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Are monks really that bad?


Advice

101 to 150 of 283 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Andoran

SoulGambit wrote:
Then, the Front-Line fighter needs to think about damage. There are a couple ways to take care of DPR. One way is to use a Temple Sword in both hands (for the more favorable Power Attack Ratio). Seriously consider the Weapon Adept if you go this rout, it'll save you some feats and net you +2 damage. The second is to be a Martial Artist so you can ignore DR/Hardness. If the latter, you probably want to go the Medusa's Wrath rout. Note that this is the only way I've seen the "Unarmed Damage Dealer" work.
Weapon Adepts give up Evasion and Stunning Fist -- not so bad for dippers, but noticeable deficiencies in long-haul monks.
Quote:
The alternative is to allow damage to take a back seat and play a Support Fighter role. At that point your goal is not to eliminate threats, but to make sure your allies are engaging those threats on their terms.

It's pretty easy to kill something once it's stunned.

Osirion

Maxximilius wrote:
Sanakht Inaros wrote:
The entire "monks are weak" thing is a fallacy. In the last couple of campaigns, the monk was the most powerful character in the party (core rulebook build). The only one who came close to the monk in damage and AC was the paladin when using smite. The guy playing the monk has retired the characters because he saw that no one else was having fun. I've seen some badly built monks and badly run monks. It just depends on the player.
I would be interested to see the build of this vanilla monk and of his fellow players...

I've known the guy playing the paladin for a few years. He knows two things very well: paladins and wizards. The guy playing the monks, has just joined the group. So far he's built a very, very effective combat rogue (did almost as much damage as the fighter, and with sneak attack he'd been on par or slightly better damage wise). He has helped his wife build a very effective ninja, rogue, and now a monk (though we have yet to see her in combat).

This entire X is better than Y thing is just crap. It comes down to the player. I've seen awesome character builds on paper, but the player running them...not so much. I've also seen the reverse, very crappy character builds that the player made awesome. My name sake character is a bard, if I play him seriously (which I rarely do anymore) I break mods. I've taken combat intensive mods and ruined them for the fighters. On paper, he's not the best build out there but I know what he can and cannot do.

The way I see it, the game is SUPPOSED to be F U N. Telling someone that their character concept is weak or stupid is in and of itself weak and stupid. The group I'm in now, comes up with character ideas BEFORE we roll up the character not the other way around.

Andoran

leo1925 wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:
Sanakht Inaros wrote:
The entire "monks are weak" thing is a fallacy. In the last couple of campaigns, the monk was the most powerful character in the party (core rulebook build). The only one who came close to the monk in damage and AC was the paladin when using smite. The guy playing the monk has retired the characters because he saw that no one else was having fun. I've seen some badly built monks and badly run monks. It just depends on the player.
I would be interested to see the build of this vanilla monk and of his fellow players...
Same here, there has to be a mistake either on the part of the monk or the way all the other characters are built.

Well; let's break it down: suppose a 16th level monk wearing Monk's Robes with Medusa's Wrath: He winds up adjacent to something with a high DEX bonus to AC and a mediocre fort-save (i.e., typical boss arcane caster, like an evil fey). Bam! First attack is a Stunning Fist, and 2nd is Greater Trip = instant screw job as opponent's AC has swirled down the toilet -- and it's actually possible that every single one of the total of eleven Flurry+Medusa+Ki+Haste attacks will hit, with each dishing out 2d10 base dice before anything else.

That's potentially 22d10 worth of dice!

Factoring in feats, stat bonuses, several types of grooviness in his Amulet, the high chance of crits with that many attacks, and everything else the build or the party have going granting other damage buffs, -- anything he nails down in a full-attack will literally explode.


Mike Schneider wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:
Sanakht Inaros wrote:
The entire "monks are weak" thing is a fallacy. In the last couple of campaigns, the monk was the most powerful character in the party (core rulebook build). The only one who came close to the monk in damage and AC was the paladin when using smite. The guy playing the monk has retired the characters because he saw that no one else was having fun. I've seen some badly built monks and badly run monks. It just depends on the player.
I would be interested to see the build of this vanilla monk and of his fellow players...
Same here, there has to be a mistake either on the part of the monk or the way all the other characters are built.

Well; let's break it down: suppose a 16th level monk wearing Monk's Robes with Medusa's Wrath: He winds up adjacent to something with a high DEX bonus to AC and a mediocre fort-save (i.e., typical boss arcane caster, like an evil fey). Bam! First attack is a Stunning Fist, and 2nd is Greater Trip = instant screw job as opponent's AC has swirled down the toilet -- and it's actually possible that every single one of the total of eleven Flurry+Medusa+Ki+Haste attacks will hit, with each dishing out 2d10 base dice before anything else.

That's potentially 22d10 worth of dice!

Factoring in feats, stat bonuses, several types of grooviness in his Amulet, the high chance of crits with that many attacks, and everything else the build or the party have going granting other damage buffs, -- anything he nails down in a full-attack will literally explode.

Didn't you trade one of your attacks for tripping?


I completely agree that a monk that can land a Flurry is devastating. I don't think Monks are weak--I do think Rogues are weak, though, and so nothing is gained by comparing anything to them.

But while I don't think Monks are weak, I do think Monks are traps.

Gaining a second stat to AC in exchange for Armor is not actually a favorable AC trade unless you have a very high Point Buy or stupid luck rolling stats, especially because, under normal circumstances, neither of those AC stats helps with your attacks or damage.

In a certain kind of game (one in which you have control over what magic items are available to you), Weapon Finesse, that cheap Piranha feat, and an Agile weapon controls this issue somewhat. It's not perfect, though, because you will need special materials to overcome DR. It's one thing to have a Cold Iron Siangham, a set of Adamantine Nunchaku, and a Silvered Kama, like most monks have (actually most probably use Temple Swords for this), but the Dex Monk is going to have to make them all Agile or else lose lots of damage. The cost of all those weapons is going to get excessive.

In a game with slightly less control, but still fairly ubiquitous magic items, a Wand of Mage Armor will help a lot.

In most games, though, you will just have to take Strength as your primary, Wisdom as your second, and accept that AC is one of your weaknesses. It's ok, you still have great non-AC defenses (great saves, Evasion, Still Mind, SR, etc.), so magic is less of an issue. And when you can get Barkskin through the Qinggong Archetype (all monks should do this!), you'll catch up in the AC department.

Most people who see Monks will go Wisdom and Dexterity regardless of Agile enchantments. Most will try to utilize the Monk's mobility, but moving screws your damage. Many will go all out with every Maneuver feat, but ignore that most maneuvers are lousy anyway, and that they should really mostly be used to facilitate you Flurrying.

Just remember that Flurrying is your #1 priority. All that mobility crap is generally a Trap--use it to get into Flurrying position and then stay still as much as you can!


mplindustries wrote:

I completely agree that a monk that can land a Flurry is devastating. I don't think Monks are weak--I do think Rogues are weak, though, and so nothing is gained by comparing anything to them.

But while I don't think Monks are weak, I do think Monks are traps.

Gaining a second stat to AC in exchange for Armor is not actually a favorable AC trade unless you have a very high Point Buy or stupid luck rolling stats, especially because, under normal circumstances, neither of those AC stats helps with your attacks or damage.

In a certain kind of game (one in which you have control over what magic items are available to you), Weapon Finesse, that cheap Piranha feat, and an Agile weapon controls this issue somewhat. It's not perfect, though, because you will need special materials to overcome DR. It's one thing to have a Cold Iron Siangham, a set of Adamantine Nunchaku, and a Silvered Kama, like most monks have (actually most probably use Temple Swords for this), but the Dex Monk is going to have to make them all Agile or else lose lots of damage. The cost of all those weapons is going to get excessive.

In a game with slightly less control, but still fairly ubiquitous magic items, a Wand of Mage Armor will help a lot.

In most games, though, you will just have to take Strength as your primary, Wisdom as your second, and accept that AC is one of your weaknesses. It's ok, you still have great non-AC defenses (great saves, Evasion, Still Mind, SR, etc.), so magic is less of an issue. And when you can get Barkskin through the Qinggong Archetype (all monks should do this!), you'll catch up in the AC department.

Most people who see Monks will go Wisdom and Dexterity regardless of Agile enchantments. Most will try to utilize the Monk's mobility, but moving screws your damage. Many will go all out with every Maneuver feat, but ignore that most maneuvers are lousy anyway, and that they should really mostly be used to facilitate you Flurrying.

Just remember that Flurrying is your #1 priority. All that...

You will have to substitute the materials via enhancement bonus. This is incredible expensive with the amulet of mighty fists but yet the best approach on that matter. It is especially expensive once you rely on Agile Enchantments (which is the best approach for a monk in general!).

So 15pb would be
8 16 14 7 16 7

As a Human that would be
8 18 14 7 16 7

... the only problem is that this build is hell the first 6 levels or so, until you can afford an Agile Amulet of mighty fists...

But your AC starts out at 17. A reliable way to boost this would take the trait that makes UMD a Class Skill and maybe take a Skill Focus (UMD) and even invest a skillpoint every level in UMD. Now you can easily activate Wands of Shield early on which gives you 4 AC for almost no cost.

Andoran

Quote:
Didn't you trade one of your attacks for tripping?

With Greater Trip, you get an opp if successful.


Alienfreak wrote:
You will have to substitute the materials via enhancement bonus. This is incredible expensive with the amulet of mighty fists but yet the best approach on that matter. It is especially expensive once you rely on Agile Enchantments (which is the best approach for a monk in general!).

I don't agree that it's the best. I mean, in an ideal world with infinite cash and a guarantee you can have any item you want, sure, but in the vast majority of cases, you're better off going Strength > Wis > Dex=Con and accepting that you'll get hit more often than the Fighter.

Alienfreak wrote:
... the only problem is that this build is hell the first 6 levels or so, until you can afford an Agile Amulet of mighty fists...

And then it's hell for all the levels after that when you face enemies with odd kinds of DR before you can overcome all the different types with pure bonuses because you blew all your money on the amulet instead of on a variety of weapons made of different materials.

I'm sorry, I still think Strength is a safer bet.

Alienfreak wrote:
But your AC starts out at 17. A reliable way to boost this would take the trait that makes UMD a Class Skill and maybe take a Skill Focus (UMD) and even invest a skillpoint every level in UMD. Now you can easily activate Wands of Shield early on which gives you 4 AC for almost no cost.

Wouldn't Mage Armor be a better wand to get? That lasts for an hour per casting for dirt cheap. And you can just let your party's arcane caster (or UMD user who doesn't dump Charisma) to use the wand on you instead.


mplindustries wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
You will have to substitute the materials via enhancement bonus. This is incredible expensive with the amulet of mighty fists but yet the best approach on that matter. It is especially expensive once you rely on Agile Enchantments (which is the best approach for a monk in general!).

I don't agree that it's the best. I mean, in an ideal world with infinite cash and a guarantee you can have any item you want, sure, but in the vast majority of cases, you're better off going Strength > Wis > Dex=Con and accepting that you'll get hit more often than the Fighter.

Alienfreak wrote:
... the only problem is that this build is hell the first 6 levels or so, until you can afford an Agile Amulet of mighty fists...

And then it's hell for all the levels after that when you face enemies with odd kinds of DR before you can overcome all the different types with pure bonuses because you blew all your money on the amulet instead of on a variety of weapons made of different materials.

I'm sorry, I still think Strength is a safer bet.

Alienfreak wrote:
But your AC starts out at 17. A reliable way to boost this would take the trait that makes UMD a Class Skill and maybe take a Skill Focus (UMD) and even invest a skillpoint every level in UMD. Now you can easily activate Wands of Shield early on which gives you 4 AC for almost no cost.
Wouldn't Mage Armor be a better wand to get? That lasts for an hour per casting for dirt cheap. And you can just let your party's arcane caster (or UMD user who doesn't dump Charisma) to use the wand on you instead.

One caster with Craft Wondrous Item isnt rocket science. And he can enchant for the price at which you sell random loot... so he should be able to keep it up until it is at least +3 (at which point different materials aren't that important anymore...)

And one weapon with a maximum enhancement is usually better than different ones because the +to hit will increase your damage greatly

Mage Armor is good at low levels but later gets redundant with bracers of armor

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Kamelguru wrote:
Bomanz wrote:
I seriously don't get the whole "Monks have lousy AC" trope...I have yet to see any game, home brew 25pt buy or PFS or anything where the monk didn't have the highest AC by at least 4, and often 6-10 AC points, and that was before the ki channeling for an additional 4.

I'd like to see this explained. How does a monk have better AC than a fighter in level-appropriate armor, barring cherry-picking of items on the monk's part, and not on the fighter's.

Lets set the level arbitrarily at 8:

Fighter totally unoptimized for AC: Fullplate+2, Dex13. Leaves him with 22. Hardly GOOD, but this guy is likely doing around 50-70 damage per round, since all his stats, money and feats are going towards hurting someone real bad. Hits reliably and hard.

Fighter considering AC: Fullplate+2, Maguffin+1, Dex14+2, Dodge. Suddenly 26. A more balanced build.

Fighter optimized for AC: Fullplate+2, Shield+2, Two maguffins+1, dodge, combat expertise and shield focus, Dex14+2. AC32 unless his shield is a tower shield. Not gonna hit too hard or reliably.

How does a monk beat this by at least 4?

8th level dwarf monk

20 pt buy (PFS standard)
str 20 (10pt, plus 2 for leveling, plus 2 for belt)
dex 12 (2 pt)
Con 16 (5 pt, plus 2 racial)
int 10
wis 18 (5pt, plus 2 racial, plus 2 belt)
chr 6 (-2, minus 2 racial)

Quiggong power @ lvl 4 barkskin (+3 NA, 80 minutes, 1 ki)
bracers of armor +3, ring of protection +2, headband of wisdom +2, belt of strength +2, amulet of mighty fist +1, plus 3000gp of crap

AC: 26 (with dodge) if you fight defensively (with acrobatics and crane style your AC goes to 30+. Note that this is not an AC optimized monk with a 12 dex))

chance to hit in a flurry: +13/+13/+8/+8 (with wpn focus). damage is d10+6 x 4.

Is it the fighter's equal? no. Is it good enough to be a valuable combatant? yes. When you factor in the best saves in the game, plus all of your myriad of other abilities, you have a character every bit as good as other classes.

People really become myopic about character building. Just because a class is not the BEST at any one thing does not make them ineffective. being good enough at many things can be invaluable in a party.

Andoran

Plain-vanilla human PFS monk built with 15,14,14,14,12,07, array, STR-based:

STR:14, DEX:14, CON:12, INT:14, WIS+17, CHA:07
Traits: Threatening Defender

01 [Dodge], Mobility, Combat Expertise

...buy a wand of Mage Armor with 2 prestige points; arcane ally casts it. (Having the Dangerously Curious traits permits us to do it ourselves.)

02 [Combat Reflexes]

...AC17, or 21 moving through threat; +4 for Mage Armor. Combat Expertise is on 100% of the time prior to BAB4 due to Threatening Defender alleviating the penalty.

03 Improved Trip

...buy RingPro; AC 18/22/26

04 [AC+1][Ki Pool], WIS>18

...buy headband; AC 21/25/29/33(ki)

So, with Mage Armor and dorking a point of Ki, a plain vanilla human monk is potentially already up in the 30s at 4th level with three common pieces of equipment and core traits and feats.


Aye, incidentally, I found Ultimate Magic to be one of the bigger boosts to the monk with Qingqong. Go Hungry Ghost + Qingqong to gain some more utility and staying power if you go temple sword.

Now for the Elven Kensai Magus that I promised earlier for comparison.

Stats initial (final):
Str: 13, Dex: 18 (32), Con: 12 (18), Int: 18 (26), Wis: 11, Cha: 7
HP: 183

Feats, bonus feat:
1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
3: Dervish Dance
5: Combat Expertise, Extend Spell
7: Step up
9: Extra Arcana
11: Extend Spell, Power Attack
13: Extra Arcana
15: Extra Arcana
17: Extra Arcana, Greater Weapon Focus
19: Extra Arcana

Arcana:
3: Arcane Accuracy
6: Prescient Attack
9: Ghost Blade
12: Dispelling Strike
13: Prescient Defense
15: Bane Blade, Reflection
17: Quickened Magic
18: Critical Strike
19: Maximize Magic

Items:
Belt of Physical Might (Dex and Con) +6
Headband of Superior Intellect +6
Ring of Protection +5
Cloak of Resistance +5
Manual of Quickness in Action +5 (already used)
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Stone of Good Luck +1
+1 Speed, Defending, Corrosive, Brilliant Energy Scimitar
I still have well over 100k to spend on expensive components, spells, and any other campaign expenditures.

Spells prepared:
0: Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Spark, Prestitidigitation
1: Mage Armor, Shield, Shield, Reduce Person, Unseen Servant, Shocking Grasp
2: Intensified Shocking Grasp, Intensified Shocking Grasp, Mirror Image, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Invisibilty
3: Greater Magic Weapon, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Arcane Sight, Arcane Sight, Versatile Weapon
4: Greater Invisibilty, Dimension Door, Dimension Door, Arcana Theft, Arcana Theft, Greater Invisibilty
5: Overland Flight, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Monstrous Physique 3, Monstrous Physique 3
6: Sirocco, Sirocco, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic, Monstrous Physique 4

Attack: 15/15/10/5 (assuming power attack, combat expertise, spell combat, and fighting defensively; note that because of brilliant energy, I am effectively going against touch AC)

AC: 50, Touch: 46, Flat-footed: irrelevant because I am never surprised and always go on a 41.

Saves: 22/23/18
CMD: 37 (if campaign is CMB/CMD, I can easily adjust a few luxuries to boost CMD to 52)

Damage: 1d6 + 19 +1d6 acid (18-20/x3 with a +8 to confirm)

These numbers are before buffs, (with mage armor and greater magic weapon already cast). On the openning round, I use arcane pool to add Bane (against whatever I'm fighting), Keen, Shock, Flaming, Frost to my weapon, and cast Monstrous Physique to turn into a diminuitive humanoid. Adjusted numbers are below:

Attack: 22/22/17/12
AC: 60, Touch: 56
Damage: 1d2 + 22 + 1d6 acid + 1d6 cold + 1d6 fire + 1d6 electricity + 2d6 untyped (15-20/x3), average of 44.5

Second Round using arcane accuracy and intensified shocking grasp

Attack: 29/29/29/24/19
Similar damage, except adding 10d6 electricity to one attack.

Now you can do the number comparisons yourselves, but the point is that my numbers are close enough except the CMD which 70 seems awfully high unless I'm forgetting a few bonuses that add to it. What the point is that while both of these characters serve very similar roles in combat, my character can very significantly contribute outside of combat with spreading around invis, arcane sight, true seeing, teleport, etc. in addition to having nearly twice as many skill points. Mechanically, there's really no reason to go monk over kensai.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You are not going against touch AC.

You are going against ac without Armor or Shield. Nat Armor still works perfectly fine.

And that sword is perfectly useless against anything with DR/Material, constructs, and undead. It's also very useless against Dragons and other creatures with high nat ac.

Against human fighters? Sure, it rocks.

I'd like to point out that Permanent Magic Fang doesn't help a monk get through material DR...an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 does. I'd also point out that the monk isn't investing any more then a TWF, when it comes down to it.

Also, no monk should bother getting Bracers of Armor until they've spent all their money on other AC raising tools. It costs 25,000 gp to surpass the benefit from a Mage Armor spell. 25k for +1 AC! That much money will boost any single source of AC you can get from +4 to +5 without a problem.

Note that the Qingong ability to Barkskin is effectively a cheap source of Nat AC early on. THe fighter could replicate the effect with wands or potions, and eventually gets a +5 Amulet and Barkskin becomes a non-issue. At low levels, it's quite nice.

I'd also like to point out that the fighter above wasn't feat-optimized for AC, either. Monks aren't the only ones who can take Crane Style or fight defensively.

===Aelryinth


Very true -- and a one handed fighter with crane style can be a really mean opponent with a really high AC (of all kinds). I think the take away is that getting a good AC isn't nearly as hard as it once was (and it hasn't be very hard ever).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Defensive fighting AC w Crane doesn't stack with a shield (requires free hand). That's the main reason Crane Style buffs defensive fighting so high.

Shields are cheap AC. Furthermore, you can slap Defender on them, and suddenly you're spinning +12 AC out of that thing on your right arm, with the option of using it as a +7 no penalty weapon on your off hand.

So, yeah, the Monk isn't going to really beat the fighter on AC unless he has access to sources that the fighter doesn't. He can, however, get to a nice AC sooner, although the investment is significant.

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

A buckler or light shield lets the hand free (though not so sure if it would be accepted for the second).


Aelryinth wrote:
Defensive fighting AC w Crane doesn't stack with a shield (requires free hand). That's the main reason Crane Style buffs defensive fighting so high.

They do too -- you simply have to have a free hand -- which you can do if the shield is your main weapon or you are a monk (monks of many styles of few reasons to no wear armor and shields in my opinion) thus able to use any part of your body as a weapon (hold the shield and just punch the heck out of the target).

Defender requires you to attack with the shield though as per the 'wield' crap that's still going on -- no penalty only if you have shield master, which is feat intensive.


What is up with all these people talking about amulet of mighty fists? That item is so garbage, real monks use +5 Brass Knuckles they want unarmed damage, or +5 Temple Sword if they want more power attack damage. Amulet is way over priced, that Item is sooo only core book only.

For 50,303 gold, all your unarmed attacks get +5 to hit and damage, and it gets around almost all damage reduction.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
sir_shajir wrote:

What is up with all these people talking about amulet of mighty fists? That item is so garbage, real monks use +5 Brass Knuckles they want unarmed damage, or +5 Temple Sword if they want more power attack damage. Amulet is way over priced, that Item is sooo only core book only.

For 50,303 gold, all your unarmed attacks get +5 to hit and damage, and it gets around almost all damage reduction.

Did you miss the errata to brass knuckles? Theyre really quite terrible.

Temple sword is good though.

Shadow Lodge

Silent Saturn wrote:
As for the monk's accuracy, don't forget to flank! Increased movement speed makes it easier for you to get around to the other side of the enemy than it is for the rogue or fighter, and the flanking bonus cancels out the flurry penalty.

...and this is why the Hobgoblin Monk is my slave. I get the most benefit from having a flank-servant.


Monks should add use wisdom to hit and deal damage I think that would fix the class up well. Perhaps I'm wrong though and that would make them too powerful.


Monks by themselves are pretty bad.

Monk archetypes, particularly after ultimate combat are really really good.


Lets throw out some numbers... Not trying to prove a point, just trying to actually look at some data.

We'll take a Human Monk. STR 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 12 / INT: 10 / WIS: 14 / CHA: 8

We'll take a Human Fighter with STR: 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 14 / INT: 10 / WIS: 12 / CHA: 8

Data:
Level 1: The Monk has 10 HP, 14 AC, Saves +3/+2/+2, DPR 7.5 using the Temple Sword two-handed and 11.2 on the Flurry. His Estimated Survival Time (EST, calculated from like CR's High Attack/Damage) is 3.57 attacks. He'll wield a Masterwork Temple Sword regardless of focus and SERIOUSLY consider a Masterwork Buckler and Masterwork Studded Leather Armor as soon as he can, for another +2 AC and increase his EST to 4.76.

The Fighter will have 13 HP, 18 AC, Saves +4/+2/+1, DPR 10.01 using a Masterwork Greatsword, and an Estimated Survival Time (EST, calculated from like CR's High Attack/Damage) of 9.28 attacks. The fighter will start with a Masterwork Greatsword and Masterwork Breastplate. We are assuming Weapon Focus for the Fighter.

With these numbers, the Monk had better have something else going on to help him! He'll have to fight like a Rogue. Indeed, early on he seems a bit like a psuedo-Rogue more than a fighter. He can take his punches, but he isn't the tar pit that a fighter is. At this level, the Monk will probably have to distinguish themselves with support (Enforcer, Tripping, Etc) and maybe a well-placed Stunning Fist. Not good odds.

Level 3: At this point it is, in my experience, a reasonable assumption to get Mage Armor cast on the Monk every day. However, the fighter is going to have a +1 Breastplate and a +1 Ring of Protection while the Monk is going to just have the +1 Ring of Protection and +1 Cloak of Resistance. Again, in my experience, most do not have Fullplate at this point, unless they are dwarves, because of the movement restrictions.

The Monk will have 22 HP, 19 AC, Saves +5/+6/+6, DPR 6.93 / 9.35 (8.17 / 12.65 when Power Attacking), EST 9.16 attacks. The Monk requires no items other than a Masterwork Temple Sword and Mage Armor. Also note that the Monk has Evasion at this point.

The Fighter will have 29 HP, 20 AC, Saves +5/+3/+2, DPR 10.01 (11.44 while Power Attacking), and EST 16.11 attacks. The Fighter will be using his Masterwork Greatsword and a +1 Breastplate.

Level 5: The Fighter will upgrade to a +1 Greatsword and then get a +2 Cloak of Resistance and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1. The Fighter is assumed to have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in his Greatsword. He'll also take The Monk will continue to get Mage Armor cast on him and will purchase a Belt of +2 STR, Headband of +2 WIS. The Monk will continue to use his Masterwork Temple Sword, only using his Unarmed Strike (Kicks) when he faces something with DR/Magic. Note that, at this point, he can also start casting Barkskin on himself via Quinggong Monk, which most will do. This'll give him another +2 AC.

The Monk will have 34 HP, 21 AC, Saves +6/+7/+8, DPR 6.96 / 11.5 Flurry (8.66 / 15.35 Power Attacking), and an EST of 3.7 Attacks.

The Fighter has 45 HP, 20 AC, Saves +8/+5/+4, DPR 13.09 (15.8 Power Attacking), and an EST of 4.5 attacks. Note that this is where a Dwarven defense-focused Fighter will start to have a bigger disparity. Fullplate and a shield would bring his AC to 24 and EST to 7.4, but it'd bring his damage well below the Monk's.

Level 7: The Fighter will trade in his armor for +2 Fullplate and get a +2 STR Belt. The Monk will upgrade his Ring of Protection to +2 and trade in his +2 STR Belt for a belt of +2 STR/CON. Other than that, he'll save for a Monk's Robe.

The Monk will have 53 HP, 22 AC, Saves +8/+8/+9, DPR 14.63 (18.76 Power Attacking) and have an EST of 3.21 Attacks. Can gain +3 AC from Barkskin (4.41 EST).

The Fighter will have 61 HP, 24 AC, Saves +9/+6/+5, DPR 24.75 (27.72 Power Attacking), EST 4.52 attacks.

Level 9: Level-up stats for both characters go into STR. The Fighter will pick up the Holy Grail that is the Dueling Gauntlets and sell off his Amulet of Natural Armor +1 to get a Belt of Physical Perfection +2. The Fighter will also be assumed to have Greater Weapon Focus and Improved Critical for his weapon. Meanwhile, the Monk will be picking up a Monk's Robe, upgrading his belt to a Belt of Physical Perfection +2 and upgrade his Cloak of Resistance to +2. Both the Fighter and the Monk will be considered to have Greater Magic Weapon cast on them. Additionally, the Monk will actually start to use his Unarmed Strike around here, carrying around Brass Knuckles of varying material to use as needed.

The Monk will have 67 HP, 25 AC, Saves +10/+11/+11, DPR 29.93, 29.93 with Power Attack, 39.38 spending Ki, 43.89 with both, and an EST of 2.79 attacks. The Monk can boost his AC by +4 NA to get an EST of 4.19

The Fighter will have 86 HP, 24 AC, Saves +11/+8/+6, DPR 48.96 (63 with Power Attack), and an EST of 3.31 attacks.

Level 11: The Fighter is going to upgrade his weapon to a +1 Flaming Frost weapon, his Ring of Protection to +3, his Cloak of Resistance to +4, and get his Amulet of Natural Armor +1. The Monk is going to purchase two Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stones (for Atk Rolls and Saves), trade in his Cloak of Resistance for a Minor Cloak of Displacement, and upgrade his Headband to +4 Wis, and purchase an Amulet of Mighty Fists [Flaming, Frost]. Both characters will get Greater Magic Weapon cast on them and the Monk will continue to get Mage Armor.

Monk will have 81 HP, 27 AC, Saves +10/+11/+12, DPR 56.7, 48.83 with Power Attack, 73.08 spending Ki, 64.58 with both. The Monk's EST is 3.38 Attacks, 5.06 with Barkskin.

The Fighter will have 104 HP, AC 26, Saves +15/+10/+8, DPR 78.12, EST is 3.2 attacks.


SoulGambit wrote:

Lets throw out some numbers... Not trying to prove a point, just trying to actually look at some data.

We'll take a Human Monk. STR 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 12 / INT: 10 / WIS: 14 / CHA: 8

We'll take a Human Fighter with STR: 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 14 / INT: 10 / WIS: 12 / CHA: 8

** spoiler omitted **...

You see, I don't particularly care for this set of numbers as all it proves is that fighters are better than monks at fighting. I would honestly hope that that's true of any full bab class versus a monk.

Why not work on the numbers for a class that is not a fighter, has a similar amount of saves and skills and is 3/4 bab? I would suggest either, inquisitor, alchemist, or magus. Or bard if that catches your fancy.

Andoran

Quote:
What is up with all these people talking about amulet of mighty fists? That item is so garbage, real monks use +5 Brass Knuckles they want unarmed damage, or +5 Temple Sword if they want more power attack damage

Leaving aside errata issues, why would a monk want to use a manufactured weapon when he's punching like a Titan while Enlarged in Monk's Robes from 15th onward?

"Did I say 22d10? ...I'm sorry, I meant 44d8 -- I forgot about that 50gp potion I drank last round!"

Quote:
Monks by themselves are pretty bad.
Any core class that can manage 200pts of damage off dice alone at 15th level with de rigor equipment and tactics is, by definition, not pretty bad.
Quote:
Monk archetypes, particularly after ultimate combat are really really good.

Aside from Sohei archers, I'm having a hard time seeing any that are more durable and destructive out-of-box than a core stunner who stomps things down into the lower mantle.

Like all archetype splats, many of 'em are sneakily-worded, too; you think you're the shizzits, but belatedly discover you've given up something that's bloody neigh indispensable to saving your hide in a pinch -- like Improved Evasion when somebody dumps an Empowered Maximized Fireball on your head after you'd just taken a x3 crit in melee, and you start rolling 1s on your saves.

Core monks, like core paladins, are very end-loaded power-wise, and most archetypes actually nerf them.


In light of my brilliant energy flub, I'll turn off fighting defensively and defending weapon. I'll swap out brilliant energy for Keen, Dueling (field guide version) (trip), guardian, and spell storing (usually an intensified shocking grasp).

This will result in my stats changing to the following:

Attack: 33/33/28/23
AC: 50
Damage: 1d2 + 29 + 6d6 (various)

Now that should actually make the comparison easier, keeping in mind that those are already including power attack whereas the monk's are not. None-the-less my point regarding usefulness outside of combat, even with my haphazardly thrown together list of prepared spells.


TarkXT wrote:
SoulGambit wrote:

Lets throw out some numbers... Not trying to prove a point, just trying to actually look at some data.

We'll take a Human Monk. STR 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 12 / INT: 10 / WIS: 14 / CHA: 8

We'll take a Human Fighter with STR: 18 / DEX: 14 / CON: 14 / INT: 10 / WIS: 12 / CHA: 8

** spoiler omitted **...

You see, I don't particularly care for this set of numbers as all it proves is that fighters are better than monks at fighting. I would honestly hope that that's true of any full bab class versus a monk.

Why not work on the numbers for a class that is not a fighter, has a similar amount of saves and skills and is 3/4 bab? I would suggest either, inquisitor, alchemist, or magus. Or bard if that catches your fancy.

I believe I've done that with the magus. Got more to-hit, more AC, more skills, spells to be useful, and with the rework I got better saves in a pinch. Sure in pure DPS, I'm lagging the first round, but thereafter I ought to be ahead.


Mike Schneider wrote:

Plain-vanilla human PFS monk built with 15,14,14,14,12,07, array, STR-based:

STR:14, DEX:14, CON:12, INT:14, WIS+17, CHA:07
Traits: Threatening Defender

01 [Dodge], Mobility, Combat Expertise

...buy a wand of Mage Armor with 2 prestige points; arcane ally casts it. (Having the Dangerously Curious traits permits us to do it ourselves.)

02 [Combat Reflexes]

...AC17, or 21 moving through threat; +4 for Mage Armor. Combat Expertise is on 100% of the time prior to BAB4 due to Threatening Defender alleviating the penalty.

03 Improved Trip

...buy RingPro; AC 18/22/26

04 [AC+1][Ki Pool], WIS>18

...buy headband; AC 21/25/29/33(ki)

So, with Mage Armor and dorking a point of Ki, a plain vanilla human monk is potentially already up in the 30s at 4th level with three common pieces of equipment and core traits and feats.

If I build a fighter that is hardly viable for offensive combat and get to cherrypick AND break WBL as well:

Fighter4
Str18, Dex14, Con14, Int14, Wis12, Cha7

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Shield Focus, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus + Spec in weapon of choice

Loot: Fullplate+1, Tower Shield+1, Ring of Prot+1, assuming Barkskin cast willy nilly by companion+3, MW weapon

AC: 35/39/42 (fighting defensively and moving)

This fighter just have like +7 to hit (assuming Threatening Defender trait) and does a mere 1d8+6 damage, which I consider kinda sad for a fighter4.

Not all that hard. Remove the most unreasonable source of AC and you are still leagues ahead.

@underling: When someone says monks easily have an advantage of 4+ over fighters, which is a fallacy, it becomes about being best. Simple truth is that fighters are better at fighting. Which should not come as a surprise to anyone.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Havent' read the whole thread, but, I've played a Monk and loved it.

I multiclassed Zen Archer with Empyreal Sorcerer. This reduces my main stat to Wisdom, my secondary to Dex, and my tertiary to Strength/Constitution. With two levels of sorcerer, I could self buff my AC by 4 and keep it up all day (with a +1 CL trait), and buff my bow for a couple of times a day. After that, I went pretty much straight bow boost. I could also use any wizard/sorcerer wand or scroll, or even staves. My AC at level 5 was usually 25, with a touch of 19 or 20 (can't remember which). I was routinely matching the falcatta wielding warforged fighter for damage (granted, part of that was me being able to flurry without closing, so I was either blasting away from the get go with a normal bow, or a gravity bow'd bow).


Mike Schneider wrote:


Like all archetype splats, many of 'em are sneakily-worded, too; you think you're the shizzits, but belatedly discover you've given up something that's bloody neigh indispensable to saving your hide in a pinch -- like Improved Evasion when somebody dumps an Empowered Maximized Fireball on your head after you'd just taken a x3 crit in melee, and you start rolling 1s on your saves.

Well by that point it's very likely you're dead anyway what with those massive d8 hitdice you're carrying about. I imagine after eating that large axe to the face the 63 damage will kill you just as dead as the 126. :)

Mike wrote:
Aside from Sohei archers, I'm having a hard time seeing any that are more destructive out-of-box than a core monk who just stuns and punches things down into the lower mantle.

Dubiousness about Sohei Archers wording aside (yes, yes, raw, raw, raw, don't care, doesn't fly at my table you flurry like zen archers and stay consistent) in terms of raw destruction I'd rather have a full bab class on my side. They do it harder, don't need mr. wizard to cast mage armor on them every morning, and tend to do things like shatter the heavens with their lance thrusts.

Usually when I'm thinking monk I'm thinking melee support. Someone who can get in around the bad guy and either occupy the enemy support with disruptive lockdown assaults, or step up into the flank and let loose into the back with the ability to escape when necessary. Many of the archetypes provide good ways of doing this in focused and usually superior ways. Others help shore up some savage weaknesses in the class in some way or another. Martial artists cut the crap and just be mean, flowing monks can be disruptive terrors, Tetori's can grapple things into oblivion, maneuver masters can trip a whole room full of people very very quickly.

Oh sure, I might miss evasion, or disease immunity at times, but then I've yet to see an archetype that killed my saves. I have seen archetypes cut the MAD and miscellany out of me and add stuff relevant to what I wanted to do.

I do find it interesting you bring up stunning fist and trip as one of the tactics you would regularly use as a monk. To me it seems counter intuitive as you're required to get combat expertise at some point in order to get greater trip (remember it's not on the list of monk bonus feats). That means having at least a 13 intelligence. So you have to sacrifice elsewhere? Strength? Dex? You can't sacrifice wisdom as you want the DC for your stunning fist to be as high as you can manage since fortitude is a popularly high save to have amongst critters.

And therein lies the problem with monks in general. There's lots of things you'd love to do with them but you can't have everything so what you end up with is already amongst the other classes in some form or another and usually in a better way. Fighters took the everything, kicked the monks teeth in, sold all the teeth to the barbarian to make a necklace out of, and gave it to the synthesist who wears the everything like a dapper top hat on top of his eldritch horror bodysuit. What they have makes them irritating to deal with but not particularly threatening in terms of sheer murderous potential. I embrace the archetypes because they often lead me into avenues of combat or support that don't rely on simple dpr and flawed all or nothing debuffing models.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kamelguru wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:

Plain-vanilla human PFS monk built with 15,14,14,14,12,07, array, STR-based:

STR:14, DEX:14, CON:12, INT:14, WIS+17, CHA:07
Traits: Threatening Defender
01 [Dodge], Mobility, Combat Expertise
...buy a wand of Mage Armor with 2 prestige points; arcane ally casts it. (Having the Dangerously Curious traits permits us to do it ourselves.)
02 [Combat Reflexes]
03 Improved Trip
...buy RingPro; AC 18/22/26
04 [AC+1][Ki Pool], WIS>18
...buy headband; AC 21/25/29/33(ki)

So, with Mage Armor and dorking a point of Ki, a plain vanilla human monk is potentially already up in the 30s at 4th level with three common pieces of equipment and core traits and feats.

If I build a fighter that is hardly viable for offensive combat and get to cherrypick AND break WBL as well:
6k on two items and 2 prestige-points on a 1st-level wand...everybody can do that easily before 5th in PFS.
Quote:

Fighter4 ... Str18, Dex14, Con14, Int14, Wis12, Cha7

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Shield Focus, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus + Spec in weapon of choice

Loot: Fullplate+1, Tower Shield+1, Ring of Prot+1, assuming Barkskin cast willy nilly by companion+3, MW weapon

Having someone in the party capable of casting Barkskin is an iffier proposition than for Mage Armor... (but I digress)
Quote:

AC: 35/39/42 (fighting defensively and moving)

This fighter just have like +7 to hit (assuming Threatening Defender trait) and does a mere 1d8+6 damage, which I consider kinda sad for a fighter4.

What's sad about it? -- Most things in PFS Tier 5-6 would need a 20 just to hit you, meaning you can easily make fights attrition battles, and frequently walk away without a scratch.

-- It's not "DPR sexy"; but it's a very smart way to not only fight, but manage consumable resources.

(Most common way of getting killed in PFS is being in over your head next to a multi-attack BBEM who can break your AC.)

Quote:
@underling: When someone says monks easily have an advantage of 4+ over fighters, which is a fallacy, it becomes about being best. Simple truth is that fighters are better at fighting. Which should not come as a surprise to anyone.

Fighters are better at collecting Combat feats and wearing heavy armor; if an encounter doesn't penalize their armor and dovetails to the feats they picked, then they're better.

E.g., not so good being the heavy-armor fighter in a low/mid-level game anytime there's water around with hungry things in it. Or crawling along the slippy ledge over a chasm. Or in one of those annoying city mods where you know scumbags are going to attack while you sleep in a "safe" bed (not wearing your full-plate, of course) in the middle of town. And my personal fav: the shindig at the hoity-toity Taldor opera house with peace-bound light "dress"-weapons and light-armor (under clothing) permitted only -- why you just know the ghouls are going to burst out of the floor at any moment....


Mike Schneider wrote:
...

Every Fighter has a sleeping shirt :P

And of course the +1 enchantment making it a +2 plate will be comfort.
Now you can stay in your full plate forever... yaaaaaaaaay.

Plus you can get a Folding Plate if you really want to stay safe. But here it also depends on whether your DM allows it to be enchantent beyond the initial +1. Then you could even make it your standard suit of armor.

So we are still at a VERY SITUATIONAL argument whether the monk can be good.

He can be good if you have a low Fort Save BBEG (and the monk is fairly high level plus went all the way to medusa's wrath) and if you somehow trick the players into abandoning their armour.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As usual, I would not use PFS to judge how well a class is built or not. PFS is extremely humanoid based, and the encounters are usually easy as it's often against 1 big monster. PFS level limit to 12 helps a lot.


Bomanz wrote:

My monk in PFS killed 3 mooks and captured 2 more with Combat Maneuvers, and then seriously damaged the BBEG while the knife rogue finished him off. We had no fighter/barb/ranger 4/4 bab guy, so it was up to me and the rogue.

We pwned.

Monks faster ground speed made sure I got to the baddies first, panther style allowed for ripostes when they did take AoO (and for those that are all "why are your bad guys dumb and attacking the nonthreat" let me just point out when the AP says they fight to the death, or if they are undead, or even if the GM doesn't metagame an enemy will attack a seemingly "open" target, such as one who is presenting himself as a target by moving through threatened squares. Once its shown I'll repeatedly hit back when that happens, and that my high AC makes me hard to hit an intelligent opponent will not attempt to take the AoO...maybe. But by then, I've shown myself to be a "threat".)and certain Combat Maneuvers made sure that the bad guys didnt move past me or run away.

I seriously think that the people who bad mouth monks havent played one.

My monk is fun to play, hes not a wimp, and he kills tons of stuff. He has the best AC in our game, he has more movement than anyone in our game, he has the best Saves in our game, he has more feats than anyone in our game, he has killed as many or more than the other characters at the table, and frankly has kept the party from TPK more than once.

Maybe I don't have as much AC as a fully optimized fighter or whatever, but I am the best at the table and I have fun playing him.

Win.

Monks can be quite vicious. But your feats have to work with your tactics, like any melee.


As stated earlier in the thread. Monks are purely pugilists. Hence when you compare them to an optimized barbarian or fighter, they do fall behind on the damage and attack bonuses. the monk is more a contemplative, meditative character who gets class abilities which make them immune to poisons, diseases etc. They also get beefs to base speed at a really quick pace. Flurry ability and other bonuses start coming in as well. I've read how horrible they are in 3.5 and haven't found this to be the case. Alot of players compare it purely from the damage per round perspective. Unless a pure AC build monk, their AC does tend to fall behind the full plate knight with tower shield. What I remember is certain encounters which happen when the party is resting. Knight and fighter have taken off their armor, party rogue on watch shouts that dangerous foes are about. The monk wakes up and has his full AC bonus. He's ready to go. As opposed to the fighter or knight which has to spend minutes getting back into their full plate. Monk grapplers have been pretty deadly in 3.5. Win the grapple and do their unarmed damage. Man its gonna hurt. Might not do the most damage per round but they shut down so much of what a powerful foe can do. Not forgetting they are the only class I've seen which gets all THREE good save progressions. The lass gives alot but so much of it s overlooked from a purely atk/dmg perspective.


If you want a skirmisher, a bow using monk with catch arrows and a nice ac can be hard to pin down and catch.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If you want a skirmisher, a bow using monk with catch arrows and a nice ac can be hard to pin down and catch.

Does this work well with the Zen Archer?


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alienfreak wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If you want a skirmisher, a bow using monk with catch arrows and a nice ac can be hard to pin down and catch.
Does this work well with the Zen Archer?

Zen Archer is a scary good skirmisher. And he's pretty much good regardless of where he is. He's got the Acrobatics to move through a crowded combat field without getting hit (usually), he can make bow attacks in melee without provoking, he still threatens even when using a bow (since he can kick with his unarmed attacks), he has a higher than normal movement (thanks to his monk speed boosts), he get's the equivalent of TWF on his bow (Flurry).

Honestly, the Zen Archer is one of the best ranged artillery platforms in the game, with or without catch arrows. He can sit back and rain arrows into you as you charge up to him, and then spit in your eye, dodge your charge, and unload another flurry into you at point blank range.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alienfreak wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If you want a skirmisher, a bow using monk with catch arrows and a nice ac can be hard to pin down and catch.
Does this work well with the Zen Archer?

Exactly what I was going to ask. Catching arrows (or catching BOTH manyshot arrows) and sending them back with full bonuses from archery class features is awesome.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Mike Schneider

I agree with a lot that you're saying, but you mentioned using stunning-fist in conjunction with Panther style to run amuck, draw AOOs, stun and then flurry the stunned foe next round.

This unfortunately does not work, as the stun ends just before the monk's next turn starts.


Alienfreak wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If you want a skirmisher, a bow using monk with catch arrows and a nice ac can be hard to pin down and catch.
Does this work well with the Zen Archer?

Zen archery, the feat, is my favourite feat of the month.


mdt wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
If you want a skirmisher, a bow using monk with catch arrows and a nice ac can be hard to pin down and catch.
Does this work well with the Zen Archer?

Zen Archer is a scary good skirmisher. And he's pretty much good regardless of where he is. He's got the Acrobatics to move through a crowded combat field without getting hit (usually), he can make bow attacks in melee without provoking, he still threatens even when using a bow (since he can kick with his unarmed attacks), he has a higher than normal movement (thanks to his monk speed boosts), he get's the equivalent of TWF on his bow (Flurry).

Honestly, the Zen Archer is one of the best ranged artillery platforms in the game, with or without catch arrows. He can sit back and rain arrows into you as you charge up to him, and then spit in your eye, dodge your charge, and unload another flurry into you at point blank range.

Sadly we needed a cleric in the new campaign I am player in... otherwise I would have experienced it myself :(

Silver Crusade

No party should have to "need" a cleric. Just build a cleric that doesn't do the healbot's work... like with the alternate channelings.

Andoran

LoreKeeper wrote:

@Mike Schneider

I agree with a lot that you're saying, but you mentioned using stunning-fist in conjunction with Panther style to run amuck, draw AOOs, stun and then flurry the stunned foe next round.

This unfortunately does not work, as the stun ends just before the monk's next turn starts.

It ends right before you flurry him, meaning he is not stunned but he also did not have a turn to move before you flurry.

Monk two step is move up and stun, they lose a turn, then flurry.


Exactly, usually starting with another use of stunning fist (which still does damage even if they save). And if the target fails against that second stunning fist, it makes things a lot easier for the monk on his full-attack flurry.

And don't forget, at increasing levels the monk doesn't have to stun for 1 round. Fatigued at 4th (with no duration listed, so he's fatigued until the condition is removed!), sickened for 1 minute at 8th, staggered for 1d6+1 rounds at 12th, blinded or deafened (permanently!) at 16th, or paraylyzed for 1d6+1 rounds at 20th.

All of which are pretty hefty conditions to be stuck with when you have a monk (never mind the rest of the party!) standing right there ready to lay down several rounds worth of flurry.

Master Arminas


I like to play classes that are flavorful and don't fall behind mechanically. The two monks I would consider playing are uc styles and zen archer.


Maxximilius wrote:
No party should have to "need" a cleric. Just build a cleric that doesn't do the healbot's work... like with the alternate channelings.

I am an Evangelist Archer with an Animal Companion.

But that was the best thing I could take considering that noone in the group except me has access to healing magic...


Alienfreak wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:
No party should have to "need" a cleric. Just build a cleric that doesn't do the healbot's work... like with the alternate channelings.

I am an Evangelist Archer with an Animal Companion.

But that was the best thing I could take considering that noone in the group except me has access to healing magic...

No rangers, pallies, witches, bards, druids, inquisitors, oracles, OR anyone with decent UMD? Yikes.

As a topic related note, monks totally love UMD. There's a lot of benefit they can get from it.


KrispyXIV wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:
No party should have to "need" a cleric. Just build a cleric that doesn't do the healbot's work... like with the alternate channelings.

I am an Evangelist Archer with an Animal Companion.

But that was the best thing I could take considering that noone in the group except me has access to healing magic...

No rangers, pallies, witches, bards, druids, inquisitors, oracles, OR anyone with decent UMD? Yikes.

As a topic related note, monks totally love UMD. There's a lot of benefit they can get from it.

We have a Sorcerer but that one thinks UMD is stupid ;).

@ Monk:

Yes I say the same. Also many other melee classes like a Two Handed Weapon Fighter profit highly from it. Trait for Class Skill and probably a Skill Focus if you dumped Cha.
For those a lvl 1 spell (Shield) means +4 AC for solid 10 minutes.
And if you have the time to buff you can also get a +10ft speed (if you don't have the boots)


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Shield has a duration of 1 minute per level.

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