Taking 10


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Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

nosig wrote:

How do we minimise "the degree of variance" we will be bringing to the table as Judges in Organized Play?

Different Judges will rule things differently - but they should at least rule Rules the same. Otherwise we get Judges saying "I don't care what the Rules say - you can't do that at my table!" (please control your knee-jerk response here, I am not attacking you. What if the Judge in question is objecting to you playing a character of a different gender? Male playing a female halfling for example. I've had a judge who objected to this.)

I don't see this as an equal analogy. If a GM deny's you a T10, it does not prevent you from attempting the skill. Again, a GM doing what you describe is being jerky.

Honestly, I just do not understand the objection to some table variation. If we are talking about a clearly understood rule, that is one thing. If a GM, say, refused to allow you to spent your prestige points for services while in Absalom, that would be a clear violation of the rules. T10 is not the same thing. Sometimes, an event occurs that is not clearly defined by the rules. That is why we have a GM in the first place. Trust in their ability to make the good decision. We don't need every situation to be resolved within the printed rules. The more rules we have, the fewer opportunities we have for spontaneity, because the GM will just say no. I don't want my RPG to become a scripted, strict, cause and effect, MMO.

Keep in mind also that this table variation works both ways. It's not just a situation where players that want T10 will be occasionally denied. There will also be times when players who dislike it will play with a GM who allows it. Since others at the table will likely take advantage of it even if you don't, it could still make that player uncomfortable.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

I don't care what the Rules say - you can't do that at my table!

The Exchange 5/5

Care Baird wrote:
I don't care what the Rules say - you can't do that at my table!

yep, not at my table!, you young coots and you new-fangled ideas are what's ruining my hobby! (ah... that was sarcasm people, just sarcasm.)

why, in my day, we had to use poker chips in tea cups with numbers on them 'cause we didn't have dice! and another thing.... (drifting away now).


nosig wrote:
Care Baird wrote:
I don't care what the Rules say - you can't do that at my table!

yep, not at my table!, you young coots and you new-fangled ideas are what's ruining my hobby! (ah... that was sarcasm people, just sarcasm.)

why, in my day, we had to use poker chips in tea cups with numbers on them 'cause we didn't have dice! and another thing.... (drifting away now).

Dude, they started selling D&D in a box with dice included for a reason :P

I don't see taking 10 as a game breaker; yes, you have to keep in mind the difference between house rules and organized play, but that's just how it is.

Also, don't rules-lawyer, and most especially, don't do it before gameplay starts; DMs and players alike hate that junk.

The Exchange 5/5

Hitdice wrote:
nosig wrote:
Care Baird wrote:
I don't care what the Rules say - you can't do that at my table!

yep, not at my table!, you young coots and you new-fangled ideas are what's ruining my hobby! (ah... that was sarcasm people, just sarcasm.)

why, in my day, we had to use poker chips in tea cups with numbers on them 'cause we didn't have dice! and another thing.... (drifting away now).

Dude, they started selling D&D in a box with dice included for a reason :P

I don't see taking 10 as a game breaker; yes, you have to keep in mind the difference between house rules and organized play, but that's just how it is.

Also, don't rules-lawyer, and most especially, don't do it before gameplay starts; DMs and players alike hate that junk.

Hitdice, did you miss the sarcasm note? my post above was a joke, kind of like saying "walked to school 5 miles each day, in the snow, up-hill both ways!"

Thou, ah... when I started D&D the rules came as three small 5"x8" books in a little white/brown cardstock box, that normally got squashed at some point. One person got a copy and we used the campus lib photo copier to run off others - so I'm not sure if the first box had dice in it (I seem to recall what we called bubble-gum d20s - which were soft impact plastic, in a bubble-gum pink and white that became little marbles over time). Oh, and (I thin) Thieves were in the first expansion book named "Blackmoor". Gods... I feel old now. sigh.

The Exchange 5/5

So your advice Hitdice is to NOT ask the DM how he rules on T10? you would rather I just discover it during play then? That way everyone gets to chime in with the way they think it should work, rather than just have the Judge tell me before the game starts? (Sorry, my Sarcasm switch is on. I'll go away now.).

5/5

I've been resisting this .. but failing my will save at this point

*checks the horse and kicks it for good measure*

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Given:

  • A) Time restraints of the sessions.
  • B)Take 10 represents a "normal" performance.
  • C) Take 10 doesn't affect anybody's fun if anything it speeds things up so we can squeeze in more fun.

    I don't see (other than the listed exceptions of combat, UMD, Day Job and if the scenario says so) why a player should be prevented from Taking 10 and having it take the same amount of time as if the dice were thrown.

  • Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/5 **

    Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    People keep saying that if the character has a reasonable chance of success, the player should be able to take 10. When I run, If there is a very good chance of success and it is not an opposed roll, I DON'T EVEN ASK FOR A ROLL. I only ask for rolls when the chance of failure means something.

    When I run higher level PFS, (8+) I usually don't even bother asking for spellcraft rolls for the magic items as the wizard's/ cleric's/ whoever's spellcraft is pumped high enough by that time that they probably will make it anyway.

    Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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    Chris Mortika wrote:

    I don't see "taking 10" as half-assed. (I would see "taking 0" as half-assed, not even trying.)

    Let's say taking 10 were the norm. Then rolling the die is the game mechanic for taking chances. It's going with your gut, rather than relying on your training. "I don't know if this will work..." If you're defusing a bomb, it's pulling on the red wire without checking to see if it's the primer or detonator first. If you're right, you've done a much better job defusing the bomb, maybe defusing a device much trickier than you're trained to handle, because you decide to roll the dice and you get lucky. If you're wrong ...

    If you're climbing a rope, rolling for the success is trying those techniques you've seen people better than yourself do, and maybe it works but maybe you slip and fall. Your friends tell you to quit clowning around. Taking 10 is following standard procedure. Whether you're allowed to do that or not shouldn't be based on how long the rope is, or how hard the fall hurts if you *do* screw up. But it makes sense to me that you can't use standard operating procedures in a situation they didn't cover, like when there's ogre children throwing rocks down at you from the ledge you're trying to reach.

    Chris, I could kiss you for this post! This is pretty much how I see it, and I'm glad someone else sees it too!

    People seem to think that rolling is the "default" or the "state of nature" and that T10 is something different you get to do under special circumstances. But I really think that T10 is the "state of nature" and it takes dangerous, focus-breaking circumstances force you to take the chances that rolling the dice represents.

    T10 is the norm, and it's only when something's so distracting that you can't think straight or have to seriously divide your attention that you have to roll instead.

    Liberty's Edge

    Bob Jonquet wrote:
    Honestly, I just do not understand the objection to some table variation. If we are talking about a clearly understood rule, that is one thing. If a GM, say, refused to allow you to spent your prestige points for services while in Absalom, that would be a clear violation of the rules. T10 is not the same thing. Sometimes, an event occurs that is not clearly defined by the rules. That is why we have a GM in the first place. Trust in their ability to make the good decision. We don't need every situation to be resolved within the printed rules. The more rules we have, the fewer opportunities we have for spontaneity, because the GM will just say no. I don't want my RPG to become a scripted, strict, cause and effect, MMO.

    I believe most PFS GMs will agree with this, ie More detailed rules = less freedom (= less fun) for the GM.

    However, less detailed rules means more conflict between GMs and players about some unclear (and not detailed) point of the rules, which also means less fun for both GMs and players as well as less time available to actually play the game.

    Pick your poison.

    Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    Well, count me among the PFS GMs who don't agree with "more detailed rules = less fun".

    Liberty's Edge 1/5

    Due to the wide variation of interpretation of the take-10/take-20 rules, I give my players a full list of my interpretation of every skill and it's take-10 and take-20, including time each action takes, if its more than an normal move or standard action with take-10 or take-20. I GM mostly Virtual Tabletop with regular players, so this is a lot easier manage than if I had a new group of people every time.

    The Exchange 5/5

    Shar Tahl wrote:
    Due to the wide variation of interpretation of the take-10/take-20 rules, I give my players a full list of my interpretation of every skill and it's take-10 and take-20, including time each action takes, if its more than an normal move or standard action with take-10 or take-20. I GM mostly Virtual Tabletop with regular players, so this is a lot easier manage than if I had a new group of people every time.

    Ok... but this just beggs the questions....

    What skills do you not allow T10 on?
    What skills take a different time to T10 than rolling?

    (I had promaced myself that I wouldn't type any more on this thread - as it just ends up badly in the end anyway).

    Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

    Shar Tahl wrote:
    Due to the wide variation of interpretation of the take-10/take-20 rules, I give my players a full list of my interpretation of every skill and it's take-10 and take-20,

    This seems like a good thing to do.

    Quote:
    including time each action takes, if its more than an normal move or standard action with take-10 or take-20.

    Whoa whoa whoa. This is not a detail where there should be any table variation. The rules are not unclear on how long these take - T20 always takes extra time because it's actually multiple checks, and T10 never takes extra time because it's just a normal check. To do otherwise in PFS is against the rules.

    The job of the PFS GM is (among other things) to adjudicate the parts of the rules that are unclear and to run the clear parts as written. If I'm GMing a PFS scenario and encounter a situation where the rules are fuzzy (or at least unknown and proving difficult to look up), it's my job to make a call and move on. But if I know the rule, then to do otherwise makes me a cheater, same as if a player brings in an un-errata'd Heirloom Weapon.

    It is also my responsibility to try to learn those rules which I don't already know.

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