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The Day Job is not completely just a skill check. It is a custom abstraction that uses a skill to resolve. Taking 10 is more applicable to a single action where you take your time regarding that particular action and are under no threat.
What "threat" could entail is very subjective, IMO. It could mean any type of distraction. Therefore, taking 10 on a task that covers many days/weeks is not, again IMO, practical. I assume that you will be distracted periodically during your attempts and would therefore need to start over. YMMV
I take 10 at my job every day. The auto-pilot is strong with me.
Day Jobs aren't a single long task but rather performing several tasks for cumulative money. This might affect the idea of distraction being the cause.
I think PFS doesn't allow it because the big shots want you to have to dig your dice back out to roll a Day Job after you've already packed up. Karma for thrashing their scenario I guess.
This goes into the same vague area of 'Why does PFS exclude all spells and feats that improve crafting?' It's not like a boost to a Day Job roll to get that 150 gp a scenario is going to break the system. Still, it is there.
So... you're saying the folks at Paizo are doing their part to make it easier to cheat on the job? Maybe getting a cut to turn a blind eye? :P
I have no clue why Day Jobs are done how they are done. I just curse every time I remember I need a d20 and I'm already starting to pack up. Sounds like karma to me.
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Adventurers can't have steady "9 to 5" jobs, because they're constantly leaving town on Society missions. So each time they get back to their home town, they kinda have to start over with finding work (or a buyer for their wares, if they're crafting something).
So I can see why that would be somewhat random: The guy you were working for before your last Society mission might have hired a replacement while you were away and doesn't need you right now. Or the people you were crafting goods for might have gone to another supplier while you were out of town. On the other hand, you might get lucky and do extra well during the week that you're back.
So rolling for this makes perfect sense to me.
Well, I'm know what I'm sending to Paizo for Christmas: a card with the message "You can take 10!"
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Fromper - I'm sure I am not the only one on this board that could come up with a regular job that would let me travel at a moments notice on Society Missions all around the world. (Writing a travel coloume for a local Mag. or Book club, cleric for my Faction Leader, Guild jurneyman - "if I'm in town and punching the clock I pull the pay, it's union rules", so many others). Can I explain why (in game) it has to be a roll and not a T10? Sure. But why do I have to build this in game justification for a rule variation? This is an exception to the T10 rule. I would like to know if there is any reason other than "just 'cause!".
Nosig, you seem to be complaining that people are giving you "in game" justifications for the Day Job no T10 rule, but then you use "in game" justifications for why it should be allowed.
As Bob already pointed out, the Day Job roll is not like other skill checks. It is an abstract way to aggregate income results over an indeterminate period of time during your character's off-hours. Since there is no way to measure that time, and no way to determine what things (good or bad) happen during it, players must roll to represent the hand that luck (again, good and bad) can have in a character's off-hours work.
I'm not sure what else can be said about this. Imo, your question has been answered, but if you feel it hasn't, I guess you will just have to accept, "because its the rule". But I hope you can understand the reasoning behind it.
This goes into the same vague area of 'Why does PFS exclude all spells and feats that improve crafting?' It's not like a boost to a Day Job roll to get that 150 gp a scenario is going to break the system. Still, it is there.the thing is, in requireing rolls the average is actually slightly larger - 10.5 rather than 10.0 - so it can't be the money.
Except the players that cheat at die rolls, ... had one guy say "what's a 30 result give me?" an I blinked and said - "you have a +10 on Craft - with a first level character?" - "ah... no I just was wondering what it would give me. never mind."
Half elf wizard? One rank+skill focus+16int+class skill. +10 right there at first level.
Let me clarify by pointing something out:
You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.
The Day Job roll represents a period of work, which makes it different than say an Acrobatics check to avoid an AoO. But the Craft and Profession skill have the same use stated in the RAW. So a Day Job is technically just like other skill checks, other Craft and Profession skill checks to earn income over time.
Now, that said, there is nothing in the CRB that says you can't take 10 on the Craft check to earn income over time. Nosig is asking why the Day Job, which uses a different mechanic but is in-game the same thing, does not allow the player to take 10. Simply saying it's different isn't an acceptable answer.
Half elf wizard? One rank+skill focus+16int+class skill. +10 right there at first level.
Don't forget +2 circumstance for masterwork tools, +1 competence bonus for ioun stone (200 gp), and +1 trait bonus for the various traits.
Was going for 1st level so proably no stone but yeah so thats a +13
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Let me clarify by pointing something out:You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.The Day Job roll represents a period of work, which makes it different than say an Acrobatics check to avoid an AoO. But the Craft and Profession skill have the same use stated in the RAW. So a Day Job is technically just like other skill checks, other Craft and Profession skill checks to earn income over time.
Now, that said, there is nothing in the CRB that says you can't take 10 on the Craft check to earn income over time. Nosig is asking why the Day Job, which uses a different mechanic but is in-game the same thing, does not allow the player to take 10. Simply saying it's different isn't an acceptable answer.
Actually, saying it's different when it is different is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Notice the emphasis I placed in your quote above. You are right about the RAW in the Core book. But as has already been stated, the Day Job check is meant to cover an indeterminate amount of time. It could be a week, it could be two weeks, or it could also be three days and then you're off on another mission.
I think some confusion is coming from comparisons to the old Living Greyhawk model of "day job" checks. But in LG that time period was a set period, since LG tracked your character's time by the week. Pathfinder Society does not, and because of that and for reasons already stated, you can't Take 10 on a Day Job roll.
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Notice the emphasis I placed in your quote above. You are right about the RAW in the Core book. But as has already been stated, the Day Job check is meant to cover an indeterminate amount of time. It could be a week, it could be two weeks, or it could also be three days and then you're off on another mission.I think some confusion is coming from comparisons to the old Living Greyhawk model of "day job" checks. But in LG that time period was a set period, since LG tracked your character's time by the week. Pathfinder Society does not, and because of that and for reasons already stated, you can't Take 10 on a Day Job roll.
yup, I ran tide or twilight right after the same group ran tide of mourning last month. It was interesting telling the that during the 15 minute break between scenarios, the society had studied the artifact they had brought back for 2 years, while i'm told there are scenarios that i havn't played that go directly one into another with only a day of rest
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Sorry - still not seeing why this is so. Craft magic items takes longer and can be done with a T10 roll. Infact - this same reasoning could be used to give a reason why you should be able to T10 on Day Job rolls.
also, as a gnome, adventuring became boring after my ninth adventure for the society, adventuring got boring and I stopped to avoid bleaching, after 2 centuries or so, when carving became boring, I came back to adventuring, finding the society was sending me more interesting missions now, during this time, I made enough carving my walking sticks cover my expenses, plus 20 gold or so. Who needs a profit in everyday living?
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Using Crafting as an opposing argument is, IMO, not applicable since that is also banned in PFS. Many players claim that rule is also ridiculous and makes no sense. The framer/s of the rules feel that Day Jobs are an abstraction of the standard skill rules for many of the reasons already stated above. You may not agree with their opinions, but they exist nonetheless. To argue against someone's opinion, in most cases, is futile.
The easy answer, and the one that ends the discussion, is "because the Guide says so." That may not answer your question as to the why, but it certainly protects Mike from the inevitable argument that always follows answers to the question of "why."
I like the fact that you must roll for the Day Job. In fact, I like it whenever you have to roll the dice to resolve a mechanical question. Taking 10 or 20, IMO, feels "cheap." Even a master violinist can hit a wrong note. Perhaps not often. Definitely not 5% of the time, but then again, a nat '1' is not an auto-fail anyway. So your success/failure can still be mitigated by the total modifier.
Anyway, I am rambling and this analysis seems more applicable for the OTHER thread so I digress...
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Sorry - still not seeing why this is so. Craft magic items takes longer and can be done with a T10 roll. Infact - this same reasoning could be used to give a reason why you should be able to T10 on Day Job rolls.
And how exactly does your character make money by crafting things? By selling what you create, right?
What if your character gets back to Absalom from a Society mission, and before he even gets a chance to unpack, let alone go out and sell something he made, he gets a summons from a Venture Captain to go on another mission. In game time, you have less than an hour between missions, and you may or may not have a few minutes to send a message to a potential buyer who may or may not want to buy something from you this week. Thus, there's a chance to get a low roll, because you may just not have time to make any money between missions.
There's plenty of in story reasons for this that can be made up for why taking 10 wouldn't work for a day job. But the real answer is that the guys who invented PFS wanted it to be random. Get over it.
It's just a puzzle, kind of like why rainbows make me happy.
Cause they taste like Skittles.
I can see why. It's a special day for a dad when he finds out about his son's fetishes.
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The day job roll continues the simulation and immersion of the game just a bit further into the paperwork at the end of the session. It even gives players something to talk about - I can easily see an argument for requiring players to declare to the table which skill they're using. It shouldn't become "check this box to get more gold".
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It's amusing to me when the time to roll a few dice is used to justify not doing something. Whether it be taking 10, or Day Job rolls, etc. rolling a few dice takes just a few seconds. Really not a big deal. There might be lots of reasons why you (read: anyone) would object to certain dice mechanics in the system, but using "saving time" as a reason is ridiculous, IMO.
I have to half-way agree with James about the time of die rolls. It doesn't seem like it should matter, but I had my players start rolling their damage and miss chance dice with their attack rolls and my combats sped up quite a bit.
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Perhaps the ends of your sessions are less chaotic and you're finishing at the end of the slot or even before
anyone who knows me knows that is not the case. My sessions typically run longer than most, but IMO, it is not due to rolling dice either during or after the scenario.
I tend to let the players dictate the pace and to role-play as much as possible. While that might lead to fewer die rolls because I just allow them to succeed (or fail), I also ask for a lot of rolls during the game so the mechanical players feel like they are accomplishing something as well.
I was specifically referring to the one roll for each player at the conclusion of the scenario. Those rolls, in and of themselves, do not add a measurable amount of time to the session. To use that as a justification for allowing Take 10 on a Day Job, is just silly.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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James, it seems weird to me when you say that the solution to bringing "Day Job, which requires a d20 roll" in line with the normal game rules would be "Day Job, where one can take 10."
The Day Job isn't a skill check. It's a simulation of whatever your character is up to, represented by a skill check.
Why? I can't speak to that, because I never asked Josh Frost. But the campaign coordinators have addressed that very question, in specific, and said that they want it to be a roll.
If I wanted to suppose a reason, so to better justify it to my players, I would explain that the roll doesn't represent a PC's skill; that variable is presumed to be a 10, given the fact that a Day Job takes an indefinite period of time, with a lot of rolls that balance each other out. Rather, the d20 simulates the market forces where the PC is plying his trade. People in Absalom seem to be looking for cabinets this month, but aren't so keen on musical theatre. So your Craft (carpentry) earns more money than my Perform (comic operetta).
In hindsight, I would have recommended that the Day Job roll not be a d20 at all. Maybe 2d10 or something. That way, it would be less likely to be confused with a skill check.
In hindsight, I would have recommended that the Day Job roll not be a d20 at all. Maybe 2d10 or something. That way, it would be less likely to be confused with a skill check.
Nah, cause as soon as you say "Roll 2d10 and add your Craft, Perform or Profession bonus..." you'll still have people thinking it's a skill check.
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If I wanted to suppose a reason, so to better justify it to my players, I would explain that the roll doesn't represent a PC's skill; that variable is presumed to be a 10, given the fact that a Day Job takes an indefinite period of time, with a lot of rolls that balance each other out. Rather, the d20 simulates the market forces where the PC is plying his trade. People in Absalom seem to be looking for cabinets this month, but aren't so keen on musical theatre. So your Craft (carpentry) earns more money than my Perform (comic operetta).
Of course, you still would have difficulty explaining why two people using the same skill get wildly variant results....
"Your Archery Day Job earns you 150 gp, while Ken's Archery day job earns him 10 gp."
Ummm, yeah.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Of course, you still would have difficulty explaining why two people using the same skill get wildly variant results.... "Your Archery Day Job earns you 150 gp, while Ken's Archery day job earns him 10 gp."
No difficulty at all, Callarek.
If I'm earning 150 gp, I need a result of 40+. That is, I need to have, before rolling, a skill bonus of at least 20.
Ken's day job earns 10, so he rolls a results between 15 and 19. At best, he has a skill bonus of 18. More likely, somewhere around 7.
So, patrons are looking for a good bowyer, but the market doesn't support a great many craftspeople. As the better crafter, I get more work than Ken.
And that's assuming that Ken and I are looking for work in the same city, advertising to the same clientele, at the same time, for the same number of weeks. The Day Job roll allows for variations in all of those.
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A couple of years ago, I ran the first 3 Devil We Know scenarios for a group of 5 Andorans and a Chelaixian. The only guy whose day job I remember is the Cheliaxian's. His day job was slaver. Andthe best result he got over all three scenarios was a 10 (5GP). We joked about his running around with Andorans who had to free slaves every mod was causing him to be mistrusted and not get work.
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But the day job roll is a skill check. ...I'm sorry, but there's no reason for it NOT to be a skill check.
...
So it IS a skill check, and it's one that they arbitrarily disallow one to take 10 on.
Except that it ISN'T a skill check, and has been specifically been called out as not being a skill check since the beginning of the campaign.
It still does not allow all of the potential modifiers on it that a skill check does (ex spells), and the Take 10 restriction is one example of that.
There is an in-game logic which has been consistently explained. People may disagree with the ruling, but there is nothing arbitrary about it.
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Just a question to all Take 10 fans
Would you take 10 if you have a skill of 9 (or 14).
If even one or two of you say - on no - in this case I roll as it is much more beneficial to me, then you have a very good reason not to allow it.
Stop meta-gaming.
Take 10 is a problem if the player knows what the DC or the benefit is.
I'm not talking a DC 5 climb check and you need a 3+ to succeed. I'm talking checks where an 8 is a fail and a 10 is success and the player knows it. Or where a 10 is failure and an 11 is success.
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sometimes i just wonder why people ask "why," when they know that there's not going to be an answer that satisfies them.
i think the reason that it was done as a roll is that those who originally designed the system just didn't want characters to be able to rely on X amount of gold after each scenario - they felt it was more dynamic for it to be a variable amount.
as for dice rolling at the end of the session taking too long, then have them roll the result at the beginning of the session while everyone is getting their dice out, note down the total, and then add in any extra modifiers that pop up after the end of the scenario (like leveling, etc). in my opinion, using the "it takes too much time" argument for something like this is just not a real concern, because there are always ways around that.