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1. The AP kicks you off as shady criminal freelancers and suddenly shifts you into heroic "no rewards necessary" saviors of elven race...
2 ... who screw you over at least once and still expect you to save them just because ...
3 ... and the whole module 5 is such a horrible mess that I don't even know where to start.
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Yep, Gorbacz has got it spot on.
Changes needed:
A different player's guide so that you don't all make piratical scallywags.
Nice elves, lots of them.
A complete re-write of book 5.
That said, if you could do those things then this AP would be a blast. APs 1-3 are awesome but poorly linked, 4 is strange but fascinating and 6 looks like a piece of trippy wonderfulness.
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Well my players have really enjoyed it we are just starting book 5 so we will see how that goes
But my players understand they are on an adventure path and sometimes you have to go along with the story
And If you want the pathfinder conversions I have two threads of them in the Second Darkness Section
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Of course, there's a lot of good to be said about SD. The second adventure is classy, the whole inflitrate-drow-city story is done very well, the support articles are great and it was a springboard for Golarion's Under....arklands.
But as a string of adventures, it just falls apart due to severe disconnect between the first two adventures and the rest of the AP, horribly railroady metaplot and adventure 5 which is just muaaargh brumble.
Also, this AP introduced the short-lived (fortunately) idea of Side Treks, which didn't quite work.
One other (mild) criticism I've heard is that some of the fights are too easy and/or too repetitive. Repeated encounters vs. NPCs with class levels aren't always the toughest or most unique.
Could you just run the first couple AP issues to make a short AP?
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End of book three has a great climax that could totally work as the end of the AP. Just drop Allevrah and make Nolveniss the big bad.
(Of course, then you miss out on the infiltrate-the-drow-city plotline that was the whole reason I was running the AP.)
But yes, the campaign traits are only useful for the first book, the player's guide sets the PCs up for an adventure the AP doesn't intend to deliver, and book five is godawful (all the action takes place in cutscenes the PCs are expected to just stand and watch).
Having some recurring elven NPCs who are genuinely on the PCs' side, even if they can't aid them openly in Kyonin due to politics, makes a big difference. One of my group's PCs is a member of the Shin'Rakorath and is being actively helped by the group, if via sneakiness and subterfuge.
Joana I have a PC who is a memember also How are you helping him in the 5th adventure we are going to start that book after the new year
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We're right at the beginning of book 5 too, and a DM's best plans don't always survive contact with the PCs ... but what I'm planning to do is this:
I'm switching the political parties around. Villastir will actually be of the party opposed to the Winter Council, and Telandia is secretly on the side of the Shin'Rakorath, although only the very highest-up in the organization know that the queen is even aware of the drow situation or anything more than a figurehead and pawn of her advisors. (Just because Allevrah turned bad doesn't mean the Winter Council has to be evil; in my world, their sole concern is the defeat of the drow and the preservation of the elves' dark secret by any means necessary, and they're covering up their own weakness out of fear that if it were known, it would encourage their enemies.)
I'm skipping the whole Arrows in the Night encounter, since it makes no sense for the Shin'Rakorath to ambush their own secret resources. The team from Crying Leaf will make an appearance to testify on the PCs' behalf that they were an integral part to the victory at Celwynvian -- but that they entered the Darklands on their own, contrary to orders (since it was a black ops mission). While the court considers the PCs case, they are kept in luxury but under guard. One of the Shin'Rakorath agents arrives at their quarters with orders from Queen Telandia to move them to a new location; this is when they are put into the Paradise Chamber with Quilindra. Once he has delivered them to their new holding cell, the agent "returns" a book he ostensibly borrowed from the PC Shin'Rakorath member. Hidden within the pages is a message to escape by whatever means possible and go directly to the Winter Council. The PCs don't know where it is, but ... cue the disguised succubus who can take them there.
I'm actually planning to replace the Grand Tour of Golarion with a series of tests in the queen's abandoned summer palace, adapted from part of Academy of Secrets, that will lead to the aiudara that will deliver them to Tanglebriar. Then I'm stealing from The Demon Within to let the PCs replace the Maleficus Spike to give them something a little more interesting to do at Thorn's End. I think I'll have Telandia herself show up at the Winter Council at some point to reveal to the PCs that she is on their side and was part of the plot to free them in the first place. I'm still fairly sketchy on the second half of the book, as I'll have a few sessions to see how things go before I make firm plans.
Yeah Im trying to figure out what im going to do with certain parts, I have a paladin so things will get interesting to say the least
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Book 5 works, but not as intended.
Simply use the entire Winter Council area as a large dungeon, with the appropriate NPCs as the "bosses."
This way, you are helping the elves by killing elves, which was what our group really really wanted to do, anyways.
Also, if you (as GM) play up the "temporary stopover" in Riddleport as more of a "get cash to continue adventuring" rather than "invest in the city and get stuck in", your players may have an easier time transitioning to books 3 & 4.
Finally, get those first couple of elven NPCs right (actually nice, the party likes em, they DON'T try to screw the party over), and the hook for books 3 & 4 sets much easier on the players.
In short, pick ONE faction of elves (whether the Winter Council, the Queen & her folks, the Shin'Rakorath, or just the NPCs the party meets early on), and decide they are the "good guys." They don't turn on the party, they don't screw them over, and the rest of the AP should fall in line pretty nicely.
As written it can take a bit of work for a GM, though that will of course depend on your players. Note, there is quite a bit of supplemental material within the SD forum that can help.
With that said, if the party starts off as a) elven, and b) fledgling members of Shin'Rakorath it makes the whole AP easier to run as written.
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Thanks a lot for all the advice on this. We just started playing this AP two sessions ago, and so far the players are actually really enjoying the whole slowly taking over the casino aspect. I am a little worried as to how the latter half of the AP will go though, because the players are getting really invested in the town, one player kind of wants to slowly insert himself as a new crimelord, or rather insert someone else and control the strings from behind the curtain. I even ran St. Caspierans, and they did something totally unexpected, they rented the top floor out as a non-profit orphanage... This is from players who usually burn down schools and murder everything they can. So far they've even taken every major threat alive, another new tactic for them.
Anyway, I'm excited to see my players playing in new ways, and I like their more calculated, getting involved in the community, sort of group personality that's emerging. So I'm trying to think of ways to continue encouraging this, and keep Riddleport as their seat of power and safe zone, as well as a spot for downtime and random encounters, but still get them to give a damn about what goes on outside of the town. Any suggestions for that?
Finally, get those first couple of elven NPCs right (actually nice, the party likes em, they DON'T try to screw the party over), and the hook for books 3 & 4 sets much easier on the players.
This. And, if I did it over, I'd let the PCs learn about the Winter Council early. Understanding why the elves are stand off-ish would make things better.
I agree that the AP has - issues - in the latter half but I maintain that the second book is one of the most fun adventures I've ever run. The alien and odd occurrences really resonated with my party.
Overall, they were not too disconcerted by drow - they've known about drow for a long time, regardless if they were new to Golarion. But an entirely new monster with peculiar habits and zombie attendants gave them a great deal of pause.
It's the favourite AP of several of my players. The only change I made: the PCs are all agents of the Winter Council.
The only change I made: the PCs are all agents of the Winter Council.
Same here. AP works nicely when all players are Shin'Rakorath agents with strong emphasis on teamwork when in duty. Only part that I fear not working is Memory of Darkness, it has major issues. Especially when running this to my group as it includes their "boss" to screw them but we'll see how it goes. Now we are bit over the half way of Armageddon Echo.
All in all, Second Darkness is at least decent AP. The first three parts are normal Paizo quality adventures. Main problem is premise: after reading player's guide I thought this AP was Riddleport AP, like Tortuga in Varisia. Then it turns to "save elves, save the world" AP. Again, writing something like "adventure will go to elven forest and war against their hated enemies" would have ruined the whole adventure for me.
Have their bosses backstab them because they know to much and have become a danger
Until just recently when we had a player quit their was always a Shin Member within our party
I said that their contact person was dead, and the PCs didn't know how to be in touch with HQ, let alone where it was. The queen didn't know their affiliation, but the PCs knew she was their enemy. They chose to work with the demon but not the queen.
Do you have specific questions? Can I help?
I said that their contact person was dead, and the PCs didn't know how to be in touch with HQ, let alone where it was. The queen didn't know their affiliation, but the PCs knew she was their enemy. They chose to work with the demon but not the queen.
Do you have specific questions? Can I help?
My PCs haven't even heard about Winter Council yet, hopefully they'll learn about that inside the Armageddon Echo. Even Kaerishiel is unknowing about real leaders of Winter Council and Shin'Rakorath. But contact person between Kaerishiel (and so PCs) and Winter Council could do the trick.
Did either of you change thing about Queen? When I was playing this campaign, Queen and how she handled things in her kingdom was big turnoff for me. She was ruler but still couldn't change things (like her government being uneffective) to better as Winter Council agents made it hard. I haven't read Memory of Darkness for some time so I could have forgotten something but still. How did you make her and her problems believable?
I stressed the chaotic nature of elvish culture (which I took from the fact that a typical elf is Chaotic Good), and emphasized that elves didn't like to be governed. The queen's antagonism toward the Winter Council meant that she was seen as an enemy instead of an ally, so I didn't need to change anything else. Players don't seem to mind incompetent enemies, for some reason. :)
I made her a little more helpful on the downlo
My players had a day or two in the city before the attack and they had alot of their armors and weapons comishioned to be improved so they were in the paradise chambers like crap we have to break out and then go rob a magic store but on the day they were to be finished they ended up in the chambers with her mark like in the book so they know she was really on their side
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And that was REALLY where our group fell apart.
The DM played the Queen as an aloof so-and-so (which as I understand it, she's pretty much written that way).
Then we were essentially held prisoner there.
THEN we got ambushed at night where the elves were holding us. No help from them at all as we were getting face-stomped in a surprise nighttime attack (so unarmored.) It was messy.
We said "Yeah we're done" and essentially had our characters walk home (eg. ended the campaign.)
Playing the Queen as a BIT more sympathetic/helpful and the elves as just a hair more helpful could have made us want to continue. Shrug.
Even before we got to Kyonin my character was planning to grab the drow control codes and use them to nuke the elves (only the elves, she liked the rest of the world...)
I played her as Aloof but they all hit the sense motive when she flashed them the look so they knew something was going on
From the book they are thinking they might have to work with the Winter Council to stop the drow
Is this a good resource for Riddleport? If so, which books?
Is this a good resource for Riddleport? If so, which books?
Book 1, Shadow in the Sky, is the only one set in Riddleport. I believe it's the most complete collection of information on the city in print yet. It includes a map and information on the various crime lords and local personages and landmarks.
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Even before we got to Kyonin my character was planning to grab the drow control codes and use them to nuke the elves (only the elves, she liked the rest of the world...)
Which is exactly what our pcs did at the end...only they left the threat in place as a safeguard against future elven betrayal.
Then we killed em the conventional way.
Thanks! I was considering a sandbox game whee the PCs can carve out a piece of the pie for themselves and this seemed like the best place for such a thing.
Any other sources besides the wiki I should consider?
The Second Darkness Player's Guide has information on various races and classes in and around Riddleport, as well as a player-friendly overview of the city, a sidebar on popular deities in Riddleport, prominent NPCs, Riddleport slang, and a stat block for local tiefling prostitute Lavender Lil.
Its so funny I worried so much about adventure 5 and the Players really enjoyed this book so far, they are prepping for the meeting and expecting something bad to happen.
It was so funny cause they are like these assassins came after us an they had Winter Council symbols on them and the first guy the met and they told this asked them do you know any secret organizations that have a symbol? They were like son of a biotch we got dooped it was pretty funny
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Of course, there's a lot of good to be said about SD. The second adventure is classy, the whole inflitrate-drow-city story is done very well, the support articles are great and it was a springboard for Golarion's Under....arklands.
But as a string of adventures, it just falls apart due to severe disconnect between the first two adventures and the rest of the AP, horribly railroady metaplot and adventure 5 which is just muaaargh brumble.
Also, this AP introduced the short-lived (fortunately) idea of Side Treks, which didn't quite work.
I contend that Children of the Void is one of the best books in any AP, which is what makes it so sad the rest of the AP fell apart around it.
I would love to see something cobbled together out of it, because even the bad books have interesting ideas. I've stolen parts and used them elsewhere, but this was one AP where you could tell the different authors really wanted to go in different directions.
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Hmmm....Ciretose I think you may be on to something here.
Start with Edge of Anarchy, but in Riddleport.
Go on to Children of the Void, then a mashup of Seven Days to the Grave/Hook Mountain Massacre.
Now the party is invested in Riddleport, probably has at least one ship, a casino, and a wilderness fort under their control.
Pick your favorite "third act" adventures (War of the River Kings or Fortress of the Stone Giants would work well here), and wrap up with the finale to Council of Thieves.
It's almost all urban/dungeon and with some tweaking, flows nicely from 1 adventure to the next. Plus, it never forces the party to abandon their "settlements" as they progress.
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While you were down smoking, you guys were rescued. But what didn't help is that the only one who made their sense motive/perception check, had already decided that he was gonna quit. The surprise attack was what broke it for everyone. Two rounds in and I knew the game was over.
Ah! Well at least the rescue came. Better late than never. Heh.
And not a problem. Like I said, you played the elves and the queen as they were written... jerks. lol. I certainly don't hold it against the DM for playing the characters as they're written.
And I remember even you saying you'd need to do a complete rewrite of book 5 if we all wanted to continue, but work had you swamped, so that's totally understandable. It was just a shame book 5 was so bloody bad because the first 4 parts were fun. Oh well. Live and learn.
Overall though, I enjoyed the first 4 parts and would put book 2 as one of the best individual adventures of all the APs.
Yeah, I was DMing it solo from 1-3 and then it died off. Loved the vibe of book 1 and 2 and so did my player, then when it started pushing away from scallywag invested in the growth and greed of Riddleport my player lost interest, he suffered from the worst of all adventuring diseases, "Why should I care?"
Maybe I could have done better shaping the party for the adventure, but I thought the first 2 adventures clearly had one vibe and then other adventures had a very different vibe. Good luck making it work!
Jeff...
I am running it for a party of evil or neutral characters. They were originally part of a "mob family" (though only 2 of the original 6 characters are still around), looking to find out how Saul got some money and get a foothold in Riddleport (other bosses there weren't letting the "family" in). After that I've had the drow repeatedly put bounties on the party's heads, and so now they want to crush the drow for it (what is better than greed? revenge and greed!). We are only now finishing book 3 but it seems to be going ok. I also replaced the elves with a hobgoblin nation (though there are elves around as well, as that was what the city was originally and the gates).
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It wasn't work, it was losing my apartment in the flood and then all the headaches that came with that. As someone else said, it's just a bunch of cut scenes that you guys got to run to. Lots of combats, but you guys would have been like the storm troopes that show up at the end and get to do mop up duty.
Right! I'd forgotten about the flooding. You were literally swamped... not figuratively (eh... bad joke. Ignore that)
I should go back and look at book 5 and 6 eventually. Book 6 in particular looked quite done (if something could be done with 5...)
And I've ran books 1-3 as a "mini-AP" and they work great together. Loads of fun to run (just like they were when I got to play them). Would recommend those adventures as a short series to folks that only have time for a short AP.
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Hmmm....Ciretose I think you may be on to something here.
Start with Edge of Anarchy, but in Riddleport.
Go on to Children of the Void, then a mashup of Seven Days to the Grave/Hook Mountain Massacre.Now the party is invested in Riddleport, probably has at least one ship, a casino, and a wilderness fort under their control.
Pick your favorite "third act" adventures (War of the River Kings or Fortress of the Stone Giants would work well here), and wrap up with the finale to Council of Thieves.
It's almost all urban/dungeon and with some tweaking, flows nicely from 1 adventure to the next. Plus, it never forces the party to abandon their "settlements" as they progress.
Actually... That kind of works...
Start with Edge of Anarchy, but in Riddleport.
Go on to Children of the Void, then a mashup of Seven Days to the Grave/Hook Mountain Massacre.
Nice combo there.
I'm pondering a similar take, but with Shadow in the Sky shifted to Korvosa, and followed by a mix of Children of the Void and the urban segment of Skinsaw Murders.
Academy of Secrets might round it off nicely and the combo serves as a nice campaign to follow with Curse of the Crimson Throne.
All that said, I'm just about to backtrack and snag the Council of Thieves AP given your suggestion of looting the end of it.
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So, I came up with some campaign traits for an elf-tastic Second Darkness.
Characters would be agents of the winter council, sent to Riddleport to investigate the strange events and to liaise with an agent who dies at the gold goblin fiasco.
These are rough drafts and observations, ideas and criticism are very welcome.
Second Darkness: Agents of the Winter Council
Campaign Traits
1. Loyal to the Council
Although your understanding of the organisation and purpose of the Winter Council is hazy, you have grown up around whispered tales of their hidden influence and knowing references to their defence of the Elven nation. This whetted your appetite and you have been eager to attract their attention: although being sent to a backwater city near Celwynvian was not quite what you had in mind you are determined to prove your worth to the council.
Your determination and strength of character are evidenced in a +1 bonus to will saves.
2. Open-Minded
You love your people and their ways but have found two hundred years of elves, elves and yet more elves to be quite enough. You are eager to explore the wider world and the mission you have been sent on will enable you to do just that.
Your open-minded, inquisitive nature means you pick up information easily: you gain a +1 bonus to knowledge (local) and it is always a class skill for you.
3. Haunted
In many ways, you love the Elven way of life but the joy in your homeland and its people has been soured by some great tragedy (a drowned lover whose memory returns painfully to you, a great failure of friendship which stops you from showing your face without shame...): whatever it is, you are eager to escape your homeland and serve the Elven nation in a new part of the world, far from your memories.
Being haunted by memories has taught you to recognise and control your other fears: you gain +2 to saving throws against fear effects.
4. Tu-Tel-Quessir
You are a friend of the Elves, loyal to the people and their ways. Whilst not an elf yourself, you have lived long amongst them and feel that you owe a debt of friendship, or perhaps some deeper debt (were you saved as a child, were rare medicines found for your lover, or parent) to elves or the winter council which leads you to accept a place amongst their agents, helping them to operate in areas not so dominated by elvenkind.
You carry a personal gift (a broach, tattoo or some other ornament) which marks you out as a friend of the Elven people. This gift allows you a circumstance bonus (between +2 and +10, depending upon the exact situation) to diplomacy checks when dealing with elves and friends of the elves. You begin play with Elven as a bonus language.
5. Brightness Seeker
You have sought the brightness all you life; your search has led you to the Winter Council and thence to Riddleport. Choose a Knowledge skill: you gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge checks of that type and on Perception checks.
I am about to DM this campaign, and I decided to go a completely different direction than what is suggested here.
Rather than make it more elfy, I am making it less elfy and also throwing in some of the more popular pieces of other adventure paths.
First, somewhere before the end part of book 1 (before they leave town in book 2), I'm going to run them through Foxglove Manor (From Skinsaw Murders) and the Sixfold Trial play stuff. I think they can fit in with the "wierd things are happening in this messed up town" theme.
Books 2 and 3 will stay pretty much intact.
The planned target of the next big attack will be the town that they've worked so hard to clean up. The WC will be the ones who help them infiltrate in book 4.
Most importantly, I am planning on replacing book 5 completely with Skeletons of Scarwall, which I will use as the WC's home base that the BBEG has taken over.
I'm sure I'll run into issues but I hope it will be fun and avoid the pitfalls of this AP.