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Can a mount and rider become immune to attacks of opportunity provoked by movement by utilizing the Escape Route feat? You be the judge!
I figured this was silly enough to discuss.
Escape Route (teamwork feat)
You have trained to watch your allies’ backs, covering them as they make tactical withdraws.
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.
Mounts in Combat
Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds...For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
So, a mount and rider are always within each other's space. If the mount has an INT 3 enabling both it and the rider to learn Escape Route, can both creatures pinball willy-nilly through the battlefield without provoking AoOs? They are, afterall, technically both moving into or through squares occupied by or adjacent to each other.
This makes me laugh.
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Can a mount and rider become immune to attacks of opportunity provoked by movement by utilizing the Escape Route feat? You be the judge!
I figured this was silly enough to discuss.
Escape Route (teamwork feat)
You have trained to watch your allies’ backs, covering them as they make tactical withdraws.
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.
Mounts in Combat
Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds...For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
So, a mount and rider are always within each other's space. If the mount has an INT 3 enabling both it and the rider to learn Escape Route, can both creatures pinball willy-nilly through the battlefield without provoking AoOs? They are, afterall, technically both moving into or through squares occupied by or adjacent to each other.
This makes me laugh.
I wonder what you could pull if the rider was an inquisitor with the "solo tactics" ability? Does the mount need the INT of 3+ then?
The mount wouldn't provoke, but the Inquisitor still would be vulnerable.
The other way around. The FAQ on Solo Tactics and Outflank means that the "bonus" granted by Solo Tactics is not the "Benefit" line of the feat. Rather, it's whatever positive outcome results from the use of the feat. So, just as Outflank works backwards (the ally gains the ability to have crits cause an AoO for the inquisitor) so would Escape Route. The mount would gain the ability to allow the inquisitor to move without provoking.
Teaming up with a horse, though, seems both terribly cheesy, and also awesome. At the same time.
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From the rules for mounts in combat:
You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move
Far as I can tell (for anyone not using solo tactics anyway,) the rider and mount are both moving even though the mount is using the move action (i.e. the mount is moving and the rider is being moved.) From the text for Escape Route, it seems both rider and mount are watching each other's back as they move in conjunction, thereby making both immune to AoOs.
It does seem terribly cheesy and awesome at the same time. I'm not sure I'd ever do it, but I'm also not entirely convinced it's broken or overpowered. It seems like a pretty even trade for the feat cost. I don't see it stealing Mobility's thunder too much because Mobility is still useful when the two are separated, and it seems to make sense that two creatures trained at working in unison could avoid those AoOs better than one moving alone, sort of Improved Mobility-esque.
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Can a mount and rider become immune to attacks of opportunity provoked by movement by utilizing the Escape Route feat? You be the judge!
I figured this was silly enough to discuss.
Escape Route (teamwork feat)
You have trained to watch your allies’ backs, covering them as they make tactical withdraws.
Prerequisite: none
Benefit: An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.
Mounts in Combat
Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds...For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
So, a mount and rider are always within each other's space. If the mount has an INT 3 enabling both it and the rider to learn Escape Route, can both creatures pinball willy-nilly through the battlefield without provoking AoOs? They are, afterall, technically both moving into or through squares occupied by or adjacent to each other.
This makes me laugh.
I am going to try analyzing the wording of the feat as it is pertinent to my halfling cavalier (helpful trait, order of dragon, & bodyguard)
"An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space."
I will break the "or" statement apart.
"An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you." (no mention of threatened spaces)
"An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares within your space." (assumed you are large or mounted)
Easy part: Halfling uses tactician, granting the feat to my party (mount included- allies need not meet prerequisites) I no longer provoke AoO from enemies when passing through party member spaces and adjacent spaces to them. This is assuming they are stationary as we move on different initiatives. Likewise, ally's do not provoke when moving through my space and adjacent spaces to me.
Tough part: Because my mount and I share the same space, we are not moving though any space relative to one another. We move as one unit. However if I were to dismount, I am moving in space relative to my mount while dismounting- I do not provoke AoO. Once on ground we are treated as 2 allies and treated as written in the easy part.
I could also talk about non-ownership of spaces while moving and whether or not I count as my own ally - both moot point
While this feat works with mounts, it does not allow rider and mount total immunity from movement based AoO.
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I'm pretty sure it works, although if not, lances have reach so you can just air walk your mount. that way it can still charge but you can stay out of reach.
Are you planning on doing this sort of build or is this theorycraft? I've always been a huge fan of mounted combat, and I've got a couple builds you might try.
Chargin’ Chuck
By Paddywagon Man
Human Cleric 19 / Dragoon Fighter 1(if choice of any 2 domains allowed by GM)
or else Human Separatist Cleric 19 / Dragoon Fighter 1
Attributes
Cha/Wis>Str>Con/Dex>Int
STR: 14
DEX: 12
CON: 12
INT: 7
WIS: 15
CHA: 17 (15+2)
Traits
Reactionary: +2 Initiative
Accelerated Drinker: drink potions as a move action (as a mounted charger you will have a lot of free move actions)
Feats/Domain Abilities
1 (Dragoon Fighter): Mounted Combat, Skill Focus (Ride), Ride-By Attack, Power Attack
2: Speak With Animals, Destructive Smite +1, Channel - 1d6
3: Channel Smite
4: Channel - 2d6
5: Spirited Charge, Animal Companion, Destructive Smite +2
6: Channel - 3d6
7: Boon Companion, Destructive Smite +3 (Animal Companion now a Big Cat)
8: Channel - 4d6
9: Alignment Channel (Evil), Destructive Aura +4, Destructive Smite +4
10: Channel - 5d6
11: Improved Channel, Destructive Aura +5, Destructive Smite +5
12: Channel - 6d6
13: Vital Strike, Destructive Aura +6, Destructive Smite +6
14: Channel - 7d6
15: Extend Spell, Destructive Aura +7, Destructive Smite +7
16: Channel - 8d6
17: Quicken Spell, Destructive Aura +8, Destructive Smite +8
18: Channel - 9d6
19: Improved Vital Strike, Destructive Aura +9, Destructive Smite +9
20: Channel - 10d6
Spells
For the most part your spells will be utility, self-buffs and buffs for your big cat. Air Walk is amazing for this. It lets you charge those pesky flying enemies while still going really fast on a tiger with haste. Divine Power helps you hit with your lance. Bless affects you AND your Tiger/Lion, so for a first-level spell it stays pretty useful.
What the Build Looks Like at...
This assumes a 20 point buy, Channel Smite, Destructive Smite, Power Attack, Destructive Aura, no magic items, and a breastplate. This, of course, only applies when you get off your charges.
Level 1: HP: 11, AC 17. Charges for 2d8+10, on a horse or something.
Level 4: HP: 30, AC 17. Charges for 2d8+12+2d6
Level 8: HP: 56, AC 17. Charging on a Tiger for 3d8+31+4d6. Tiger pounces (with Power Attack) and hits for 1d8+13/1d6+13/1d6+13/1d6+13/1d6+13
Level 12: HP: 82, AC 17. Destructive Aura now giving huge damage boosts to the Tiger and to your lance. Charges for 3d8+63+6d6.
Tiger pounces for 1d8+18/1d6+18/1d6+18/1d6+18/1d6+18
Level 16: HP: 108, AC 17. Vital Strike adds a bit of extra damage now. 6d8+84+8d6. Tiger now at 1d8+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24
Level 20: HP: 134, AC 17. Improved Vital Strike is now in effect, meaning you now deal 9d8+99+10d6 (an average of 244.5 damage) and your tiger does 1d8+30/ 1d6+30/ 1d6+30/ 1d6+30/ 1d6+30. (this averages at 168.5, meaning that between the two of you you average 413 damage on a charge with no magic items and no buffs).
I think this combo would probably work. I've thought of doing something similar with a valet familiar.
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Relative movement? We're not doing high level physics here. If you've moving and you're near an ally, you don't provoke. Note there is no mention of the mover having used a move action, just that they are moving. Heck, an enemy could even use a power that forces you to move, and this feat would still prevent the provocation.
Anyway, yeah it works. It also works if you have a familiar with the Valet archetype. It's pretty cheesy and could probably use an errata.
Still, it's hardly the most powerful feat out there. Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Rapid Shot, and the like, are still ultimately better than this in most cases.
It is not "relative movement". It is one unit moving a as block or 2 units, one saying stationary, another moving.
I agree with Bobbodagreen, if a rider and his mount move together at one initiative count, they don't benefit from this feat.
About the inquisitor and solo tactic:
Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies' positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the inquisitor to receive the listed bonus.
It is the inquisitor turn to move.
He has an adjacent ally.He treat his companion as if they had the feat.
He get the feat benefit as: 1) he is moving in a square adjacent to someone with the feat; 2) he has the feat.
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@ Diego Rossi: That's just plain wrong. It's already well established that Escape Route works as That Crazy Alchemist just used it. A GM might create a house rule disallowing it, although I don't see why.
If this teamwork feat does not work for a rider and mount, please provide even one example in which this teamwork feat makes even the smallest bit of sense.
Excuse me? A PFS GM has allowed it so it work that way? And if another PFS GM interpret the rule differently?
They aren't the developers, nor the final rule judges, they are GM, like you or me. Read the PFS forums a bit, you will find plenty of posts about GMs doing wrong calls.My interpretation can be wrong, but the opinion of one or several PFS GM don't make the other interpretation right.
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The problem with mounted combat is that you aren't moving through a ally square or a square adjacent to an ally. You are in all the mount squares and both of you are a single object that is moving.
RAI it is possible that this feat was meant to work with a mount.
RAW? I don't see it working, as you aren't moving separately from your mount. You are a single unit moving.
It's great for a mounted Hunter. Even if you can't fit it into your build it's available for emergencies. If you're in a pickle you can switch your most recent Teamwork Feat to Escape Route as a Standard action and your companion gets to use it, too. Move action to get out of dodge.
You can even switch it back once you've got a Standard action to spare.
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The problem with mounted combat is that you aren't moving through a ally square or a square adjacent to an ally. You are in all the mount squares and both of you are a single object that is moving.RAI it is possible that this feat was meant to work with a mount.
RAW? I don't see it working, as you aren't moving separately from your mount. You are a single unit moving.
Works just fine by RAW. The wording of the mounted combat rules makes no mention of you moving as a single unit, rather you are two individual units occupying the same space and moving in unison.
There's not even a grey area here, due to the line "...or within your space." at the end of Escape Plan. It wouldn't work without that part, and with it, it remarkably clearly works.It can as part of a mounted charge, because you gain the benefits of charging without making a charge action. Your mount charges and you spend your standard action to make an attack with Vital Strike.Unfortunately, Vital Strike cannot be used as part of a chargeLevel 16: HP: 108, AC 17. Vital Strike adds a bit of extra damage now. 6d8+84+8d6. Tiger now at 1d8+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24
Level 20: HP: 134, AC 17. Improved Vital Strike is now in effect...
No it cannot be used as part of a mounted charge as that requires both the mount and the rider to make the Charge action. It CAN be used on the back of a mount as long as the mount does not move more than 5 ft however.
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It can as part of a mounted charge, because you gain the benefits of charging without making a charge action. Your mount charges and you spend your standard action to make an attack with Vital Strike.Unfortunately, Vital Strike cannot be used as part of a chargeLevel 16: HP: 108, AC 17. Vital Strike adds a bit of extra damage now. 6d8+84+8d6. Tiger now at 1d8+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24
Level 20: HP: 134, AC 17. Improved Vital Strike is now in effect...
It cannot. Per this FAQ both you and your mount are charging.