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Day Job - Sleight of Hand.


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

**

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

OK perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick, buuuutttt...

I question whether it or not a player should be able to use his or her Sleight of Hand skill as a performance artist to earn day job roles.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play Version 4.0—8/4/11 wrote:

Some are trained artisans, professionals, or performers and earn
extra gold on the side, between missions. During these
times, you can attempt a Craft, Perform, or Profession
skill check to see how much extra money you earn

Certain Vanities (see the Pathfinder Society Field
Guide) allow you to further modify your Day Job rolls, or
even let you use skill ranks from other, more specialized
skills like Heal or Sleight of Hand
.

Yet the skill descriptor says:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/sleight-of-hand wrote:


You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

So why do Sleight of Handers need to worry about Vanities when they are just being performance artists like Jugglers or wannabe Criss Angel types?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Sleight of Hand is still a separate skill and the Guide specifically states that only Craft, Perform, or Profession are applicable (without Vanities). Use of the Sleight of Hand skill to perform performance-like tasks, does not mean it IS a Perform check.

Saying something is similar or acts like something else, is not the same as saying the two things are the same.

**

That seems at odds with the remainder of the description where they talk about the act it constitutes.

You are performing as a Juggler or whatnot, the same as other performers.

The 'vanity' is to join a thieves guild and rob people, what if you just want to be a juggler or circus guy and not a lowly street criminal?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Shifty wrote:
what if you just want to be a juggler or circus guy and not a lowly street criminal?

Take a rank in Perform :-)

**

Seems like having to pay twice for the same skill, even though the skill says you can use it a certain way.

I just reckon someone hated Rogues, or Criss Angel, or both...

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Sleight of Hand is not by definition a perform skill. It's the HIDDEN move, so by itself, it's not a performance. It's an accessory to perform but by itself it doesn't make you a street performer. It's main function after all is in activities like pickpocketing where you definitely DON"T want that hand to be noticed.

Silver Crusade **

LazarX wrote:
Sleight of Hand is not by definition a perform skill. It's the HIDDEN move, so by itself, it's not a performance. It's an accessory to perform but by itself it doesn't make you a street performer. It's main function after all is in activities like pickpocketing where you definitely DON"T want that hand to be noticed.

I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that the Core Rulebook description of sleight of hand disagrees with you, which is Shifty's point:

Quote:
You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

Taldor *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Settled law. I agree with you, but this was argued and decided by the powers that be years ago. At least with the Vanity we can now get access to Slight of Hands for spare change at all.

Also, I think it has less to do with Slight of Hand as a form of Perform and (what I use it for) ... Slight of Hand as pickpocketing. I assume my Rogue earns his Day Job by picking up small unattended items, rifling through pockets, etc.

Finally, even thought the Corebook calls out Slight of Hand = Perform, it does open up a slipper slope in PFS. Can I do enough Acrobatics tricks to earn money? Maybe I can work as an Appraiser? A Linguistics translator? They wanted to reward folks who put a few ranks into role playing/character building skills than many people ignore - Craft/Perform/Profession.

**

However, Sleight of Hand is specifically called out as a skill with a 'Performance' element, and whilst I agree with you about Acrobatics etc, for whatever reason, Sleight has had this exception in play all along.

I'd agree with you that Acrobatics would also be a good one for an entertainer. Apparently the good folks at Cirque DuSoleil would agree too - although apparently they wouldn't earn a copper in Pathfinder.

If we accept 'Street Performer' as a Perform skill, where the person does acrobatics, we end up with this oddball scenario where a persons ability to do backflips and the like is determined by their Charisma.

I also don't like the notion in play that one has to buy a vanity (not a cheap proposition) to be able to be use Sleight of Hand as a street magician/juggler is to join a thieves guild and rob people by becoming a pickpocket.

Thats not the best roleplaying :(

Andoran *****

The performers in Cirque DuSoleil arent making Acrobatics checks though, they are making Performance checks.

Sure, you could call it acrobatics, but Acrobatics is a generic term for performing an acrobatic maneuver, implying generic use of finesse over brute strength.

Yes, that is what they are doing, but they dont go out onto the stage an adlib their show. Its been Performed dozens or maybe even hundreds of times in practice before they ever go in front of an audience. Hence, it would be counted as Perform roll and not an Acrobatics roll.

Another difference is how they do it. Acrobatics may be the moving, stretching, grabbing etc all at the right time, but they do that and stylize it a bit, too. They smile, do the 'TADA!' arm stretch and everything else, which is part of the performance.

Silver Crusade **

1 person marked this as a favorite.

From a rules perspective, I agree with Shifty on this one. Pathfinder rules seem to allow it, but Pathfinder Society makes an exception to disallow it, and I agree with Shifty on not liking the exception.

But to play devil's advocate, let me offer a real world counter example, based on my own life experience.

I'm a juggler. On a good day, I can juggle 7 balls. Even on an average day, I can keep 5 balls in the air for 30 seconds or more, and do one trick with 5 balls besides just keeping them going. With 3 or 4 balls, I can do too many tricks to count.

But I'm not a natural performer. I actually had a street performing license in a major city at one point in my life, and I've performed at Renaissance Faires in the past. I tend to walk around juggling in the background, but I'm just not very good at interacting with the crowd and drawing them into my act. When I'm part of a show, I can follow a script fairly well, and as mentioned above, I have good technical juggling skills. But I'm just not much of a natural entertainer when street performing.

So I'd say that making money performing as a juggler comes down to two aspects: juggling ability (dexterity based) and showmanship (charisma based). And frankly, someone who can juggle 3 balls with good showmanship would probably make more money than me as a street performer.

And now to completely derail the discussion: How come Pathfinder doesn't have Perform (Juggle) as a skill? I'd love to do that one as a bard, and pull out juggling balls to surprise everyone at the table by RPing it. :p I wonder what that would count for on versatile performance. I'm thinking sleight of hand and acrobatics. What do you think?

**

So if the guys at Cirque are just making 'Perform' checks, then next time we need to get the party Rogue up and over a wall he can forgo an Acrobatic jump and instead 'Perform' his way up? He could have a 6 Dex but if he's madly Charismatic he can get up that wall no problem?

Fromper raises what I find troubling about 'Perform', that just because you can Juggle doesn't make you entertaining, because being entertaining doesn't mean you can Juggle.

Pathfinder does have Perform (Juggle), it's clearly in the body of the text under the heading Sleight of Hand.

But for some badwrongfun reason, you need to pay several Prestige Points (work out what the equivalent Gp value of all those are! - to make a couple of gold? You'd not make your money back) AND worse, you have to become a criminal too.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

(sigh)

Shifty, the Acrobatics skill is a very useful talent to have in Pathfinder Society. It lets you move without being hit, and jump over lava, and ... all sorts of agile things.

Craft (cute straw hats) is not such a very useful skill to have. I can think of one, maybe two, situations where the swift and competent manufacture of cute straw hats would be a benefit to the party. Same with most Profession skills.

The Day Job subroutine in Pathfinder Society is designed to reward those players who decided to put a couple ranks in some strange skill. It's not designed to reward people who max out Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand or Diplomacy or Linguistics. Those characters are already being rewarded, through the utility the give to the character in the actual adventure.

Silver Crusade **

Chris Mortika wrote:


The Day Job subroutine in Pathfinder Society is designed to reward those players who decided to put a couple ranks in some strange skill. It's not designed to reward people who max out Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand or Diplomacy or Linguistics. Those characters are already being rewarded, through the utility the give to the character in the actual adventure.

Except for bards, who get a mechanical advantage from training perform, and can also use it for their day job roll.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Agreed.

**

So in summary there - as long as your skill is not, you know, usefull in any way shape or form you can make money off it, but the minute it has any sort of utility then you are out of luck.

Unless you are a Bard.

And despite the RAW clearly saying that Sleight can be used in that way.

Shadow Lodge

Raw? Hardly. The Raw says, by your quote above, that you can use Sleight of Hand to 'entertain as though using the Perform skill'. Where in the RAW does it say you can use Sleight of Hand to 'make a Day Job roll as though having ranks in the Perform skill'.

Being able to make a skill check doesn't, by RAW, qualify you for a Day Job roll. I agree with you there is something wrong with all this, but trying to quote RAW will get you nowhere.

**

Then please explain the line:

You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

It doesn't say you can just 'make a check', it says use it as though you were using the Perform skill.

So then we go to the Perform skill to see what that means, and look theres the DC table for the perform skill:

Perform Skill DCs
Perform DC Performance
10 Routine performance. Trying to earn money by playing in public is akin to begging. You can earn 1d10 cp/day.
15 Enjoyable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d10 sp/day.
20 Great performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d10 sp/day. In time, you may be invited to join a professional troupe and may develop a regional reputation.
25 Memorable performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 1d6 gp/day. In time, you may come to the attention of noble patrons and develop a national reputation.
30 Extraordinary performance. In a prosperous city, you can earn 3d6 gp/day. In time, you may draw attention from distant patrons, or even from extraplanar beings.

So yeah apparently you can make money, as you are Performing an act encompassing elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like, as opposed to the other possible acts you might Perform such as:

Act (comedy, drama, pantomime)
Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, trumpet)
Sing (ballad, chant, melody)

So it is RAW, just for some reason the PFS guys decided to go against the RAW - possibly because they felt the only legit application of Sleight of and was to be a dirty pickpocketer.

The ROLEPLAYING of being a 'mundane' Street Magician and Juggler is apparently too Uber or something.

Silver Crusade **

I'm with Shifty on this one.

Qadira ***

First of all, I've got no irons in this fire, but I was wondering something.
Can a Bard use Sleight of Hand for a Perfrom check? say to Inspire Cmpetence or Inspire Courage?

Silver Crusade **

nosig wrote:

First of all, I've got no irons in this fire, but I was wondering something.

Can a Bard use Sleight of Hand for a Perfrom check? say to Inspire Cmpetence or Inspire Courage?
RAW:
Quote:
You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.
Quote:
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.

Inspire Competence and Inspire Courage don't require rolls. Of the three bard class abilities I can think of that do use perform rolls, countersong requires a musical performance, so that leaves just distraction and versatile performance. Both of those list specific types of performances that they can be used with.

So even perform (juggling) or any other type of performance not specifically listed in the rules, while they could be trained and used for day job rolls, can't be used for any bard skills that require rolls.

Qadira ****

While you can make the case for sleight of hand acting like a perform, the Core does not talk about using skills as Day Job rolls. It says how you can make money off of certain checks and what the DCs are, but that mechanic is vastly different. A one time performance does not equate when compared to the downtime between scenarios in regards to PFS. Since the Core contains not a single mention of "day job," this falls under the jurisdiction of the campaign. The "house rules" have to be PFS specific because there are no rules about it in the Core about how to handle this mechanic.

Since everything needs to be standardized for an organized campaign, there are rules in place to make it as fair of a system it can be for everyone. This means things like sleight of hand are not eligible for day job rolls unless you spend PP to get a vanity. I do not see this as a topic that will be discussed much further than this thread, and it's overall effect on the organized campaign is very minimal.

/Just my $0.02

Grand Lodge

Having worked as a stage magician I can tell you there is a big difference between being able to say do scarnes' drunken poker shuffle, and performing it as a trick for entertainment. One requires you to be able to capture your audience and keep them involved and entertained, the other just has you do something sneaky and not get caught. if your doing slight of hand right, no one is entertained because no one knows you did anything, Hence you have to also ham it up a bit if your doing it for the pleasure of your audience.

**

Joseph Caubo wrote:
Since everything needs to be standardized for an organized campaign, there are rules in place to make it as fair of a system it can be for everyone. This means things like sleight of hand are not eligible for day job rolls unless you spend PP to get a vanity. I do not see this as a topic that will be discussed much further than this thread, and it's overall effect on the organized campaign is very minimal.

I take all that on board.

Core says you can make money off the Perform Skill, and provides DC's and the like to determine how much money you can make per day. There's no mention of 'making a living' from perform, only DC's for 'one off performances'.

The Perform skill is thus used for Day Job checks in PFS.

No conflict there.

Sleight of Hand says you can use it as though you were using the Perform skill, and as such you can roll against the Perform DC table.

Mysteriously, and for no reason that can be explained, this type of Performance is somehow treated differently in PFS than it is in RAW.

If the overall effect is minimal, why go to the trouble of imlpementing a Vanity for it? And why discriminate against the skill in the first place.

If you want to be a Juggler/Magician, the only skill allowable is Sleight of Hand.

Yet to make any money you have to abandon your 'act' and become a criminal and low-rent pickpocket.

Thats really cheezy, and not in the interests of good roleplay. I don't see how this makes things fair for everyone when it's clearly removing utility for a skill, that has to affect a lot of people who choose to play things like Rogues/Bards etc.

The Day Job mechanic keeps being described as something to 'reward the roleplay concept' yete here we are with a clear cut case of misjudgment. Perhaps the person who wrote the mechanic wasn;t across the RAW for SoH and thought it only related to stealing things.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

I hate to sound snarky, but look, you're wasting your time. Mike (and his predecessors) have remained fairly consistent on the question of day jobs. The intend is to encourage/reward (albeit minor) players who spend skill points on craft/profession/perform. Ordinarily, those skills are largely ignored in favor of more "useful" skills. Keep in mind the nature of OP.

Sleight of Hand might be another way to "perform," but as was stated above, there are a lot of skills that can thematically simulate the ability to earn a living by employing them.

In my experience, the Day Job has functioned quite nicely over the past three+ years. In fact, most of the players at my tables have been excited at the opportunity to roll just one more time and "win" something. Sure it is a meager amount, but its not about the quantity of reward, its about the role-playing that is generated as players build character descriptions and backgrounds around their Day Job. It encourages a much more immersive game.

Sure some players may have bought ranks in those skills anyway, but it has encouraged a lot more to do the same.

And I do not think that spending a few Prestige Points is too much to ask to gain access to an additional option for the Day Job that, until very recently, did not even exist at all.

And if you don't like the idea that you are pickpocketing, then don't use it. Just say your character is doing exactly what is described from the skill.

Alternately, just select Perform(acting or comedy). Penn & Teller use comedy, magic, etc to ploy their "day job." I'm sure you could use that as inspiration for IC. Juggling can easily be enhanced with either drama (acting) or fun (comedy). There are infinite possibilities within the rules as they exist right now.

The bottom line, this is being made a much bigger issue that it needs to be. You don't need a game mechanic to be creative.

**

Sure one could take 'Perform:Comedy' or something, however what this is all boiling down to is if you want to gain money on the side, then you must pay a Skill Tax in order to do so.

In order to use Sleight of Hand in it's Perform aspect, however, one must spend 4PP to join a Thieves guild, which from a roleplay persepctive seems odd. When one calculates the GP value of the 4PP it also suggests that it makes poor economical sense for a street level performer to do, as to earn the equivalent gold back would take a pretty long time.

If I can't use the Skill to make 'Day job checks', then can I use it in game to make money and keep it during session play? The answer there is pretty much no, and neither can the other Professionals and Entertainers, because that is handled by their 'Day Job' rolls. That seems to be a pretty obvious double standard.

I think this is pretty unfair.

As you say, there are a lot of other skills that thematically could be used to 'perform', however the difference is that SoH is specifically called out as such in RAW. The others aren't.

Now I get that that a lot of players have been happy to make one more roll and I wish them all the best, what I ask is how much their happiness would be diminished by someone equally being able to use the skill they bought and paid for in the same manner, especially as it expressly treats that skill as a Performance skill in RAW.

Who is going to lose out here?

I can't understand the ruling, and the answers as to the 'why' seem to remain pretty esoteric.

Sure it might be a waste of time, but hey, so was the Heirloom Weapon debate :p

Things change when people ask why a rule is set a certain way.

What I'm asking is why can't I use a skill in the way the rulebook says, and why would a Thieves Guild be the appropriate channel (assuming I did want to spend the Vanity points as a tax) for what I want to be able to do?

I do appreciate the answers by the way, so please don't take it that I am being arbitrarily argumentative.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Props the windmill back up

Don't mind me, continue your tilting.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

It's a balance thing. Sleight of hand is often a very useful skill in PFS scenarios; because it is often needed for faction missions, it's arguably more useful in the Pathfinder Society campaign than it is in normal play. Conversely, the skills usable for day job rolls are not often useful in the scenarios themselves; in fact, they are generally less useful in organised play than they are in a normal campaign, due to the restrictions on activities during downtime.

If I took craft (basketweaving) for role-playing purposes, secure in the knowledge that I at least got a few gp back to make it somewhat worthwhile, I'd be a little ticked off if the guy who'd been drawing hidden weapons all session and slipping documents to his faction contact with his maxed out sleight of hand skill, also got to use it for his day job roll (without the benefit being offset against the PP cost of a vanity).

**

Do you feel the same way when the bard uses his 'Perform' skill to make cash?

By the way, that PP cost is 4PP - what is that in GP?

I just find it odd to suggest that if I put one single point into Profession:Basketweaving or Perform:Dance for the sole purpose of making money off day job rolls between scenarios (yay, free cash!) and thats 'good roleplaying', yet if I draw any other benefit from a skill then its badwrongfun, unless I am a Bard, in which case it's totally Kosher.

Qadira ***

wow - now I know how some people feel when I get passionate about T10 rulings. Shifty, I feel for you even if I think you are missguided. Keep your cool, and realize that most of us are trying to see it from your side too, even when we don't agree.

OK - my 2cp - it doesn't matter much to me. I have a character that IS a Street Performer, that's her class (type of Bard). She has an OK Slight of Hand - so that I can do minor magic tricks IC. Make a coin disapper, that sort of thing. I rely on another skill to do my Day Job (which one often changes, depending on whim), cause I know that I'm not allowed to use SoH. I have Perform Percussion and Perform Dance, Craft Courtesan and Profession Courtesan (yeah,yeah - I heard the one about makeing little Courtesans - any more I just say "well, someone has to train them!"). Would my Slight of Hand be better for my Day Job? Does it matter? not to me. If you are real stressed about it, just drop a point into Perform (insert what you think fits), buy a Masterwork Tool and use that.

I have a wizard character who can't craft. WOW! that's HUGE! but when I started this campaign I knew the rules on Crafting and excepted them. When they loosened enough to allow an Alchemist to Craft - I built an Alchemist. If the rules are laid out in black and white at the start, I except them in order to play. I know players who have trouble with the "No Evil" rules. This sounds like that.

Is the problem that you have to spend the 4 PP to join a Thieves Guild? Heck, just call it the Street Performers Union #247 - and figure it is for your license. I RP buying a Prostitution License in each major city my Bard goes to (pay a GP fee and have the Judge note it on the AR).

A Day Job roll nets your PC an average of 50 gp. that amounts to an average of 150 per level. (Double if you are a Street Performer) Is that worth the skill point? that would be a player opinion. In my case if the Day Job roll netted my PC zero GP I would get as much RP mileage out of it - just to be able to tell the other female PCs that "I could give you a few pointers - if your interested in the Courtesan training class...".

Qadira ***

Shifty wrote:

Do you feel the same way when the bard uses his 'Perform' skill to make cash?

By the way, that PP cost is 4PP - what is that in GP?

I just find it odd to suggest that if I put one single point into Profession:Basketweaving or Perform:Dance for the sole purpose of making money off day job rolls between scenarios (yay, free cash!) and thats 'good roleplaying', yet if I draw any other benefit from a skill then its badwrongfun, unless I am a Bard, in which case it's totally Kosher.

I've got a bard - a Street Performer. I've got good Perform skills (2 different ones, Dance and Percussion). They have NEVER come up in play at the table - in fact, my Class bonus to SoH for being a Street Performer DID come up in play, so I guess the point I put into Slight of Hand came in handy, but the 8 points I have in Performs and the 2 in Profession & Craft are wasted... except they do great for RP/Day Job.

but you know, stick to your guns, keep calm, present your case thoughtfully and in time maybe the rules will change. After all, Gnomes get to add thier bonus after all - and with the Vanities other persons get to use skills like Heal or SoH for Day job rolls.

Silver Crusade **

While I agree academically with Shifty, my "Is this really worth the time and energy to argue about?" sense is tingling. Shifty has made his point, but the rules are the rules, and they aren't going anywhere. Time to get over it and move on.

Qadira ***

Depending on how you calculate it 4 PP is worth 0 gp, 600 gp, or 3000 gp.
If it means you get an average roll of 25 (say you have a 14 or 15 in SoH, and never get better) then you average 50gp an adventure - so....

0 gp = 0 ARs, instant profit
600 gp = 12 ARs, 3 levels then everything extra is profit.
3000 gp = 60 ARs, 20 levels (not going ever get into profit).

But if you are doing Day Job rolls for the money - you are wasting Skill Points and/or PP.

Qadira ***

Fromper wrote:

While I agree academically with Shifty, my "Is this really worth the time and energy to argue about?" sense is tingling. Shifty has made his point, but the rules are the rules, and they aren't going anywhere. Time to get over it and move on.

Fromper - it's important to him. I'll spend a few posts to help him thru this, who knows maybe he'll get the rule changed, if that's what he wants (I don't think so either, but heck - I don't have any control over that). Mean time it just costs me some posts, some time, and maybe he just needs someone to bounce ideas off of. I can be here for a fellow gamer. If you need to move on, feel free.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Prestige Points are roughly worth 350gp+/-. There isn't a direct gp to prestige conversion rate, at least not for PFSOP.

Shifty wrote:
I just find it odd to suggest that if I put one single point into...

I wouldn't recommend that because it feels mechanical. If you want to be a street performer, then select a skill that works for you. If that is Perform, great. Spend a point at each level to represent your increasing proficiency. If that means buying the vanity so you can use Sleight of Hand, super, do that. But either way, work it into your character's persona. If you mechanically drop a single point into craft/perform/profession just to get a roll at the conclusion of a scenario, IMO, that's just lame.

Andoran ***** Venture-Captain, Alabama—Birmingham aka Grolloc

It is definitely a OP vs. open play game balance issue. In a home-game, those skills can be tailored to plots and adventures can be centered around the quest for components for the epic crafted basket of fate. In OP, it's just not going to happen. While perform may have a heroic use for a single class, Profession and craft are fluff skills that only see use in RP and get rewarded with a low, slow payoff.

If you'd like to get in on that action, spend the PP. Day jobs are a privilege, not a right. If I had to see a change I'd rather Perform get removed from the Day job list rather than more skills added.

**

Thanks Nosig

OK well by way of disclosure I made a Rogue for PFS play, who is a Thug.

He is a 'rent-a-tough', but is also charismatic and with the Charming trait. I went down the path of picking Sleight of Hand so that in his downtime he could be an entertainer type - Juggling, minor 'magic' etc because at the end of the day the guy might be a rogue, but the scurrilous kind; he's not a 'thief'.

He's LN, and quite principled in a 'Dog the Bounty Hunter' kind of way, and isn't interested in larceny.

Now I find that despite the text in the CRB saying SoH can be used as a Perform skill, I later find out in the day job rules that this has been removed and the only way he can have it as a 'day job' is to take the vanity to do so (4pp! at 1st level he hasn't got that, so can't even take it if he wanted... are all street performers experienced adventurers or something?) and worse, he needs to resort to thievery to make his cash.

I get it that joining the guild gives him bonuses to SoH and all, but thats not what he's looking for.

To consider that those said same 4pp need to be spent at the beginning level when I need both cash AND pp is a bit rough, especially in light of the 'cash value' those pp represent.

I guess I could drop a point into Profession:Basketweaver and pretend he was really doing street tricks and not really making baskets, but thats a bit hollow, or as Bob would rightly suggest "a bit lame".

Anyhow, point has been made.

I am not really satisfied with the deviation away from RAW, nor the extravagantly expensive solution, but there you have it.

Silver Crusade **

nosig wrote:
Fromper wrote:

While I agree academically with Shifty, my "Is this really worth the time and energy to argue about?" sense is tingling. Shifty has made his point, but the rules are the rules, and they aren't going anywhere. Time to get over it and move on.

Fromper - it's important to him. I'll spend a few posts to help him thru this, who knows maybe he'll get the rule changed, if that's what he wants (I don't think so either, but heck - I don't have any control over that). Mean time it just costs me some posts, some time, and maybe he just needs someone to bounce ideas off of. I can be here for a fellow gamer. If you need to move on, feel free.

I added my two coppers worth earlier in the thread. I even agreed with him. But this thread seems to be getting needlessly long, so I'm moving on.

**

Its ok the thread ended a post before yours :P


Bob Jonquet wrote:


I wouldn't recommend that because it feels mechanical. If you want to be a street performer, then select a skill that works for you. If that is Perform, great. Spend a point at each level to represent your increasing proficiency. If that means buying the vanity so you can use Sleight of Hand, super, do that. But either way, work it into your character's persona. If you mechanically drop a single point into craft/perform/profession just to get a roll at the conclusion of a scenario, IMO, that's just lame.

But if you mechanically drop a point each level into it then it's gravy?

I'm sorry if you are going to argue against mechanics, listing out mechanics is not a good way to do so!

More likely, increase it either when you've rolled well that level (to represent your growing ability) or when you've rolled poorly that level ('gotta go back to school'), or most likely however it suits your character.

The point as I see it is that PFS is drawing a line where the core rules don't. In general that's a bad thing, but there's a number of them about. Mike's been good about looking over things, so perhaps it will change.

Personally I'd suggest to Mike that each quarter he goes over each PFS house rule and see if it still warrants inclusion. It's the only way to avoid bloat in the campaign specific rules. It's far too easy to defend something because 'it's always been that way' when really the criteria should be 'it's needed' and the later requires periodic review.

-James

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

james maissen wrote:
But if you mechanically drop a point each level into it then it's gravy?

Are you intentionally trying to be obtuse?

My point was that the game mechanics, whether that be taking a vanity and ranks in Sleight of Hand, or perform, etc. should follow the character concept. I really don't care which way you go, but to drop a point in just to get a Day Job roll is lame. This is a role-playing game after all.

And I'm not even saying that you need to spend more than one point, just have some legitimate concept as to what your character's day job is and how that is reflected by the numbers on the sheet. If you are really good at something, you should have a lot of points spent on it. If you want your character to less efficient at his trade, then spend fewer. I honestly don't care.

The issue is simply that Sleight of Hand was not included in the campaign specific rules covering Day Jobs, so if you don't want to pay the Prestige "tax" to use it, find another way to simulate it using the skills that are available. With a little creativity, there are numerous skills that can represent the thematics of your day job.

Shadow Lodge

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I really don't care which way you go, but to drop a point in just to get a Day Job roll is lame. This is a role-playing game after all.

... Unless that rank represents what the character tried to do for a career before joining the Pathfinders. I don't see it as lame. I see it as lame that people would have character that just sit around the Lodge doing nothing between missions. Have you no life? A Day Job skill can be an important for RP even if you just put a point in and say "That's what he/she does between scenario, now where's my roll."

Andoran *****

Each characters length of time between scenarios is different though. Perhaps the characters without day jobs sign up for adventures as soon as they can manage, one after another, giving them very little down time? Maybe they just want to relax for months or years at a time, considering theyve just earned (even at 1-2 subtier) what your average person will make in several years (maybe even a decade) in a short time.

Qadira ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Good day, Shifty. I'm sympathetic to your situation, I guess, but I don't understand your point.

Shifty wrote:
Sure one could take 'Perform:Comedy' or something, however what this is all boiling down to is if you want to gain money on the side, then you must pay a Skill Tax in order to do so.

You see, from my perspective, it's not "a skill tax". It's paying for what you get.

Player: I want to track people. It's part of my character's background as a sorcerer.
GM: That requires a good roll in Survival.
Player: It's unfair that I have to pay a skill tax to track.

Substitute "make money on the side" for "track people", and "Craft, Profession, or Perform" in place of "Survival."

Shifty wrote:
In order to use Sleight of Hand in its Perform aspect, however, one must spend 4PP to join a Thieves guild, which from a roleplay persepctive seems odd. When one calculates the GP value of the 4PP it also suggests that it makes poor economical sense for a street level performer to do, as to earn the equivalent gold back would take a pretty long time.

You're having trouble coming up with a roleplaying justification as to why you have to get your faction to lean on the Thieves' Guild to let you have some uncontested street space to ply your 3-card monte routines for cash?

You say that doing so is a long-term investment, if you value your sway with your faction. That's probably right. It might not be an easy decision to make. That's okay with me.

Shifty wrote:
If I can't use the Skill to make 'Day job checks', then can I use it in game to make money and keep it during session play? The answer there is pretty much no, and neither can the other Professionals and Entertainers, because that is handled by their 'Day Job' rolls. That seems to be a pretty obvious double standard.

During the mission, you should be working on the mission. If your PC is more interested in street performing than he is in exploring, cooperating and reporting, then I'm wondering if you've designed a character who's cut out for being a Pathfinder.

Nobody is making money on the side during play. The double standard, I guess, is between every single PC in the campaign, and the NPCs who go about crafting arrows, running small businesses, and singing in taverns. Or is there another double standard you're talking about?

Shifty wrote:
Do you feel the same way when the bard uses his 'Perform' skill to make cash?

Josh Frost wrote the Day Job rules during Season 0, when the campaign used the 3.5 ruleset and bards didn't have many advantages over other characters when it came to using the Perform skill. In the final Pathfinder ruleset, that's changed.

It is an exploitable loophole, you bet. And I've seen bards in PFS who have a +39 to their Perform skill, so they automatically max out in Day Job gold, as well as perform useful functions in the party with that skill.

But, you know, if the upshot of that unintended loophole is that a society dedicated to unearthing Golarion's history and recording it attracts more than its share of bards, skalds, poets, historians, ollaves, and story-tellers, I'm okay with that.

Peace to you this merriest of seasons.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Nickademus42 wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I really don't care which way you go, but to drop a point in just to get a Day Job roll is lame. This is a role-playing game after all.
... Unless that rank represents what the character tried to do for a career before joining the Pathfinders. I don't see it as lame. I see it as lame that people would have character that just sit around the Lodge doing nothing between missions. Have you no life? A Day Job skill can be an important for RP even if you just put a point in and say "That's what he/she does between scenario, now where's my roll."

I don't get how that is an important part for RP in that context at all.

If it does actually affect role-playing doesn't that fall under "...work it into your character's persona."? (The sentence immediately prior to the one you sniped).

As for not doing anything between sessions, why would an adventurer want a boring day job they 5-10 gold a week on? If I made 80,000 a year doing short, dangerous jobs, I sure as heck wouldn't spend my off time washing dishes for $40/ day. It's far more likely an adventurer would spend his off time on fun things.

**

Not looking to extend the debate here, but I will answer these direct questions:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Good day, Shifty. I'm sympathetic to your situation, I guess, but I don't understand your point.

Shifty wrote:
Sure one could take 'Perform:Comedy' or something, however what this is all boiling down to is if you want to gain money on the side, then you must pay a Skill Tax in order to do so.
You see, from my perspective, it's not "a skill tax". It's paying for what you get.

Actually the point I'm making is that this is a clear cut case of notgetting what I paid for. The SoH skill clearly states in the CRB that it can be used as though you were using the Perform skill, my argument is that for no given reason, the PFS guide deviates from the CRB and denies the SoH skill user that utility.

Where the notion of "skill tax" comes from is that there has been a rationale suggested that the SoH skill is actually usefull in gameplay, and as such can't also be used in Day Job rolls (you even said as much yourself), indeed the only skills that are eligible in and of themselves are skills that have no other utility during the actual session. Of course there's the glaring discrepancy with the Bard, however.

So in no way shape or form am I suggesting:

Chris Mortika wrote:


Player: I want to track people. It's part of my character's background as a sorcerer.
GM: That requires a good roll in Survival.
Player: It's unfair that I have to pay a skill tax to track.

Substitute "make money on the side" for "track people", and "Craft, Profession, or Perform" in place of "Survival."

A more accurate portrayal of my grievance would be:

Player: I want to make a roll to try track the bad guys, I have put points into Survival.
GM: Sorry you can't do that.
Player: Huh?
GM: Survival already lets you survive in the wild, so we have removed the tracking ability for game balance and to ensure we reward good roleplaying. If you pay 4PP though, or buy some other special tracking only skill, then maybe we can do a deal.

Except in this case I'm not even asking for that much utility.

Chris Mortika wrote:


You're having trouble coming up with a roleplaying justification as to why you have to get your faction to lean on the Thieves' Guild to let you have some uncontested street space to ply your 3-card monte routines for cash?

Well on the most basic level I am having trouble justifying why a skill is being discriminated against and having a portion of its utility removed. That although the skill cites a 'Perform' capacity, in this case it is being denied.

Being being told the utility can be returned, but at a significant investment that will cost significantly more than I'm likely to make from the skill in the first place I also find irksome.

That there is no way for a starting character to be able to even do that is further annoyance.

I keep seeing this reference to 'roleplay', but I still don't see how this is actually congruent with the rulings given.

With regards the point I made about making cash on the side, obviously during the session play, performers and craftsmen have their minds set (as they should) on the work at hand. In order to keep them on goal, however, OP doesn't give them an opportunity to make side money by using their vocational skills during 'game time', instead deferring that check to the end of the session and allowing them to make that money at that later time.

In order to give that mechanic a mechanical term, they call it a 'Day Job'.

Now putting that mechanic aside, if we were playing the sessions and WERE allowed to make our various perform checks etc DURING play, then SoH would clearly be able to (under RAW in CRB) qualify for a check as well, just as any other Perform skill held by any other player, and this the player would be entitled to make his money too.

Yet when this was translated to the Day Job roll mechanic, he has suddenly been denied this entitlement.

Anyhow in closing, I already said above that I was pretty much done here: I disagree with the ruling, I don't think it is justified (as in it hasn't actually been stated why the rule is as it is formally), and it seems rather arbitrary. I am not convinced by the esoteric claims of 'good roleplay' on one hand, and it 'ruining the fun of others' on the other.

It appears to be an arbitrary case with no rationale, but some days that's just how it rolls.

So yeah, unless anyone else has any direct questions, I rest my case.

Qadira ** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shifty wrote:
Actually the point I'm making is that this is a clear cut case of notgetting what I paid for. The SoH skill clearly states in the CRB that it can be used as though you were using the Perform skill, my argument is that for no given reason, the PFS guide deviates from the CRB and denies the SoH skill user that utility.

I find it odd that you feel SoH should completely supersede Perform. Why would anyone ever take Perform if this were the case?

Regardless, its not a normal skill check, 'Day Job' is a PFS specific check and has it's own rules.

**

Because...

Maybe they don't want to do that sort of 'Performance'?

Perform has a lot of different categories, singing, dancing, musical instruments, comedy etc. People choose the one that fits what they want to do. If you want to be a 'magician' or Juggler, then that capacity is covered by sleight of hand (which is what magicians in the real world practice, strangely enough)

It doesn't supersede Perform, it sits beside it.

Where the clearest case of this comes out is in the Bard using Perform for his/her abilities - certain abilities require certain Perform types, and you couldn't use SoH for those any more than you could any other inappropriate Perform skill (or any other skill you'd care to mention).

I think the constant retreat to 'Day Job' is a PFS specific check and has it's own rules' is a bit of chicanery, and I have covered why in my last post and a few others).

CRB wrote:
You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

Theres no mention of 'just being able to make a skill check', it says the use is as though using the Perform skill. The Point is that SoH specifically states you may use the skill as the Perform Skill.

So we go to the PFS guide...

Quote:
Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play Version 4.0—8/4/11] Some are trained artisans, professionals, or performers and earn extra gold on the side, between missions. During these times, you can attempt a Craft, Perform, or Profession skill check to see how much extra money you earn

So I'd like to use the SoH skill as though I was using the Perform Skill, just like the Core Rulebook says I can.

Quote:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play Version 4.0—8/4/11]

Certain Vanities (see the Pathfinder Society Field
Guide) allow you to further modify your Day Job rolls, or
even let you use skill ranks from other, more specialized
skills like Heal or Sleight of Hand.

I can see why Heal etc were brought in under vanities, and whilst I think they are a bit expensive I can understand where they are coming from, however the difference between SoH and the other abilities such as the Heal skill is that the SoH skill is that the CRB already treats it as a Perform skill.

I just flat out reckon they must have forgotten this significant echanic of the skill, and/or just assumed that SoH users wanted to be pickpockets. In which case having to join a local guild is spot on.

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