Shield has a duration of 1 minute per level.
Evil Paizo!
I haven't played a Wizurd or Surcurur in PF yet... so I don't know such things :(
@Mike Schneider
I agree with a lot that you're saying, but you mentioned using stunning-fist in conjunction with Panther style to run amuck, draw AOOs, stun and then flurry the stunned foe next round.
This unfortunately does not work, as the stun ends just before the monk's next turn starts.
It ends right before you flurry him, meaning he is not stunned but he also did not have a turn to move before you flurry.
Monk two step is move up and stun, they lose a turn, then flurry.
I believe he also drops anything he's holding, with an AoO to pick anything up
Lets throw out some numbers... Not trying to prove a point, just trying to actually look at some data.
We'll take a Human Monk. STR 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 12 / INT: 10 / WIS: 14 / CHA: 8
We'll take a Human Fighter with STR: 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 14 / INT: 10 / WIS: 12 / CHA: 8
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah, this is bad and biased.
You give him a free 'companion casts a +4 AC spell on him for nothing. Might as well give the Fighter a free Barkskin spell himself. Note also that at 3rd level the spell only lasts 3 hours, not all day.
You also give him two pale cracked ioun stones, ignoring the effect that like effects don't stack unless they specifically state they do, and ignoring the fact that the FIGHTER would certainly want anything cheap that upped his TH/DMG. THe fighter will also want a +2 sword over some elemental damage...one more plus, and it passes cold iron. The best road to AC is always to get all your +1's before your +2's.
Can the Qinjong Monk cast his barkskin spell on others? It's effectively a cheap, free AC bonus for the whole party if he can.
==Aelryinth
Qingqong cannot cast barkskin on other IIRC.
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You give him a free 'companion casts a +4 AC spell on him for nothing.
I also recall adding as a parenthetical that he could cast it upon himself if he had the Dangerously Curious trait.
I agree with a lot that you're saying, but you mentioned using stunning-fist in conjunction with Panther style to run amuck, draw AOOs, stun and then flurry the stunned foe next round.
The mere fact that I had Panther Style and Stunning Fidt in my various posts concerning monks should not be construed as to mean that I deliberately use them all stupid and illegal in order to provide detractors on the internet with an easier time detracting.
This is why I always quote an argument when I am responding to it.
@ Aelrynth: If you can think of a good Hours/level spell to cast on the Fighter than he can get that to. Realistically, a wand will be needed to tide the Monk over to level 5. Otherwise, I fully concede that a Monk without that buff is like paper (although he can survive without it once he gets Barkskin on himself, if he has it up ahead of time--usually better off with Mage Armor). I've never had a problem having the buff when I need it, except when playing games with traveling and random encounters, where it's literally 24hrs or go home.
The Ioun Stones are not stacking, they are overlaping (one for +Hit, one for +Saves), and at that point the fighter had absolutely no problems hitting anything and IMO wouldn't bother with another +1 To-Hit. Although I admit that the items are probably not the most efficient for either class. I did it more/less off the top of my head.
Greater Magic Weapon is a good one because you can just get a weapon of +1 (lots of stuff) and then GMW it up to a +5
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A sensei QingGong monk could cast Barkskin on others after sixth level.
Very much so.
@ Aelrynth: If you can think of a good Hours/level spell to cast on the Fighter than he can get that to. Realistically, a wand will be needed to tide the Monk over to level 5. Otherwise, I fully concede that a Monk without that buff is like paper (although he can survive without it once he gets Barkskin on himself, if he has it up ahead of time--usually better off with Mage Armor). I've never had a problem having the buff when I need it, except when playing games with traveling and random encounters, where it's literally 24hrs or go home.
The Ioun Stones are not stacking, they are overlaping (one for +Hit, one for +Saves), and at that point the fighter had absolutely no problems hitting anything and IMO wouldn't bother with another +1 To-Hit. Although I admit that the items are probably not the most efficient for either class. I did it more/less off the top of my head.
Soul Gambit, a fighter can NEVER have too much bonus to hit...or saves.
Hitting is extra damage across all attacks. +1 to hit is +2 or +3 damage from Power Attack, possibly +1 AC from Expertise, and a cumulative 5% damage increase across all attacks, which rapidly outstrips any magical effect as your base damage grows.
Every bonus that makes your iteratives land is actually MORE valuable to the fighter then the monk. The monk is stretching to land his blows, but the fighter is looking for ways to power attack safely and multiply damage, because that is what he does.
Also, mage armor is easily the best of the cheap AC boosters, bar none. Note: It takes 25,000 gp to exceed the armor bonus a Mage Armor spell gives you by getting bracers. It's available at level 1. That's the equal of a level 16 Greater Magic Vestment, a level 3 spell, or a level 9 Barkskin, or a level 12 Shield of Faith.
It's huge and it's cheap, and that's why it's used this way...it sporks WBL.
===Aelryinth
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It is also, I kid you not, my litmus test for whether or not a Monk will do well in a game. I talk to whomever is playing the mage and be like, "Yo dude, can you cast Mage Armor on me as much as possible?" If yes, I play a Monk, and likely tie in backstories with that character and do other fun things during roleplay. If not, I look to another class.
While I agree that the party should work together, I don't think that it is reasonable to expect another party member to be the one to shore up your weaknesses. Sure, he can cast mage armor on you, but why should he be expected to? Shouldn't that be his decision based on tactics for that combat?
When I build a character, I build him in a vacuum (exception: Teamwork Feats). I need to see what he can do on his own. Now if he is acceptable the way he's built and the wizard still wants to beef him up, that's awesome. I won't object. I just don't think that I should expect anyone to beef up my characters.
A sensei QingGong monk could cast Barkskin on others after sixth level.
Isn't it impossible to have two different archetypes at once?
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Well you can buy the wizard a wand of Mage Armour and he casts it on you from that one. No harm done to him.
Or you get the trait and do it yourself.
No. You can have as many archetypes as you want. So long as no two replace the same class feature.
A sensei QingGong monk could cast Barkskin on others after sixth level.Isn't it impossible to have two different archetypes at once?
You can stack up the archetypes as long as there is no overlap anywheres between any of them; to my knowledge, this effectively caps you out at 3 archetypes for a class. Since Qingqong's swaps are all optional, you can slap it ontop of any other monk archetype.
No. You can have as many archetypes as you want. So long as no two replace the same class feature.
Oh well... thanks... now you crushed my power gaming dreams just as they emerged :(
But what is with archetypes that make you have only one domain... could you take two of them? Because technically they don't replace the same ability... ^^
No you cannot. They replace the ability to pick two domains with the ability to only pick one domain.
The only "good" monk at 15 point buy is arguably the zen archer since they aren't mad.
... Shock, Flaming, Frost to my weapon, ...
Damage: 1d2 + 22 + 1d6 acid + 1d6 cold + 1d6 fire + 1d6 electricity
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure
Shock: Upon command, a shock [or flaming or frost] weapon ... deals an extra 1d6 points of electricity damage on a successful hit. The electricity does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.means that you can't have your flaming, frost, shock weapon do 1d6 fire + 1d6 cold + 1d6 electricity. It can only be one of them at any given time.
The general assumption AFAIK is that it is a "Shocking Flaming Frost" longsword, not a "Shocking and Flaming and Frost" longsword, IE the elemental component is all one ability; a single command can activate all three; the drawback would be that they can't be activated apart from one another either.
The only "good" monk at 15 point buy is arguably the zen archer since they aren't mad.
another possibility is a pure defensive monk. Give him weapon finesse unarmed strike. Ok atk not great damage. Specializes in holding up afew melee opponents or even range touch opponents. Gives the rest of the party a bit of breathing room to slay whatever their facing before backing up the monk. It works. I'm currently playing one.
The only "good" monk at 15 point buy is arguably the zen archer since they aren't mad.another possibility is a pure defensive monk. Give him weapon finesse unarmed strike. Ok atk not great damage. Specializes in holding up afew melee opponents or even range touch opponents. Gives the rest of the party a bit of breathing room to slay whatever their facing before backing up the monk. It works. I'm currently playing one.
So he's a giant wall that can move fast, he sounds like a goal keeper to me. ;P
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SKR posted in a thread, somewhere, on here about the whole command word. A magic item can have more than one command word. So one for Fire, one for Fire & Frost, one for Frost, one for Shock, etc. You just say the word for the one you want right now, or the word to turn them off. It has to be able to have more than one, since you can have multiple enchantments on the same object.
@Aelryinth: I actually realized that the Fighter can fit in both Ioun Stones for only 1k over the price it takes him to upgrade his cloak from +3 to +4. So sure, +1 To-Hit and +22 DPR.
And Mage Armor no more breaks WBL than a suit of Chainmail. Much less Full-Plate's +9! It is amazing, but the Monk being able to use it while other melee classes can not is the definition of an advantage.
It is also, I kid you not, my litmus test for whether or not a Monk will do well in a game. I talk to whomever is playing the mage and be like, "Yo dude, can you cast Mage Armor on me as much as possible?" If yes, I play a Monk, and likely tie in backstories with that character and do other fun things during roleplay. If not, I look to another class.
Exceptions: High Level games, very high point buys, or if I know the rest of the party is not optimized.
Mage Armor breaks WBL because you pay for Chainmail with a medium armor proficiency and taking a class that has to wear armor, in addition to the gold.
Such classes also don't get Wis to AC, which is uncapped and works as touch AC, and they don't have an uncapped Dex bonus to AC, or restrictions on movement. Wis to AC is a buffable Touch AC, its why it's not quite as nice as armor...but it does scale with class level, and there IS no cap.
You are, in effect, relying on someone else's class benefit, for a +4 stacking bonus. STACKING. That's important. People repeatedly said their monks can get high AC at low levels, and mage armor borking is a good chunk of that.
:) I'm not being judgmental of the style and teamwork. I'm just saying its not apples to apples. The Fighter is expected to be self-contained, but you can buff up the monk and compare straight on. Not fair.
==Aelryinth
You are, in effect, relying on someone else's class benefit, for a +4 stacking bonus.
What nonsense is all this? You dont have to rely on anyone to get mage armor... its 750 gp and some skill ranks. The gold is less than the cost of +1 armor and the skill ranks are probably the best spent ranks you can have as almost any class.
If you can bypass this by lucking into someone in your party being able to spare you a spell slot, more power to you... but you're by no means dependant on them for the effect.
You are, in effect, relying on someone else's class benefit, for a +4 stacking bonus.What nonsense is all this? You dont have to rely on anyone to get mage armor... its 750 gp and some skill ranks. The gold is less than the cost of +1 armor and the skill ranks are probably the best spent ranks you can have as almost any class.
If you can bypass this by lucking into someone in your party being able to spare you a spell slot, more power to you... but you're by no means dependant on them for the effect.
Using UMD to bork a comparison is no different the borking the numbers by buying potions instead.
You're spending gold for temporary benefits that spike your abilities. Whether you do it with UMD or potions is trivial...it's still not something you should use in comparisons.
"My class is awesome because I took UMD ranks, OR someone else buffs me!" really isn't an argument for a class...it's an argument for UMD and free/cheap buffs. UMD is NOT a class ability.
Also, reliable use of UMD doesn't really happen until after level 5 with that DC 20 check for wands.
===Aelryinth
Wisdom 18 Dex 14 starting (actually wisdom 16+2 racial) Str 14.
So that's 16 starting off. We'll go crane style cause I like it level 8 I can have all three on any monk, which means I'm +4 (ranks in acrobatics) more for only a -1 on my attacks, means I'm up to a 20 already.
+2 from an item on wisdom gives a +1
+2 to wisdom from leveling up gives another +1
Dodge gives a +1
Bracers of Armor gives +2
Ring for a +1
Monk for +2
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for +1
Qing Gong it for barkskin and we have a 32 at level 8. Mage armor would allow me to increase the armor bonus to 34, while a point of ki would be a 38, without mage armor a 36 for the round.
Just pointing this out again because it doesn't pull out the "mage armor" stuff that Aelyyinth doesn't like but does have sufficient AC. without resorting to wicked crazy stats. In fact there are stat points left over for a 14 strength, and if you go dwarf you'll have a 12 con using a 20 point buy and not dumping anything. I would suggest dumping some Int personally for a 14 con after racial adjustment myself.
For a fifteen point buy I would suggest completely dumping Cha and dumping a point out of Int to have 14 str 14 dex 12 con 9 int 18 wis and 5 cha.
Lowering the level to 4 will still allow for barkskin +2 and dodge +1 as well as bracers of armor +1 and the +1 from being a monk and possibly the ring +1 to allow an AC of 22 without anything special going on, and having 2,000gp left for a +1 weapon of some flavor. This doesn't use Crane style at this point either, using it would give a +4 bonus with a -2 to hit for a total AC of 26.
The only "good" monk at 15 point buy is arguably the zen archer since they aren't mad.STR14,DEX14,CON12,INT10,WIS17,CHA07 = 15pts. Swap the 17 and a 14 to taste.
Meh.
That is before racial adjustments.
Take a dwarf and switch the strength with the wisdom and you have:
Str 17 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 5
Which is a solid enough monk.
You're spending gold for temporary benefits that spike your abilities. Whether you do it with UMD or potions is trivial...it's still not something you should use in comparisons.===Aelryinth
Temporary benefits? Spiking your abilities?
A wand of Mage Armor is 750 gold, and lasts for 50 hours. One or two will last you your entire career. Thats like saying that you can't count a suit of full plate which costs as much as a pair... which is likely to be unavailable in any situation the monk couldn't get his armor running a wand, as well.
It can and should be used in comparisons, because its something no competitive monk should leave home without... because monks benefit from it more than pretty much anyone else.
It can and should be used in comparisons, because its something no competitive monk should leave home without... because monks benefit from it more than pretty much anyone else.
You are opening a can of worms.
Said worms are from the Age of Worms.
It is a can that can only be closed by 20th level adventurers and a lot of luck.
It's a can that says very simply "if you can do it what stops me from doing it?"
In other words nothing stops the other guy from doing something very similar. That's why UMD typically remains out of these discussions they skew the results and are not a fair evaluation of the class or feature in question
Honestly, my Zen Archer monk just dipped 2 levels into Sorcerer, got a trait for a +1 caster level, and Mage Armored himself. Got some other nifty benefits too (like the ability to heal good people 1d4 hp per day at range!). I loved it, had a great time with him. Looking forward to playing him again some day.
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Meh.The only "good" monk at 15 point buy is arguably the zen archer since they aren't mad.STR14,DEX14,CON12,INT10,WIS17,CHA07 = 15pts. Swap the 17 and a 14 to taste.
How do you figure?
-- If you want a STR-based monk, you put the 17 in STR and shift the 14 to WIS. If you want an Agile monk, you do the same with DEX. For Zen or Ki-crunchers, leave it the way it is.
It's a can that says very simply "if you can do it what stops me from doing it?"
Perhaps I can be enlightened as to what another class can accomplish with a similar investment with UMD that is at all comparable to the benefit the monk receives?
Things like wands of shield last only a minute, and are therefore less useful. Wands of 2nd level (and better) spells are significantly more expensive (IE, more than the cost of armor on the low end for other classes).
Its just my opinion that when monks, for the cost of decent armor for anyone else, can acquire comparable armor via UMD, they should be allowed to include that for comparisons sake. Especially when that particular method of increasing AC is not comparably good for everyone else; they spend their money on normal armor.
Wisdom 18 Dex 14 starting (actually wisdom 16+2 racial) Str 14.
So that's 16 starting off. We'll go crane style cause I like it level 8 I can have all three on any monk, which means I'm +4 (ranks in acrobatics) more for only a -1 on my attacks, means I'm up to a 20 already.
+2 from an item on wisdom gives a +1
+2 to wisdom from leveling up gives another +1
Dodge gives a +1
Bracers of Armor gives +2
Ring for a +1
Monk for +2
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone for +1Qing Gong it for barkskin and we have a 32 at level 8. Mage armor would allow me to increase the armor bonus to 34, while a point of ki would be a 38, without mage armor a 36 for the round.
Just pointing this out again because it doesn't pull out the "mage armor" stuff that Aelyyinth doesn't like but does have sufficient AC. without resorting to wicked crazy stats. In fact there are stat points left over for a 14 strength, and if you go dwarf you'll have a 12 con using a 20 point buy and not dumping anything. I would suggest dumping some Int personally for a 14 con after racial adjustment myself.
For a fifteen point buy I would suggest completely dumping Cha and dumping a point out of Int to have 14 str 14 dex 12 con 9 int 18 wis and 5 cha.
Lowering the level to 4 will still allow for barkskin +2 and dodge +1 as well as bracers of armor +1 and the +1 from being a monk and possibly the ring +1 to allow an AC of 22 without anything special going on, and having 2,000gp left for a +1 weapon of some flavor. This doesn't use Crane style at this point either, using it would give a +4 bonus with a -2 to hit for a total AC of 26.
Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.
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Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.
Monks need to spend a feat for that. Remember that monks aren't prof. with all monk weapons, the unarmed fighters are.
Monks need to spend a feat for that. Remember that monks aren't prof. with all monk weapons, the unarmed fighters are.
Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.
Exactly this -- I had considered grabbing say the bo staff, but the shield bonus is fairly minor and I didn't have the feats to comfortably take it (especially since I was talking about going dwarf). However it is certainly an option and would put the AC up to 27. A point of Ki would make it 31.
Monks need to spend a feat for that. Remember that monks aren't prof. with all monk weapons, the unarmed fighters are.
Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.
That is one of the dumbest things I have seen in the book. Monks can't get them at first level, but even Geisha can.
That is one of the dumbest things I have seen in the book. Monks can't get them at first level, but even Geisha can.Monks need to spend a feat for that. Remember that monks aren't prof. with all monk weapons, the unarmed fighters are.
Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.
Its something of a decent perk for Geisha though.
If you can bypass this by lucking into someone in your party being able to spare you a spell slot, more power to you... but you're by no means dependant on them for the effect.
Monk: Would you cast it for a scooby sna.. pearl of power?
Wizard: NO!
Monk: How about TWO pearls of power?
Wizard: Oh boy! ya ya ya!
Meh.The only "good" monk at 15 point buy is arguably the zen archer since they aren't mad.STR14,DEX14,CON12,INT10,WIS17,CHA07 = 15pts. Swap the 17 and a 14 to taste.How do you figure?
-- If you want a STR-based monk, you put the 17 in STR and shift the 14 to WIS. If you want an Agile monk, you do the same with DEX. For Zen or Ki-crunchers, leave it the way it is.
Feels like I'm going to be crushed in melee is all because of the low ac. It kind of feels like playing a halfling cavalier, yeah you can do it. The character is just going to be weak. However I could be wrong and the character could do fine and someone's campaign. My dm likes to make encounters tough is all and running around with 15-17 ac in melee is scary considering the character only has a con of 12.
Feels like I'm going to be crushed in melee is all because of the low ac. It kind of feels like playing a halfling cavalier, yeah you can do it. The character is just going to be weak. However I could be wrong and the character could do fine and someone's campaign. My dm likes to make encounters tough is all and running around with 15-17 ac in melee is scary considering the character only has a con of 12.
I've already pointed out that those were pre-racial bonus stats, and I've statted up a monk through 4th level with almost those exact stats with an AC of 22~26. Not sure how much else you would want.
I've already pointed out that those were pre-racial bonus stats, and I've statted up a monk through 4th level with almost those exact stats with an AC of 22~26. Not sure how much else you would want.
I think you need to check your math... Mike included a +2 floating bonus to Wisdom. The dwarf stat array you posted is actually a 21 point buy. Not that that particularly changes the AC range, but it should be pointed out.
Anyway, I would absolutely consider the 15 point-buy monk viable. The 14/14/12/10/17/7 array would likely do fine in an AP or module, but if you have a more challenging GM I'd go 7/14/14/13/18/7 Sensei. Stick to buffs, combat maneuvers, and being a flanking buddy, and use a ki point for AC and run for it when things get too hairy. Your damage would be horribly low, but then trying to compete in that category with SAD melee monsters is tough even for higher point-buy monks. Stick with something you are good at, and let someone else get covered in monster blood.
Feels like I'm going to be crushed in melee is all because of the low ac. It kind of feels like playing a halfling cavalier, yeah you can do it. The character is just going to be weak. However I could be wrong and the character could do fine and someone's campaign. My dm likes to make encounters tough is all and running around with 15-17 ac in melee is scary considering the character only has a con of 12.I've already pointed out that those were pre-racial bonus stats, and I've statted up a monk through 4th level with almost those exact stats with an AC of 22~26. Not sure how much else you would want.
You're telling me that STR14,DEX14,CON12,INT10,WIS17,CHA07=15 point buy?
5+5+2+0+13-4=21 point buy. If the level 4 wis was boosted to 17 it would still be an 18 point buy. However you're right if you invest the majority of your money and your stats into defense you can get 22 armor.
If you can bypass this by lucking into someone in your party being able to spare you a spell slot, more power to you... but you're by no means dependant on them for the effect.Monk: Would you cast it for a scooby sna.. pearl of power?
Wizard: NO!
Monk: How about TWO pearls of power?
Wizard: Oh boy! ya ya ya!
The Pearl of Power is actually cheaper than Full Plate too :P
But you can't UMD it to produce a mage armor effect sadly :(
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That is one of the dumbest things I have seen in the book. Monks can't get them at first level, but even Geisha can.Monks need to spend a feat for that. Remember that monks aren't prof. with all monk weapons, the unarmed fighters are.
Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.
Monks are not fighters -- why should they be proficient in everything?
"Monk" just means the weapon could be flurried with [i]if[//i] you were proficient.
-- A fighter isn't proficient in every weapon either; there's lots of exotic junk he could conceivably pick up in his Weapon Training groups which he is not proficient with.