games

I always thought that markings of one of the parents wouldn't be inappropriate.

A White with red mottling near the feet wouldn't look silly at all. Then there's the question of body type and characteristics. A Gold/Red hybrid with the wing structure of a gold, a red's head, a red's coloring except towards the edge of his wings where it's fades into a burnished gold would be awesome, majestic and impossible with complete dominance.

If you're going to hybridize, I say to go crazy and use incomplete dominance! <grin>

The other reason I came back was to share that there are two other templates that may be of some assistance to you.

1) The Amalgam Template from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary is fantastic if you have the book available to you.

2) The Tome of Horrors Complete has the "Abomination" template. The drawback here is that it's tuned for use with animal, vermin and humanoid creatures.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I created a Pink Dragon somewhere on here which was a white dragon with the half red dragon template.

Dark Archive

Chuck Wright wrote:
If you're going to hybridize, I say to go crazy and use incomplete dominance! <grin>

Sure, I mean that is of course an option. I was just referring to generally as written lately. In 1st and 2nd edition anything went, gygaxian naturalism and all. I would think that most dragons would cull such abberrations though, or natural selection would. Still that doesn't make them any less probable I suppose.

Though don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I have also played a Green/ooze cross after all. }; )

Frog God Games

Oh! Just checked my personal library and found that specific rules for hybridizing dragons in was fully covered in the 2E Forgotten Realms Draconomicon.

Liberty's Edge

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My extensive experience with Crayola says you'd mostly get Brown Dragons.

It really depends on ow much time and effort you want to put into the question. If it's something that will have a significant impact on your story, consider Alex's dominance theory. If not, the "It's Magic" defense says go with Mom's color, as they're her eggs. As highly magical creatures, dragons need not be subjected to Gregor Mendel's petty gene rules.


My biggest barrier to role playing is that things have to make sense, so I'm interested in this topic from a purely theoretical view. So for me this is a lore question, not a question about role play options or possibilities.

The following is conjecture. But I really want to know what's the 'official view' in Golarion.

As magical creatures, I thought dragons were simply physical projections of some abstract principle. So genetics be damned, their powers and personality are defined by magic. I think of the magic as flowing water, and dragons (or other magical beings) as soil or sand that can be shaped by water. So the more magic or divine power you call upon, the less freedom the creature has to carve its own unique path (as it's carved for them). So dragons, strongly magical beings that they are, are magically compelled to be what they are. Their hybrid offspring are not born from genetics, but from the fact that draconic power now flows through the offspring, similarly limiting that offspring's ability to be its own creature.

In the case of dragons mating, the result could conceivably some union of the parental power sources, or be another power source entirely. If my theory is correct (or applicable to Golarion), then dragons are excellent conduits of magical power, but who's to say what power flows through them? It would be possible for two red dragons to, very very very rarely, give birth to a blue dragon. Now that would be interesting, wouldn't it? Though one might argue that if an egg is incubating in a red dragon, that dragon egg would be bathed in red dragon energy and would thus likely come out a red dragon. But what about an egg surrounded by mixed dragon energies? (A quick aside: Could drakes have come from chicken eggs hatched near dragon lairs? I really have no idea how drakes could've evolved from dragons)

There are two other factors to consider, though. (1) Dragon societies are often strongly structured, and there probably a lot of cultural taboos and prejudices concerning a dragon's color, just as some human cultures only trust their own. That might be the main reason different colored dragons don't mate. (2) This same prejudice might compel either the parents or the larger dragon society to destroy a mixed hatchling.

Most likely though, if magic is what we're talking about, opposing primal energies might cancel each other out, or warp each other. In that case the color wheel thing makes sense.


The other question would be why dragons would mate with other creatures? With birds, for example, small rituals and flourishes are what distinguish species, even though their genetics might be compatible. I thought the same would be true for dragons, but then why would they mate with non dragons?

The answer is that they wouldn't. Unless they did so out of some experiment to create stronger minions, or something.

Frog God Games

Sanjiv Jagtap wrote:

The other question would be why dragons would mate with other creatures? With birds, for example, small rituals and flourishes are what distinguish species, even though their genetics might be compatible. I thought the same would be true for dragons, but then why would they mate with non dragons?

The answer is that they wouldn't. Unless they did so out of some experiment to create stronger minions, or something.

But mating isn't the only way to introduce cross-species draconic hybridization. Wizards looking to improve their minions, for example. (Having just checked I can say that the half-dragon template essentially says the same thing.)

Also, I think that it would be within a dragon's power to do such things without the use of candles and the "Say Anything" soundtrack.

Dark Archive

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Sanjiv Jagtap wrote:
The answer is that they wouldn't. Unless they did so out of some experiment to create stronger minions, or something.

For every dragon that wouldn't, there's a dragon that would. Maybe for love. Maybe for fun. Maybe to breed an 'officer caste' of half-dragon minions to oversee his elite squad of fire giants or army of hobgoblins. Maybe as part of an experiment. Maybe because he lost a bet. Maybe because he drank the wrong philtre and totally had 'beer-goggles' on at the time...

Chuck Wright wrote:

But mating isn't the only way to introduce cross-species draconic hybridization. Wizards looking to improve their minions, for example. (Having just checked I can say that the half-dragon template essentially says the same thing.)

Also, I think that it would be within a dragon's power to do such things without the use of candles and the "Say Anything" soundtrack.

If there weren't always such techniques, you can bet some female dragon finished researching such a technique several days after realizing that all the boy dragons had flights of half-dragon manticores and whatever protecting their lairs, and that there wasn't enough ale in the world for her to make half-dragon manticores 'the old-fashioned way.'

Perhaps the ritual involves laying an unfertilized egg, and hollowing out a small cavity and dunking the creature to be 'half-dragonized' into it, while casting certain spells. Perhaps the dragon drains the blood of the creature, during a ritual procedure, and replaces it with her own blood, and the 'lucky' survivors get the half-dragon template (and become highly suggestible to the commands of their 'mother,' which she may have 'forgotten' to warn them about before they signed up for the procedure...). Maybe the ritual only works on an infant. Maybe it only works on an unborn creature (and she has to go find a pregnant female manticore to work her magic upon, if she wants some half-dragon manticores). Maybe the ritual requires her to kill the subject creature with her breath weapon, and the magic causes them to return instantly to life (with attendent penalties for resurrection), but with the half-dragon template, as she has 'burned away all that was mortal/weak/human' about the target, and left it draconic in nature.

And there's probably a few techniques to gain the half-dragon template that don't involve the participation of a dragon, that various sorcerers, wizards or priests have come up with over the centuries. Other than the quick and easy path of just blowing a wish or two...


I would say the relevant hybrid situations are those with the same elemental subtype. No pinks, okay? Second, the metallics and chromatics do have a divine backing, which means there could be crosstype hybrids such as gold/red, but only if the divinities supported it somehow, on a case by case basis. Such hybrids should be unique critters and crafted as such. For the rest of possible hybrids, then, go wild with colour wheels.

Liberty's Edge

I have put hybrids in, but they are exceedingly rare and have a strong reason for being in the game. I do use genetics to a certain extent and allow for a certain amount of non-dominance in the genes.

My colors are based on what I think would look dramatic for the hybrid and which color is dominant. Usually the non dominant color shows up in some style of marking or coloring (not a solid color usually)

@Sanjiv: I tend to think of dragons, drakes and wyverns as having the same ancestor. I use that due to the fact it applies to the real world. The reason they are all different is that they each evolved differently to fill different niches. I figured it was a similar situation with the Chromatics and Metallics.


In one of the ROTR volumes (I think FOTSG or SOTS) there is a lengthy discussion of what happens when Chromatic Dragons mate with each other...that might be a good place to start.


On pink dragons, let me say that I wholly approve a silver/red combo.

On drakes, dragons, and wyverns -- I thought drakes and dragons would not have evolved from the same source, simply because drakes have no arms. It's not that the arms would have evolved into something else, but they simply have two less limbs, it seems. Then again, who's to say that magic wasn't a strong part of that evolutionary process.

From 3.5, could Dragon Born reproduce? They weren't born naturally, but underwent a ceremony to be reborn as (kind of)dragons. Still, I don't know what would happen if two mated. I assume the situation for dragon borns would be similar dragons'.

Dark Archive

Chuck Wright wrote:

But mating isn't the only way to introduce cross-species draconic hybridization. Wizards looking to improve their minions, for example. (Having just checked I can say that the half-dragon template essentially says the same thing.)

Also, I think that it would be within a dragon's power to do such things without the use of candles and the "Say Anything" soundtrack.

No, but it is the most fun way. }; )

@Flamehawk
Oh I seem to recall dragons in Golarion are extra dimensional. This precludes them from having the same ancestor as a drake or wyvern. Btw suggesting such is a good way to get roasted/electrocuted/dissolved/etc.

This of course means dragons are technically a foreign invasive species and did not evolve into any niche, merely co-opted others.

Oh btw I'm pretty certain interspecies dragon hybrids are sterile. One would imagine that the incorporation of dragon genes would make such a specimen much more competitive versus the wild type, thus becoming the norm. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
That's why I imagine draconic society is tolerant of such unusual trysts, eventually they sort themselves out in an extremely short time. Sorry no manticore/dragon hybrid armies since they're non self sustaining.

Frog God Games

In the interest of sterility and completeness of thought -

Many offspring of crossbreeds are sterile In Real Life(tm) in that the male cannot reproduce. If the offspring is female, it is not always sterile. Which is why second-generation crossbreeds (ti-tigons and li-tigons) invariably have mothers being the first generation crossbreed contributers (the "tigon" part :) ).


Greetings, fellow travellers.

Me, personally, I'd go with the strict/complete dominance rule. In game terms: the dragon with the higher HD imposes its color on all of his/her offspring.

Ruyan.


But since we are talking genetics here, surely you mean the comparative CR, say, the dragon with the highest CR at au naturel great wyrm being dominant, and not the dragon with the highest CR at mating?


Hehe, this came to my mind just after I posted the above.
Thinking behind what I posted is having the dragon variant with the highest CR @ great wyrm power level be dominant - no matter at what age category the mating takes/took place.

On the other hand, if you want to go for variety let the one dragon with the highest CR at mating season be the dominant one!

Then again, this cross-dragon-color-mash-up-mating is nothing that will ever happen in my campaigns (and, alas, I hope, I will never see in any other campaign as player either).

Ruyan.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

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The Dragons of Golarion article from waaaay back in Pathfinder #4 states that amongst metallics, the mother's traits prove dominant in mixed pairings. So a Gold father and a Copper mother produces a Copper hatchling. Amongst chromatics, the father's traits prove dominant. So a Red father will always produce Red hatchlings, regardless of it's "mate's" color.

Crossbreeding between metallic and chromatic dragons is always by force and results in an abomination dragon: hoarfrost, rot, ruin, rust or suffocation.

Dark Archive

Vigil wrote:

The Dragons of Golarion article from waaaay back in Pathfinder #4 states that amongst metallics, the mother's traits prove dominant in mixed pairings. So a Gold father and a Copper mother produces a Copper hatchling. Amongst chromatics, the father's traits prove dominant. So a Red father will always produce Red hatchlings, regardless of it's "mate's" color.

Crossbreeding between metallic and chromatic dragons is always by force and results in an abomination dragon: hoarfrost, rot, ruin, rust or suffocation.

Which naturally of course makes no sense whatsoever besides being completely arbitrary. Then again the CR method is pretty much the same.

At that point your better off spinning the color wheel for results and using handwaving to justify it.

Liberty's Edge

@Alex Draconis: Ah. See I don't run or play in the Golarion setting so I was going of it as just an in general evolutionary thing.

As for the topic. I suppose it all comes down to how an individual GM wants to play with hybrid dragons. Or even if they have them in at all.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The way I would handle this would be to pick one of the parents and use the half-dragon template to generate the offspring. It's the easiest solution, and it's the most logical solution.

So a blue dragon that mates with a black dragon would produce either:

A half-blue dragon black dragon. Or a half-black dragon blue dragon.

I wouldn't call it a "Half-blue dragon black dragon" except in its stat block; it's actual name would either be the half-dragon dragon's name or some color combination, like a "midnight dragon" or an "indigo dragon."


Sanjiv Jagtap wrote:

The other question would be why dragons would mate with other creatures? With birds, for example, small rituals and flourishes are what distinguish species, even though their genetics might be compatible. I thought the same would be true for dragons, but then why would they mate with non dragons?

The answer is that they wouldn't. Unless they did so out of some experiment to create stronger minions, or something.

Because dragons are randy shapeshifters, that's why.


Cool this has helped alot thanks everyone for your thoughts in the matter.

Also what would become of a chrome/metal hybrid and would they always become an abomination? I.e Say an Old White dragon male raped adult silver female and still produced silver offspring what would become of them? Would the mother seek to destroy them, considering them vile spawn of the chromatics, treat them as if they were just normal silvers or exile them in the wild?

I was thinking of having a mixed offspring of this colour combination as they would be easier to figure out rules wise as they have the same breath weapons, immunities, weaknessess etc. What alignment could they be? Same as mothers or abit more chaotic due to their fathers heritage?

Dark Archive

Pharier wrote:
I was thinking of having a mixed offspring of this colour combination as they would be easier to figure out rules wise as they have the same breath weapons, immunities, weaknessess etc. What alignment could they be? Same as mothers or abit more chaotic due to their fathers heritage?

With creatures who don't have an alignment subtype, I'm more inclined to have nurture, instead of nature, determine what sort of 'person' they end up becoming.

If raised in exile, he's more likely to be bitter or even bestial (lacking a parent dragon to educate him) or to take on traits of those who did raise him (or local cultures that he spied upon, from on high or in hiding or whatever), and yet some 'rejects' go and reject those who rejected them right back and focus on becoming *better* than those who rejected them, to prove how wrong they were to dismiss them.

If raised by a silver parent, he *might* take on their philosophy and morals, or he *might* feel that he's 'the mistake' that is unloved and unwanted and little more than a painful memory or obligation (particularly if the parent goes on to have more traditional children whom she 'loves more') and become resentful and go down a darker path, making it *seem* like a self-fulfilling prophecy that he was 'born bad.' Or he might work twice as hard as a normal silver dragon hatchling, feeling like he has to prove that he's nothing like his white parent, or that he has to earn the respect or love or whatever that a 'normal' silver hatchling would get automatically, and end up being 'more silver than silver,' and blame every tiny little mistake on his heritage, while kind of missing the point that every other silver dragon out there is making the occasional mistake as well...

So, as with so many answers, I'd go with 'whatever the GM wants to advance the story' and find a rationalization for why *this* particular hybrid turned out like parent A, like parent B, like neither, like a little bit of both, or overcompensatorily 'more silver than silver.'

That, to me, is always the right answer. 'Whatever I want to advance the narrative.'


A black and blue dragon would probably just be a Bruise Dragon.

Does it get both breath weapons?


One of the plotpoints for our Absalom campaign is that the heroes have rescued one of the speckled dragons (Black + White) mentioned back in the ROTR AP. (We even have a paper mini that Battle! Studios did for us.)

They're trying to keep it secret until they can decide what to do with it being that most Chromatics that hear about it want to kill the little tyke.

Silver Crusade

There's actually a strong candidate for this sort of thing in Golarion canon from Dragons Revisited, with that white dragon "not-that-good-but-trying" playwright and her metallic mentor.

Silver Crusade

The gods have spoken, it's a half-dragon stat block with an awesome name.

Like my Sunrise Dragon a Red (male) gold (female) hybrid. Or at least they started like that but now breed true. They're nothing like golds or reds, and are well... interesting.


So hybrid dragons are always stronger? I guess I could dig it.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:

The way I would handle this would be to pick one of the parents and use the half-dragon template to generate the offspring. It's the easiest solution, and it's the most logical solution.

So a blue dragon that mates with a black dragon would produce either:

A half-blue dragon black dragon. Or a half-black dragon blue dragon.

I wouldn't call it a "Half-blue dragon black dragon" except in its stat block; it's actual name would either be the half-dragon dragon's name or some color combination, like a "midnight dragon" or an "indigo dragon."

This is how I've always handled it.


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Likewise, although in my case the mother is always the main part of the offspring, while the father would be the "half-dragon" part. Not that it happens often :)


Chuck Wright wrote:
Oh! Just checked my personal library and found that specific rules for hybridizing dragons in was fully covered in the 2E Forgotten Realms Draconomicon.

Oh nice, what does it say? I'll have to look it up. It's FR specific canon though.

I remember an 2e adventure from Dungeon (or was it a Dragon article/insert?) with a hybrid cloud/silver dragon named Aryzon Silvercloud.

Edit: he's from Dragon Annual 1 & 2: Wyrmsmere and Dragonwyr articles/adventures by Chris Perkins.


gigglestick wrote:
In one of the ROTR volumes (I think FOTSG or SOTS) there is a lengthy discussion of what happens when Chromatic Dragons mate with each other...that might be a good place to start.

Anyone care to summarize?


James Jacobs wrote:
I wouldn't call it a "Half-blue dragon black dragon" except in its stat block; it's actual name would either be the half-dragon dragon's name or some color combination, like a "midnight dragon" or an "indigo dragon."

So a Red Dragon and a White Dragon would birth a Pink Dragon?

Since its parents breathe flame and frost, the Pink Dragon should breathe luke-warm bubbles. This bubble-bath attack gives you a +2 Charisma bonus for 1d8 hours if you fail your Reflex save.


This discussion made a few things click in my head about how I want to handle dragons, which isn't quite like the Golarion view. I hadn't really thought about cross-breeding, just assumed dragons mated within their color or metal.

Which was causing me some trouble thinking about territories and ranges. So now I think any dragons can breed. The results will be predominately a mix of the two types involved, with the occasional throwback to other types.
My dragons have large clutches, with no parental involvment after birth and many not surviving the hatching and the first few weeks.

I don't really like the mix idea. It would mean cross-breeding would have to be very rare to avoid colors tending towards a mean.

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